“If it is a policy regarding one school..”
The BBC has an update to the story I noted previously – on the disbandment of Amnesty International Groups in Catholic schools – which, ahead of the Irish Bishops’ Conference next month, would indicate that all other schools in the Catholic Maintained sector will be advised to follow suit. The BBC report quotes the auxiliary bishop of Down and Connor, Donal McKeown
“If it is a policy regarding one school, it certainly would be a policy regarding all the Catholic schools in the diocese of Down and Connor.”
Garibaldy: “I really fail to see why people are getting so upset. ”
Some are “upset” because it gives them a free swing at religion.
Some are “upset” because it gives them a free swing at the RC Church.
Some are “upset” because they subscribe to positions that require they be upset when their social / political / metaphorical “sacred cows” are not kowtowed to.
Let’s face it, there is a segment of the population that is not “happy” if it is not “upset”
Dread Cthulhu,
Thanks for your reply re the Virgin Mary. I asked only to establish how you define conception. You say you keep science and religion separate but how does this work with the Immaculate Conception?
Do you believe Mary conceived as a virgin? And do you believe she flouted the laws of physics when she was assumed bodily into heaven? Your answers would help me to understand where you’re coming from on contraception.
malachi,
Exactly so. There’s a little too much pontificating on this blog and elsewhere on the position of women raped during warfare. One does indeed wonder what the case might be if the Catholic Church had female bishops and one was to find herself in this horribly distressing situation.
But I might as well discuss my grandmother’s hypothetical testicles.
In an ideal world people who are not committed, practising catholics would not be sending their children to catholic schools. They would feel they had alternatives. But we live in a society in which the interface between church and society is blurred and porous. We go to catholic funerals for our atheist friends, and parents who ‘kind of’feel themselves to be cultural catholics assent to an education system governed by hierarchs who preach strict dogma. Fortunately the teachers in those schools are a la cartes like most of the parents.
Now the same hierarchs say they subscribe to the view that the church is the people, and if they really want to push their power they will lose the people they claim to speak for. In other words, the marriage between people and church in Catholic Ireland is a marriage of convenience, with occasional flashes of intimacy. It is not the kind of marriage that can bear one side geting dogmatic and uncommunicative.
What I do, as a baptised catholic, is declare that I am not a catholic any more at all and opt out. Obviously I think that position has more integrity than trying to muck along with a church in a relationship in which that church perceives itself to be the boss and doesn’t notice that it has to muck along with the people too.
But the a la cartes stay in and it is understandable why. Theologically most of them are, at most, protestant, but they want to access the school system and to feel integrated into a community.
The tragedy is that the church does not notice how accommoating the people are to its oddities. Priests do. Most of them. Bishops don’t, because priests of good sense aren’t promoted.
Now feismother notices that there is a problem, that Paddy Walshe thinks he can conduct himself with this generation they way McQuaid did with the people of Ireland fifty years ago.
Will Walshe get away with it?
Probably. Because most poeple don’t take the church seriously enough even to protest against it.
But for hundreds of young people who have been doing fantastic work for prisoners this will be the breaking point in their relationship with the church. A cynic would regard that as good news.
Actually Malachi I feel that the Church standing by its principles is far and away the best course of action, if the “a la cartes” fall away then so be it, they can join a protestant church or they can renounce religion all together.
You mention the hoary old chestnut of John Charles McQuaid, funny enough his tenure as archbishop coincided with the period when the Irish Catholic Church was at its most popular, with millions of weekly communicants. Ah but you say that was then in old pig thick Ireland when we didn’t know any better, we’re all too sophisticated for that oul’ bollocks now.
Fine, if you believe there is no room in our new squeaky clean, gee whizz, high tech, tigerish Ireland for musty oul’ churches and awkward teachings about morality feel free to reject them either join the nice progressive happy clappy protestant churches with their lesbian bishops, (you know like the ones in America whose congregations are dropping like stones as they are rejected en masse by bible believers enlisting in droves for the evangelicals) or simply decide there is no room in your life for religion, no one is stopping you.
If I was a Catholic I would see that the future does not lie in “kumbaya”, “whatever yer havin’ yerself” religious teaching because curiously enough that is what has been happening for the past thirty years and this has coincided with the precipitous decline in church attendences.
