‘Irish Out’ campaign reveals wider failure to grasp ‘new’ politics
So David McNarry’s attempt to out-do the DUP in terms of public contempt for the Irish language has come a cropper at the first hurdle, illustrating in the process to unionists and nationalists alike just why power-sharing mechanisms will be required at Stormont for a very long time to come. Yet, taken with the DUP’s pronouncements that the party will not support an Irish language Act, do the antics of McNarry illustrate a failure of some unionist politicians to grasp the quid pro quo consequences of the mutual veto era now upon us? Put simply, if unionists are to maintain the publicly stated position of being implacably opposed to such legislation, just what are they willing to sacrifice as a consequence?
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the unionist comments on this blog are incredible. it really is a case of croppy lie down for u people..how dare u support the banning of the Irish language – in Ireland!! This hatred of Irish culture comes from two sources. Firstly u feel it is a ‘threat’ to ur dominance in the north east of Ireland. And in some ways it is. Good! Secondly as unionists have no culture of their own u have no concept of how important culture is to those that have it, ie, us – the Irish. So ‘hill-billies’ go and bang ur drums in the hills and leave the normal people to ensure we get a United Ireland as soon as we can and an end to your pathetic bigotry.
Posted by conor on Oct 10, 2007 @ 03:41 PM
LOL, this from a guy soo bigotted he wont even recognise Northern Ireland and its national language, ENGLISH.
What is cultural about a dead language?
observer
northern Ireland is not a nation
It has no official language
therefore there is no national official language
AL IN BANGOR
In terms of number of speakers of any description it probably pales compared to french, spanish, german, polish etc all of which are probably a damn sight more useful to learn!
More false facts from the monoglots. As has been noted on many, many other threads, Irish is clearly the second most used language in NI.
Speakers of Chinese languages number about 8,000. There are around 30,000 Polish speakers. Not sure about French, Spanish or German but they would have a lot fewer fluent speakers here than even Mandarin.
According to the NI Life and Times survey about 17,000 people use Irish as their language of choice at home. On top of this are those who do not use the language on a daily basis but are still fluent speakers. Taking all recent data into account (NIL&TS, Millward Brown research, Census) it is thought that there are 40,000+ fluent Gaelic speakers in NI, with another 200,000 having some understanding of the language.
Conor tells me I have no culture.
What shall I do?
Do I need to go into therapy or where can I get some culture.
Should I embrace Europe, Asia or America or find some remote part of the world which has a unique culture.
Having lived many years perhaps I can do with out it especially if it makes me think like Conor.
No thanks Conor you keep your culture as it does not appeal to me.
The UUP and DUP members that spoke on BBC1 yesterday made some valid points. Ian Paisley Jnr in particular made some striking points. BUT I think Paisley made a freudian slip when asked about automatic translation being available in the Assembly when he said that that “would just increase amount of Irish spoken.”
The SF member that spoke yesterday demonstrated that SF use the language politically. She could barely pronounce a few words as Gaeilge. As the DUP member said, he has found documents in the Assembly explaining how to pronounce Irish words phonetically.
Sadly, the two extremes are to the fore on the issue in the North. All the while, the language and genuine lovers of the language suffer.
FD
Regarding negotiating over the heads of unionists: that works both ways too, as the DUP are finding out. Hence the internal wrangling over the leadership’s ‘minding’ to support a Stadium/ Long Kesk conflict transformation centre compromise. Certainly got Dodds worked up….
Apologies if someone else has already covered this, but has McNarry made public the ‘half-Irish’ letter he received from Ruane?
More false facts from the monoglots. As has been noted on many, many other threads, [b]Irish is clearly the second most used language in NI.[/b]
Speakers of Chinese languages number about 8,000. [b]There are around 30,000 Polish speakers.[/b] Not sure about French, Spanish or German but they would have a lot fewer fluent speakers here than even Mandarin.
