If one defection is unlucky; to lose two is downright careless. This column from the Southern Star almost anticipates the defection of Daniel Callanan, and reports widespread disaffection amongst Sinn Fein councillors with the directions from the top of the party to support Labour candidates in the Seanad elections. Not a disaster, but perhaps an intimation of the limits of ‘democratic centralism’?
As part of NICVA’s series of masterclasses from its Centre for Economic Empowerment project, there was a morning seminar on the topic of the “creative class” (as popularised by Richard Florida) and its applicability to Northern Ireland. The agenda was to: Explain Richard Florida’s idea of the “creative class” and the link between economic outcomes [...] read our review »
Ireland is in the middle of a boom – a running boom. Chances are, even if you have never run a step yourself (apart from some painful P.E. classes many moons ago), someone you know has taken up running over the last little while. Road races in Northern Ireland and in the Republic have seen [...] read our review »
Jimmy Fleming is defecting to a right-wing Conservative party, so if that’s the price to pay for a closer relationship with Labour, then bring it on is what I say. The core rank and file of the party remain united behind party policy.
Obviously Joan O’Connor won’t feel her feet on the fire if the above is anything to go by.
Having a coherent line and efficient organisation (rather than democratic centralism proper) is surely what got these councillors elected in the first place, and enabled the growth of PSF. The same is true of the DUP. One need only look at the disaster that is the UUP to see the need for discipline within a party. The attrition of a small number of discontented people is inevitable in any party, and now that PSF has expanded they are more likely to be elected.
The two councillors seem to have left for different reasons. It still amazes me that anyone who thinks they are a socialist could ever have joined PSF in the first place but we are seeing the shedding of that element in the south. They are too isolated and disorganised to represent any threat to PSF’s growth. Rather the threat to that, as the article points out, comes from the bland policies and managerialist approach of the party as a whole. Why vote for them when there are bigger parties more likely to direct government policy?
They are too isolated to represent any threat to provisional sinn feins growth.
Err….what growth is that?
PSF Rejected at the last election.
Labour rejected at the last election.
These has beens are a threat to nobody.
“Responding to speculation on Politics.ie yesterday about him joining Fianna Fail, his response was simply “hell would freeze over” – Cllr Callanan said that many people who are leaving Sinn Fein are doing so not simply because of disillusionment with the party, but they are not going to other parties, more to activist groups such as Eirigi.”
Of course Éirigà is now a political party. Perhaps that message is not getting across.
“However, Cllr Callanan made a point that if all SF councillors had followed the pact, Labour’s Alex White would have received 26 more votes than he actually got”
I don’t know the maths that would substantiate or deny that claim but doesn’t that mean almost half of SF’s councillors in the RoI potentially didn’t follow the instructions?
Sinn Féin in disarray?
Fair deal, u halfwit, SF has a lot more than 52 councillors in the south!!! lordy lord…
I’m not sure of the maths either FD, but surely it could just as easily mean that not all Labour Cllrs followed orders?
Jim
I took the figure from elections ireland that says in the last local government elections SF won 54 seats.
http://www.electionsireland.org/results/local/2004local.cfm
MS
Maybe.
Jim,
SF had 58 Seanad votes – 4 TDs and 54 County Councillors.
The combined SF(58), Labour(125) vote should be 183.
Alex White received 161 first preference votes.
The leaves 22 Sinn Fein votes unaccounted for.
Thoses are 54 county council seats. The town council seats aren’t included in this figure.
Liam
Thanks, do you know what the figure is with town councillors?
AFAIK it is only city and county councillors (not town councillors) that make up the senate electoral panels? Am I mistaken?
Correction
AFAIK it is only city and county councillors (not town councillors) that are included in the senate electoral panels?
FD,
Only TDs, County/City Councillors and outgoing members can vote. (Panels is the term used to describe the candidates nominated in each section – http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,3724,en.pdf)
Thanks ummmm so my use of 54 was the relevant figure but the description of that figure as “SF’s councillors in the RoI” was mistaken.
The Gorey Echo notes that Cllr Maurice Roche is also a defection target for FF.
http://www.goreyecho.ie/news/story.asp?j=27301&cat=news
The 26 figure is a quote from Cllr Callannan himself this avo.
D.
I bet old man paisley wishes his defectione were so slight
22 out of 58 is around a third.
