“a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy..”
So Mary Lou McDonald, MEP, is launching a week of events organised by Sinn Féin to commemorate the death of Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara. And the Northern Ireland Executive junior minister, and former bomber, Gerry Kelly, MLA, is to attend the last event – the Deputy First minister is obviously unavailable. But why exactly? We know that Gerry Adams is a fan of the middle-class would-be permanent revolutionary. But is it still chic to worship Che in Sinn Féin in this new ‘indigenous’ deal? [Ógra Shinn Fein I could understand - Ed] Or just a ‘loved the movie’ moment? Or just another example of a party with a Cuba fixation? Or perhaps it’s a nod to Guevara’s call to arms in his last published article in 1967
“Our mission, in the first hour, shall be to survive; later, we shall follow the perennial example of the guerrilla, carrying out armed propaganda (in the Vietnamese sense, that is, the bullets of propaganda, of the battles won or lost — but fought — against the enemy). The great lesson of the invincibility of the guerrillas taking root in the dispossessed masses. The galvanizing of the national spirit, the preparation for harder tasks, for resisting even more violent repressions. Hatred as an element of the struggle; a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us over and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to and transforming him into an effective, violent, selective and cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy. “
Adds Frank at the Cedar Lounge wonders whether “it’s time Gerry Adams donned a beret and fatigues again”Adds again I’ll just add these lines from Guevara’s last published article, which follow on from the quoted paragraph above.
“We must carry the war into every corner the enemy happens to carry it: to his home, to his centers of entertainment; a total war. It is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be; make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move. Then his moral fiber shall begin to decline. He will even become more beastly, but we shall notice how the signs of decadence begin to appear.”
snakebrain,
Mind?! I’m flattered. I threw it together just now with stuff harvested from the net. Maybe if I’ve time and inclination I’ll do a proper one :0)
Pratically none of the actions of the IRA were those of an army. In addition as even republicans like Garibaldy have pointed out the discrimination (I have no doubt real) which was used to jsutify these actions had already stopped when the overwhelming majority were committed. It just was not some heoric set of actions it was a murder campaign and a sectarian one.
Wise up son if the IRA had formed up and started a pitched battle the british would have wiped them out thi their airforce alone only a complete ass would have even considered such a stupid war
It was an asymetrical war because the two opposing forces were asymetrically armed. If the IRA had helicopter gunships and APC’s i believe they would have given you the traditional war you seem to crave. But they are not stupid they chose targets of conveniance and opportunity. That is the nature of guerilla war fare. Every time the NVA formed up and fought the US Army in Vietnam they clearly had their asses handed to them but by fighting their war their way they threw the americans out with ignominy and shame.
The IRA might never have achieved that level of success they did not allow nor suffer the kind of carnage that afflicted Vietnam. And ultimately their goals are being achieved, though not in the way they envisaged.
And you can say what you want but nobody in nIreland was as succesful at targetting their violence as the IRA. Even the security forces with all their “inteligence” killed more civilians then combatants. They were more terrorists then the terrorists they were supposedly targeting
Pretty good job then. Glad to see you’re continuing the copyright-free tradition..
Turgon,
whataboutery like kingsmill doesn’t wash, its taken out of context and its dishonest and dishonorable to the memory of those victims to try to score cheap political points. You are better than that.
garibaldy yes, republicans are anti-sectarian rather than non-sectarian I stand corrected.
I can’t break up the conflict like you want to into discrete steps, too many factors influenced the beginning and the end of armed conflict.
sean, I think you would have had the courage, you’re a brave fighter. Hope you can help win the peace also
snakebrain
some of your people are becoming more human, that’s nice to see,so there’s no contradiction.
But you need to do a lot more work to change yourselves.
peteb
When a whole people diminishes another, they diminish themselves. Superiority is the poison.
