Public spaces and the past
The conflict and commemoration of events and individuals has come into focus with two disputes of very different origins. A memorial in Enniskillen Fire Station to the dead of the Poppy Day Massacre has been removed following a complaint by a staff member. Unionist representatives have raised their objections. This is the second time this issue has been occurred in Enniskillen. Meanwhile, in Craigavon a family request for a memorial seat beside the grave of leading loyalist Mark Fulton has been approved. The SDLP are to lodge a complaint with the Equality Commission.
What’s a memorial seat when it’s at home? Is it like Arthur Fowler’s bench in Albert Square? Do the family not own the plot of land where Fulton is buried anyway?
Who, in their right mind could object to a montage commerating those innocents who died at the war memorial, I thought I was a hardened veteran of the conflict but in no way can I agree with this, we all need to be allowed to mourn our dead in peaceful and appropriate fashion and leave the stupid sectarian ideas of yesteryear just there or we risk infecting the next generations with our past hate to repeat the deaths in coming generations.
This is one subject I cannot wind anyone up over.
i read about the fire station thing. totally disgusting. the complainer was obviously a hate filled ira supporting republican. he just wanted to use the law to attack anything remotely british, even a picture with poppies in it. pathetic. descent people should not listen to these people and should tell them where to go… imagine a 9/11 memorial being taken down in a NY firestation because some sicko objected to a picture with an american flag or something like that. its ridiculous to even listen to these compaints.
the memorial seat is another sick decision. NIs terrorists should not be honoured in any way.
i wish people would use a bit of common sense in making decisions. equality laws are just used by people as a means to attack what they dont like. and then theres the human rights stuff. its all ‘ you’re denying my human rights if you dont give me what i want..’
the eniskillen thing is ridiculous. How could anyone (even a republican) object to it? And, arguably more importantly why was his/her objections upheld?
“the eniskillen thing is ridiculous. How could anyone (even a republican) object to it? And, arguably more importantly why was his/her objections upheld?”
Right lads – everyone calm down and put your brains in gear (yes, even the ‘descent’ people eranu). Let’s suppose that someone had put a memorial poster to the dead of Bloody Sunday up in a communal, mixed-community workplace – still think you’d be outraged if co-workers suggested it’s removal? Didn’t think so.
The point is that Fire Stations should provide a neutral working environment. Naturally, Unionists are apoplectic about the decision to remove this montage but would be reticent if the montage was of Bloody Sunday, in fact they would campaign for it’s removal.
The fact that we are moving away from conflict and haven’t really developed a mature appreciation of all victims necessitates the neutralising of such places of work.
“The point is that Fire Stations should provide a neutral working environment. Naturally, Unionists are apoplectic about the decision to remove this montage but would be reticent if the montage was of Bloody Sunday, in fact they would campaign for it’s removal.
The fact that we are moving away from conflict and haven’t really developed a mature appreciation of all victims necessitates the neutralising of such places of work.
Posted by Paul on Oct 02, 2007 @ 02:09 PM”
Quite so Paul, though you may as well talk to the wall as try to explain that to this lot of sectarian knee-jerkers………
Bemused
“Right lads – everyone calm down and put your brains in gear (yes, even the ‘descent’ people eranu). Let’s suppose that someone had put a memorial poster to the dead of Bloody Sunday up in a communal, mixed-community workplace – still think you’d be outraged if co-workers suggested it’s removal?”
Sorry but the analogy falls at the first fence. Please see the Bloody Sunday memorial window in the Guildhall, a public building maintained and staff by an organisation with a mixed workforce.
http://www.jcu.edu/belfastinstitute/bloody_sunday_window.htm
If the Poppy Day service had descended into a riot from which loyalist snipers were shooting …..
As usual, political correctness gone mad!
This country is being ruined by the “I have the right not to be offended brigade”. Whether it’s on the streets, in the work place or anywhere else, the giving in to this nonsense devalues society and stifles tolerance.
No matter where you go in the world, and I have travelled a fair bit, whether its’ royalty, football teams, local heroes or what every, they all have a place on the factory floor, in the office where ever. Other societies and culture have been able to work out a tolerance policy, why can’t we?