According to the NI Life and Times survey [b]about 17,000 people use Irish as their language of choice at home[/b]
Posted by RG Cuan on Oct 10, 2007 @ 05:34 PM
Your words.
Very pleased and expected that this petty motion was defeated.
Same rights and respects as the Welsh enjoy is the only way.
SF are obviously entitled to use the Irish language and they are measured in its use, certainly on TV debates anyway. This is an island called Ireland after all.
The use should be extended to the roads, road signs, street names, goverment stationary etc etc
Sure were all equal now.
First of all comparing Wales to NI is foolish as Welsh is not seen as a divisive language is Wales.
Secondly if people want to learn how to speak the language that is fine but they should fund it themselves as others would have to do if they took up French classes etc in the evening. The taxpayer should not be expected to pay for this type of gimmick.
Finally concerned Loyalist you asked if I considered myself an Ulsterman and my answer to that is simply no. I never use Ulster in any context, I am Irish/British through and through, I am proud to be from NI and to be Irish and I am equally proud to be British I strongly identify with each.
First of all comparing Wales to NI is foolish as Welsh is not seen as a divisive language is Wales.
Yeah – only after 40 years of struggle
There is not the same problems in Wales as there in in NI regarding national identity etc.
The Shinners are appaling when it comes to promoting the language. The SF member that spoke yesterday demonstrated that. She could barely pronounce a few words as Gaeilge- and yet was the first SF speakers that spoke ar son na Gaeilge/for Irish. Pathetic.
“There is not the same problems in Wales as there in in NI regarding national identity etc.”
So?
That road is a zero sum game, where absolutely nothing gets funded.
Just taking issue with the title of this thread, its titled ‘Irish out’. I’m Irish and nowhere in the motion did any of the Unionists politicians proclaim Irish out, they simply said no Irish laguage within stormont etc.
Maybe Chris can edit his thread to something more appropriate unless a new title would only lessen the propaganda against Unionists.
“Just taking issue with the title of this thread, its titled ‘Irish out’. I’m Irish and nowhere in the motion did any of the Unionists politicians proclaim Irish out, they simply said no Irish laguage within stormont etc.”
It’s quite clear in the context that he’s referring to the language – and Unionists and quite clearly proposing “Irish Out”. Except they aren’t, because they knew it would have zero chance of passing the motion of concern. SO the entire move is relegated to sectarian shit stirring.
I don’t care for you using your Irishness to block the expression of mine. I know a little Irish, don’t want it to die and would like to see it accorded some respect, so that people can use it if they want to. Open to compromise on precise extent and costs. Find the right compromise, and I’ll be on your side rather than those who take the most extreme position. However, Unionism hasn’t offered or even suggested any of that. There is probably a lot it could do simply by repackaging or unifying current arrangements. It boils down, effectively, to pure unfettered sectarianism and if I was leading SF I’d bring the Assembly to a halt just to make the point it isn’t going to happen.
But then, I’m hotheaded like.
I’m delighted this silly motion got defeated. It’s really rather embarrassing to see full grown, elected representatives coming up with such waste of time and money nonsense with very murky motivation.
I’ve had great difficulty explaining to Aussies (where I am located) why they are so insulted by people simply speaking another lingo. Especially in Europe, a place so practiced at multi-lingualism.
Fair play to anyone who wishes to communicate to the people of the North, through the Assembly in any of the indigenous languages of the region. It harms no-one.
KENSEI
I await Unionists explaining they prefer the status quo when SF start killing their pet projects.
Well, at least that will be progress from the days of killing their neighbours and colleagues.
PICADOR
What ever happened to ‘British Rights for British Citizens’? Irish speakers must have the same rights as speakers of Welsh and Scottish Gallic.
And what rights do speakers of Scottish “Gallic†have? What is that, anyway? Some kind of Scots/French dialect?
Outsider,
First of all comparing Wales to NI is foolish as Welsh is not seen as a divisive language is Wales.