The future of the Catholic Church is to sit tight, stick to their guns, if they preach their message consistently then the congregants will come back, if they don’t, well so be it, continue preaching the message and hope they’ll listen, you’ll be surprised how many will. You cannot base the teachings of a great religion on apppealling to the emotions of adolescents. They may well reject the Church in their youth but it’s amazing how as they get older, get families and meet with life’s problems they suddnely feel a need to return to the solidity of their previous faith.
There’s one thing that the Catholic Church knows how to do and that is to play the long game. For two thousand years its demise has been predicted, I recall how Stalin sneered when told of criticism from the Pope; “How many divisions does the Pope have?”, hmmmm, anyone know the name of the general secretary of the Russian Communist Party these days?
Irish Catholics turning en masse against the Catholic Church might be a novelty, but in the very long history of the Catholic Church impassioned sixth form debaters, a few withering Irish Times editorials appealling to Dublin’s nouveaux riche or droning phone in contributors to Talk Back or the Joe Duffy Show ain’t about to set the Vatican aquiver.
Limbo was a belief taught by the Church, more in my parents generation, though I don’t remember it being mentioned much when I was at school, although I clearly understood what it meant.
To be honest I do not see how the church could find common ground between its position on abortion and that of Amnesty, and there is nothing surprising about what they have done here. That does not mean that I think the church is right. The church is strangling itself with it’s own dogma, and I hope it keeps doing so; it’s useful that people are reminded of the dangers of the dogma of organized religion.
Everyone knows that the RC church is a blatantly hypocritical organization; the issue of abortion, no matter how horrifying it might be, is nothing compared to other matters. For example why was Tony Blair, whose illegal war in Iraq has seen thousands of people killed, given an audience with the Pope to discuss his own conversion to Catholicism ? The RC church have no sense of perspective.
Is this story anything to do with abortion? I read a story in the Observer on Sunday I think, that irish immigrant children were not being admitted to catholic primary schools, which seemed to be demanding catholic baptismal certificates. A non or multi-denominational school which opened up for 30 pupils had 120 show up so that they had to close again. Could amnesty collude with the hierarchy in a situation that looks like racial and religious discrimination?
You’re right Flashman. The church should take the gamble and lose the numbers. And we should have a local reformation. Paddy Walshe was appointed by Rome and elected by nobody to make decisions for the running of local schools. He should be overthrown. It’s amazing that a population that so disdained the brits cans accept a foreign dictatorship.
If the mass of catholics still revered Rome’s rules, then things would be fine, but they have changed. I don’t see that a la carteism as Kumbaya religion. Young people who join amnesty groups may not be religious at all, but they are motivated by conscience and principle in a wholesome way.
Maybe Paddy Walshe, like yourself would be happy to see the Catholic church find its own real mass (no pun intended) and to lose thousands – perhaps millions. It will happen anyway. The indications are that the church does not want that to happen. How often does Sean Brady complain about the catholics of Ireland not being represented in the media, as if he sees them as a coherent body of people separate from the secular world. There is no such separation, except for the purists.
There are two big things that Irish Catholics don’t like, and they are now in tension with each other. they don’t like abortion and they don’t like bishops telling them what to think.
I’m not entirely convinced they’ll stand up to Walshe on this. A precedent was the disciplining of Iggy O’Donovan for inviting a CoI minister to co officiate at mass with him. The a la cartes thought that was lovely and wrote letters to the Irish Times supporting him and poo pooing Sean Brady for saying it wasn’t allowed. But when Brady humiliated O’Donovan and forced an apology, the a la cartes were nowhere to be see.
It’s not a matter of taking a gamble Malachi.
It’s about professing what you think.
Some churches have a policy now of saying absolutely nothing.
In that world, yes, there is no seperateness from secularism and as such there is no role for religion and they are losing numbers at a faster rate than anyone.
That is the goal of what many posters want.
I’m sorry, but the Church you left has no plans to be silent and irrelevent.
Do you honestly believe that anyone inside the church will listen to someone who wants to see it destroyed regarding on how it should conduct itself. Does that make any sense to you at all ?
