“If it is a policy regarding one school..”
The BBC has an update to the story I noted previously – on the disbandment of Amnesty International Groups in Catholic schools – which, ahead of the Irish Bishops’ Conference next month, would indicate that all other schools in the Catholic Maintained sector will be advised to follow suit. The BBC report quotes the auxiliary bishop of Down and Connor, Donal McKeown
“If it is a policy regarding one school, it certainly would be a policy regarding all the Catholic schools in the diocese of Down and Connor.”
Another nail in the coffin?
The Amnesty move follows the general trend towards the use of rape as a weapon, and use of abortion to end the pregnancies which often result from such a campaign.
I know I speak for many Catholics when I voice my deep unease at moves to close Amnesty branches in schools (including my own) because of this. Bishop McKeown himself didn’t sound convinced on the radio this morning.
Without doubt abortion on demand is wrong, and its apparent use as contraceptive in some European states (Easy & West) but I find it diffcult to condemn victims of rape or incest who choose to abort. As would many other Catholics.
i personally know of great work being done overseas by catholic laity and clergy in the fields of social justice and human rights. Take a look at trocaire to quote just one example. I also know that many catholics working in such fields just groan when they hear such pronouncements from on high.
The Catholic church does a lot of good work helping people in need. So does Amnesty International. It makes sense for them to work together. It is very backward looking of the church to ban Amnesty from organising in schools.
Bollix,
I believe that’s what JoeCanuck meant: another nail in the Church’s coffin. It’s a sad situation and they should be showing the children a better example.
We’ve already had seventy plus comments on the first story about this and still people can’t understand how the Catholic Church, which everyone knows is completely opposed to abortion, can no longer align itself with Amnesty which is campaigning for complete decriminalisation. The only scandal here is the wetness of Bishop Mc Keown’s remarks – probably why he will not be becoming the next bishop of Down and Connor.
Splurge,
Why can’t the Catholic Church compromise for the greater good? Ensure for instance that the abortion issue isn’t mentioned by Amnesty in the RC schools. Seems the grown-up solution to me.
Dawkins – the compromise we had for years was that Amnesty was neutral on abortion. Pro-life people even then didn’t like this cos it meant we were campaigning on the death penalty for murderers and rapists but silent on abortion. But we accepted the compromise for the greater good. Amnesty have now destroyed that compromise. What I would encourage schools to do is continue with human rights work, but not as part of Amnesty. Schools in Australia are forming the Benenson society, named after the founder of Amnesty. Respect for human life is such a fundamental for the Catholic Church, how can we compromise on it?
Splurge,
In much the way you compromised on Limbo?
>>Respect for human life is such a fundamental for the Catholic Church, how can we compromise on it?<<
But they already do make compromises on their respect for their human life agenda e.g. paedophile priests.
The church has always had issues with womens bodies. Not so long ago women had to be “churched” after having a child. As though what they’d got up to was somehow impure.
If the church is to have any future relevance with kids it needs to work as a partner in schools rather than a dictator.
Gram,
Agreed. The Church could also stop being so bloody dogmatic. A little give would win it more friends.
While we’re at it I offer another angle on some of the difficulties in supporting Amnesty International:
A few years ago I found that AI were not prepared to join those of us campaiging to draw public attention to paramilitary abuses such as knee capping. Although AI in NI had a written statement as to their opposition to these human rights abuses, they also stated that they could not act on it because of their policy that AI groups not to campaign in the countries in which they are situated. For several years now this policy has changed (since the end of the troubles?)hence they are active in schools etc.(Interestingly, although the CAJ has a central interest in policing issues, they too refused to put punishment policing on their agenda).
However because of the courageous work of AI outside NI, I continue to support them – despite the black mark of inaction within NI. I suggest that people who do not like AI policy on abortion ought also to think of the bigger picture,continue support and agree to differ.
Dawkins: “Why can’t the Catholic Church compromise for the greater good? Ensure for instance that the abortion issue isn’t mentioned by Amnesty in the RC schools. Seems the grown-up solution to me. ”
One does not, and should not, compromise on matters of principle, Dawkins. The Church believes that abortion is murder. It is a sincerely held belief. why should they have to compromise? Ammesty is not entitled to access to the RC church and is, in any case, unlikely to compromise on the point any more than the RC Church.
