If one defection is unlucky; to lose two is downright careless. This column from the Southern Star almost anticipates the defection of Daniel Callanan, and reports widespread disaffection amongst Sinn Fein councillors with the directions from the top of the party to support Labour candidates in the Seanad elections. Not a disaster, but perhaps an intimation of the limits of ‘democratic centralism’?
Interesting BBC article on an upcoming presentation and talk [Roe Valley Arts and Cultural Centre, 17 August] by lecturer and broadcaster Stephen Price on the subject of his new book – The Earl Bishop. The 18th Century ”Earl Bishop” was Frederick Augustus Hervey, fourth Earl of Bristol and Church of Ireland Bishop of Derry. Hervey was also elected [...] read our review »
Northern Ireland’s peace process has been promoted as an international success story. The Republic’s Department of Foreign Affairs has its Conflict Resolution Unit, which aims to disseminate the ‘lessons’ of the Northern Ireland peace process. And some of the prominent players in our peace process have travelled abroad to other troubled spots to share their [...] read our review »
I’ve been catching up on some reading, recently. Most pleasantly surprised by John Drennan’s latest opus from Gill and Macmillan, Cute Hoors and Pious Protestors… It’s early days yet, but I was struck by this paragraph, part of a dissection of Fianna Fail near the beginning: One of the more fatal consequences of our colonial [...] read our review »
I believe FRU has answered you
No he hasn’t and neither have you.
Red- Facts are people are leaving SF of a high caliber like B.F. and the creators of eirigi because of the stance that organisation has taken.
Stating facts is not making mischief and SF members would be doing the smarter thing by making their leadership more accountable, preventing disasters like Adams on Prime Time and the subsequent loss of members instead of shooting at messengers.
It will be interesting to hear if Bernhard states the strategy he once endorsed now has republicans gridlocked as it would ratify a lot of doubts many have about griz & co to deliver real progress to a UI.
Wed- FRU and I referred an individual Adams completely shafted for standing up to him and it is this culture which exists in your party that I’ve illustrated in answering your question- again you would be doing the smarter thing trying to limit the excesses of a dated leadership instead of shooting at messengers….
Wed,
Do you deny Ivor Bell and the good old girl Annie challenged Adams when he began to manourvre the good ship IRA down the very long and winding British garden path to 3 houses, two business and a very thick wallet.
Bell made it very clear to the PAC that Adams was not to be trusted and he was a very good friend of Adams and his tout ridden family at that time.Bell knew then what the world will eventually find out about the Hannaway clan and his very good friends, the worlds luckiest man, wee Martin and his very ugly brother.
His punishment for that Challenge? well genuine Republicans with a genuine desire for a united Ireland know that answer!!
Onwards to Westminster! Oh I meant the Dail, wrong turn.Sorry.
Slan
FRU
Ive reiterated my position on this thread enough guys and girls so its toodle pip!
Red Haze
Myself I feel that it is time for the comrades within eirigi and SF to go their own way and we will let the electorate decide. Although there can be little doubt the inability of the SF leadership to prevent a split in dublin SF showed there shortcomings and inability to compromise with comrades who have different ideas to their own as to how the movement can progress. But we are where we are as the saying goes.
However, and I say this in a comradely manner, please spare us the mischief making spiel. You cannot be blind to the fact that this is just the language that was used to try and intimidate SFs republican opponent in the not to distant past and indeed it was one of the reasons that led to the split in the first place.
As to Ivor Bell, there is little doubt that the events surrounding Ivor’s departure from the PRM have turned out to be a major turning points as far as the movements political direction SF is concerned. The very mention of the man’s name may well send a shudder down some prominent members of SF spine, however SF is now operating in the democratic arena and I am afraid within such an environment it is not possible to have ones cake and eat it.
