On ‘Moving on…’
David Adams, formerly of the Ulster Democratic Party, let out a rant on BBC Radio Ulster’s Talkback today that would have done the seasoned MOPErs of Slugger proud (irrespective of background.) David’s gripe was essentially that ‘catholics’ were angering ‘protestants’ by having their own narrative about the past and raking over the wounds of the conflict to the irritation of unionists. It would appear that Davy’s own glasses need cleaned, for he clearly missed the foot-long shadow from the beam stretching out of his own eye!
A couple of weeks ago, unionists/ ‘protestants’ held parades across the state commemorating a war victory some three hundred-odd years ago, a victory which led to the introduction of the Penal Laws and the continued subjugation of the Irish catholic population on the island. But the parades did not mark the end of the ‘marching season’- oh no, the season will last all summer with flags erected to mark territory and remind people of the battle victory of yester-century. But raking over the past is a ‘catholic’ thing, David, isn’t it?
Meanwhile, in Davy’s own city and other council areas across the north, ratepayers money continue to be used to commemorate the role of the British army and their local militias more recently- with David’s Lisburn facilitating the erection of a memorial to the UDR commemorating their role in the war here- what was that about ‘catholics’ having an exclusive ‘narrative’ about the past, David?
The simple truth, of course, is that nationalists and unionists are extremely unlikely to view the events of the past 35/80/400 years in the same light, and those views are likely to remain different for some time to come, particularly as we are only now collectively emerging from the latest violent phase of conflict in Ireland, with wounds still very fresh. If David still doesn’t know that unionists still ‘rake’ over the past, then perhaps he should meet with Willie Frazer, the families of Billy Wright and/or Raymond McCord.
That David Adams would somehow believe that even his former associates in the UDA- aligned UDP would have a similar narrative to ‘catholics’ is either naïve or, as I suspect, a product of his own frustration at the fact that nationalists don’t consent to the apparently enlightened narrative articulated by David Adams and to which he clearly believes unionists are most comfortable with.
It is particularly ironic that David’s rant featured on Talkback, to which he is a weekly contributor. I remember reading an interview several years ago with Talkback presenter, David Dunseith, in which the veteran host remarked that the programme was a particularly useful sounding board of unionist opinion here (of course nationalists ring the programme as well, but unionist ‘punters’ make up the considerable majority of contributors.)
Indeed, David had only finished his angry rant when a caller rang up to provide the classic unionist narrative of the ‘Troubles’ and the pre-Troubles unionist nirvana that suggests all was rosy in the garden ‘til those pesky republicans were at their lark.
David Adams would be better employed spending his time engaging with nationalists to find out more about ‘their’ experiences and concerns, even using the occasion to articulate similar experiences and concerns from his own community. One thing’s for sure: If he thinks living up to the crudest Ulster Prod caricature of boorishly ‘telling it like it is’ to the uppity Taigs is gonna get him anywhere, then he’s in for a big letdown.
Bit unfair to pick on Rasharkin, all things considered – and marching was a huge part of the other side’s tradition.
re Ballymena:
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/aug4_dissident_Republican_parade_restricted.php
Look folks, this is just turning into another interminable “we’re more the victims/less sectarian than youse are†yawnfest that will never be settled to the satisfaction of either side. Such debates just go to remind me that proud as I am to come from the North, the N. Irish can often make themselves look like bitter, blinkered, intransigent tw*ts. Here’s this slugger’s top 6 classic examples:
1. Unionists who say they’re not Irish even though they were born and reared on a geographical entity called Ireland and speak with an Irish accent.
2. Unionists who call Derry ‘Londonderry’ to distinguish themselves from Catholics and prove how ‘loyal’ they are. (My da’s best mate is a born and bred Derryman – a prod and son of a peeler – and swears that when he was growing up in the 40’s/50’s, the only time he ever heard anyone call it ‘Londonderry’ was when he visited Belfast.
3. Unionists who swear that they’ll kick up a holy stink if that godawful (and not remotely N. Irish) dirge ‘God Save the Queen’ is replaced as the pre-match anthem for N. Ireland.