Its’ incredible the only place you can’t were an Ireland rugby jersey to work is Northern Ireland – not that you would want to at the minute. We have created a sterile environment in which we believe people should live, free from challenges, free from reality, free from diversity and most important free from tolerance.
The removal of the memorial is totally alien to the principles of a “share futureâ€. If we really want a “shared future†then the picture should be replaced
No doubt this person must be very pleased with themselves. Some petty little nark with nothing better to do than run gurning – It’s dciscrimination, so it is!”. What next – the La Mon window in Castlereagh or maybe the Cenotaph outside City Hall?
These saddos really anger me, they need to get a life and practice what they preach about respect and tolerance.
This decision is a disgrace. Sinn Fein IRA murdered innocent people in Enniskillen. The world was outraged. Yet some Republican objects to the memory of those victims. Why must Unionists be subjected to a Sinn Fein IRA terrorist shrine at the Maze, yet ordinary decent people are not allowed to hang a photo on a wall in Enniskillen. It’s the usual hierarchy of victims. In SF IRA’s world we must ‘celebrate’ and remember the terrorist murderers while their victims must keep quiet and suffer in silence. The DUP says it stands up for the real victims – this is a good test to see what action they will take on this one.
Paul/Bemused
fact that we are moving away from conflict and haven’t really developed a mature appreciation of all victims necessitates the neutralising of such places of work
e so Paul, though you may as well talk to the wall as try to explain that to this lot of sectarian knee-jerkers………
If the montage had (justifiably in my opinion) carried the words,”Innocents Murdered by IRA scum”, then, fair enough, I can see how being reminded of that inconvenient fact may upset
Republicans in the workforce and probably create an “uncomfortable” work environment.
But it doesn’t; the legend on top of the “montage” reads simply:
“The innocents who lost their lives”, no mention of the organisation which carried out the massacre.
How could anyone, in all conscience, (even Republicans) object to such wording?
So would it be fair to place a memorial beside it commemorating the hunger strikers?
No – Sinn Fein is currently campaigning against suicide.
‘So would it be fair to place a memorial beside it commemorating the hunger strikers?
Posted by Sean on Oct 02, 2007 @ 03:06 PM
No – Sinn Fein is currently campaigning against suicide.
Posted by Quaysider on Oct 02, 2007 @ 03:21 PM’
Once again a thread is decending into the usual whataboutary, as someone who survived three seperate UVF attacks I reiterate what I said above
‘we all need to be allowed to mourn our dead in peaceful and appropriate fashion and leave the stupid sectarian ideas of yesteryear just there or we risk infecting the next generations with our past hate to repeat the deaths in coming generations.’; I am no less committed to the reunification of our country but if we fail to unite our people the conflict will come back to threaten my children and potential grandchildren, have you all learned nothing from the 3000+ deaths of young men and women, many of whom were my friends and relatives.
It’s shocking that in the places where it is needed most, those that are public and state run, there has been no attempt to impose any sort of blanket ban on such sponsored displays of ethnic/religious/community affiliation
Who put the memorial up in the first place on on whose authority?
It’s shocking that in the places where it is needed most, those that are public and state run, there has been no attempt to impose any sort of blanket ban on such sponsored displays of ethnic/religious/community affiliation
Abdul-Rahim
The Enniskillen massacre caused great hurt throughout the community, irrespective of peoples’ “ethnic/religious/community affiliation”.
“So would it be fair to place a memorial beside it commemorating the hunger strikers?”
No it would not. The people in one picture were innocent people the people in another would not be.
Dec
Why does it matter?
“So would it be fair to place a memorial beside it commemorating the hunger strikers?â€
Even leaving aside any position on the hunger strikers that would be irrelevant. The hunger strikers died in the Maze whereas the people killed in Enniskillen self evidently died in Enniskillen.
Also of course the Enniskillen fire brigade helped the people caught up in the aftermath of the bombing. Again self evidently the Enniskillen fire brigade had nothing to do with the deaths of the hunger strikers.
As fair_deal has pointed out there is a memorial to those killed on Bloody Sunday in the Guilhall so there seem to be potential double standards here.
but but but but …………. why was it put up? I hate to think that some pervert would have put it up to annoy somebody else .. would anybody use such an incident to do that?
Pancho’s Horse
It was put up by the firemen in enniskillen – 19 years ago – I doubt it was done to annoy anyone but if it was it took a hell of a long time to work! More to the point, why has someone been happy with it for so long and then objected the day before press and vip’s visit the station for a refurbishment ceremony
Maybe WHEN they put it back up it would be a good opportunity to add a picture of Ronnie Hill the 12th Victim of the atrocity who lost his life in 2000 after 13 years in a coma as a result of the bomb.
You are an obviously well informed LazyGeek but still no reason as to why it was put up.People always do things like this for a reason. You have heard of people who tolerate their wife/father/boss for ages and finally snap. Maybe this kid snapped. Workplaces are supposed to be neutral and symbol free. Why should anyone feel even slightly uncomfortable at work?
It’s not hard to be well informed – read the newspapers!
Why was it put up? – Why do we have a cenotaph in every major town in the country? Why do we have memorial pages in newspapers? Why are there plaques and tributes in fire stations police stations and a multitude of other public buildings around the world – to pay tribute to our dead.
“We all recognise something obscene in the fact that this attack was planned and carried out on a day which many ordinary Irish men and women had gathered to commemorate those of their families and friends who had died in two World Wars. There is a long Irish tradition of respect for those paying tribute to our dead….” – Statement to Dáil Éireann by the then Minister of Foreign Affairs, Brian Lenihan
As for “Why should anyone feel even slightly uncomfortable at work?” – I don’t think they should, but has anyone explained exactly what it is about this innocent tribute that makes anyone feel uncomfortable? Who objected and on what grounds? I even heard a SF politician on the radio yesterday saying he wouldn’t be offended by it!
Pancho’s Horse
“Why should anyone feel even slightly uncomfortable at work”
Well its not as simple as that is it?
Why should a memorial to a large group of people who were murdered cause offense unless one chose to be offended?
If someone suggested they were uncomfortable with people wearing poppies should they be banned at work?
Why was the plaque put up? Well it was an important event in Enniskillen, caused a lot of revulsion on all sides here and internationally and the fire brigade were heavily involved in the aftermath.
Ballygobackwards
It matters because was it the action of an individual or the Fire Service. No-one disputes that Enniskillen was a despicable act yet if you go down the road where some atrocities are worthy of commeration, in a supposedly neutral environment, but others are not, then you are open to the charge of operating a hierarchy of victimhood.
Pancho’s Horse
It was put up by the firemen in enniskillen – 19 years ago – I doubt it was done to annoy anyone but if it was it took a hell of a long time to work! More to the point, why has someone been happy with it for so long and then objected the day before press and vip’s visit the station for a refurbishment ceremony
Posted by LazyGeek on Oct 02, 2007 @ 09:10 PM
Whats the chances that 19 years ago the fire service in Enniskillen was 100% prods and now its not and the non-prods don’t feel comfortable with it
A suggestion by Fermanagh Sinn Fein that the memorial be put back up would be useful. I don’t think any republicans would object.
Bemused/Paul,
Would either of you like to explain what exactly is offensive or inappropriate about this memorial? Less to do with equality I believe, and more to do with a guilty conscience over a disgusting terrorist attack on the vulnerable.
Best to paint over the bits we don’t like ehh?
Like firemen, people who selflessly risk their lives for people like YOU despite your bitterness, simply trying to mark the day they spent helping to pick up bits of people in Enniskillen.
“Lest we forget” is a lesson for us all. You make me sick.
Séan
‘Whats the chances that 19 years ago the fire service in Enniskillen was 100% prods and now its not and the non-prods don’t feel comfortable with it’
Do you think a fireman, regardless of his community background when attending an incident asks, Is this person catholic or protestant before they risk their lives to carry out their job, there is a place for removing symbols offensive to the other community, but it was by chance no catholics were killed on Nov. 8th 1987, something which cannot be said when 31 were killed in Omagh 1998, do you object to the erection of a memorial there to commerate those innocent men, women and children, two unborn, just because some were protestant?
Bear in mind, in Enniskillen, Maire Wilson was little more than a child also, like the firemen, I doubt she would ask a persons religion before treating them.
If the non prods, by which I take it you mean catholic, feel uncomfortable with it I suggest they examine their own prejudices and look for what really makes a happy workplace!
MacAedha
I don’t think Sean was commenting that firemen might ascertain the community background of potential victims of a fire before risking their lives and your analogy with Omagh is not appropriate given the memorial there is in a public space.
Fact is there are laws governing discrimination/harassment in the workplace and it would be a foolish employer that did not take such an issue seriously.
The impact of the Enniskillen bomb on community relations in Enniskillen has always been seriously underestimated. Members of my own family were harassed in their job in the public sector after the bomb just for being from the catholic community despite their revulsion of the cowardly murders. My family member was shunned and verbally attacked as if they had planted the bomb.
I have some knowledge of Enniskillen fire station and there would have been a culture of service in the security forces especially from retained firemen. Sean has got it spot on , the composition of the workforce is changing and management cannot ignore the potential that the display of symbols and emblems has to cause a less than harmonious working environment. That is to say the Enniskillen bomb was , has and is being used to inform and “remind” all people from the catholic community ” look at what youse did” . That is the likely context in which the objection was made
In a fire station it would be appropriate in my view for some form of formal recognition of events in which firefighters lost their lives or were seriously injured but no more than that.
Enniskillen is rightly served by a memorial to the victims of the bomb in the form of the revised cenotaph and the new buildings at the junction of East Bridge and Belmore Street
Rapunsel,
a memorial is a thing used to commemrate an event, I too have experience of the aftermath of the bombing in Enniskillen and the hurt caused to our two communities, however, almost twenty years later can you really say it was being used to state ‘look at what youse did’. The firemen regardless of their community background did/do not give a toss the religion of people where they attend incidents, they simply get on with their job.
As to my reference to Omagh, the purpose was to remind Séan his comment seems to apply to where only prods (sic) were killed it seems to be ok to oppose a memorial to the dead, bollocks!
“Its’ incredible the only place you can’t were an Ireland rugby jersey to work is Northern Ireland”
Minor clarification – this is worn every year on a mandatory basis by Ulster Bank staff in Northern Ireland (and the Republic) during the 6 nations. But that is a sponsorship promotion.
In most workplaces, even in England, sportswear is banned because it causes disruption (e.g. Everton vs. Liverpool) and tends to contravene smart dress guidelines.
Why was this memorial allowed up in the first place. In the civil service you are not allowed to make any kind of comment or joke that might offend anyone from any background be it sex, politics, race or whatever. Surely the fire service should be the same.The work environment is not the place for memorials other than those to work collegues who have died.
“MacAedha,
I have some knowledge of Enniskillen fire station and there would have been a culture of service in the security forces especially from retained firemen.”
“Séan
‘Whats the chances that 19 years ago the fire service in Enniskillen was 100% prods and now its not and the non-prods don’t feel comfortable with it’ ”
Don’t over estimate your knowledge – I too have enough knowledge to know that you are way off base. There is not and never was such a culture, in fact I am fairly sure that it is not even permissible to serve as a retained fireman and be in security forces.
As for “especially from retained fireman” – anyone with a knowledge worth boasting about would know that there has never been anything other than retained firemen in enniskillen?
I have been shown a recently published booklet to mark the refurbishment of the station in enniskillen, it contains a list of all those who have served there in the past 50 years and it is plainly obvious that there has always been a health mix of people from all sections of the community.
Also don’t lose sight of the many statements in recent days that clearly say that the majority (almost 100% as i understand it) of firemen in enniskillen are quite happy with the picture.
It appears to me that too many people are using this affair to air their own opinion without consulting the actual people who serve the community (all of the community) from enniskillen fire station. Why are we not hearing from the firemen – is the fire brigade gagging them?
“MacAedha,
I have some knowledge of Enniskillen fire station and there would have been a culture of service in the security forces especially from retained firemen.â€
Not my post
What about the ‘Bloody Sunday’ memorial window in the Guildhall in Londonderry? The Pan-Nationalists on here are very silent in relation to that. Neutral working environment?
Many of the firemen had to pick up bits of people caused by the Sinn Fein IRA bomb in Enniskillen. Only a Pan-Nationalist with a guilt complex could object to a photo of the innocent who were murdered.
Sinn Fein IRA must not be allowed to re-write history. Their murder, torture and ethnic cleansing has caused broken lives and broken homes. They need to apologise to ALL their victims.