I know you’re working very hard to change, so good luck with your programme
Dawkins
Get out the silk screen i see a good second income stream in your future
except i think thats latin and irish would be better
Sean
The arguments you’re repeating are those of SF and others within the orthodox republican movement. That doesn’t make them any more valid. Of course the IRA tried to find justifications for what was, from the outside, obviously a bitter sectarian murder campaign. The attempt to excuse their crimes on grounds of martial law was, and is, pathetic.
You say that ultimately their goals are being achieved, though not in the way they envisaged.
There are two things to say about that.
Firstly, the IRA and republican movement do not own exclusive rights on Nationalist or, as Garibaldy demonstrates, Republican aspirations. The IRA took a position that was popularly held in NI at the time, and corrupted it into a creed of war and destruction that did untold damage to this country. To those of us who had to live through he horror, and the fear, and the paranoia, and the suspicion, the IRA campaign was a travesty that all but destroyed the legitimate aspirations of the Catholic and Nationalist people of the region.
The second point to be drawn from that statement is something that Garibaldy has already touched on. Before the IRA’s armed campaign got underrway, NICRA had made great progress in furthering the Nationalist position. There was a growing momentum towards change that was leading inevitably towards a peaceful, and infinitely more rapid, conclusion of the situation by democratic, constitutional means. There was never any need for a single life to be lost, and certainly none for the wholesale murder and chaos that was visited on the population of NI, and that ultimately led to the polarisation of communities in Belfast, and created huge obstacles to the process of reintegrating of those communities that is now belatedly beginning.
The IRA, and all other paramilitary campaigns, were a disaster for this country. The glamourisation and repackaging of the IRA campaign as a propaganda exercise is a sickening travesty, and every person, like you, who repeats those arguments is a part of that.
“snakebrain
some of your people are becoming more human, that’s nice to see,so there’s no contradiction.
But you need to do a lot more work to change yourselves.”
You know, that really just demonstrates your sectarian prejudice. I’m a Catholic and a Nationalist. I come from a background where my family has worked incessantly throughout the worst of this country’s history for Nationalist causes, though never in any way other than constitutionally and peacefully. You’d know my name instantly if I were to tell you it.
And because I don’t buy into the SF orthodoxy and unquestioningly swallow every line they spin, you assumed I was one of those sub-human Loyalists.
You just showed yourself right up mate.
Prior to leaving Ireland, I used to dine occasionally at La Mon, about twice per year (it was a tad expensive for me).Usually on a Saturday night too.
Shure, I wouldn’t have minded being blown to bits or burnt to a cinder as long as it was in the cause of delivering Irish unity.
Jesus wept.
Snakebrain
I would never denigrate the great work of NICRA but their advances died on the streets of Derry along with 14 kids shot in the back by the british establishment. They mad great advancements and under extreme duress but if you honestly believe the nationalist community would have advanced as far as they have due to their actions I respectively disagree. The protestant parliament for a prostetant people never had any ntention of elevating the taigs to equality and all the advancements were just new drapes on an old pig sty.
To this day and age would the nationalists be advanced to where they are? Possibly but their would have been hundreds more Bombay Streets and countless dead nationalists than their already are.
Paisley is proof of what I say and any one who is honest with themselves will know the truth. Just the way that the Klu Klux Klan murdered hundreds of blacks and Hitler murdered millions of untermenchen, the orange order criminals would have continued murdering taigs with out any remorse.
So come on here and call me a liar, Its the truth for the first 70 years and would have been the truth for ever into the future if the orange criminals had their way.
As for sectarianism, that is the proviso of the orange, republicanism as practiced by Sinn fein and the IRA has always been secular. While their targets might have been primarily protestants that is only becuse the protestants were primarily in power. It was sleaze like the UDA that targetted easy targets based only on what they percieved their religion to be. How many protestants died at the hands of the alphabet killers because they mistakenly identified them as Catholics?
Turgon you have your perspective I have mine but as yours was taught to you by your sectarian progenitors mine was gleaned form a neutral perspective and amazingly enough most of the world outside of the UK and Ireland agree with me I will assume the correctness of my beliefs
With respect Sean, I don’t think that there would have been large-scale killing of the type you describe had the NICRA movement developed further. It’s an impossible question to answer, but I strongly feel that it would have been a much smoother path than the alternative we traveled in reality.