If letter writing to prisoners by Catholic students is such a big issue for you Malachi i’m sure the Church will be very receptive to your suggestions to keep that continuuing.
But you have made no moves to seperate that part of your posts (the sensible part) from the other part, of a continuation of your criticising an organisation you left on behalf of its members, whom you also left that don’t have your (quote) “integrity”.
You have that choice, but at some stage you should realise that people have made other choices. Those choices are just as valid as yours and they are not going to curtail their principles in their own organisation just because they disagree with you.
Comrade, i could be wrong, but wasn’t the meeting between the Pope and Blair reported as a criticism by the Pope of Blairs activities in Iraq ? Isn’t that fair enough ?
The Pope has been one of the leaders that has consistently been against military involvement in Iraq and from what i hear re-enforced that to both Bush and Blair personally. Good on him.
Dawkins – despite my previous best efforts you keep confusing the Virgin Birth (Mary conceving Jesus without a human father) and the Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived in the womb of her mother Anne with the sperm of her father Joachim through normal sexual intercourse but without original sin). Both involved a direct and particular intervention by God – I don’t think I would call it flouting of the laws of physics or biology since God established those laws and can therefore over-ride them.
Malachi – usual old rant from you. I hear you managed to infiltrate a Catholic school in Bangor this week -how’d that go? Did the teacher discover who you were and throw you out. Was she some old dear who thought you were a poet or something?
Splurge,
I’m an idiot. When you put it that way of course it all make perfect sense.
BTW why are you answering for Mr. Cthulhu? Are you and he one and the same peep, a result of God’s overriding his own laws of biology?
And your ad hominem attack on Malachi may not be against God’s laws but does contravene Slugger’s. I’d be interested to know why you call his post a “rant”.
Dawkins – definitely not Cthulhu. I came back in on this cos I explained yesterday that Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth weren’t the same but message slow getting through.
As regards Malachi – no way could you call my comment an “ad hominem attack”. Do you not realise that anyone who disagrees with me “rants”. and lapsed Catholics (probably hates that term) tend to rant more than others. But I enjoy Malachi – good way with words and his description of a la carte Catholics and their relationship with schools and church was spot on. His solution is for everyone to become a la carte – mine is for everyone to be honest and take the consequences.
Splurge,
Read my posts again. Nowhere did I confuse the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth. In fact I referenced three separate mythological occurrences, the third being the bodily Assumption.
Malachi, you and others refer to “a la carte” Catholics, ie those people who wish to pick and choose their theological and moral positions according to their own individual consciences, as if they are a relatively new phenomenon.
Believe it or not such people have existed for centuries now, they are curently numbered in their millions and hundreds of thousands of them already live in Ireland they even have their own churches, schools and religious institutions, they are called ‘protestants’.
If an individual member of the Catholic Church feels in all conscience that they cannot live with certain aspects of the Vatican’s teachings then they are under no obligation to follow them however they need to stop deluding themselves that they are Catholics, they aren’t, and the sooner they own up to this and realign their place of worship on Sundays the better it will be for all concerned.
Dawkins – you said “You say you keep science and religion separate but how does this work with the Immaculate Conception?
Do you believe Mary conceived as a virgin? And do you believe she flouted the laws of physics when she was assumed bodily into heaven?”
I drew a connection between your reference to the Immaculate Conception and your immediate follow up question on the Virgin Birth. Clearly you didn’t intend to connect them in this why, hence the new paragraph. As regards Assumption, same answer as before, God made everything so he can do what he wants so long as not logically impossible (like making someone older than himself or a stone too heavy for him to lift).
Flashman – mostly agree with you but the problem is that there aren’t protestant chuches/ecclesial communions that give them what they want – bit of the Pope when they want, First Communions and Confirmations with no questions asked and no hard requests for money.
It definately was an ad hominem attack on Malachi. You went completely off topic to have a needless swipe at him regarding his personal life. It would be similar to be saying that you are the biggest idiot I’ve ever seen posting here and thats one fecking hell of a horse race considering my interactions with crumb and others.
I’m genuinely currious about the RCC position on this, do they have a lot of say in other after school clubs D&D for example and what about classes, do they allow evolution to be taught in science?
