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Risk of going beyond either/or…
This is article was first published in Fortnight magazine back in February 2003. Chris Farrington is now a Government of Ireland Postdoctoral Fellow funded by the Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences’ in the School of Politics and International Relations, University College Dublin. Although the circumstances it describes has changed radically and [...] read our review »
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What has The Third Man got to say about Northern Ireland?
Short answer: very little, other than he enjoyed the environs of Hillsborough Castle, enjoyed working with the local politicians, and has Gerry Adams to thank for Bobby his dog. Peter Mandelson’s book The Third Man has captured media headlines in recent weeks as the Times serialised the most juicy bits. But what did he have [...] read our review »
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Christopher Hitchens, 1949 – 2011
Writer Christopher Hitchens has died aged 62. He was as contrary as he was brilliant. Here is a brief In Memoriam from Vanity Fair (his outlet of choice since 1992) and, here, a longer tribute from his friend Christopher Buckley Stanley in The New Yorker. Better, perhaps, though to post one of Hitchens’ own writings in [...] read our review »
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jaysus i thought the bonfire season was over.. come on lads get yer life ok
meanwhile in portdown city center 3 catholics were attacked by a gang of brave loyalist thugs under the discret surveillance of the psni…
buongiorno irlanda!
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3056600.ece
Good post francesco
Portadown City Center?
Must be in America somewhere
And again
An Orange Hall attacked in Portadown (the 2nd such attack in the area in 24 hours)
Fair Deal @ 12:21 PM
The vast numbers of Orange Halls attacked in the past few years were catalogued in a monthly edition of “Warrior” a few months back. It was grim reading. The exact number escapes me, but it was definitely over 500, which is shocking!
Does anyone have the figures for the number of GAA Halls attacked in the same period? I don’t want the haters accusing me of just jumping on the bandwagon and writing from a one-eyed perspective…
The contributor rightly pointed out that what we were seeing was the Provies (and the other motley crews of republicanism) contining their “long war”, but instead of bombings and shootings they were attacking symbols of British culture, heritage and identity…
Has anyone ever been arrested and convicted for any of these shameful attacks?
francesco
I included that attack in Tuesday’s post.
Link 1
CL
I had a similar thread called Destruction of Orange Halls. It catalogued almost 250 arson attacks.
Link 2
This year’s attacks must be into the three figures by now.
Link 3
Joe
In 2006/7 the PSNI had a 16% clear-up rate of such attacks, up from 14% in the previous year (NB a clear up isn’t necessarily a conviction and the method of calculation has changed.) Also the PSNI generally has a very poor clear-up rate.
symbols of British culture, heritage and identity…
Orange halls are not symbols of british culture, heritage and identity…. they are symbols of Irish Protestant culture, heritage and identity…
CL
Rather odd that you are looking for burned GAA “halls” to balance the books.
Glasgow can boast a few Orange Halls and there may still be one in Liverpool, but “symbols of British culture, heritage and identity… “, that’s stretching it a bit, old boy. Mosques are a better bet.
Thats right Sean, patronise those who call themselves British, is that the ‘Ireland of equals’ mantra?
They are manifestations of Northern Irish/Irish Britishness.
They are manifestations of Northern Irish/Irish Britishness
Makes my head hurt thinking about it. Are you describing those recently discovered GAA halls?
Alright then Fair Deal lets do something about it, apparently the vandals are immune to the blogging offensive. My solution? Devolve the shit outta policing and justice and lets actually get these eejits locked up. Its getting pretty obvious the British direct rule minister doesn’t care about your British symbols, maybe we Irish will do a better job.
Troll Alert.
Hope no-one gets sucked in.
Brownlow to run the country:
Burn all churches, chapels, convents, kosher butchers and any other building that doesn’t conform to his/her modern utopian vision of progressiveness where everyone is exactly the same.
The OO for protestants should be ignited but don’t forget mass is only for Catholics, bar mitzvahs only for jews, mensa is only for very intelligent people
these are aimed at a particular group – the show intolerance and bigotted hatred by appealing to a specific group of people
to the cinders!
I’m having a little dinner party shortly and wondered if Sir Herbert and Brownlow wouldn’t like to pop along. You can share the one seat, something tells me it won’t be a problem.
TTP
1. I’ve said on here a number of times that the devolution of p and j isn’t a problem with me, although I am in the minority within the Unionist community on that.