AI’s feet are just as clay and just as uncompromising as those of the Church, having abrogated one compromise — neutrality on the matter of abortion. Why should it be the RC Church to give way and not AI return to the previous status quo?
Ah yes the church should compromise and not be so dogmatic on its teaching that killing an unborn baby is a mortal sin, I mean there’s such a lot of room for compromise there isn’t there?
Why should the church compromise? Why doesn’t AI compromise? Or at least go back to the previous compromise? And don’t give me the “it’s all because of Darfur” bollox, this is a smokescreen for the progressive hard left furthering its agenda.
Would AI compromise on torture, or the death penalty? No it wouldn’t, opposition to these two things are sacrosanct to the entire existence of AI. Well guess what opposition to killing unborn babies just happens to be a fundamental basis of the Catholic church.
I note the charge of hypocrisy was levelled at the church in the other thread to my mind the church is consistent, it is pro-life, anti-torture, anti-death penalty. AI on the other hand is pro-life when it comes to convicted murderers but seems to have no qualms about offing several million unborn babies every year, and of course we know the next step will be a call for the legalisation of euthanasia so that inconvenient oul’ wans can be bumped off by their impatient relatives as a “human right”. Believe me that will be the next item on the agenda once abortion is bedded in.
No it’s not the Catholic church that is being inconsistent or hypocritical I’m afraid.
>>I note the charge of hypocrisy was levelled at the church in the other thread to my mind the church is consistent, it is pro-life, anti-torture, anti-death penalty.<<
Harry you forgot about “pro-paedophilia and anti-contaception”.
I don’t think anyone on this thread is asking for the church to change it’s stance on abortion just that they should agree to disagree with AI on this issue and work together on other areas where they have broad agreement.
Harry Flashman,
You obviously missed my post on Limbo. Churches by their nature are not consistent. How could they be?
I’m asking the RCC to be less dogmatic in this case, and for once have a little respect and human feeling for the women victims.
If Amnesty International said that it was not appropriate to have Catholic sub groups in their branches, would the same level of criticism and accusations of dictatorship apply ?
Or would we simply say, well it’s the AI group, it’s up to them, the church should but out.
If people want to be catholic they are free to do it outside of AI if they wish.
The underlying agenda here is the Catholic Church should not have any say in anything, including outside organisations organising in their own schools.
Abucs,
Straw man. Amnesty is open to all religions. The RCC is a single religion.
Dawkins, i do not believe Limbo was ever dogma.
It was however a philosophical development that may still, or may not be true. The churches move was to clarify that it is not dogma.
It’s like Buddha sitting under his tree. One perceived bit of information allows you to ponder on what else is likely to be true.
It’s like saying if there is a realm outside of this universe it makes sense to think our origins come from there, it then makes sense to think there is intelligence there that creates, it then makes sense to say that intelligence has some sort of relationship with creation, it then makes sense to say that we can enter that other realm, it then makes sense to say that there is a criteria or process for entering, it then makes sense to say there are stages of processes for different situations ……. limbo.
The concept of limbo was along these philosophical lines, not a matter of church dogma to my knowledge.
To my mind it was a major theme and development of western rationality and logic played out under the guise of religion as so much of our western thought was. It is part of our history.
Of course you can disagree with its initial assumptions, but the exercise of rationality and logic from given assumptions leads to many many hypothesies. Limbo was one of those.
Dawkins,
i’m not talking about individual Catholics in AI, i’m talking about an organised sub group of Catholics in AI. The same as an organised sub group of AI in Catholic institutions.
I don’t think the Catholic Church has said members of AI cannot attend their schools ?
*I’m asking the RCC to be less dogmatic in this case, and for once have a little respect and human feeling for the women victims*
The number of abortions which are carried out as result of rape is miniscule and you know it. AI isn’t calling for abortion in the case of rape to be legalised it is calling for abortion to be classed as a human right.
The Catholic Church has an extremely consistent and unyielding stance as regards rape and incet, it condemns these sins and condemns them in the gravest possible way, it has done so for nigh on two millenia, it’s nice to see AI catch up. The Catholic Church has the deepest sympathy for victims of rape it just believes that abortion is not the appropriate response.
