ALTHOUGH some gay people think Jesus was a fag, some Christians think that God hates fags. Indeed, this particular group – the most hated family in America - thinks God hates Ireland, as it treats gay people like anyone else. That’s a lot of hate in one blog entry. No wonder the haters are hating the thought of coming to Dublin.
Northern Ireland’s peace process has been promoted as an international success story. The Republic’s Department of Foreign Affairs has its Conflict Resolution Unit, which aims to disseminate the ‘lessons’ of the Northern Ireland peace process. And some of the prominent players in our peace process have travelled abroad to other troubled spots to share their [...] read our review »
Colin Neill’s first novel Turas peeks into a world in which many Ulster Protestants feel uncomfortable. It’s 2020 and the Irish unification that unionists and loyalists confidently predicted would never happen has become a reality. President Adams is ensconced in Phoenix Park. The newsreader reported that … a short ceremony at Stormont had confirmed the [...] read our review »
The oft-quoted verse from the book of Proverbs, ‘where there is no vision, the people perish,’ (chapter 29, verse 18) opens a new book by Gerry O’Hanlon, A New Vision for the Catholic Church: A View from Ireland (Columba Press, 2011). That verse could be considered an apt summary of the current state of the [...] read our review »
Pounder,
“Has the media tried to get gods opinion on this?”
They have. But she isn’t taking calls.
Watchman, as a follower of bible teaching on homosexuality, I suppose you also support incest.
Oops, this is going to turn into another of those threads.
and surely god hates THOSE threads…
well, god doesn’t mind incent but will kill you if you’re mildly curious.
“If you happen to live on an estate in Carrickfergus, good luck :0)â€
Damn you Dawkins, taking a perfectly good hypothetical argument and dragging it down into the gutter of reality ; )
However, if I may gently suggest that in such areas (and I’ll take your word that it is so in Carrickfergus) if the cops aren’t coming out they’re not coming out.
Jamie,
All apologies for singling out your comment. I bear you no ill will, and I do appreciate you were more focused on the play of words for humorous effect than the way they could be manipulated to imply that you are some hate filled figure.
Of course, I don’t believe for a moment you are, but mud sticks, and that’s why I am going out of my way to make this point.
My point is that this is that there is no place for jokes if every form of humour goes under a microscope with a dubious filter.
To err is human, (as slugger records will testify, at least on my account) and I would hate to think of us all creeping around on eggshells, afraid to craft a quip for fear of the heavy hand of absolutism.
Fortunately, we are in a ball-oriented environment and the filter is still working;0)
At least she has the good political grace to dance on the orange part of the flag!
Wilde Rover,
“Damn you Dawkins, taking a perfectly good hypothetical argument and dragging it down into the gutter of reality ; )”
LOL!
“However…if the cops aren’t coming out they’re not coming out.”
Jeeze, that’s way too subtle for me :0)
I was only kidding about the tattooed hottie of course. That’s the end of her camera strap — or maybe the beginning of her bra strap.
Mind you, being American she wouldn’t display her bra straps when wearing a sleeveless top, unlike the young women here.
on the plus side, they’ve managed to piss off even the military supporting right wing Republicans over in the States.
so for the first in history they’ve managed to unite both Bush-loving “bomb the Eyeiraq” crowd AND the left wing moonbat “Kos Kid” Democrats.
What odds they don’t have a fairy on top of their Christmas tree ?
What a lovely, wholesome healthy family. They have rigourously adhered to the protestant ethic of individual biblical interpretation and then preach the Word of God as it has been individually revealed to them in those writings.
Each must listen to the Voice of his own interpretation. Me, I like smiting Philistines meself. Show me a Philistine and, quick as a flash, I’m in there with my trusty ass’s jawbone and a-smoting and a-smiting like billyo just like God commands.
But it is very tiring work fulfilling God’s will and I don’t have much time or energy left over for smoting gays or platoons of US marines. Which is probably a good job as there wouldn’t be much left of the jarheads once I laid about them with Dobbin’s old jawbone. So it’s a good job really that the Phelpses are there to take up the slack. Hallelujah!
I think it’s unfair to lump Phelps in with the protestants especially given his picketing of Jerry Falwell’s funeral. Personaly I consider Phred Phelps a special brand of shit head out on his own.
Pounder,
“Personaly I consider Phred Phelps a special brand of shithead out on his own.”
As was Falwell. The inimitable Christopher Hitchens gave him his comeuppance here.
Apologies. Link should be this.
“The inimitable Christopher Hitchens”, Dawkins ?