I appreciate that your perspective from outside NI gives you a detachment that might enable a clearer view. But I also feel that if you’d been here, picking up the pieces after one of the IRAs attacks, you’d find it much harder to justify the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. Equally, if you’d had to console a family who’d lost their father, or a father who’d lost his daughter, or a carpenter who’d lost his hands, I think you’d find it much more difficult to defend the Machiavellian position on this one.
The Troubles were a terrible time for all but a very few in NI, and from a perspective outside NI, it’s very easy to forget that.
*You don’t think post-colonial interference, economic protectionism and cold war games being played out across the African theatre had anything to do with it Harry?*
You don’t think there was post-colonial interference, economic protectionism and cold war game playing going on in Asia do you? Yet funnily enough the Asians seem to have been able to build successful societies. It’s time to end the western guilt trip about Africa and honestly apportion blame for the disaster that is sub-Saharan Africa on to those who are guilty – the corrupt African governments (usually Marxist) who screwed up.
Enough with whitey’s guilt trip.
*Should the Cubans under the Batista regime have just waited until he died off? I don’t believe so.*
They don’t appear to mind waiting for the jurassic Castros to shuffle off their mortal coil.
*Your description of Venezuela is so far off the mark as to be caricature. And so are you saying you supported the coup against the democratically elected president?*
I am painting a picture of Venezuela’s future. Or perhaps you believe that a Latin American generalissimo, (not averse to coups of his own by the way or had you forgotten?) who starts to “nationalise” (ie steal) private property, bans opposition politicians, shuts down opposition tv stations and appoints himself el presidente for life is actually laying the groundwork for a liberal, multi-party, democratic, free society?
You poor deluded fool.
I think that represents the victory of certainty over sentience Harry
parci,
“whataboutery like kingsmill doesn’t wash, its taken out of context ”
Ah whataboutery. That is the chorus we always hear. If you want to support the IRA campaign of murder you cannot ignore Kingsmill, Enniskillen etc. You cannot celebrate those murders you like and ignore the others. Even if you wish to justify the murder of policmen in front of their families you cannot conveniently ignore all the other murders that even you would struggle to call non sectarian. They were part and parcel of the IRA campaign. This is not political points scoring this is pointing out that once you start down this immoral road that is what you are celebrating. You are glorying in the deaths of all those people. You are the one saying that the Kingsmill and Enniskillen murders were a great idea and that killing a shop keeper because he was a Protestant was a great idea.
Sean,
This is not “my perspective”. These are facts. The fact is that at Enniskillen the IRA murdered lots of people. The fact is that at Kingsmill the IRA singled out protestants for murder. The fact is that the IRA shot policemen in the back or infront of their families or blew their cars up. These are the facts of their “war” and to try to portray it as some sort of “asymmetric conflict” is simply a lie we have heard so many times before. Their targets of convience were the family and friends of many of us. Enniskillen was as you state a target of convience. A convience which was that of the morally bankrupt sectarian killers who reckoned on killing a lot of Prods that day. Support, celebrate and glory in these people if you wish but understand the moral level to which you lower yourself by so doing.
Seamos realistas y hagamos lo imposible” ERNESTO GUEVARA
Harry,
Maybe that’s because the Castro regime is nothing like that of Batista.
On Chavez, I am aware that he tried a coup. I am also aware that he paid the price for it, and returned commited to democratic politics. And that everything he has done, he has done legally and constitutionally. Will he end up appointing himself President for life? I don’t think so. Will he stand repeatedly for election, and win for the foreseeable future? Yes.
I’m just waiting for the accusations to start flying about weapons of mass destruction. He is re-arming the country. But then gee it’s hardly like he’s recently had to fight off a coup sponsored by the global hyperpower, which has itself recently been on an orgy of invasions of countries it doesn’t like. And lining up for another one.