Let me put it another way, many people are traumatised by the fact that the murderers of their loved ones can get out of prison and be free to walk the streets a few years after they commit murder. I am sure AI sympathises with these victims but it does not believe that the death penalty for murder is the appropriate answer to this situation.
People ask whether the Catholic Church should compromise on abortion in the case of rape and incest, to which I ask in reply would Amnesty International compromise on torture and the death penalty in cases of men convicted of rape and incest?
No, I don’t think so either.
PS I am no theologian but I understand that Limbo was never actually a fundamental tenet of the Catholic faith, I am open to correction on that point.
Abucs,
Limbo may not have been dogma to you but it was to countless unfortunate parents throughout history, lied to by their Church that their unbaptized children would languish there. This is why I’m suggesting they lighten up now on this issue.
Why on earth would a group of Catholics organize within a nondenominational organization like Amnesty? It’s a straw man.
This isn’t a thread on aboution or the morality behind it. Personally I think it’s a disgrace that women have to go all the way to Liverpool for an abortion, but I don’t agree with using abortion as being used as another form of contraception.
Once again I point out the RCC are “advising” that schools stop facilitating young people who want to hold an AI meeting after school. Times change as do trends, unfortunately the RCC seems content to live in the past and try and enforce that on their young people.
Gram – what is the point of continually mentioning paedophile priests? We all know that individual priests, bishops and parents failed to protect children. But it was never a teaching of the Catholic Church to do so, quite the contrary. Just throwing it in everytime there is a discussion about Catholic issues is tiresome and fruitless.
As for limbo, it was a notion to comfort parents whose children had died without baptism, that they would not be going to hell. Now in a great act of revisionism it’s presented as keeping them out of heaven. The Church seems to have moved to a more agnostic position now – we don’t know where they end up but hopefully God has a way of reconciling the need for baptism and his infinite loving mercy.
My understanding of the concept of limbo was not that it was a permanent place of residence.
It was more like purgatory in that beings must be a certain way to enter Heaven. Part of this thought came from the belief that this universe is also a place for us to grow spiritually before entering the other realm.
It is interesting that Buddha under his tree came up with similar thoughts. Only his version of purgatory and limbo was re-incarnation.
The underlying ides of purification and illusion of this universe seperated from Heaven / Enlightenment / Nirvana are very similar.
It all flows from the acceptance of spirituality and the existance of a realm outside of our universe.
My comments on the theoretical idea of catholic organising in AI was to contrast peoples reactions if AI was to turn around and say – it is inappropriate. My question is to ask would such a wide ranging attack on AI be the justified response. I think it is very evident that it wouldn’t. In that case i suspect sensible reaction would prevail.
OK, time for me to go.
Pounder,
FFS, et tu Pounder?! On the other thread two peeps insisted abortion was contraception when it patently is not.
Write out 100 times:
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
See, I’ve made a start for you :0)
Pounder: “Once again I point out the RCC are “advising†that schools stop facilitating young people who want to hold an AI meeting after school. Times change as do trends, unfortunately the RCC seems content to live in the past and try and enforce that on their young people. ”
Which, frankly, last I checked, is their perogative at this point in time.
If it is the Church’s physical plant, should they not have the right to use it as they see fit? If the teacher-advisors for these clubs are Church personnel, either through vows or paycheck, should not the church have a say in how they spend their time whilst on the clock and on-site?
Dawkins: “FFS, et tu Pounder?! On the other thread two peeps insisted abortion was contraception when it patently is not. ”
If we we must be precise, Dawkins, there are a number of women who are using abortion in lieu of using contraception, as, in fact, ex post facto contraception.
Just as a matter of curiousity, do you consider the “morning after” pill to be contraception or an abortifacient?
Cthulhu,
You’re not still about that? Give it up, mate.
Or maybe acquaint yourself with the meaning of “conception”.
This is a sad case – these two organisatiosn really should be working together. My main fear is that kids in schools won’t understand the reason for the boycott of Amnesty and will have some shadowy concern over it for many years. I doubt they’ll educate themselves as to what the current row is, or have the interest (or balls) to stand up in school and to demand to know ‘why’?