I suppose a Trotskyite apologist for George Bush Jr. seeking the moral high ground by lambasting an obvious target like Falwell is a bit inimitable.
The next time I’m in the dock for wife beating I must remember to appeal to the jury with a tearful impassioned denounciation of Bluebeard.
That should do the trick.
Rory,
Nobody’s perfect. I guess being a godfree chap I’m a little biased about Hitchens’s qualities, yet to my mind he’s one of the finest intellectual writing or debating today. No one even comes close.
Sorry to hear you haven’t stopped beating your wife :0)
As a born-again christian can I please say that Fred Phelps or the bunch of inbreads thay call Westburo Baptist Church does not speak for me. There are nothing but a dangerus cult.
Whats the differnce between a religion and a cult then Ricky? Political Power, Phelps has little or none, his arch nemesis Jerry Falwell (who could be just as vile and intollerant) has it by the bucketful. Phelps is rabid enough to made Republicans in America blush and that takes some doing.
Dread
Just because you don’t think their serious doesn’t mean their actions won’t have serious consequences.
“Just because you don’t think their serious doesn’t mean their actions won’t have serious consequences.”
Not in Ireland, Different Drummer. The UCD peeps will be little more than amused by Mr Phelps, and the consequences of his gig won’t be than a ripple in the media, most likely a ripple of indulgent laughter.
As an Englishman I hesitate to say it, but the Irish now have the most progressive, mature and grown-up society in these islands. Mr Phelps is in for a bit of a culture shock.
Dread
Your now taking the line of playing the possible effects/consequences Mr Phelps visit down when you most certinly did not take a similar line on the pride folk devil who was – as I said is in now way comparable to the hate merchants like this one.
Dawkins
I think that the visit may have more troubling potenial than you are prepared to admit. There is the issue of Mr Phelps asking for a special dispensation to speak to get around Ireland’s anti-hate laws.
It reminds me of IP snr visit to Switzerland during one of his hate campagins in the 1960s against the Vactican. He was arrested by the police and shoved about a bit. When returning here he made a point of saying ‘the civil rights marchers say that the police here should not have guns I saw some guns on those police in Switerland!’
Infering that he was being victimised and under the same ‘regime’ and heavy maners as the civil rights marchers.
Similarly Mr Phelps and his retinue will be saying that Ireland is an authoritain society that given the chance will also victimise them because it won’t give them (b____got’s) speaking rights.
I think I’m not alone in fearing the worst for this rage-oholic. His rage seems about to reach it’s final acts. I fear for the man in his viserial quest that looks set not have the same ‘happy ending’ as that achieved – by IP snr the Organge Order and the UDA in the south.
That’d wy your belief in Ireland having
‘the most progressive, mature and grown-up society in these islands’
in relation to these matters is unfounded as the southern authorities have no problem at all with religious fundimentalists marching down O’Connell steet.
It’s the rest of the population that have the problem with it. (and just in case you reach for the old conker – I don’t think that Pride march in Dublin should be taken or used to balance or justify any b____t’s to dominate Dublin’s streets).
I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet but there’s a lively discussion of the Reverend Phelps going on over at Will Crawley‘s blog.
Yeah man
Things are hotting up.
As a pretty old fashioned conservative evangelical (I do not mind the term fundamentalist) I have avoided posting on this site until now but feel that is cowardice so here goes. I find the Phelps lot rather odd. I do not like jumping to conclusions but I saw the Theroux video.
What disturbed me most was the seeming pleasure gained from the idea that people will go to hell. I believe people will but it really saddens me to have to believe it. I got the impression (and judge not lest ye be judged) that the younger girls seemed to delight in the idea of people going to hell.
The other distinctly odd remark was by the journalist who joined the Phelps. I think he said that no other group contained Christians because they (the Westbro Baptist Church) would have heard of them. That is just too silly to believe.
Of course the idea of God hating people I also find contrary to my reading of scripture.
I guess a lot of you will now go after me for being a fundamentalist nutter.
Turgon, you’re a fundamentalist nutter :0)
To be honest, compared to the Phelpses you’re a rock of sanity. Those peeps need their own planet.
I wouldn’t think so Turgon. A fundamentalist nutter certainly wouldn’t be as easy going about it. You have your beilefs and you are entitled to them, just as you seem to accept that I have mine and am likewise entitled to them. You seem closer to what a christian should be than a lot of others I’ve met are.
‘What disturbed me most was the seeming pleasure gained from the idea that people will go to hell. I believe people will but it really saddens me to have to believe it.’
Well why not join the rest of humanity who are trying to live without the need to demonise and damm other people.
When that happens then perhaps we talk about mutual respect.