Parci,
So you can’t say when violence was no longer a good idea. Fair enough. Perhaps you can explain how you reconcile referring to 20% of Irish people as “your people” while claiming to be a republican. Because that strikes me as a two-nationist position.
Sean,
If republicanism as practiced by the Provos has been secular, perhaps you can explain the Catholic prayers at commemorations? That issue was the cause of one of the early splits in the late 1960s.
As for the targetting of easy civilians etc. Are you aware of what happened during the 1975 Provo ceasefire? Sectarian murders increased dramatically, many of them carried out by the Provos. And where are a large number of the people involved now? In leadership positions.
But regardless of past murders, let’s look at the politics practiced by the Provos. Perhaps you can explain the repeated rhetoric that identifies Catholics, nationalists and republicans as the same thing? And square that with the secular, unitary republican vision found in Tone and the 1916 Proclamation?
*Maybe that’s because the Castro regime is nothing like that of Batista.*
You’re right there, it’s a hundred times worse, just ask the millions of refugees and boat people so desperate to escape it they climb on to inner tubes and old fridges and flee into the sea to escape it.
That never happened with the Batista regime, which tells you all you need to know about life under the Castro clan.
Care to bet on the outcome of Venezuela? I say in ten years time it’s a one man thugocracy continually whipping up the populace with mass hysteria about a mythical invasion by the Yanquis and jailing or expelling any opposition while you say it will be a peaceful tolerant multi-party democracy with a free press and fair elections, how much do you want to wager?
Oh wait, he’s already abolished the free press and he’s working on the elections, looks like that’s a beaten docket before we even start.
Chavez is a dictator in waiting.
I admired him when he first came to power, believing, like he himself probably did, that he did have the interests of the people in his heart.
Now he is just like any old tyrant, he is mentally ill, having succumbed to the fantasy that he is infallible and only he is the path to paradise on earth.
His paranoia grows daily and his sucking up to other would-be monsters like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is sickening.
Hopefully his fellow countrymen will realise this and dump him (not murder) before he takes all their liberties away.
I never understood the Che cult. The depiction of Che as latter-day saint in the Motorcycle Diaries doesn’t square with the facts. How would Irish lefties cope with Che as a gay-bashing homophobe, I wonder? Here’s a quote from the introduction to Cold Tales, a collection of stories by the great Cuban writer, Virgilio Pinera:
‘He (Pinera) was arrested in the early morning of October 11th 1961 in his beach cottage,…and was imprisoned not for being an anarchist but for being a pederast….
Then came a culmination of sorts in 1964, when Che Guevara examined the small library in the Cuban embassy in Algiers, selected Virgilio’s Teatro Completo and hurled the volume against the nearest wall as he shouted at the ambassador, “How dare you have in your embassy a book by this foul faggot!” …From that moment on he was a condemned man…he died of a heart attack. I’m afraid that fear killed him. He was not paranoid but he lived in Paranoia, a police state.’
Long live the revolution!
Well, Guevara wouldn’t be the first repressed homosexual to publicly rant against that, would he?
As is clear from many of the posts here, the likes of Turgon, Garabaldi and co are never going to accept that the unionist regime in NI ever did wrong and that the violence which begat the Troubles actually came from the policemen described in such glowing and heroic terms by Turgon. Neo nazis also try to deny the Holocaust.
As is clear from Oilibhear’s post here, he is never going to accept that the PIRA ever did wrong and that the murders and violence which they inflicted were totally unjustified. Neo nazis also try to justify the Nazi regime.
Posted by Harry Flashman on Oct 09, 2007 @ 02:00 AM
– Applause to that man. Superb. Agree wholeheartedly
Oilibhear is obiviously only the latest repubulican to be oppressed by that devious Brit securocrat-inspired instrument of state oppression..er..Godwin’s law.
Oops
I could have sworn that I’ve repeatedly condemned discrimination by the Stormont regime. In fact I was the one who brought up Bombay Street. But apparently saying that NICRA was more effective than terrorism, and that the Provos practice sectarian politics means I think that the Unionist monolith did no wrong.