What’s the difference between Eirigi and Sinn Fein?
it is this culture which exists in your party that I’ve illustrated in answering your question
You mean in evading my question. You haven’t answered it at all, instead you’ve tried to move the goalposts. First it was
“you have no leadership election”
then it was
“you have a leadership election but it’s not democratic because people want to stand against Adams but are afraid to do so”
now it’s
“OK I don’t actually know of anyone who wanted to stand against Adams, but hypothetically speaking, if such a person existed, they might be afraid to do so.”
Which is quite a different thing to your first statement, isn’t it? I’m still wondering which people exactly you think these are?
Wed.
Care to comment upon Adams / Bell challenge ?
DK,
I’ll not go into differences, I’ll offer a quote from an Englishman, make of it what you will:
“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”
‘Imperialism – Britain and Ireland’
SF don’t have democratic elections- people like Ivor Bell who stand up against Adams are shafted- I fail to understand why keeps Wed misses the point…
Sorry typo should be
understand why Wed keeps…
FRU
Ivor Bell’s time was well before mine and I have no personal knowledge of what went on there – although neither, I suspect, do most of the others commenting on this thread.
Hib
The point is that youse are assuming that the only reason there hasn’t been a leadership challenge in recent years is due to this so-called intimidation, and yet you can’t even offer a single suggestion as to who might have been intimidated out of making a challenge.
As you say you do not have any personal knowledge of the Bell precedent.
What about all the people who have left- Darkie Hughes, John Kelly, Gerry McGeough, Bernhard Fox, Tony Gorman, Anthony McIntyre, Tommy McKearney and the organised dissenters- all of these people except Berhard who has not yet spoken publicly regard SF as an autocratic shambles.
These were largely the provisional movement’s backbone nationally and the founders of eirigi its backbone in Dublin.
I am not trying to smart alec you but c’mon- something is seriously wrong with a group that loses that amount of people and then nosedives electorally after the much hyped positive publicity around St Andrews after its leadership claimed it would treble its seats…..
Risen – seems from the link that the only difference is that Sinn Fein are in favour of St. Andrews and Eirigi is not. The rest of the anti-imperialism & anti-british stuff could be written by either of them.
Maybe I should ask how does Eirigi differ from 32 county sovereignty committe & the other dissident republican political groups?
Mick Hall,
“However, and I say this in a comradely manner, please spare us the mischief making spiel. You cannot be blind to the fact that this is just the language that was used to try and intimidate SFs republican opponent in the not to distant past and indeed it was one of the reasons that led to the split in the first place.”
I accept fully that this is done in a comradely fashion and i’ll follow on in the same suit.
I am a former member of the aforementioned movement and certainly will not attempt to silence nor intimidate anyone. The more peopel speak out the better.
However, whilst I would normally be in agreemnt with CTN’s posts this time round there is the distinct smell of mischief or mixing, which is all the more unwelcome as CTN is speaking of people whom are not of his aquaintance (Bernard Fox)and groups he is not a member of (SF or eirigi).
My issue with this is that Bernard Fox and eirigi do not indulge in this combative activity with SF. Indeed both still have friends and comrades within SF and have no axe to grind with SF on the ground.
Obviously they both have disagreements with SF direction but they do not attack SF. They have engaged in new projects, which are positive and are not based around attacking or obsessing with Adams or SF. This is where other dissenting opinions have fallen down in my opinion.
Furthermore one of CTN’s posts seemed to allude that Bernard Fox had joined eirigi which is patently not the case. He was asked to speak at a commemmoration for another Irish Republican Hunger Striker and agreed. Thats it.
Whilst Bernard speaking at the commemmoration is quite a coup for eirigi CTN’s posts seem to go beyond this and this in my opinion adds to the mischief making.
DK- eirigi started of with 6 very talented and youngish ex-SFers from Dublin in April ’06 and were later augmented by more, although still small they are on the up.
As they are unscathed by associations with things like the McCartney murder and assets recovery scandals inter alia this should lead to further growth.
It seems they are coming good at the right time and only re-formed themselves into a political party a week or two before SF’s unsuspected flop also they are unified strongly on a socialist basis as opposed to being a broad church behind a socialist banner with all the problems that entails.