This just goes to show that the anti Irish B1gots on this thread will go to any length to misrepresent the facts in order to bolster their untenable position. That is to say they are arguing that citizens of this part of the UK are entitled to less rights, less respect for their culture, than citizens of other parts of the UK. And they call that unionism? Unionism has been shown to amount to nothing more than anti Irishness by the antics of David McNarry and co over the past several months (probably since the beginning of ‘NI’)
I agree with Kensei, some compromise should be reached. And I await with interest the proposals of more enlightened unionists than Outsider and his band of petty sectarians.
Outsider,
“First of all comparing Wales to NI is foolish as Welsh is not seen as a divisive language is Wales.”
And now for the truth… http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/celtic/22papers/phillips.pdf
OILIBHEAR
This just goes to show that the anti Irish B1gots on this thread will go to any length to misrepresent the facts in order to bolster their untenable position. That is to say they are arguing that citizens of this part of the UK are entitled to less [sic] rights, less respect for their culture, than citizens of other parts of the UK. And they call that unionism? Unionism has been shown to amount to nothing more than anti Irishness by the antics of David McNarry and co over the past several months (probably since the beginning of ‘NI’)
I have put the following point to you several times on various threads about this topic, but on each occasion you have ignored it. Nonetheless, I’ll try again.
What rights do speakers of Scots in Scotland, Gaelic in Scotland, or Cornish in England have that are in any way superior to speakers of Gaelic in Northern Ireland? (Same question with regard to “respect for their culture”.)
And perhaps you can explain why hitherto you have ignored this question. Perhaps it is because the answer disproves your assertion that Gaelic-speakers in NI have fewer rights than speakers of other indigenous languages in the rest of the UK (with the exception of Wales, which is the only part of the UK with significant numbers of first-language speakers).
Has there been a recent increase in douche bag trolls on Slugger or are there really that many unionists who are so uninformed when it comes to Irish?
Why does anyone respond to this “Outsider” clown. Assuming you aren’t a troll, you obviously don’t know what constitutes a dead language. Even in NI alone, Irish isn’t a dead language. But carry on, you’re a perfect spokesperson for the laughing stock that is Northern Ireland.
“Promotion of Irish is all well and good but it’ll forever be a sideshow in my opinion because English is just more practical and has, for the last few hundred years at the very least, been the language of these islands.”
Huh? What do you mean “the language of these islands”? A *few hundred* years at the *very least* is it? Do you have any idea how many Irish speakers there were in the 17th and 18th centuries? Or the first half of the 19th?
As far as Irish is concerned, “these islands” has nothing to do with it. It’s about one island. Ireland.
Willowfield, In Scotland for instance, the road signage in Gaeltacht areas is bilingual – that’s what I want in areas of NI which would have it. In Scotland there’s about to be established a Gaelic TV channel (digital), that’s what I want here. The list goes on – I would like for instance the ten most sought after publicly available official forms to be made available in Irish – hats off to the Electoral Office who recently made available a voter registration form in Irish – and nine other languages including Ulster Scots and simple English. Overall cost for the provision of the forms in TEN languages – £1,500.
But I disagree with you fundamentally about there being a supposed difference between Wales and NI, there’s a significant number of people in NI who speak Irish as their first language and there’s more again who would do so if there was more encouragement and support from the state to do so.
Unionists must set aside their anti Irish language/culture attitude to become full and functioning members of this new democratic entity.
One way to judge the survival of the language is to look at what is happening in the gaelteaght.
When children come out of school they speak to each to each other as Bearla and then go home to watch Eastenders and Coronation St with Mum and Dad.
The influence of British/American culture is irresistible.
“Well, at least that will be progress from the days of killing their neighbours and colleagues.”
0/10
Come back when you actually have an argument
Well thank goodness you’re here “ulsterfan” to educate us about the language.
But perhaps you should learn how to spell GAELTACHT correctly first.
Or Béarla.