Apparently following the dictum of Tone to achieve an independent Ireland through the unity of the people makes me anti-republican.
OC, perhaps you might like to think a bit more carefully about what I was saying.
‘middle-class would-be permanent revolutionary’
Is there something remarkable about being a middle-class revolutionary, Pete, or do you like your revolutionaries with flat cap and whippet?
As for hating the enemy, surely that’s what you’re supposed to do with enemies? I can’t see any reason for loving the Gestapo.
OILibhear Chromail,
“policemen described in such glowing and heroic terms by Turgon”
On this thread I described policemen in no terms at all. I described them being killed in front of their families and whilst directing traffic. Those events indeed occurred. It is a statement of a fact not a value judgement of their actions.
Your problem is that you find it difficult to accept that most policemen like most people murdered by those for whom you seem to want to cheerlead were killed whilst doing tediously normal things like they would in any other society. To justify your narrative the policmen and soldiers need to have been killed in combat with the IRA. The reality is the IRA hardly ever had the courage to attack anyones unless it was behind their back or they could not defend themselves.
The other cheerleaders have not managed an answer so I will try you. Explian how Marie Wilson and Douglas Derring were oppressing the nationalist people. I guess Derring might have sold RC children sweets, was that what made him a “legimate target”?
Paisley is proof of what I say and any one who is honest with themselves will know the truth. Just the way that the Klu Klux Klan murdered hundreds of blacks and Hitler murdered millions of untermenchen, the orange order criminals would have continued murdering taigs with out any remorse.
– Sean
So Paisley, the KKK, Hitler are all examples of terrible organisations/people in your eyes but when the IRA stoops to trying to exterminate people it’s a heroic venture?
Catch yourself on
Turgon
your position is lost, because you have put words into my mouth that I have not said.
parci,
No the problem is you said whataboutery does not wash. The problem is that the events you choose to minimise as “whataboutery” sum to a considerable percentage of all the murders the IRA committed. You cannot divorce the murders you feel are justified from thise which are not.
Just a brief few:-
Jean McConville
Enniskillen
Douglas Derring
Kingsmill
Darkley
LeMon
Drop Inn Well
Shankill Fish shop
Teebane
The Australian tourists in Europe
Various retired police officers and UDR members
The list could, as you well know go on and on. You choose to call it whataboutery decent people call it a sectarian murder campaign. Let us hear the justification for Derring’s murder or Enniskillen.
Turgon
Let us hear your explanation of
Bloody Sunday
Miami Show Band
Bombay Street
Romper Rooms
Dublin Bombings
Pat Finucane
Rosemary Nelson
Collusion
Drumcree
Sean Grahams
Those were all decent people murdered by scum some in uniforms some not in a heinous orchestrated bout of sectarianism and state collusion
If you want to play what aboutery theres lots to go around
Parci and Sean,
Instead of whataboutey, let’s play define how tribal politics is actually genuine republicanism. Or, why seeing unionists as “your people” and fundamentally different that other Irish people is actually what 1916 was all about.
Sean,
It is very simple. Murder is wrong. I have absolutely no problem with that
I can add a few more if you wish, Rising Sun, Castlerock, Loughinisland. I have absolutely no problem condemning murder. I have no problem condemning any collusion which occurred.
I will also point out as I have done before that I gain absolutely no pleasure from anyone’s death. If I had it in my power to bring all the dead back and in exchange I would have had to have lived in a united Ireland I would have agreed to it.
Let us hear your explanation of
Bloody Sunday
Miami Show Band
Bombay Street
Romper Rooms
Dublin Bombings
Pat Finucane
Rosemary Nelson
Collusion
Drumcree
Sean Grahams
Those were all decent people murdered by scum some in uniforms some not in a heinous orchestrated bout of sectarianism and state collusion
If you want to play what aboutery theres lots to go around
Posted by Sean on Oct 09, 2007 @ 02:16 PM
– Looks aimed at a more unionist poster. I think you’ll find most unionists and possibly even loyalists will have no hassle in agreeing with you that such events should never have taken place. That said, it’s a crying shame a substantial amount of the catholic/nationalist/republican population out there feel obliged and vindicated to vote for the likes of Adams, Kelly and co each time there is an election.