Callanan is an able young Galway solicitor, straightforward and honest, a potential TD, who is regularly tortured to within an inch of his sanity by the local Labour loonies.
I think a combination of young family duties, a realisation that local govt. in the South is a really bad comic opera, and that 3 people are allowed to think in SF, has led young Danny to the conclusion that if the people of Galway get the politicians they deserve, they don’t deserve him.
If so, he has a point.
Garibaldy,
This is a bit cheeky but I wonder if you enlighten me as to your own brand of politics/party whatever?
You seem to have it in for people who don’t fit your definition of being a socialist.
Garibaldy is, Red Haze, a Pure Socialist. That means he would never sully himself by actually taking a position on any thing. His job is to sit back and point out to imperfect socialists, like me – poor deluded fool that I am, where they have erred. I don’t know how I’d get along without him and without his constantly putting me right I would probably get a swollen head and take over the world and create a workers’ paradise and make everybody happy.
And that would never do.
Redhaze and Rory,
I don’t think that was cheeky at all; it was a statement of my attitude, the reasons for which I’ll elaborate on below. As for pure socialism. Clearly in today’s world we must be flexible and adapt to realities. Pragmatism is important. However, so are basic principles. The first principle of socialism is workers unity. So I personally cannot square membership of or support for a movement that has consistently defined itself as representing the “Catholic/nationalist people”; or that intimidated and attacked the ICTU during the Hunger Strikes; never mind a movement that has carried out repeated murders of ordinary workers for their religion. And while we’re at it, nor could I ever support an organisation which, according to its chief press officer has no problem with capitalism, and whose President shows Jesse Helms round west Belfast and seeks approval and support from the White House, while implementing a at best centre-left agenda in government (left in some ways, but right in terms of PFI etc).
I could go on but I think I’ve made my point. Personally I cannot reconcile any of these things with socialism. And hence the problem I have with ÉirigÃ, the IRSP and such like. They all remain locked within a worldview that is fundamentally a tribalist one. I see this as a problem, because the presence of these groups has the potential to hinder the possibility of creating a serious socialist force in Ireland once again. In much the same way that the strength of Trotskyism in Britain damaged the possibility of mobilising coordinated and effective resistance to Thatcher.
This isn’t, as Rory seems to think, a brand of ultra-leftist “my socialism is purer than yours” based on the interpretation of a scribbled note from Marx 150 years ago. Nor is it like an argument over whether the upper tax rate should be 40 or 50 pence. It is about people’s lives.
Sectarian violence and tribal attitudes have cost thousands of lives, and pushed the possibility of a democratic, secular, socialist unitary state further away than ever. Confronting and opposing sectarianism in all its forms and from wherever it comes is not a matter of doctrinal interpretation but of fundamental strategy and responsiblity that a socialist must take in a divided society like NI. All my positions flow from this analysis.
However, clearly you two see things differently. Perhaps we can discuss why. Cooperation on the broad left is more important than ever, and I have and will continue to work with people whose visions are far different from mine, from PSF to the PUP. But that still doesn’t mean I have to think their policies are consistent with how I interpret socialist and republican principles.
Thank you for that manifesto, Garibaldy. I have no doubt but that you are right and I am wrong.
I had always worked on the assumption that building socialism, like my old occupation of digging tunnels or building bridges was a human enterprise and, as such, that it was long and hard and dirty, with little reward and carried out in the company of other men, some of whom were not fully committed to the end goal, merely along for the ride, or the desperation of a need for the wages or others who just simply did not find the stamina and all overseen by greedy, miserable, incompetent bosses. But somehow we’d get the job done together and when people flushed their toilets the shit would wash away and traffic was able to flow over our bridges.
Of course those tunnels and bridges need constant supervision and continuous repair, they ain’t perfect. But they are as good as imperfect united human enterprise was able to make them at the time and, as old Erich Fromm would have recognised, the idea was good.
Fair enough Rory. One of my failings is certainly not knowing when to shut up. I’ll take it that what you mean is that the stages you envisage are not unity of the people leading to independence but rather independence leading to unity of the people. And that therefore you can reconcile support for an organisation that has divided the people in pursuit of that independence.
Couldn’t agree more about the long, hard slow struggle to build socialism, especially in current conditions. And the need for cooperation with people whose ideas are not all the same, as I said. But again, each of us draws the line as to what constitutes acceptable people to support according to our interpretation.