4. Nationalists who refuse to (or vociferously deny that they) take any pleasure in the success of the N. Ireland football team consisting of their fellow-countrymen.
5. Nationalists who refuse to admit that there is any British dimension to their character even though they were reared on British TV & popular culture, English League football, fish ‘n chips etc etc.
6. Nationalists who can’t bring themselves to say the words ‘Northern Ireland’.
Sorry, but how ever self-righteous you may feel about your posturing, if you’re guilty of any of the above, you’re part of the problem and need to take a big wise-up tablet – fast.
Anyway, at this count, that makes the score 3-3 in the sectarian ‘which side are the biggest d**kheads?’ competition….guess the respective camps are, as the cliché goes, as bad as each other…
so Darth breaking it down to its most basic point
Orange triumphant parade good because they have always upset the taigs so it doesnt matter if they still do
Republican triumphant parade bad because they make the loyalists angry and the taigs have no right to celebrate their own culture
“Unionists who call Derry ‘Londonderry’ to distinguish themselves from Catholics and prove how ‘loyal’ they are.”
Wrong way round – The city was built on – to use modern terminology – a greenfield site and named Londonderry.
Dissenter
Nail on the head son
you could have placed that post on any number of strings on slugger
Cruimh
Are you joking (say yes)
jpeters:
Don’t indulge his trolling.
I wonder
I’ll try (am short tempered so am easy mark!)
Davy Adams on talkback yesterday – ‘What they do want is a recognition that both sides suffered terribly and that both sides were guilty of inflicting hurt on the other.’
Widely reported yesterday – The SDLP is attacking Sinn Fein over what it says is an “insensitive, repugnant and hypocritical” march in Belfast this Sunday.
The march is being organised by republicans to demand the truth about collusion between the British security services and loyalist paramilitaries over the past 35 years.
However, SDLP Assemblyman Declan O’Loan says the event is hypocritical given the IRA’s own responsibility for loss of life during the Troubles.
Senator Eoghan Harris speaking at the West Belfast Festival last night -
On the past Mr Harris told questioner John Finucane, youngest son of murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane, and others that the “cultivation of victimhood would not do anything for peace in the country”.
Senator Maurice Hayes speaking in Derry last month – “If we’re going to have truth, then we cannot have a one-sided truth, such as is being actively pursued now. If we really want the truth then let’s have it all out in the open.â€
Everyone of them said much the same thing. But spot the only Ulster Prod and wonder why Chris Donnelly and his friends at Sinn Fein Central decided he must be attacked so viciously.
Sectarianism? Surely not.
Chris D,
I see you still haven’t given D Adams’ original words equal billing with the expostulation of your own petty prejudices.
Should I be surprised? Are you not guilty of “boorishly ‘telling it like it is’”?
This latest offering from Mr. Donnelly is quite interesting. Leave aside the rather selective quoting of David Adams (it is really difficult having both David and Gerry Adams isn’t it). What really interests me is the reasons why such attacks need to be launched.
The problem seems to come from the latest wheeze dreamed up in Shinner HQ. Essentially this is about such sound bites as “moving on” and the black ribbon for the truth campaign.
There are a number of very difficult intellectual tightropes here for SF to walk.
Moving on implies change and leaving the past behind which could be seen as the opposite to raking over the past. Hence, a Shinner technique must be found to square this circle.
Clearly they want to high light collusion etc. and so demands for enquiries and the “truth”. Unfortunately for SF there is obviously the most embarrasing problem that they may the be told that people want the truth from them eg from (Gerry) Adams, eg about Teeban, Kingsmill, Enniskillen; the list goes on and on. In addition of course if the whole truth about informers, collusion etc. were revealed it might rebound to the detrement of various leading members of SF/IRA.
The solution seems to be to very briefly mention something bland like the IRA did inflict pain, indeed we all inflicted pain and now we must move on. This should be said very quickly. Any admission of IRA guilt must be extremely quick and be explained by unfortunate circumstances (code for all the Prods and Brits fault).