Makes the “we’re the victims” speel a lot of people from that persuasion come out with seem quite hollow.
No garibaldy you’ve got it wrong – 1916 and ever since has been about Irish nationalists seperating *themselves* from their natural position as part of the UK. We dont see ourselves as being different to our fellow Irish *you* do.
Mnob,
I was questioning the position of people who regard Ireland as one nation but insist on seeing unionists as a different people. I agree with you that there is a natural affinity on the island between all its people, north and south.
Where you and I differ is whether the people of Ireland are linked to Britain.
al: “– Looks aimed at a more unionist poster. I think you’ll find most unionists and possibly even loyalists will have no hassle in agreeing with you that such events should never have taken place.”
Ah, yes… the prim and proper “it shouldn’t have happened.” So much like Pilate washing his hands… so empty a gesture as to be less than nothing.
The catch is that saying something is wrong with years of experience and 20/20 hindsight is easy. How many were willing to stand up in the moment, with the stink of blood, burnt flesh and shit fresh in the streets, and do the same?
The first drop of blood, the first bruise, engenders and sanctifies not merely equal response, but greater retaliation — human nature and history support this — the most natural response is to strike back at your tormenters. If you doubt me, slap a pacifist and see what happens.
Civilization, after all, is still something of a fad… unless you honestly believe the world is only 6000 some-odd years old.
al: “That said, it’s a crying shame a substantial amount of the catholic/nationalist/republican population out there feel obliged and vindicated to vote for the likes of Adams, Kelly and co each time there is an election. ”
As opposed to the number of Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist population out there who feel comfortable with the collusion, state sponsored terrorism and vote for the likes of Paisley and his mob of demagogues and sectarian baiters, each time there is an election, al?
The whole ugly comedy does go both ways.
Al
as an outsider I am in no way able to speak authoratively on the subject but I am guessing they feel vindicated voting for Adams et al because they actually went out and did something about improving the lives of nationalists in nIreland instead of standing around wringing their hands and crying oh dear over their mugs of tea
Al
as an outsider I am in no way able to speak authoratively on the subject but I am guessing they feel vindicated voting for Adams et al because they actually went out and did something about improving the lives of nationalists in nIreland instead of standing around wringing their hands and crying oh dear over their mugs of tea
Posted by Sean on Oct 09, 2007 @ 04:25 PM
But look at what they did Sean.
Sean: “as an outsider I am in no way able to speak authoratively on the subject but I am guessing they feel vindicated voting for Adams et al because they actually went out and did something about improving the lives of nationalists in nIreland instead of standing around wringing their hands and crying oh dear over their mugs of tea ”
You’re right… you are in no way able to speak authoritatively, Sean.
Arguably, they took a moment in time when the Catholics of Northern Ireland had the world’s eye and sympathy and, rather than harness that opportunity, pissed it away. The British government was susceptable to moral pressure — India had proven that. But no, the opportunity was turned over to a collection of political science majors and socialists who fumbled the ball because, like every other political science major and socialist I’ve had the dubious pleasure to meet, the figured if the world revolved around their happy selves, they could do no wrong and, if they wished hard enough and clapped, shrieking their belief in faeries, things would turn out their way.
Are things better now? Yup.
Is it as a result of what Gerry and Company did? Nope.
Things are no better now than they would have been if NICRA / Sinn Fein had a Ghandi at the helm, rather than a Che, only later, with a great deal more recrimination.
The British government was susceptable to moral pressure—India had proven that
In 400 years the british government has never proven to be suceptable to moral pressure on the Irish question. Whether NICRA would have been succesful under the right leadership is a question for the ages as the answer will never be known. What is known is that the british government apparently bowed to moral pressure and shot 14 kids in the back who had the temerity to ask for what should have been theres by right of birth.