Banning Amnesty is a backward step – I say this as a Catholic who believes abortion is murder.
>>Gram – what is the point of continually mentioning paedophile priests? <<
I continually mention the cover up of paedophile priests and the teaching of contraception in schools as example of where the Church has been prepared to compromise it’s principles.
Dawkins: “You’re not still about that? Give it up, mate. ”
And I said, to be precise, there are a large number of women who are having abortions who are noth the victims of rape, not the victims of incest, not at any risk of physical harm and are carrying babies. These women are having abortions in lieu of using contraception, making it, in their minds, a suitable substitute. As such, they are aborting healthy babies for no other reason than they and their partner couldn’t be bothered to take responsibility in the form of birth control.
Now, as to my question, do you consider the “morning after pill” to be contraception or an abortifacient?
Gum: “Banning Amnesty is a backward step – I say this as a Catholic who believes abortion is murder. ”
So the church should, in your mind, aid and succor Amnesty, knowing that the organization is facilitating abortion, which, in your mind, is murder?
What was the path to hell paved in again?
Dread, this is tiresome. What you imply just doesnt follow from my statement and you know that mate.
Dread Cthulhu,
Well at least they’ve realized it’s a substitute for contraception, not contraception, which would be illogical and contrary to the laws of physics. Perhaps you could learn something from them.
Depends, doesn’t it. If conception has already taken place it’s the latter, if not it’s the former.
BTW are you one of those chaps who believe in the Immaculate Conception?
Gum: “What you imply just doesnt follow from my statement and you know that mate. ”
You said that banning Amnesty (presumably meaning banning Amnesty from church schools) was a backwards step. Now, is not providing those facilities and teacher advisors — in short, allowing them to organize in schools, a form of support? Free meeting space, access to students… it certainly sounds like a form of support to me. Then there is the matter of the implied endorsement of allowing the organization this access.
It is a binary equation, Gum, with little gray area. Amnesty chose to move from a neutral position to one that is pro-abotion. If Amnesty changes their stance, what is inappropriate about the RC Church changing their in response?
Gram – every instance of paedophilia or cover up or promotion of contraception is in direct contravention of Catholic teaching. It makes the individuals concerned sinful, doesn’t make the Church hypocritical. No Catholic school – repeat none, should be promoting contraception.
Gum – not a question of “banning Amnesty” – just saying it’s not compatable with Catholic teaching and therefore can’t operate within Catholic institutions. In the same way that a Rangers Supporters Club mightn’t want to ban Celtic, but wouldn’t exactly want them to operate within the Supporters Club.
Dawkins: “Depends, doesn’t it. If conception has already taken place it’s the latter, if not it’s the former. ”
Now you’re the one being illogical, Dawkins. Had they used contraception, there would be no need for the morning after pill, which is, definitionally, an abortifacient — since you seem to prefer a simple, literal-minded interpretation of terms.
It is dangerous to suggest to thousands of school children that there is something bad about Amnesty International. I understand fully where the church is coming from, but I think such a tragic issue as rape as a weapon of war needs a subtler response. I am very concerned that by going to the extent of banning an organisation that fights against injustice the church risks sending out a very dangerous message to some kids that this organisation that argues for an end to torture is somehow bad.
Dread Cthulhu,
Ergo if it causes the death of a fertilized egg it’s an abortifacient.
So what about the Virgin Mary? Did she or didn’t she flout the laws of physics?
Gum – regretfully, and I say this as someone who was a member of Amnesty until last month, it is now a bad organisation. This represents a useful opportunity for helping children in schools come to understand the issues – on torture, death penalty, rape and abortion – and the importance of having a consistent life ethic which Amnesty doesn’t. You want a subtle response to dealing with pregnancy after rape – what does that mean? As I said elsewhere, who is more defenceless than a child conceived in Darfur. The reason rape is used in war is because the victims are often shunned by their own communities. We should be trying to end this, not be killing the children but by supporting the mothers and saying clearly, no matter what the circumstances of your conception, you have a right to life. In the same way that Amnesty traditionally says, no matter what you have done the State has no right to torture you or execute you. No subtletyy in that stance.