2. I think you are seriously mistaken that it holds some easy solution. I haven’t heard any ideas coming from any of the local parties about practical measures how to address these issues nor too much rocking of the policing board boat about them. Lots of sympathy and calls for an end but few suggestions. What is the point of tougher sentencing options if such small numbers are put before the courts?
3. Policing and justice won’t be given to the “Irish”.
4. On arson issue, I previously made two suggestions, one to assist victims and the other to help pursue the culprits
Link
Anti-social behaviour approaches could maybe help too but their introduction here has been a mess/damp squib.
I think that if a certain commenter followed his belief through to its logical conclusion, he’d burn himself down.
Last comment on this thread.
Bye
The simple fact is the Orange Order cannot cope with anymore of these attacks. I have heard so many people tell me that the organisation is in decline so why is there a concentrated effort to burn down buildings that cost an absolute fortune to maintain and run.
Even on Slugger a board which is supposed to reflected ‘educated, tolerant and enlightened’ Nationalist/Republicans views we witness unadulterated bogotry. The second post seeked to deflect from the attacks to pursue a completely different topic while several other posts are a dirgrace and need to be moderated.
My question to our Nationalists/Republican bloggers is this, if the OO is in such decline why do you feel the need to accelerate and or support this trend. Should you not let it run its own course and in 2016 when the OO has disappeared you will be able to again claim the moral high ground.
How can a fire be “suspicious”? I thought only sentient beings could be that.
Maybe it was the Lawd regressing to his pillar-o’-fire mode.
I’m no fan of the OO, but I have family connections to the hall in question. This nonsense does nothing but highlight a lack of confidence in those who support violent republicanism. Are they not clever enough to win any verbal argument and do they have to resort to this pathetic behaviour? “Brownlow House Next” – aye right! Internet warriors are always the scariest type. Grow the fuck up, will you wee lad? To complain about others preaching hatred while coming out with that KKK type crap is nothing short of idiotic. Pot, kettle, pitch black. Live and let live. You don’t have to like everything in life but you will do yourself a huge favour if you learn to tolerate it. You will enjoy life more and probanly live a bit longer. As Obi Wan Kenobi said “Don’t give in to the hatred, and grow the fuck up wee lad”.
Why wont you accept tha it is not an organized concerted effprt of ‘republicnas” but most likely the ongoing actions of a bunch of under educated assinine national youth who are simply targeting objects of convenience?
Honestly despite your conjecture the the whole world is out to get you! the world has better things to do
Outsider: “The simple fact is the Orange Order cannot cope with anymore of these attacks. I have heard so many people tell me that the organisation is in decline so why is there a concentrated effort to burn down buildings that cost an absolute fortune to maintain and run. ”
Couple of possibilities…
A) If the organization is strapped for cash, then re-building and re-outfitting these structures will stretch them. In a conflict of attrition, a few gallons of petrol and a book of matches is far cheaper than a building.
B) For the conspiracy minded — when an organization that is strapped for cash starts having its buildings come down with a bad case of the burned, one wonders the status of their insurance.
Sean: “Why wont you accept tha it is not an organized concerted effprt of ‘republicnas†but most likely the ongoing actions of a bunch of under educated assinine national youth who are simply targeting objects of convenience? ”
Ah, yes… a faceless mass of geographical diverse youths who miraculously came up with the same notion to save them from the depths of their boredom?? C’mon, Sean, I’m a nationalist and I can’t buy that one… it doesn’t pass the smirk test.
B) Insurance premiuums for Ornage Halls are presumably worse than for 17 year olfd modified Corsa owners – NIO compensation is available of the PSNI as they and the IMC often do blame illegal organisations but never meets the total cost of rebuilding. In my 10 years legal career I have rarely been without a file for the rebuilding of an Orange Hall…
Dread
Whats so hard to believe?
Are you telling me that geographically diverse youth don’t do the same things? Be an awful lot of people interested in your fad free world especially reatilers
Yes I said fad. If youre say a dip shit teen ager living in a nationalist community and you hear about all the orange halls being burnt and there is one across the street, its never open except Sundays and 1 or 2 other nights. So you think to yourself(because you are a dipshit) that “wouldnt it be cool to see it burn” so you get a can of petrol and since its always been there you know where the best place to pour it in and light it up, you do it and if its big enough you join the crowd and watch it secure in the knowledge that you DID that. but whats worse you inspire the next dipshit because just like all those before you, you weren’t cught either
If this was a conspiracy the same faces would be in the crowd at every fire because arsonists can not resist the temptation to view their handy work.