Member for member in Dublin they are IMHO much more active than SF, recently they have linked with republican supremo Bernhard Fox- this should result in them continuing to grow in Belfast albeit from a small base…
Red- I too have mentioned that Berhard has linked with eirigi- this is fact- linking is not joining but both parties have agreed to facilitate each others viewpoint at a hunger strikers commemoration for one party to address- in fairness to CTN he stated that there were good friendships between eirigi and SF members.
Bloggers are entitled to comment fairly and accurately on fissures and recalibrations within republicanism, neither I nor the absent CTN have claimed Bernhard or eirigi have maligned SF but that they have weakened SF by leaving it.
I agreee that with CTN its possible Bernhard may criticise Adams’ gridlocking of the struggle at the said event and that this is no more than logical and justified speculation…
Redhaze
I agree totally with what you have written and welcome any attempt the two organizations make to co-exist in a comradely and civilized manner. There is little doubt that members of eirigi and Dublin SF seem to be making a real attempt to do so. I feel at times it is all to easy to lose sight of who our main enemy is and we far to often direct our spleen against people whose politics are not that far from our own. [sadly I say this as some one who in the past has been as guilty as anyone here]
Although it is only fair to add that for some people a lot of rough water has flowed under certain bridges, so in some areas reconciliation may not be that easy.
Perhaps it is time we took a leaf from the ruling classes book as they are well able to co exist with one and another one when it comes to oppressing people. So we must do the same when it comes to resisting their dirty work.
Best regards
Spot on Mick republicans should be gettin on with it without invective or false allegations of mixing- CTN and hib have not stated Bernhard has joined eirigi or Bernhard/eirigi have maligned SF so there is no reason for further dispute…
Mick Hall,
Well said. Good luck.
hib,
What do you classify as Bernard linking with eirigi?
Surely CTN indictated something more significant than merely addressing a commemoration when he/she stated:
“The hard working Eirigi party will now further drain Dublin SF of its best activists, as Eirigi continues to poach republicans of the caliber of Bernhard Fox.”
Poach? In my understanding this would seem to indicate fairly strongly that they have poached Bernard away from something. That Bernard now enjoys membership with them.
This isn’t true. I just wish people would accept things at face value, welcome it as a positive development, but not attempt to make more of it that it is. Particularly when the people doing it are not acquaintances of Bernard nor are they members of eirigi.
“Member for member in Dublin they are IMHO much more active than SF, recently they have linked with republican supremo Bernhard Fox- this should result in them continuing to grow in Belfast albeit from a small base… ”
Republican supremo? Like come on hib…very Sunday World speak if I do say so myself. I think Bernard Fox would be first to kick you up the hole for that one.
“I agreee that with CTN its possible Bernhard may criticise Adams’ gridlocking of the struggle at the said event and that this is no more than logical and justified speculation…
Well thats what it is…speculation. Logical and justified? Well thats another story. For it to be logical and justified you would need to have something to base it on surely.
If all you are basing it on is the fact that he left the movement then its pretty weak. Bernard has not engaged in anything like this yet and i’d say he would be more likely to talk about Hunger Strike and its importance within Irish Republican history seeing as its a commemmoration for a Hunger Striker and he is a former Hunger Striker himself.
Other than that who knows?
And why speculate. I like the direction eirigi is going in and I have an immense amount of respect for Bernard Fox and thats why I leave them to explore their project without speculating, raising emotions, expectations, etc.
I would prefer that sympathetic people allow these people space to develop in their own way and in their own time.
Thats all.
Red you are over-reacting – “Poached”- to the commemeration probably and away from retirement, thats for the absentee to address if he comes back and doesn’t find you a little pedantic.
Have you got authority from Bernhard to threaten me with a boot in the hole?