Dawkins, what are you trying to do, cause trouble? Mary flouted several laws. She herself was conceived free from original sin (the Immaculate Conception), though with two human parents, Anne and Joachim, and she conceived Jesus without the intervention of a human father. Fairly simple.
[i]The reason rape is used in war is because the victims are often shunned by their own communities. We should be trying to end this, not be killing the children but by supporting the mothers and saying clearly, no matter what the circumstances of your conception, you have a right to life.[/i]
Hey Splurge, I’m right there with you. I just feel thatremoving Amnesty from our schools means that evils such as torture, unlawful detention etc will be ignored. I know they werent taught in my school. With so many tv shows and books and films depicting acts of torture and vigilanties we need to ensure that our kids are taught that these acts are evil. I’m 100% opposed to abortion, but we risk abandoning people to these horrors I have mentioned if we adopt a knee-jerk reaction to the issue of abortion.
I think a way of saying we fundamentally disagree with their abortion stance but support their efforts in speaking out against torture, rape and other abuses is the best way to ensure our kids are fully rounded responsible adults.
“Another nail in the coffin?”
And there’s more, Joe.
Allister meets EU Ambassador to Vatican
Nevin,
Will Jim fix it? Wonder what his real motives are.
Dawkins, will the Vatican fix it? On this occasion, it appears that the initiative has been taken by the EU ambassador not the MEP:
“Jim Allister MEP has held a meeting in Brussels with the EU’s Ambassador to the Vatican, Dr Luis Ritto. The meeting was held at the Ambassador’s request and follows a long-running campaign, through parliamentary questions, by the Ulster Euro MP to have the Commission formally protest to the Vatican over its handling of clerical child abuse cases.
For 2 years Mr Allister has been pressing the EU to challenge the Vatican on the incompatibility of its infamous document, ‘Crimen Sollicitationis’ with its obligations as a signatory of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC).”
PS Is there an EU constituency called Ulster?
Nevin,
I dunno. But there’s a coat that’s so called.
The Catholic church seems to think that it is impossible to endorse Amnesty without endorsing the whole package, yet it survives because it includes a la carte catholics who do not accept the whole doctrincal package. If every compromise catholic left their schools the schools would collpase. So why not allow Catholic school pupils to be a la carte members of Amnesty, supporting the prisoners and saying nothing about abortion? I had a piece on Talkback about this yesterday: Script below:
There is a Christian injunction to visit the prisoner. It is not like some of those other religious laws which are extrapolated from convoluted Augustinian reasoning by head scratching theologians. No it’s in cold print.
The catholic bishops need reminding of their responsibility to the prisoner because they are currently busy shutting down branches of Amnesty International in Catholic schools, certainly in Northern Ireland, perhaps all over the world.
If anyone has taken the concerns of the prisoner seriously it is Amnesty International.
Thousands of letters are sent by Catholic schoolchildren every year to people who have been banged up in prison cells, in ghastly conditions, in countries that ignore international human rights standards.
Those letters get delivered.
Imagine how a prison governor responds when one of his charges starts receiving bags full of mail from around the world. He reports it to the government and the government starts treading gingerly around this formerly unnoticed celebrity. And imagine how you would feel if after years in a cell wondering if you were ever going to get a trial or even a visit, and suddenly you get postcards telling you to keep your spirits up and that you’ve not been forgotten,. And these postcards are not coming from some consular official or a party ally. No. They are from a wee girl in Twinbrook.
If Bishop Donal McKeown and others who are ordering the closure of school amnesty groups would take a little time to think about the broader range of Christian responsibility that they proclaim to bear, they might devote their energies to finding some kind of compromise that would enable Amnesty’s work to continue instead of sweeping it out of the schools with righteous moral vigour, content that they are standing up to the devil.
The Catholic Church has turned on Amnesty because Amnesty has decided to support the right of a raped woman to terminate a pregnancy.
This is Amnesty’s business because rape is a weapon of war, particularly in interracial war, where you can impose a victory by seeding your own kind among the enemy.
Amnesty has decided that a woman who has been impregnated as an act of violence against her has the right to insist that that violence shall not stand.
The Catholic church is appalled. It regards the abortion of a foetus as an act of violence equivalent to the murder of a child.