The reality is that the majority of those who use Irish daily outside the education system come from the Galltacht. Do you know what the Galltacht is ulsterfan?
Perhaps a visit to a fÃor gaeltacht would do you some good. You could share your knowledge with all those pesky dead language speakers. Just be sure to arrive there before the Protestant baby eating ceremony. Oh, and the “Tiocfaidh ár lá Karaoke Dance”.
AL IN BANGOR
Read my post again. I did say that about 17,000 people use Irish as their language of choice at home but, as anybody will understand, this does not equal all fluent Irish speakers in NI. As i’ve already written, the overall figure is thought to be 40,000+.
Willowfield, In Scotland for instance, the road signage in Gaeltacht areas is bilingual – that’s what I want in areas of NI which would have it. In Scotland there’s about to be established a Gaelic TV channel (digital), that’s what I want here. The list goes on – I would like for instance the ten most sought after publicly available official forms to be made available in Irish … Overall cost for the provision of the forms in TEN languages – £1,500.
Road signage … is there a “right†to road signage? Anyway, the road signage is, of course, only displayed in “Gaeltacht areas†and, as you know, there are no such Gaeltacht areas in NI, which demonstrates a difference between Scotland and NI. The former has genuine Gaelic-speaking areas whereas NI does not. The language is spoken in Scotland by genuine Gaelic communities in identifiable regions of the country: in NI it is spoken (supposedly) by a scattering of activists who have learned the language anew and are scattered around the province.
But getting back to rights – tell us about the Gaelic Act in Scotland. Oh, sorry, it doesn’t exist, does it? There is no “right†in Scotland to correspond in Gaelic, to speak Gaelic in courts, etc. So you are telling lies when you say that the rights demanded by those campaigning for an Irish language Act are already enjoyed throughout the rest of the UK. Similarly, there are no such rights for Scots-speakers or for Cornish-speakers in England. Wales is the only part of the UK where such rights exist – Wales is the exception, not NI!
But I disagree with you fundamentally about there being a supposed difference between Wales and NI, there’s a significant number of people in NI who speak Irish as their first language and there’s more again who would do so if there was more encouragement and support from the state to do so.
Well, first, I note how you quickly moved the subject on from England and Scotland and back to Wales! You don’t like being reminded that your assertions about the UK as a whole are false, do you?
But – to indulge you – there are proportionately and absolutely far more Welsh-speakers in Wales, and genuine Welsh-speakers, too, who have been brought up speaking the language which has been handed down from generation to generation. In NI, there are no communities where Gaelic is the first language. There is no district in NI that you will walk into a pub or a shop and hear everyone speaking Gaelic (and I mean ordinary, community pubs and shops, where people naturally speak the language, not specifically-identified places apart from the rest of the community like the Culturllann).
RG Cuan – please stop quoting that 17,000 people use it at home. It comes from you extrapolating a 1% usuage figure in the Life & times survey up to the entire population. 1% is not a valid amount in such surveys as they tend to have a margin of error of a few percent either way. For example, in the same survey, the number speaking Irish at home in the youngest age bracket (18-24 iirc) is given at zero percent. So, you could argue that Irish has already died out as there are no more younger speakers. This is nonsense – I know of some myself. But it does your cause no good to quote stats that even someone on a blog can pick apart with ease.
In terms of the act itself. Yes, one is needed as Irish exists and needs some official local support/recognition. I would suggest that speaking Irish in the assembly and road signs are low priorities as these are divise and territorial pissing efforts that simply put peoples backs up and do not facilitate good communication – which is what the Assembly and road signs are supposed to be about. Instead the act should focus on developing the Gaelic quarter and making the language mandatory in state schools. It should also attempt to frame it in a Northern Irish context – there are aspects of the language unique to Northern Ireland – which would make it far more palatable to unionists.
willowfield,
There were Gaeltachtaà in Northern Ireland when it came into being. Why do you think they eventually disappeared? Since there were areas where Irish Gaelic was the main language and included people: “who have [had] been brought up speaking the language which has been handed down from generation to generation.” should they have been allowed to correspond in Irish with the State or use it in the Courts etc?