We speculate because it is a democratic right- it’s benign to speculate someone who formerly spoke in favour of a strategy as a member of one party and then left might explain why they left that party to speak at a commemeration of another party which offers an alternative strategic emphasis- you could be right about his speech or perhaps he will mention the need for a St Andrew’s alternative but I don’t think its worth bringing the Sunday World into…
hib,
really your explanation of what CTN may have meant by ‘poached’ is reaching just a bit. I do not believe it can be construed as being pedantic by challenging the use of such a loaded and misleading term. But sure…
“Have you got authority from Bernhard to threaten me with a boot in the hole? ”
Haha fair enough.
“We speculate because it is a democratic right- it’s benign to speculate someone who formerly spoke in favour of a strategy as a member of one party and then left might explain why they left that party to speak at a commemeration of another party which offers an alternative strategic emphasis”
Well i’m not sure that ‘democratic rights’ specifically cover unfounded speculation but there you go I suppose.
Bernard may speak of many things, none of us knows but if you would be sympathetic towards him or eirigi (sorry I’m assuming that you are) then why load events with speculation. Why not let it develop as it will and celebrate any positive outcome. I feel the speculation only feeds the detractors and causes friction. You may disagree but i’m fairly sure the people involved wouldn’t disagree at all.
BTW Bernard didn’t leave any party to speak at this commemoration…might want to re-read your post there.
And I still stand over the criticism of the ‘Republican Supremo’ talk…wild boy, totally wild.
Red- “Bernhard may speak of many things” how speculative of you to say so- earlier you only stated it would be the hunger strike, although your second piece of speculation is not as wild as your first that he would “boot my hole”.
Why bother whingeing about CTN’s earlier blog as everyone knows Bernhard left SF a year before choosing to speak at this eirigi event, indeed CTN could be equally as touchy and claim you were misquoting his blog- eirigi have poached Bernhard to speak at one event whether he joins them or speaks occasionaly for them or returns to full retirement none of us know- in terms of loading the event Bernhard Fox wont be dictated to by some blogger on Slugger O’Toole to see what he should or shouldn’t say at this upcoming event.
Clarification- Bernhard left SF and feels compelled to speak at the eirigi commemoration.
I never stated that was his SPECIFIC reason for leaving SF….
Wed,
quote Ivor Bell’s time was well before mine and I have no personal knowledge of what went on there – although neither, I suspect, do most of the others commenting on this thread.unquote
At least you admit to being a ceasefire soldier!
Next time engage brain before spouting.
FRU
hib,
“Red- “Bernhard may speak of many things†how speculative of you to say so- earlier you only stated it would be the hunger strike, although your second piece of speculation is not as wild as your first that he would “boot my holeâ€.”
Give me a break. Your not even passable at the semantics game.
Saying Bernard may speak of many things is not speculative but a statement of fact. He may speak of many things. But I can assure you that he will speak of Hunger Strike which is more than an informed guess as he is an former hunger striker asked to address a commemoration of a hunger striker.
Pretty straight forward no?
“Why bother whingeing about CTN’s earlier blog as everyone knows Bernhard left SF a year before choosing to speak at this eirigi event”
No shit? Where have i disputed when he left the movement (I don’t believe he was in or left SF) try to keep up.
I never ‘whinged’ about CTN saying that Bernard had lef tthe movement but I did object to bystanders speculating and generally putting the mix in.
If CTN or yourself are so excited by the development don’t confine yourselves to speculation why not get involved?
“CTN could be equally as touchy and claim you were misquoting his blog- eirigi have poached Bernhard to speak at one event whether he joins them or speaks occasionaly for them or returns to full retirement none of us know”
No CTN couldn’t. CTN made the following statement (which I posted for you to read before but it appears you can’t read won’t read) …
““The hard working Eirigi party will now further drain Dublin SF of its best activists, as Eirigi continues to poach republicans of the caliber of Bernhard Fox.â€
Seeing as this refers to draining SF of activists and then claims to have ‘poached’ Bernard the inference is clear. Simply that eirigi has ‘poached’ Bernard, which is heavily loaded and misleading in my book.