Pounder – wise up wee lad. A “needless swipe at him regarding his personal life”. That sounds like a said something about his wife or drinking or gambling instead of which I referred to his visiting a school. Hardly an attack and I’m sure he wouldn’t remotely regard it as an attack. He’s a big fella you know, wears long trousers and can tie his own laces.
Catholic schoools follow the curriculum and only make adjustments as allowed for ethos – which means they do not have to promote contraception (though clearly some teacher do). In science they will study the theory of evolution if it’s on the curriculum and in Religious Education they will study Genesis if it’s on the curriculum.
All clubs and societies within the school should be compatable with the ethos of the school. So no Gay and Lesbian Societies.
But doesn’t the science of evolution contradict the RCC teachings far more than AI do for not having a comment one way or the other on abortion?
Pounder,
If I may? My reading of the RCC is that they’re not as fundamental as say the Evangelicals, who take the Bible literally.
I believe a Catholic will say something like: “OK, God created the world in six days but of course those weren’t terrestrial days, and the Creation story is largely allegorical.” This is a far healthier approach that leaves the way open to the teaching of evolution.
Jeeze, never thought I’d see myself defending the RCC :0)
Dawkins: “Thanks for your reply re the Virgin Mary. I asked only to establish how you define conception. You say you keep science and religion separate but how does this work with the Immaculate Conception? ”
Y’know, as a lapsed Episcopal, I don’t really think about it much. Since you don’t, why do you worry so that someone else might?
At issue in this story are rights — the right of the RC Church to hold a position and act on those beliefs, regardless of the antics of those tribalists lining up for some free shots and those agony aunts wringing their hands about the perceived injustice of it all.
If you don’t like the role the RC Church has in education, agitate to have the system changed. If you want the youths to have someplace to organize the AI chapter, get involved and volunteer.
>>Catholic schoools follow the curriculum and only make adjustments as allowed for ethos – which means they do not have to promote contraception (though clearly some teacher do). <<
So if the ethos of the school is to encourage free and independent thinking of its pupils it can tell the RCC to butt out and allow it’s pupils to organise an Ai group.
Gram – the ethos of the school is set by the owners, patrons and management authorities of the school. If it’s a Catholic school then it has a Catholic ethos. It may also encourage free and independent thinking by its pupils – this does not translate into free and independent action such as having institutions within the school which are contrary to Catholic teaching such as Amnesty.
>>It may also encourage free and independent thinking by its pupils – this does not translate into free and independent action such as having institutions within the school which are contrary to Catholic teaching such as Amnesty.<<
But I don’t understand. You said they are allowed to make their own decisions around the teaching of contraception. Is this not contrary to catholic teaching?
Gram – you misunderstood me on contraception. what I meant was that a Catholic school using a State curriculum on, say Social, Personal and Health Education or whatever it’s called, should talk about sex in the context of the Church’s teaching and not promote contraception and sex outside marriage. clearly based on other comments some teachers in some Catholic schools DO promote contraception. this is against the ethos of a Catholic school and the teacher does not have the freedom to do this. of course contraception can be discussed without being promoted. A good teacher might explain the difference between natural family planning and contraception and the reason for the Church’s teaching. this isn’t the same as showing a class how to use a condom or neglecting to tell them the failure rates for contraception when used by drunken teenagers – very high in case you were wondering.
gram: “But I don’t understand.”
To break it down to simplest terms, its why you you don’t find Pepsi coupons on Coca-Cola six-packs.
Those that contol the podium get to set the message. They are under no obligation to dilute their own message, not provide implicit endorsements or assistance to organizations whose policies are not in line with their own.
If you do not want the RC Church involved in education, feel free to agitate to change the system. If you are afraid the youths will not have a place to hold their meetings, volunteer and help organize.
Dread Cthulhu,
I introduced the issue of the Immaculate Conception simply because you seemed a little unclear on what actual conception entails. It wasn’t at all my intention to deviate from the topic.