Different Drummer,
I am not an a la carte evangelical. As such I have to believe what the bible says about people going to hell. I sincerely hope that many people accept Christ just before death. Also as a calvanist I do believe that the Lord can save anyone whom He wants to at any point during their lives. I do try very hard not to demonise or damn people. I am sure I fail frequently and am answerable to God for such sinful judgements on my part.
Turgon
That’s a restatement of your belief.
It isn’t even a start towards a position of anything like respect or justice or fairness and if that’s where you want to stay then there will be no respect – which you obviously think you are entitled to.
So don’t write as if you are entitled to respect when you are not prepared to earn it. You have not convinced me that you ‘try hard not to damm people’.
Apart from the usual inference that if people who are homosexual reptented and then followed the path you are on then they would be saved theologically your unsound why? Because as fundimentialsit there is no going back to an undamming and and undenonising of homosexuals.
Why should we give up what you and others enjoy just because of your fundimentalist reading of a religious text?
That’s the meaning of our liberation for you – as if giving up who we are and following the path you are on would end our persecution and then only.
Just think man think! people like me were publically burned by fundimentailsits in the past and fundimentalists *are still killing us* and condeming us every day. We fought you for our right to life and the persuit of happiness.
Fundimentalists did not give us those rights and all over the world they are still doing their outmost to suppress us and you demand respect for that point of view!
Being a fundimenalist doen’t make you good special or entitled to respect.
Different Drummer,
I am sorry you find my beliefs offensive. I have actually been careful to avoid ever mentioning homosexuality on this or any other thread.
Of course being a fundamentalist does not entitle me to anything. I do not desire your respect for my views nor for me. I do not deserve your respect.
I posted that I found the Westboro baptist Church odd. I have not demonised nor damned anyone; my reading of the bible specifically forbids that. If I have ever judged, demonised or damned anyone I am sure God will hold me to account for those sins along with my many others.
If you want a fight about how any group has mistreated homosexuals in the past you will not get it from me.
As a community we have some idea what a fundimentalist view of homosexuality looks like and it’s not peaceful or just.
Look if you want to play the game of saying ‘I’m a fudimentalist’ and then say you think your version of fundimentalism is the most tollerant one. Then go ahead but don’t expect to be taken seriously – on any front. But as you well know that sort of BS gets a big hearing here. So I’m not surpised you’ve truned up to say hey! I’m a very nice person.
Well I’m sure you are – But I’ll tell you guy I have had enough of the collective thought of ‘nice’ fundimentialists here genorilusly expressed by the tonne on why I’m not going to heaven.
Yeah I’ve meet quite a few people who say their christains and then refuse to even admit that they are part of our conditions of opression and suppression.
I don’t like apologists who take time out to say they are not apologists.
Turgon,
You come across as a very sincere chap and I respect that. That said, here’s the part I don’t understand:
You have to believe every line of the Bible? Surely not. Aren’t biblical scholars agreed that the OT especially is a bit of a cut ‘n’ paste job? There are so many contradictory passages that one would be a little naive to accept them all as truth.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that it must be possible to be a fundamentalist, i.e. accepting the Bible as the foundation of one’s belief, without necessarily taking every verse of it seriously — or believing that the last word on its interpretation has been delivered.
Ah Dawkins
Mr Phelps is ‘very sincere’ about his fundimentalist beliefs too.
Also there is fundimentalism and there is fundimentalism and there is BS.
There are also those fundimentalist secularists who spend way too much time on the suff of religion.
Hey we all have our rituals!
Only the subject here is the ritual of jumping on the (Irish) Flag and up and down because because Ireland – (along with some other EU counties) happens to be on one of the worlds most infamous fundimentalists hate lists becasue it has gay rights legislation.
That does effect me in a different and more serious way than it could ever effect you.
But I watched the BBC2 documentary mentioned above also and I saw the face of the brother of one of the soldiers killed in Iraq and the pain I saw in that face I shall never forget till the day I die. If you can appreciate that pain which these people thought they had right to add to then think of all the pain that we have been enduring for much much longer caused by these and other fundimentalists works.
That’s been the reality for some time here and it’s time people faced up to it.
Different Drummer,
No, I can’t feel your pain; I can only imagine what it was like, and what it continues to be like.
I find it tragic that some Christian fundamentalists can’t think outside the Book. Or better said: outside what they’ve been taught the Book to be. I’ve alluded to that above and I repeat: the last word of biblical exegesis has not been spoken.
There’s every possibility that in years to come more enlightened souls will provide radically new interpretations of certain passages in the Bible, reject the interpretations that sow disharmony and provide kinder ones.