That and most of these fires are amateur hour if it was a conspiracy it would have to be an extremely small one perhaps 5 people at most and you think with the amount of practice they have had they would be getting better at it! What happened the last fire? A small amount of seating and smoke damage that was not even discovered till the caretakers cam in? Doesnt sound very profesional or organized to me nor does it sound particularily effective!
If it was a larger conspiracy word would be on the street by now, even with 5 people word would have leaked likely. Thats why I say its a bunch of dipshit copy cats. Though I will allow that some of the fires may have been started by the same small group to call it a concerted effort of republicans is just playing to your persecution complex.
You live there you tell me, does any one considered a stranger especially a group of strangers arrive and leave with out being noticed in your communities? I think not! Whether republican or loyalist no one enters and leaves your communities with out every one noticing as no one is sure when the violence might come back and they wish to be prepared
Even I have had the pleasure of being interviewed by a couple of “off duty” soldiers in a pub in county Antrim subtle as they were they were the only soldiers I had ever seen in that bar in 2 months and called me over to talk to them though I did not know them and I certainly don’t appear to be military
Informed opinion however Sean which you are once again demonstrating on this thread you are certainly not accepts that this is orchestrated…
Informed opinion wants this to be orchestrated
Anyone know what happened to that IRA/Sinn fein member who fell off an Orange hall roof?
Sean: “Are you telling me that geographically diverse youth don’t do the same things? Be an awful lot of people interested in your fad free world especially reatilers ”
If you are seriously equating the acquiring of silly hats or cheap jewelry with the commission of felonies, Sean, I think it would be time to lay off the Republican kool-aid. You’re sounding a dram short of Jonestown punch.
Sean: “If this was a conspiracy the same faces would be in the crowd at every fire because arsonists can not resist the temptation to view their handy work. ”
Bollocks. All that is really needed for a conspiracy is A) a meeting of the minds and B) an act in furtherence of the conspiracy. As such, I need a few bad actors, preferrably charismatic, to identify the target. The dipshit youths, assuming your charitable scenario (although, how someone in their right mind equates felonies with a misguided teen fling… well, enough on that…) are simply the disposable tools.
Before you say it can’t happen, PETA / ALF use this shtick all the time. All it really takes is someone asking the moral equivalent of “Can no one rid me of this damned priest??” to someone inclined to do just that.
Sean: “That and most of these fires are amateur hour if it was a conspiracy it would have to be an extremely small one perhaps 5 people at most and you think with the amount of practice they have had they would be getting better at it!”
No, it doesn’t. All it takes are pliable mush-heads and a few bad actors to give them the idea. Ergo, it’s always amateur hour.
Sean: “You live there you tell me, does any one considered a stranger especially a group of strangers arrive and leave with out being noticed in your communities? I think not! Whether republican or loyalist no one enters and leaves your communities with out every one noticing as no one is sure when the violence might come back and they wish to be prepared ”
There are ways, Sean. Personally, I always favored the uniform and the white business van myself, complete with magnetic business signs. A white delivery van is damn near invisible and a uniform is remembered far more than a face.
But, in this wonderful age of Bebo, the Internet, etc., one doesn’t need to go somewhere to spread a bad notion.
Your sad neo-revolutionary “the violence could be back any day now” pose and ill-concealed pleasure at what you seek to dismiss as “childish antics” is… well, sad, really. Like one of Pavlov’s dogs, you sit their waiting for the bell.
Anyone know what happened to that IRA/Sinn fein member who fell off an Orange hall roof?
Ulster is my homeland
Nothing he wasnt deemed to be doing anything wrong and will soon be claiming compensation of the Orange Lodges whos roof he fell from.
“Great news. I hope it is burnt to the ground and beyond repair. Racist/sectarian organisations like the Orange Order have no place in progressive society and should be challenged at every opportunity.