“….and making the language mandatory in state schools”
Very good idea DK.
Dan
I dont think I will go to your gaeltacht if you are still practicising such devilish acts.
I was only commenting on a report in Irish Times some months ago.
My Irish is very poor as I suffered from learning it for 6 years which says more about the Leaving Cert than my stupidity.
DK,
 .and making the language mandatory in state schoolsâ€
Are you serious? Why would you possibly want that? It would mean serious civil disorder and would undoubtedly lead to the deaths of innocent people and would force the language completely underground.
Gaelgannaire – do you really think do ? Is it really that offensive to some ?
Dewi,
Read the threads, and on Slugger are generally more moderate types.
I think even suggesting that we should seek mandatory Irish in schools even on line fuels fear. Fear > Anger > Hate > Dead people.
DK
What figures then would you provide? The census is not accurate enough on linguistic questions and combining information from other surveys does help to provide an idea of the bigger picture. 17,000 isn’t far off the mark in my opinion.
Making Irish Gaelic an optional subject in state schools is the way forward. It is already mandatory for first to third year students in most Catholic schools.
CD
“Regarding negotiating over the heads of unionists: that works both ways too, as the DUP are finding out. Hence the internal wrangling over the leadership’s ‘minding’ to support a Stadium/ Long Kesk conflict transformation centre compromise.”
Other than a stretch to have a jibe at the DUP over the Maze what exactly is the point of that statement? The CSR will easily overcome many a mind.
And my other point?
willowfield,
‘But getting back to rights – tell us about the Gaelic Act in Scotland. Oh, sorry, it doesn’t exist, does it?’
Erm, while I don’t think the Scottish and NI language situation are exactly comparable, due to the politicisation of Irish by Sinn Fein, there is a Scottish Gaelic Act (which looks pretty similar to the putative ILA):
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2005/asp_20050007_en.pdf
Re roadsigns and Gaeltachts, there are no Gaeltachts in Scotland outside the Outer Hebrides IMO; it hasn’t stopped bilingual signs springing up on the mainland, initially in the far north but spreading steadily south. As an indication of how haphazard and ill thought out it is, here is a certain irony in seeing Old Norse placenames in Caithness being ‘gaelicised’ for roadsigns…
Suilven – the Scottish Act doesn’t provide any rights to Gaelic-speakers as Oilibhear is claiming – just a duty on (some) public bodies to promote Gaelic in unspecified ways. Oilibhear wants statutory rights in an Irish language act – quite different.
Suilven,
‘here is a certain irony in seeing Old Norse placenames in Caithness being ‘gaelicised’ for roadsigns… ‘
For example?
Would be a LOT more useful for our kids to start learning the likes of french or german at age 4 alongside their native english (and yes i state english because next to NO ONE in the scheme of things speaks irish)
As I previously mentioned I learnt irish for a year in school which did me little good really but I don’t agree it should be mandatory just for the sake of fostering some fake sense of “irishness” in the population. Get back to reality people and try to teach kids something that will actually be useful for them in the wider world. Teach irish by all means but don’t make some great crusade. It should be way down the list of priorities in terms of which languages get instructed.
Suilven,
“haphazard and ill thought out”
I think not.
http://www.gaelicplacenames.org/
perhaps this will help you with the Gaelic and Gaelic / Norse names …
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/gaelic/vl-trans.htm
“no Gaeltachts on the mainland’
again maybe this will help you out …
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/gaelic/vl-trans.htm
BTW, bilingual signs in Scotland don’t spring up, they are hard fought for and don’t appearr where the people don’t want them … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_road_signs_in_Scotland.
Alba go brath.