And by the way, your references to inevitably imperfect human beings make you sound a lot like a certain Edumnd Burke.
Garibaldy
Whilst we socialists differ on some issues our long term aims and hopes for the future seem much the same. I feel if working class people are to be represented in the political chancellories we leftist have to put what unites us to the fore, whilst attempting to find away to put our differences aside for the common good. Not easy but not impossible and increasingly the political situation demands it as do the needs of those we claim to represent..
Mick Hall,
As I say we do need cooperation, and some form of left electoral pact, however loose, looks likely at some point in the future, more perhaps in the north than south. I’m in favour of a wider, broadly progressive pact in the north. The European campaign provided a workable model.
Garibaldy,
Thanks for that, but I did ask you in particular about party allegiance. Do you have one, have you had one in the past?
See when other people expose their allegiances the easiest thing in the world is to pick holes in their history.
Any chance we could benefit from this advantage as well.
Got a history?
Again the bungling McGuiness/Adams autocracy have struck with more human resource disasters abound- instead of defecting to Eirigi now its FF and an independant.
These pair have such a ultra tight reign on all others that when their usually myopic projects misfire or are not explained properly and in democratic fashion grass roots members leave in despair as no alternative sanity is allowed to prevail.
Either that or their members just can’t hack watching corrupt provie bosses living it up whilst the national question remains gridlocked in Stormont…
Being in SF in the South seems like a bit of waste of time to be honest.
19- you have hit the nail on the head apart from about 8 or 9 constituencies but if they don’t replace Dumbo Snodaigh that will shrink further and their attempts to gain a foothold in Dublin will have been totally reversed into the oblivion.
CTN, if you knew as much about Dublin Sinn Féin as you pretend to, you’d know that if Aengus were got rid of he’d take a huge chunk of the cúige with him.
BTW, Mick, what happened to the “ball not man” rule?
Hi Wed,
You refer to getting rid of Dumbo, I only suggested he was replaced as a Leinster House candidate as he is such a poor public performer.
In relation to my knowledge of DSF- I know they lost 27,000 votes in 3 years- in spite of new counilors and a new MEP.
What about this eirigi group who sprung from DSF- now they have linked with Bernhard Fox- the man that Adams sent down to quell dissension by speaking at hunger strike and easter commemorations claiming that “the struggle was ongoing”- it looks like Dumbo would have less people to bring with him if he was like YOU say gotten “rid of”….
Wednesday- Why can’t ya see it’s because of talentless local leaders like O’Snodaigh that DSF are in electoral retreat?
BTW the Sindo- perhaps not the fairest commentator on SF reckons more high profile defections are imminent.
CTN, I’m not going to get into a semantics argument with you over “replace” vs. “get rid of”. You know very well that if we did the former we would be widely accused of doing the latter. Not least by you, I’d imagine.
It’s actually a bit funny – in the wake of the general election we were told that our poor result in Dublin Central was due to the perception that we’d REPLACED a hard working representative who commanded respect from local republicans with someone who would be more appealing to people who’d never voted for us to begin with. Now you and Hib are saying that that’s exactly what we should do in DSC. As I keep saying … damned if you do, damned if you don’t!
Now that you’ve finished your semantics lecture- let me tell you I’ve no sympathy for a member of a party which sheds its membership on a constant basis rather than having a leadership election, unless that member is trying to overthrow which is now an incredibly incompetent autocracy.
Indeed SF are damned at the moment- however your comparison with the lifelong Cabra resident Nicky Keogh and Dumbo Snodaigh who only moved into his constituency around 2000 is incongruous.
These are the facts Wed- lets not PRETEND otherwise…
Here’s a fact for you, CTN. We have a leadership election every year.
Now why don’t you go and ask your pretend friends in Éirigà what Aengus’s stature is within DSF, and what would happen to the local organisation if there was any suggestion that he was being pushed aside.
I have no interaction with or pretend friends in Eirigi and would not regard them as sole authority on Dumbo.
In general Dumbo is regarded as the worst speaker in the Dail- he clings on to a 5 seater with 69 votes after initially being comfortably elected with only a 2 year campaign as a mere unknown candidate he is also fancied to lose 2 councilors 1 in Ballyfermot after Smithers retired from Dublin Corporation and another co-optee in SWIC who has no local organisation to back her up as that cumman resigned en-mass- and could not be reformed to full functionality- not much of a builder is he?