Posted by Brownlow House Next on Oct 13, 2007 @ 06:09 PM”
You’d better be hoping the PSNI’s Internet Takforce aren’t watching. That comment is tantamount to promoting and inciting terrorism and racial and religious hatred…
Dread
you half agree with me but where as I say its a bunch of mush heads who are taking their lead from media reports you seem to think they are taking their lead from a shadowy cabal who slink throught the nether regions and whisper sweet nothings in the ears of the mush heads. And you think my theory is implausable? not only that but they are so organized that they are capable of launching an MI5 inspired campain of white vans and nondescript uniforms? now whos the conspiracy nut.
never the less a conspiracy requires mutual discretion, something not particularily a northern Irish strong point. Yes on both sides, I am not sectarian
concerned loyalist
you should be more concerned than him
Sean: “you half agree with me but where as I say its a bunch of mush heads who are taking their lead from media reports you seem to think they are taking their lead from a shadowy cabal who slink throught the nether regions and whisper sweet nothings in the ears of the mush heads.”
I acknowledge the possibility. And it doesn’t take a shadowy cabal… all it takes is someone to plant the seed and turn them loose. Like I said, the monkey-wrenching crowd does precisely that — a few charismatic “non-leaders” report things they find offensive and, miraculously, bad things happen to those things.
Frankly, I find your… naive notion that these fires spontaneously generate a trifle… optimistic.
Sean: “And you think my theory is implausable?”
It’s a stretch, at best. And, frankly, I find your effort to diminish the criminality of these deeds disturbing.
And, frankly, I find the fact that your words and distasteful position have me even vaguely on the same side of a discussion as Concerned Loyalist personally annoying.
Sean: “not only that but they are so organized that they are capable of launching an MI5 inspired campain of white vans and nondescript uniforms?”
Don’t be putting words in my mouth, son… you said it was difficult to get someone in and out of these neighborhoods unnoticed. I said it’s easy and presented one option, one that has the benefit of having worked in the past.
Sean: “never the less a conspiracy requires mutual discretion, something not particularily a northern Irish strong point.”
No, all it takes is a meeting of the minds and an act in furtherence of the conspiracy. Discretion is optional, but preferable to one’s cohorts.
When did i minimise the criminality
Stupidity might not criminal but stupidity in the furhterance of a crime is
Don’t be putting words in my mouth, son… you said it was difficult to get someone in and out of these neighborhoods unnoticed. I said it’s easy and presented one option, one that has the benefit of having worked in the past
if it was that successful how do you know it worked?
As per usual Sean you know so little of what you speak, these Orange Halls are in areas which are generally rural, its very easy to get in & out without being noticed.
But its typical of you to claim theres no conspiracy from the sections of the republican movement, you’d say anything that fits your blinkered wee worldview.
Sean: “if it was that successful how do you know it worked? ”
The benefits of a wide-ranging education. It’s the same principle as military camoflage — the more something looks like it belongs, the less likely it is to be noticed. What is more invisible that the utterly mundane? A working van, logo on the side, complete with a fella with his name on his shirt and the appropriate props. Done right and you blend right into the background. The mind pigeonholes who they see, be it plumber, delivery man, etc. The mind sees the role and disregards the rest.
Sean: “Stupidity might not criminal but stupidity in the furhterance of a crime is ”
Your repeated diminuation of these incendiary acts as “teen stupidity” is odious and smacks of tacit approval.
Cromwell
“you’d say anything that fits your blinkered wee worldview”
I don’t particularly agree with Sean’s view.
However, on reading the above comment from you, the words “pot” “kettle” and “black” somehow sprang to mind.
You accusing anyone of having a “blinkered wee worldview” is a classic.
Tut.. Tut.. Lads..
If every orange hall was set alight and destroyed beyound repair and the insurance companies refused to pay out..and ..then the orange order was outlawed etc. Orange Order meetings would still take place, in a different place?
I think that those who set fire to Orange halls are trying to get a reation and to date this has not happened and probably never will.
I reckon the blame lies fairly and squarely with a group of berserk evangelists who recognize these Orange halls for what they are: meeting places for sodomites and the depraved who wear aprons and engage in their “gay” orgies in secret.
I mean, look at the words of their homosexual “anthem” for chrissake:
Disgusting! Any man indeed. Burn the lot of them. Give them a foretaste of the hellfire that surely awaits them!:0(
When is Slugger going to take action against posts such as that from Dawkins.
I was suspended for a lot less.
Outsider,
I know I’m a sinner. I humbly apologize. Can you forgive me? I know Jesus can.
Aye Billy, funny the way I mention blinkered wee worldviews & you pop up, my sides they ache.
Hows that pony of yours anyway? You know the one that does the trick…..just one trick.
I still await a response from the moderators on some of the hate filled posts made within this thread, the silence is deafening.