SUILVEN
due to the politicisation of Irish by Sinn Féin
It’s not only SF who have politicised Gaelic. That process started many hundred years before the party existed and continues today with anti-Irish statements from the DUP and UUP.
there is a certain irony in seeing Old Norse placenames in Caithness being ‘gaelicised’ for roadsigns
As a speaker of both Scottish and Irish Gaelic I can say that the Gaelic versions of placenames in Caithness have been in use for hundreds of years – they didn’t just appear overnight for roadsigns.
I suppose you don’t think twice about the anglicised Norse and Gaelic placenames in the same area?
Gaelgannaire,
Will address your other points in subsequent posts, but ‘for example’ I give you Dingwall, derived from the Scandinavian Thingvöllr =
Inbhir Pheofharain ?!
“no Gaeltachts in Scotland outside the Outer Hebrides IMO”……..sorry pedantic I know but Skye (inner Hebrides) still pretty strong.
Gaelgannaire – I just wonder if the huge resitance is contained within the chattering Unionist classes only but accept mine is a minority view. What I don’t like is the idea of a patchwork approach to bilingual signs in Gaelic supporting areas only.
Suilven,
Dingwall / Inbhir Pheofharain.
The English name means “court field” and is from Norse.
The Gaelic name is Inbhir Pheofharain “mouth of the Peffer”.
They are different names for the same place, both hundreds of years old, I don’t know which came first. They haven’t Gaelisised it any time recently anyway.
What is the problem? are the signs in Dingwall or in on the roads approaching, which do go through traditionally Gaelic speaking areas, even if the language has waned in east Sutherland for example.
Dewi,
Of course, I accept your view and welcome it.
I don’t agree with your points on signage. At the end of the day I campaign for bilingual signage for my own area.
Its a pretty simple system
If you want tourists and there deep pockets of money give them a little kitsch
Particularily americans who can go back and dazzle their friends by telling them they were Doire and Biel fierste(sorry about the spelling trying to go off memory). I mean honestly do you think an american would rather tell her friends that she was in derry when she can say she was in Doire. Bullshit sells and it sells at a premium
The point was well made by Stephen Farry, hardly an ardent Gaeilgeoir, that the only parties politicising the Irish language and using it as a weapon are the Unionist parties.
I see Willowfield is anxious to play down the anti Union effect of the unionists’ position on the Irish language. He seems to think it’s ok for Union citizens in the North of Ireland to have less rights than Union citizens in other parts of the UK. Isn’t that odd? Where will it stop? Or is it just Irish speakers he’s anxious to have less rights than other communities in the UK?
Signage is not so much a right but an expression of respect for our culture, which, according to the United Nations Universal Charter, is our entitlement.
RG Cuan/Gaelgannaire,
I accept perhaps gaelicisation was the wrong word for the phenomenon – however I do think there can be a problem with bilingual signage fulfilling their primary function – direction finding – where placenames are very different in the two languages. Bilingual signs do raise an expectation that the place is equally well known by both names – which is rarely the case.
To go back to my earlier example – I pity the poor foreign tourist looking for directions to “Inbhir Pheofharain”. Unless he/she’s lucky enough to bump into one of Easter Ross’s 3.5% of Gaelic speakers, the best they’ll get is a shrug of the shoulders, or perhaps if they don’t mangle the pronunciation too badly, they’ll get sent to Strathpeffer a few miles up the road.
I’m hardly the first to point this out:
http://news.scotsman.com/inverness.cfm?id=229442005
Suilven,
Why would a tourist be looking for Inbhir Pheofharain? surely they would normally be looking for Dingwall. Besides the Gaelic form will be known beyond those who are Gaelic speakers, helped of course by bilingual signage.
I think we must move away from the thought that signage is primarily there to serve tourists anyway. Locals also has entitlements.
Aside from some people in Inverness most highland people are pro-biligual signs – they are not forced on them.
As to the article, well there are anti-Gaelic people in Ireland, Scotland and Mann. Academic study has proven their point to be rubbish. Time will tell if they taste final victory. I hope their day will never come.