While by no means backing everything the IRA did I will always believe the violent re-action to british oppresion was the only re-action likely to have garnered englands attention. Until the IRA’s violence was broadcast on TV and brought disrepute to the english government they were all too happy to ignore Ireland and let the loyalist operate an apartheid state in their name
Sean: “In 400 years the british government has never proven to be suceptable to moral pressure on the Irish question.”
They’d never had the misfortune to have their “peace officers” front and center on television, either, Sean, until just before the Troubles.
Sean: “Whether NICRA would have been succesful under the right leadership is a question for the ages as the answer will never be known. What is known is that the british government apparently bowed to moral pressure and shot 14 kids in the back who had the temerity to ask for what should have been theres by right of birth. ”
No, it won’t be known because, rather than harness that moment — innocents shot dead protesting for civil rights, someone had to go play the dark hero. They ceded any moral high ground and legitimacy that the horror of that moment in time gave them with bullets, bombs and soft target hits, as if setting off bombs in pubs was somehow going to accomplish anything.
Sean: “While by no means backing everything the IRA did I will always believe the violent re-action to british oppresion was the only re-action likely to have garnered englands attention.”
Drunk the kool-aid that deeply? Keep telling yourself that and maybe you’ll come to truly believe it. All the bombing campaign and assorted foolishness accomplished was creating an atmosphere that like as not set things back decades. What, in the end, was gained by setting off bombs in pubs that couldn’t have been gained by better and ultimately faster means? All it accomplished was provide legitimacy to the tactics of the British, gave rise to paramilitary organized gangs, as if the ordinary decent criminal organized gangs weren’t bad enough and hardened, what, three generations worth of people.
Sean: “Until the IRA’s violence was broadcast on TV and brought disrepute to the english government they were all too happy to ignore Ireland and let the loyalist operate an apartheid state in their name ”
Until the IRA’s violence, the violence of the B-Specials and the RUC would have brought disrepute to the English government. All bombs and assassinations did was harden hearts and anger folks, Sean. All a couple pounds of Semtex dropped off in a bar accomplished was kill some folks and piss off a lot more folks. The IRA looked like the catspaw / dupe of the Warsaw pact, what with the collection of AK-47s and Czech made explosives, a point apparently lost on that collection of Marxist / Leninists during the Cold War. Training and support from Libyans didn’t sell well, either.
Scared people, angry people — these are not folks usually willing to grant concessions, leastwise not on the scale of PIRA or the INLA’s operations. Britian had weathered the Blitz within a little more than a generation of the Troubles, and the braintrust in charge of SF / PIRA thought that blowing up pubs was going to accomplish their goals? And you believe this plan was a good thing?
And, in the end, what was gained for all this thud and blunder? Certainly not a United Ireland. Last I checked, the border is still there.
http://tinyurl.com/275e5x
Che couldn’t be all bad – inspiration behind the Pumas semi final place no less. Strange but true….
ANd a drinking session in Limerick no less….he gets better every minute.
Dewi: “Che couldn’t be all bad – inspiration behind the Pumas semi final place no less. Strange but true…. ”
Che was a blood-thirsty maroon, who willingly played a peasent Beria to Castro’s Stalin…
And folks wonder why I laugh at death penalty protesters in “Che-wear.”
Until the IRA’s violence, the violence of the B-Specials and the RUC would have brought disrepute to the English government
True Dread but some how it never made it on to television screens so it was just business as usual
And, in the end, what was gained for all this thud and blunder? Certainly not a United Ireland. Last I checked, the border is still there
Also true but now there is a mechanism to change that, something that was never there before. I never said they accomplished all their goals just that they accomplished some of them albeit not in the manner they expected
ANd as for hardening loyalist hearts against their nationalist neighbours theres no evidence there ever was anything but hardened hearts. the murder and intimidation of their nrighbours, the pogrommes, the protestant work places for protestan peoples. Tell me where you think there was warm fuzzy feelings before. The loyalists started the troubles they just never expected to get handed the shitty end of the stick
Sean
If you’d lived here, you’d know that hundreds of thousands of Catholics and Protestants lived and worked together side by side, united by their utter disgust for the mayhem that was being unleashed around them.