His position as the only elected SF TD in Dublin is injurious to DSF as he is such an appalling speaker.
Regarding your annual election- it’s about as democratic as one from behind the old iron curtain…
I wonder will Sean Mc be at this years “democratic” election?
1. Joe Higgins was regarded as the best speaker in the Dáil and that didn’t save his seat.
2. The drop in Aengus’s vote this time around could be attributed to a number of factors, many of which have nothing to do with him personally.
3. Fancied by whom. Nobody has a clue at the moment how the 2009 elections will turn out. There is in fact a local organisation in SWIC.
4. The leadership election is as democratic as we could possibly make it, in view of the regular refusal of any leadership opponents to put their own names forward, as they’re perfectly free to do. How do you suggest we get around this, by forcing people to run against Adams, or what?
5. I don’t see why Sean Mac Manus wouldn’t be at the Ard Fheis next year seeing as he is and remains a party member, Sindo shit-stirring notwithstanding.
Common sense dictates the two councilors which are co-opted have less time to make a personal impact against the likes of Brid Smith anti-bin tax candidates.
Many many people are leaving and have left SF claiming it’s not democratic- Adams is protected by a pretorian guard and many wouldn’t dare stand against him although now that some of his right hand men like Bernhard Fox as well as Darkie Hughes have turned on him this is changing.
Your local organisation in SWIC is totally ineffective compared to several years back….
“Your local organisation in SWIC is totally ineffective compared to several years back….”
Hmmm, as a member of the cumann in that area I’d take issue with this. In 2005 Andrew O’Connell, the councillor we elected in the Locals, had to stand down. Andrew had moved out of Dublin and was about to get married and felt he couldn’t stay on as a councillor.
While there was a bit of a lull during the confusion of sorting out a replacement, we now have a situation where the cumann is stronger than it has been since before the 2002 election both in terms of numbers and quality of activists.
We have an outstanding local councillor in CrÃona Nà Dhálaigh and we’ve shifted tens, and I mean ‘tens’ of thousands of leaflets since polling day informing people of local Council issues in our own ward.
We had a very successful poker night as a fundraiser last Friday and all are welcome when we hold it again on the 28th. Just drop me an email.
And with that shameless bit of advertising….
What is SWIC?
Slug,
South West Inner City.
————-
And just to clarify: CTN’s analysis of éirÃgà and SF is his alone and would, to my knowledge, not be shared by members of either group. There seems to be a deliberate or accidental attempt to infer bad blood between the two organisations, this isn’t the case.
Those that joined éirÃgà from SF, other groups or none did so for one reason – they agree with the positions, principles and tactics of the party. The internal issues of other groups or their strategies are an issue for them alone and of little interest or relevance to the growing band of activists endorsing éirÃgÃ.
Checking the éirÃgà website will show the sole focus of the party is building its own brand of Socialist Republican politics and petty attacks on other groups aren’t part of that project.
Also, the possible perception of an organisation only based in Dublin would be completely wrong.
Adams is protected by a pretorian guard and many wouldn’t dare stand against him
Well tell us, since you know so much, who exactly are the SF members who wanted to stand against him but didn’t dare?
Ivor Bell was the first and last to challenge him.
Risen- I dislike SF and sympathise with eirigi any so called inference is entirely mispercieved by those who mispercieve it- I for one am aware that eirigi members still have good friendships with some SF members.
Although the emergence of eirigi is hurting SF in Dublin- I have never insinuated anything else.
Justin- perhaps if you stopped playing poker you wouldn’t be taking such a tankin of the electorate in Dublin- your vote is well down in your constituency and no amount of spin about bits of lulls can mask that fact.
Wed- I believe FRU has answered you- we all know what happened to poor Ivor and that challengers to the McGuinness/Adams autocracy are smeared or sidelined- many founding provos have left that party stating this fact- it will be interesting to hear what Bernard Fox says at the eirigi Thomas Ashe commemeration….
I doubt Bernard Fox will put the boot into anyone. He left for his reasons, made them clear internally, and is currently doing his own thing.
No-one should mischief make about him or eirigi.
They are both clearly capable of speaking for themselves and what I personally like and admire aobut both is the positive way they have gone about their business.
Neither put the ‘mix in’ rather they do work which they feel is worthwhile and that is their strength.