Well, that has been argued out for decades and it is an argument that is not going very far. But the church should at least have noticed that not all those who endorse a woman’s right to choose are evil people to be shoved away from them.
Amnesty knew that the Catholic church could not endorse its new policy. It also knew that it was dependent on support groups in Catholic schools.
Bishops don’t get pregnant, so they don’t change their minds on abortion. Sometimes their lovers get pregnant, and then sometimes they do.
But there is no prospect at all of the Catholic Church agreeing with Amnesty International on how to help a raped a woman who is pregnant.
So the collapse of all these services to the prisoner is inevitable?
What next? A fissure between the Catholic Church and Amnesty in its campaigning against capital punishment in the United States? And more lives lost there?
Or a we a bit of human savvy your eminences.
The search for a compromise, in which the hundreds of schoolchildren who have been lifting the spirits of prisoners across the world are not simply stood down on a point of principle that is already clear to everyone.
Thanks to all the considered responses from both sides on this topic. I’m writing as a governor of one of these schools whose own children were members of its Amnesty group while pupils there. I need to gather my thoughts if this is going to come up in the school and I’ve already done some internet research. I’m probably nearest to GUM’s POV at the moment and thank you Malachi for posting that because I didn’t hear Talkback yesterday.
Dawkins: “So what about the Virgin Mary? Did she or didn’t she flout the laws of physics? ”
I keep science and faith seperate. I would no more proclaim the Earth to be 6000 years old — applying religion to science — than I would apply science to religion.
Besides, I think, technically, it would be biology she violated, not physics.
Gum: “It is dangerous to suggest to thousands of school children that there is something bad about Amnesty International. I understand fully where the church is coming from, but I think such a tragic issue as rape as a weapon of war needs a subtler response.”
Ah, but they are not responding to rape as a weapon — that would require criticizing the Koran.
““It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.†Surah 33:52 ”
What the West calls “rape,” their religion deems to be a divine right.
Gum: “I am very concerned that by going to the extent of banning an organisation that fights against injustice the church risks sending out a very dangerous message to some kids that this organisation that argues for an end to torture is somehow bad. ”
Save for the obvious fact that the Church fights the same injustices, Gum. And I am certain the Church can find the time and words to explain that AI is “bad” because it promotes abortion rather than leave the children perplexed.
But for the most part they aren’t “children” they’re young adults with lively, enquiring minds who’ll need a little bit more than being told by the Church that AI is “bad”.
This time last year my youngest was still at school, a member of AI but also preparing for university interviews, involved in the school Politics Society, inter-school debating and so forth. The level of debate amongst her peers is infinitely more mature than some of the whataboutery and pointscoring we sometimes see here.
They deserve a fully-engaged debate on this issue rather than just being “told”.
feismother: “But for the most part they aren’t “children†they’re young adults with lively, enquiring minds who’ll need a little bit more than being told by the Church that AI is “badâ€. ”
And will no doubt use those inquiring minds to ask questions. The long and the short of it is that AI has no right to access either the physical plant or the students in the Catholic school. Likewise, Gum’s argument was that if AI was banned from the schools, they would beileve there was something “wrong” with AI. The argument that “some kids” might think “that this organisation (AI) that argues for an end to torture is somehow bad” if the RC church maintained an internal consistency in what they believe and the organizations the support / tacitly endorse.
If the young adults are as Gum describes, then maybe there is a risk, but that should not prevent the RC Church from excercising its perogatives. If they are as you describe, then there should be nothing to worry about and Gum’s fears are overblown.
feismother: “They deserve a fully-engaged debate on this issue rather than just being “toldâ€. ”
No, they should (and do) have the right to organize elsewhere, if that is their want.
Abortion is debated in Catholic schools. Just as artificial forms of contraception are (not the same thing as being taught them however).
The Catholic Church has schools. I’d rather no churches had schools but there you go. If however we are to allow religions to have schools then it is entirely consistent that they should ban the organisation of groups advocating positions contrary to the religion’s principles. Whether it is political parties, Amnesty, Pagans or whatever.
Pupils can still organise these if they want. They just can’t have access to the schools facilities and support for these groups.
I really fail to see why people are getting so upset.