I’ve worked for, and with, many Protestants, and the majority have had little truck with the kind of divisive politics that have been foisted on the NI population. That’s a story that’s not told often enough in this country, and that would be very easy to miss from your distant vantage point.
“Che was a blood-thirsty maroon, who willingly played a peasent Beria to Castro’s Stalin…”
Well put, Dread. I often wondered just how much the Che Guevara t-shirt brigade knew about the great man, or whether they were really just Jim Fitzpatrick fans all along and never realised it..
Sean: “Also true but now there is a mechanism to change that, something that was never there before. I never said they accomplished all their goals just that they accomplished some of them albeit not in the manner they expected ”
All that “mechanism” is is an acknowledgement of what would happen in a “normal” political situation and still doesn’t address address the problem that occurred the last time there was a plebiscite on the future of Ireland.
Sean: “ANd as for hardening loyalist hearts against their nationalist neighbours theres no evidence there ever was anything but hardened hearts. the murder and intimidation of their nrighbours, the pogrommes, the protestant work places for protestan peoples. Tell me where you think there was warm fuzzy feelings before. The loyalists started the troubles they just never expected to get handed the shitty end of the stick ”
Who said anything about only Loyalist hearts being hardened, Sean? The lines on all sides hardened, even on the Republican side. As for the rest, it sounds like you’re trying to speak authoritatively from a position that acknowledges neither history, human nature or reality. One cannot bomb’s their way to social acceptance or equality. Your inability to address my points, preferring sweeping pronouncements rather than addressing the points raised argues that your position is weak, insofar as you must take refuge behind jargon and sloganeering.
When I first saw the Guavara quotes, I was struck by two things:
- the need to inculcate “a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us over and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to and transforming him into an effective, violent, selective and cold killing machine.”
- and that for effective guerilla warfare, “it is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be; make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move.”
Neither are trivial in their effects either here or in hundreds of ‘elsewheres’.
The first is not easy to achieve, even for individuals previously traumatised by the troubles. One of the most moving passages (of many) in Lost Lives is an extract from a letter to the Irish Times by a Belfast magistrate regarding the killing of his daughter after Mass at St Bridget’s:
“The murderer’s gun which was pointed at my wife’s head, misfired twice. Another gunman shot me six times. As he prepared to fire the first shot I saw the look of hatred on his face, a face I will never forget.
“While your constitution and laws may constrain your judiciary to hold that the killer was carrying out a political act, I can assure them that the hatred on that face came from the depths of hell itself.”
That’s from the victims point of view. But consider the state of the ‘volunteer’ just after such a killing, most especially in the case of a first operation. It must take considerable pumping up to do that kind of damage to another human being. The back story of a magistrate can hardly have formed much in the way of motivation.
What state would they have found themselves afterwards? Distress? Elation? And there was a time when this kind of pre-emptive killing was commonplace.
Under the Guevara dictum, of course, this is perfectly legitimate: both in terms of impelling people across the line of ‘civilised behaviour’ and summoning up sufficient hate to take another life; and in getting to ‘the enemy’ where he thinks he’s at rest (in this case, with his family at his place of worship).
But it is also possible to see a major flaw in the strategy as applied to Northern Ireland. The enemy was stated to be the British. But, mostly, the ‘occupying forces’ were at their rest in England where although both IRA’s were able to perform spectacular operations, they could not “prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment”.
Instead, they were forced (by the very inaccessibility of the soldiers and their families) to turn on their (would be) fellow countrymen and women who had joined ‘the opposition’ in order to defend Northern Ireland’s right to remain British, or as in many cases, simply to help administer the law, as they saw it. That, by any definition surely, is a civil war, rather than a post imperialist struggle?
The question I have is about that hatred. What happened to it? Where did it go? Like Pandora’s box, it is likely impossible to get it all back into the box.