I hope that in time it’s found that the verses which proscribe homosexuality are in error for one reason or another. They certainly contradict the Christian notion of a universally loving deity.
I mentioned in another context that Yahweh doesn’t seem to have banned lesbian relationships. If this prohibition isn’t in the Bible, did someone slip up? Did God forget to mention it?
I really do think it’s hard being a fundamentalist and accepting that a collection of ancient books is immutable truth, change and progress being a vital part of being human. This is how belief differs so much from scientific enquiry.
Dawg on Dawkings
You repeat: ‘the last word of biblical exegesis has not been spoken’
and repeat and repeat.
I’m not asking to do the impossible (‘feel my pain’..)
I’m just saying that you spend way too much time on the huermenutics and not enough on the humans that are being hurt by them.
Different Drummer,
But you don’t know how I spend my free time and the work I do. Nor am I going to tell you or anyone else here :0)
Different Drummer,
I am sorry to not fight with you but I have not described myself as a nice or tolerant fundamentalist. I will not comment on whether or not you are going to heaven. That is one of the five fundamental doctrines of calvanism namely Unconditional election.
“I don’t like apologists who take time out to say they are not apologists.”
Well you do not seem to like me but that is something for you not me. I am not an apologist for anything. I stated my views on Westbro Baptist church no more, no less. I have yet to mention homosexuality.
Dawking and Turgon
You really do deserve each other.
This is *slugger* o’toole not shadow boxing o’toole.
How long do you want to play the cardinal BS response
‘you should not assume and I’m not telling’.
Jesz what a pair of pussies!
Different Drummer,
Ever heard of anger management? I must admit on a religion based thread to manage to include Dawkins and myself as similar and equally worthy of contempt is a rare achievement.
You think your opposed to one another but are circling and meowing at one another for a while now – it’s feline united front!
Interesting you think you can address peoples’ anger with anger managemnet classes.Ever heard the rightious anger of a crowd of muderious (homophobic) fundimentalists? I have and I don’t think you would have much luck telling them or Dr Phelps to go to anger managment classes.
In fact that would be something to see wouldn’t it one very good fundimentalist asking another who is not so good to go on anger managment course.
Tim McGarry thou should be reading this blog.
Whatever can you mean, DD?
But I agree, best to call it a night when I find common cause with a religious
wingnutfundamentalist :0)Dawg On Dawkins
Is off to bed folks – even pussies need a power nap.
But he’ll be back again soon to scratch my eyes out.
Meanwhile some where across the Atlantic in an another state of deluded grace Dr Phelps makes more plans to invade Ireland.
It’s a sad day when a self professed fundie seems more calm and reasonable than an athiest. DD you really aren’t doing your cause an favours. You’re just a fundamentalist of a different nature but just as intollerant and hateful as the people you claim to despise.
Errrm Pounder
Not sure what your responding to – the politics or the humour or both.
If it’s the humour I think Dear ol Dawg Dawkins was very funny posting himself and our resident fundimentalist as two very well drawn smiling little pussies. I went to bed laughing.
If it’s the politics perhaps you should say what and why exactly and we will take it from there.
But it is nice to see someone starting to take this issue seriously .
Well generally you DD are acting exactly as you accuse Turgon of acting. You claim he is an intollerant fundie yet you are the one intollerant of his right to have his own beliefs, he isn’t forcing his view on anyone he stated what he believed and left it at that you are the one hounding his beliefs. You accuse him of homophobia, yet the facts show that Turgon had been very careful not to comment on the homophobia. You remind me of one of John Cleese’s characters in Life of Brian PERSECUTE THE BELIEVER!!!!111shift+1
In fairness to Different Drummer, the use of the term fundamentalit has evolved quite a lot. Once it meant people who had a strict adherance to their religious position as opposed to a liberal position.
Fundamentalist now seems to be used as a term for people who do indeed have such a religious position but also frequently mix it with politics, usually extremely conserative and often totalitarian politics, with the two becomming blurred.
Can I start a campaign to rehabilitate the term fundamentalist?
Pounding and Turgoning
I like the John C refernce – a gool old NI standard there folks! a bit out dated but that’s what we like here in our little never never land.
Making who is or is not saying what they really mean is really a BIG BS response – why cos my pounding man you can’t prove a negative in rhetoric or didn’t you know that…but keep trying if it amuses you it certinaly is amusing me all the advocay for the right to say nothing on a blog about a serious issue.
Errr talking of which what’s our resident fundimentalist calling for today?
“….Can I start a campaign to rehabilitate the term fundamentalist?”
Oh Jesz he’s still meowing….