Thats all CTN said on the matter the rest of your above ‘explanation’ that CTN may have meant by the term ‘poached’ is entirely your speculation nothing more and nothing less…getting quite handy with that aren’t we?
“in terms of loading the event Bernhard Fox wont be dictated to by some blogger on Slugger O’Toole to see what he should or shouldn’t say at this upcoming event.”
True. I never suggested that Bernard would take any notice of what you guys speculate on, however, my objection was to bystanders putting the mix in.
“I never stated that was his SPECIFIC reason for leaving SF….”
Yes you did…
“it’s benign to speculate someone who formerly spoke in favour of a strategy as a member of one party and then left might explain why they left that party to speak at a commemeration of another party which offers an alternative strategic emphasis”
Granted that statement doesn’t read the best but it clear that you stated that “they left that party to speak at a commemeration of another party”.
This may have just been sloppy work on your behalf but its your sloppy work nonethless.
I had wanted to know why, if you are sympathetic to eirigi or Bernard, that you feel the need to speculate (which I know they feel is unhelpful) and why you just don’t let things develop in their own way but alas there has been no answer forthcoming.
I’ve lost count at how many of your “counterpoints” are speculative or conjecture most of which I already dealt with and the rest are just pathetic.
For all your sermons from the mount against speculation and in favour of republican unity your blog is just an unconvincing rant of petty invectives and attempts to split hairs.
It is unworthy of a full reply except your last point re Bernhard’s potential speech, again for the blind I will state it will be interesting to see if he outlines a need for a St Andrews alternative- I state this as I wish to see an alternative to the bungling McGuinness/Adams autocracy dominating republicanism and believe a new axis of republicans outside the PRM like Bernhard and eirigi could help bring this about if they syncronise- that however may not occur.
Next thing you will be pulling blogger us up on their typos Red- chill out…..
Redhaze – Are you a headmaster?
Your a terrible man peter
hib,
Not so much sermons on the mount more annoyance with bystanders trying to stir that of which they are not a part and that which will impact upon them in no way.
Hopefully we’ll be seeing you in Dublin then seeing as you are so keen on this potential alternative dynamic developing.
“Next thing you will be pulling blogger us up on their typos Red- chill out…..”
Wow thats too easy, next time when you are attempting to be smart maybe you should check that the sentence makes some degree of sense old friend.
peter,
No unfortunately I am not currently nor have I ever been a headmaster although if I was I’d have sent hib for crash course on the three R’s.
Thanks for your intervention though it was very useful and enlightening.
Hib
What about all the people who have left- Darkie Hughes, John Kelly, Gerry McGeough, Bernhard Fox, Tony Gorman, Anthony McIntyre, Tommy McKearney and the organised dissenters- all of these people except Berhard who has not yet spoken publicly regard SF as an autocratic shambles.
Come on now. There’s quite a difference between that and “I wanted to run against Adams but I was too afraid to”. Obviously, they aren’t too afraid of him to criticise him publicly, as you yourself note.
FRU
Sorry. We can’t all be as ancient as you.
Red- Can’t believe ya fell for it and pulled me on a typo- ya sure your not a headmaster!!
Wed- Your problem is they couldn’t criticise him on the inside or they would have been smeared/sidelined…
hib,
I believe ya but a million others wouldn’t.
Fair cop Red- hands up!
Gotta go here guys the din dins are ready and I’ve said all that has to be said.
My detractors are welcome to try and outwit me in my absence- Adios…
I’m off 2- hopefully the next thread will not wander of the subject matter and be so petty;- look before you leap next time Red!
Wed,
FRU
quote Sorry. We can’t all be as ancient as you unquote
Age is no barrier to knowledge mate, that said very pleased to educate you.
FRU
Hey Redhaze- maybe hib will squeeze in between all you tough guys with the big graveyards!
Now that the aptly named “Redhaze” has been successfully smacked down I’m of too….
yawn……..