Dawkins: “I introduced the issue of the Immaculate Conception simply because you seemed a little unclear on what actual conception entails. It wasn’t at all my intention to deviate from the topic. ”
Dawkins, if you didn’t understand a metaphorical or colorful turn of phrase, you should have felt free to ask. I would cheerfully explained the parts you didn’t grasp. You would have saved yourself ever so much typing.
Seriously — you haven’t been the same since the Spiderman joke blew up in your face.
>>To break it down to simplest terms, its why you you don’t find Pepsi coupons on Coca-Cola six-packs.
Those that contol the podium get to set the message. They are under no obligation to dilute their own message, not provide implicit endorsements or assistance to organizations whose policies are not in line with their own.
<<
To continue your fizzy lemonade comparison. Do you not think that a coca-cola employee putting pepsi coupons in six packs would be fired? I don’t see catholic schools firing teachers who they know teach contraception. I would enjoy seeing them try to defend that in court.
I now look forward to the bishop’s future messages preventing pupils from wearing Nike sportswear, made by underage workers and instructing catholic priests not to use aeroplanes that contribute to climate change?
gram: “Do you not think that a coca-cola employee putting pepsi coupons in six packs would be fired?”
Writ small and in the short term, maybe not… but it will go into his file and be a part of the proceedings against him at a later date. But, writ large, an act that would undermine the product’s integrity — not merely fired but subjected to legal proceedings.
gram: ” I don’t see catholic schools firing teachers who they know teach contraception. I would enjoy seeing them try to defend that in court. ”
Ah, but my analogy had nothing to do with contraception, but permitting AI access to the school. However, its a slow day.
As a rule, just about any worker can be fired, if the boss is willing to jump through enough hoops. Teaching about contraception, with the possible exception of health class, is readily filed under “insubordination.” I’d be curious to hear an English or Chemistry instructor defend teaching about contraception. It would be a neat trick.
Oh, and for the record, the RC Church wouldn’t have to fire the teacher to make their point. If the instructor in question were clerical personnel, they could readily be re-assigned — how about a leper colony in India? If they were laity, simply move them to a grade where such discussion would be sufficiently outre.
gram: “I now look forward to the bishop’s future messages preventing pupils from wearing Nike sportswear, made by underage workers and instructing catholic priests not to use aeroplanes that contribute to climate change? ”
I think you’re confusing the RC Church’s agenda with AI’s.
Dread Cthulhu,
What phrase was that?
????
The one that ended…
“Shit, my spide joke misfired :0(
Posted by Dawkins on Aug 26, 2007 @ 04:16 AM”
Besides, if you really want to comedy, your punchline *has* to be worth the wind-up.
There is a middle school quality to yours above, which is something of a let-down, given — its too labored and doesn’t really flow.
Comedy, as a rule, only *looks* easy. Its a bit like boxing — your lines have to have some snap to them, like a good jab, but the punch-line *has* to be a knock-out if your set-up is going to be that long.
Dread Cthulhu,
Unlike you, I’m reluctant to resort to petty ad hominem remarks, so I’ll say the following and leave it at that.
You seem to me to be a humourless individual as well as a peep who can’t let well enough alone. You also don’t seem to understand the difference between a joke blowing up in a chap’s face and a joke misfiring. I suggest you google the first. My line re the spide joke, which uncannily you remembered long after I’d forgotten I even made it, was tongue in cheek and self-deprecating. I suggest you google both of those as well.
What is your motivation for those posts anyhow? Are you peeved that I pointed out your misconception of contraception? It’s OK. I don’t think any the worse of you. Don’t sweat it. Egos aren’t everything you know.
Now, can we get back to the subject? If not, do let me know sometime what you meant by “a metaphorical or colorful turn of phrase” of yours I misinterpreted.
>>As a rule, just about any worker can be fired, if the boss is willing to jump through enough hoops. Teaching about contraception, with the possible exception of health class, is readily filed under “insubordination.†I’d be curious to hear an English or Chemistry instructor defend teaching about contraception. It would be a neat trick.<<
Health Class?? Strange I was taught about contraception during Biology lessons. Obviously you weren’t which goes a long way to explain the difficulty you’ve had understanding the subject of contraception during this thread.
Gram,
Perhaps Mr. Cthulhu was educated in the USA, where a different system obtains :0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII