Currently in the Assembly….
The Minister for Education is currently in the middle of a tirade (wont work in Firefox, at least for me). Apparently opposition to the political use of the Irish language in Education is just “bias and prejudice”.
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Douglas Murray – Bloody Sunday: Truth, Lies and the Saville Inquiry, Book Review
The aftermath of the Saville Inquiry into the events around Bloody Sunday has left me, and I suspect many others, with one enduring image: Prime Minister David Cameron’s apology in the House of Commons, where he says that the actions of the British Army were ‘unjustified and unjustifiable.’ But there’s a lot more to the [...] read our review » -
Learning from 1798?: Northern Ireland’s Upcoming Decade of Commemorations
Last year, the Lilliput Press released a new extended edition of Tom Dunne’s Ewart-Biggs Memorial Prize winning book, Rebellions: Memoir, Memory and 1798. First published in 2004, Dunne’s book provoked considerable controversy with its critique of the ‘commemorationist’ history that Dunne believed dominated the 1998 commemorations of the 1798 Rebellion. The book blasted the involvement [...] read our review » -
“Unionism Decayed 1997-2007″ by David Vance: book review
I initially wrote this when the book was first published three years ago; whilst certain elements of it now sound dated, its basic premise that the period of 1997-2007 was a period of irreversible decay for Northern Irish Unionism can still be argued as a valid opinion. My own feeling is that it did indeed [...] read our review »
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gaelgannaire
“Please clarify, are you saying that that the problem with Irish speakers is that they are Catholic and that you believe that if they weren’t that there would be no problem? ”
Nope. First, I did not restrict my comments to the religious views of the Free P’s but political views and linguistic heritage as well. Second, my comment was to show the serious flaws of cherrypicking from somewhere else. If you want to apply the norms of somewhere else then you have to go the whole hog not just ask for the bits you like to be\ applied. Hope that clears that up for you.
gaelgannaire
So his gaelic speaking came first not the politics.
http://www.wfn.org/1997/12/msg00105.html
And that
http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/english/Presbyterian%20and%20Gaelic.doc
Fascinating stuff on Presbyterianism worship in Irish at the present day.
“english is superior, it is the language of the world.”
Observer is superiority determined by popularity ?
Ziv – a deal in the offing ? Why not consider this subject on its merits.
Can’t remember who wanted to know about closing low roll schools but
http://www.deni.gov.uk/index/85-schools/10-types_of_school-nischools_pg/schools_-_types_of_school-_irish-medium_schools_pg/schools_-_types_of_school_lists_of_irishmedium_schools_pg.htm
(Sorry – don’t know how to reduce length of the link)
That’s the list – some consolidation was considered recently as bigger schools were opened close to smaller schools – but the pattern is of growth.
“This archaic bias against minority languages disappeared in Scotland and Wales in the 1970s.”
bradán, they’re not against “minority languages” in general, just one in particular.
bradan
I’m afraid you may been misinterpreting the Welsh situation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6256142.stm
Your point Fair deal ? It’s a struggle but I’d put the debate into four historic phases:
1) I’d love the language to survive, but…
2) I’d love the language to survive, how ?..
3) I’d love a bilingual Wales, but…
4) I’d love a bilingual Wales, how ?
I reckon, consensually we are about at 3.5. Discussion and debate seems to be about tactics rather than any great principles. Personal preference is concentrating on:
a) Getting language heard. Train station announcements, rugby stadium announcements
Assembly speeches all good stuff.
b)Now, to normalise things I want Welsh on my cornflake packets just like Sean has French in Canada !!
Dewi
1. That the position in Wales is not necessarily as pro as bradan was describing it.
2. Therfore opposition is not as he was described an “archaic bias”
FD,
from the report you link…
“The current Welsh Language Act came into force in 1993 and put Welsh on an equal footing with English with regard to the public sector in Wales.”
The opinion poll refers to an replacement of this existing Act with a more powerful pro-Welsh Act.
CD
“forgot the DUP’s latest line was to close all catholic, Irish medium and integrated schools ”
Nothing “latest line” about it a single state system has been policy for years. Also integrated schools wouldn’t close, the state system would become largely integrated in its own right.
Paid
I know and it shows no appetite for going beyond existing provision.
FD,
A Tadhg in a state school does not an integrated make.
There may have been Catholics in it but there were certainly no Nationalists -
I suppose thats what SF said just before they murdered them
“I know and it shows no appetite for going beyond existing provision.”
I won’t debate with you on that because you might well be right.
The truly fundamental point is about philosophy. Do we want the celtic languages to survive as living modern languages ? – If the answer is “no” then do nowt – if the answer is “yes” then u gotta do stuff – we, I think, have decided that the answer is “yes” but still debating what has to be done,
Observer, SF is a political party. Don’t you mean the PIRA? And still it goes on ……….. there won’t be any republicans in the PSNI!
FD,
“I know and it shows no appetite for going beyond existing provision”
and we both know that there is no ‘existing provision’ in NI.
No appetite?
From your link…… “The poll found 24% thought all private business should be bilingual”
Given that Welsh speakers are only around 20% of the population, that is a stunningly high figure for private business, and the Welsh Language Movement are to be congratulated.
It would appear Welsh speakers have a very large appetite for change.
Dewi,
Try:
http://www.tinyurl.com or http://www.makeashorterlink.com.
FOLKS
The BBC poll mentioned above carried a loaded question. View Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Gymraeg’s response here – http://cymdeithas.org/2007/07/02/cymdeithas_reject_bbc_poll.html
FAIR DEAL
Scottish Gaelic speakers, be they Protestant, Catholic, Muslim or Atheist, are today more likely to be pro-Independence than not. Many however, especially in older generations, still feel an attachment with Britain.
OBSERVER
What planet are you on?
Paid
“and we both know that there is no ‘existing provision’ in NI. ”
I am afraid I know there is. This is not 1950′s Northern Ireland. It is not a year zero for Irish.
What is part 3 recognition (with 36 paragraphs for implementation across a number of public services) under the European Charter?
What is the statutory requirement on the Executive to produce a strategy for the promotion of the Irish language?
What is the Irish Language Broadcasting Fund?
What is the state funded Irish medium sector plus a promotional body for it in Northern Ireland?
What is Foras na Gaelige?
What is the Ultach Trust?
Etc
None of this is provision?
As well as Irish specific measure language groups also gain support from other state funding opportunities such as Arts and Community Regeneration Funding.
RG Cuan
Do they make explicit links between the two issues or do they try and develop cross-party support?
FAIR DEAL
Just like Gaelic speakers here, Gaelic speakers in Scotland do not make explicit links between politics and their indigenous language.
It’s the politicians who sometimes do that.
RG Cuan
“Just like Gaelic speakers here…do not make explicit links between politics and their indigenous language.”
I am pretty sure that is mistaken but the relevant material is at home so I will respond later this evening.
This is an opportunity for real politics to prevail. The reasons that Unionists are putting up against the IRL are petty and stupid in my opinion.
If this was any other country in the world the position would be to concede it gracefuly and then the Nationalists would owe them a favour. Thats how political deal making is done, not sitting on your high horse screaming NO NO NEVER NEVER. No fecking wonder the Assembly has already been reduced to the political equivilant of a dog chasing it’s tail.
Pounder
“If this was any other country in the world the position would be to concede it gracefuly and then the Nationalists would owe them a favour. Thats how political deal making is done,”
Godd political deals tend to have reciprocity not a nudge and wink about the future.
FAIR DEAL
What material do you need? Some old quote from SF? As has been noted before, they are hardly representative of the Irish language population.
99% of Irish Gaelic speakers do not use their language for political reasons. Sin sin. Just ask us.
Sean
If you think SF will give DUP a free run with Giants Causeway in the hope of getting away with some dubious deal on education then they are more foolish than I thought.
This is the era of accountability and long may it last.
Posted by ulsterfan on Sep 24, 2007 @ 06:29 PM
Oh but for all the changes SF seek that meet their agenda the Giants Causeway is a small price to pay for the unfettered power of key ministers in the place SF most want to change
Especially as this Fiasco is increasingly blowing up in the DUPers faces.
Dupers are playing right into their hands how can the DUPers object to an action they themselves have ordained, I hope sweeney made it worth while for them
RG
“What material do you need? Some old quote from SF? As has been noted before,
I can remember the SF quotes from memory. It is other material I want to raise
“they are hardly representative of the Irish language population. ”
Hmmm. It just happens to be the party who demanded an ILA.
b)Now, to normalise things I want Welsh on my cornflake packets just like Sean has French in Canada !!
Posted by Dewi on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:59 PM
Thats Flocons A Mais to you buddy lmao
I suppose thats what SF said just before they murdered them
Posted by observer on Sep 24, 2007 @ 11:36 PM
I know its part of your brain washing but honestly show me a single SF murder
Did anyone see the piece in the Irish News today about bilingualism holding off dementia?
So, to sum up, for the same price as a monolingual education you get 1. two languages, 2. better results and 3. less chance of developing dementia.
Seems like a good deal to me.
FD,
When I talk about provision I mean provision to do business with the State in Irish like the Welsh have. Have now.
Yes, already. Like, in the bag and all that.
Of course, if the State does not want to do business in Irish with Irish people, like it does in English with British people, then perhaps we should replace it with a State that does.
If NI wants nationalist loyalty, it has to earn it – though there will be a lot of folk happy if you don’t try.
And they’re not just Unionists.
“Did anyone see the piece in the Irish News today about bilingualism holding off dementia?”
No, but clearly the sooner unionists avail themselves of education in the Irish language the better for their mental health.
It may not only be dementia which they are staving off. Martin Dillon in his book The Trigger Men (Mainstream Publishing. 2004. pbk £7.99), commenting on the prevelance of sexual psychopaths within the ranks of Loyalism remarks that the unit for treating such disorders at Downpatrick Hospital was closed during the Troubles because of a lack of patients, the inference being that those who suffered from such disorder were now finding natural asylum serving God and Ulster by the time-honoured method of slaughtering Catholics.
RG
My apologies but I can’t find the document I wanted – my “filing system” fails me. It was research with attendees at irish language classes which included questions about why they were learning the language.
Do you know one I mean? I am almost certain it was one of the local Universities.
As I cannot source it I will not include my recollections of its findings.
Paid
“When I talk about provision I mean provision to do business with the State in Irish like the Welsh have.”
A restrictive and self-serving definition of provision.
However, the Welsh legislation fulfils 52 paragraphs under Part 3 of the European Charter. Scots Gaelic gets 39 paragraphs. Irish gets 36 paragraphs under Part 3. So it is almost equal in terms of practical measures for Gaelic and about 70% of Welsh.
In terms of use with the state Article 10: Administrative authorities and public services is the most relevant – Welsh gets 14 paragrpahs, Irish gets 9 and Gaelic gets 8. So present provision Irish has more than Gaelic
For Irish this includes:
1 Within the administrative districts of the State in which the number of residents who are users of regional or minority languages justifies the measures specified below and according to the situation of each language, the Parties undertake, as far as this is reasonably possible:
a (iv) to ensure that users of regional or minority languages may submit oral or written applications in these languages;
c to allow the administrative authorities to draft documents in a regional or minority language.
2 In respect of the local and regional authorities on whose territory the number of residents who are users of regional or minority languages is such as to justify the measures specified below, the Parties undertake to allow and/or encourage:
b) the possibility for users of regional or minority languages to submit oral or written applications in these languages;
e) the use by regional authorities of regional or minority languages in debates in their assemblies, without excluding, however, the use of the official language(s) of the State;
f) the use by regional authorities of regional or minority languages in debates in their assemblies, without excluding, however,however, the use of the official language(s) of the State;
g) the use or adoption, if necessary in conjunction with the name in the official language(s), of traditional and correct forms of place-names in regional or minority languages.
3 With regard to public services provided by the administrative authorities or other persons acting on their behalf, the Parties undertake, within the territory in which regional or minority languages are used, in accordance with the situation of each language and as far as this is reasonably possible:
c) to allow users of regional or minority languages to submit a request in these languages
4 With a view to putting into effect those provisions of paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 accepted by them, the Parties undertake to take one or more of the following measures:
a) translation or interpretation as may be required
5 The Parties undertake to allow the use or adoption of family names in the regional or minority languages, at the request of those concerned
“If NI wants nationalist loyalty, it has to earn it – though there will be a lot of folk happy if you don’t try.”
That old dog don’t hunt. In the past 10 years a lot of polticial changes etc that the nationalist community wanted were agreed to. The political result was a growth in support for the most vociferous nationalist party. Any ‘contentment’ was outwieghed by a growth in ‘expectation’ of success.
I also have a bit more respect for the depth of people’s beliefs and commitment to Irish unity that it would disappear simply by more provision for irish language.
FAIR DEAL
Yes, i think i remember the study you mention. I’m sure there’s some truth in its findings but on the whole Irish speakers use the language as they have an affinity with it and because it’s the native tongue of their home country.
When i get together with my friends in the pub or converse with my work colleagues we don’t speak Irish for political reasons or to somehow refute the rule of a certain state, we do so because we want to and because the language is a central part of who we are.
As for SF calling for the Acht, the SDLP also support it. as do the Union of Students in Ireland and other organisations through out the island.
Opponents to the ILA constantly cite SF’s stance on the issue as a reason why it should not be implemented. But the reality is it’s not about SF or any political party, it’s about the Irish language community who come from varied sections of our society.