The problem in areas like Fermanagh is that the majority of Roman Catholics continue to vote for the group which carried out this and other atrocities. Therefore, it’s hardly surprising to see their sectarianism in action over these photos. Shame on them.
The problem in areas like Fermanagh is that the majority of Roman Catholics continue to vote for the group which carried out this and other atrocities. Therefore, it’s hardly surprising to see their sectarianism in action over these photos. Shame on them.”
Peace and Justice- you are displ;aying the type of sectarianism yourself which I highlighted ina previous post. Fact is that Sinn Fein lost electoral support after the Enniskillen bomb and the rise in their electoral success is intrinsically connected to the ending of the IRA campaign.
I don’t see any attempt to rewrite history. Noone who visits or is from Enniskillen could ever forget the bomb and in my view there is still a need to bring to some sort of justice those who planted it.
I can’t comment on the window in the Guildhall and am not sure that it is at all comparable in the sense that the issue under consideration is an objection raised by a staff member in the fire service in Enniskillen.
Perhaps someone who works for Derry City Council wil raise the Guildhall issue and we will see what their response is?
Lazygeek
Are you honestly trying to say from your reading of a book on the fire service that the composition of the service in Enniskillen was reflective of the community make up and there was no service in the security services from firefighters there?
Fact is someone has objected to the display and management have to take it seriously, it doesn’t matter a damn what the rest of the employees think there or in any other workplace.
MacAedha – apologies, my mistake!
Rapunsel
Are you honestly trying to say from your reading of a book on the fire service that the composition of the service in Enniskillen was reflective of the community make up and there was no service in the security services from firefighters there?
No – I am responding to a stupid and unfounded statement:
Whats the chances that 19 years ago the fire service in Enniskillen was 100% prods and now its not and the non-prods don’t feel comfortable with it …. Posted by Sean on Oct 02, 2007 @ 11:21 PM
I am saying that from looking at a list of names it is obvious how unfounded this statement is – and also saying that there certainly was NO culture of service in the forces.
I live in fermanagh and recognise a great many of the names – enough of them to know that they represent the whole community and to be proud that of all of them and sacrifices that they made and still make to serve and protect my family and community.
Anyone who heard about the sad incident recently in wicklow will know what risks the firemen take in times of peace never mind what they risked during the years of conflict.
I would say the legend on the picture is very much meant to tell the catholics”look what you lot done so keep your heads down and your mouth shut”
Perhaps if the changed it to “our day of sorrow” or something similar the objection would be removed but as it stands to some I am sure its an attempt to label them killers for being catholics
Sean, have you been smoking crack?
The memorial makes no reference to political agenda, never mind religion, so how can you possibly draw the conclusion that the memorial is some kind of propaganda message aimed at Catholics? Im sure many catholic contributors to this blog would take offence to your comment. What then, by the same logic, is the cryptic message behind the bloody sunday window in the Guildhall in Derry? “Brits out”?
As I have stated before and will reiterate again, the Firemen have a traumatic and difficult job, often making life or death decisions, as do the other emergency services. Most peoples idea of danger in their working lives is the office photocopier running out of paper. Why shouldnt they be allowed to remember the sacrifice they have made for their local community? If more people had the guts to serve others instead of pointing the finger we might gain some appreciation.
K-fed its you who is apparently smoking crack because as far as I know no member of the fire service was a victim of the Enniskillen bombing so its not a memorial to them
Michael Gallagher, whose son Aiden was killed in the 1998 Omagh bomb has said:
“These are things that affected the lives of people in Enniskillen and the feelings of those who suffered should always be considered first. My thoughts will be with them.
It is a bit rich for people to feel offended by a memorial to such a horrific incident. The people who should feel offended, are the people who buried their dead.
I am dismayed at the way victims are treated. It is quite incredible that so soon after we have reached peace and agreement, people are seeking to rewrite history because they are uncomfortable with it.”
The person who objected to the photos should be named and shamed.
Sean
Perhaps you’d like to explain what is offensive about the memorial.
I think I need a pescription for prozac;
Please take a piece of friendly advice, from a book I read during the summer,
‘smile more, hate less’
I assure you, the world will be a happier place.
“K-fed its you who is apparently smoking crack because as far as I know no member of the fire service was a victim of the Enniskillen bombing so its not a memorial to them”
Yeah, cheers for that. Go back to sleep Sean.