Then many many demands need to be made for investigation of all possible forms of collusion. This has the advantage of allowing republican MOPEry at the same time as trying to pretend that they have addressed questions about their own behaviour.
The need to attack things like David Adams contribution is the need to ensure only a republican narrative of the troubles is produced as only it can be trusted to give proper weight to nationalist/republican suffering (ie vast ammounts) whilst at the same time giving proper weight to unionist suffering (very little, and it was all the fault of Prods/Brits) whilst at the same time “moving on”. Of course David Adams having been a cheerleader for loyalist terrorists makes this a bit easier in his case.
Unionist outreach was the first part of this and was meant I guess to show that when the quest for “truth” started that SF could be seen to be nice.
Like unionist outreach it has, however, the same main aims, namely to promote republican MOPEry and annoy unionists whilst pretending to the outside world(well anyone who is still intersted) and themselves that SF are the reasonable ones and hence, nasty unionists who complain are as they always have been the problem (hence the need now to annoy them and in the past kill them). Of course in addition it keeps the hardline old fashioned SF types happy that the republican movement has not gone soft.
As always it is a well thought out and excuted SF strategy foiled only by the fact that most unionists (and it would appear citizens of the RoI, very many nationalists and outsiders) see the republican leadership for what they are unrepentant terrorists and cheerleaders for terrorists.
“people want the truth from them eg from (Gerry) Adams, eg about Teeban, Kingsmill, Enniskillen”
——————————–
The truth is that the IRA killed people at Teebane and Enniskillen and the like. Gerry et al aren’t trying to blame it on the Russians.
The corresponding situation is the strongly held belief that agents of a legitimate democratic government participated in the killing of both active republican paramilitarieas and a number of entirely innocent civilians – which situation has always been denied, covered up a la Stalker, etc.
Wanting the IRA to admit to doing what they shouldn’t have done – but have never denied doing – is a rather different demand from asking a legitimate government to come clean about things with which it equally shouldn’t have been involved, but has never admitted doing.
Sean
you couldn’t just reread my posts with your brain in gear, before the kneejerk MOPEry could you? You’d see I’m making a point almost the exact opposite of that which you attribute to me. Even Unionists can be right about some things you know!
For my part I’m glad unionists are starting to feel a little hot under the collar; for too long they’ve had cover by blaming “the troubles” all on the IRA.
Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
I wonder,
“Wanting the IRA to admit to doing what they shouldn’t have done – but have never denied doing ”
Well have they actually accepted all these things eg Kingsmill? Have they admitted they lied about their claim that the army set off the Enniskillen bomb accidentally?
Adams campaign seems to be about getting the full truth about these crimes. After all we know that loyalists killed Pat Finucane. What you want to know is was there collusion, and at hwat level. Well fair enough but who sanctioned Enniskillen, at what level was it sanctioned, who made the bomb, who planted it etc.
What role did McGuinness play in the IRA and for how long? How many people did he personally murder etc. etc.
Parcifal,
“unionists are starting to feel a little hot under the collar; for too long they’ve had cover by blaming “the troubles†all on the IRA. ”
No unionists have not blamed all the troubles on the IRA, just the murders, bombings etc. they committed. Very few unionists have blamed the Shankill Butchers on the IRA and any who have are to be roundly condemned.
“Now the chickens are coming home to roost”
Yes but there are rather a lot of SF/IRA chickens aren’t there.
Parcifal,
What chickens? What roost? SF are happily adminstering British rule in Northern Ireland, and no amount of MOPE marching or ‘plastic bullet vigils’ will change that.
I still think its a belter,
” we are moving on & looking to the future by holding a plastic bullet vigil tonight” !!!
Said with a straight face too, incredible!
I Wonder: The truth is that the IRA killed people at Teebane and Enniskillen and the like. Gerry et al aren’t trying to blame it on the Russians.
You think so? The Provos still haven’t scknowledged Kingsmills, nor have they ever condemned it. They say that the plasterers blown up at Teebane were legitimate targets, and that the Enniskillen bomb went off because of Brit electronics. So there is certainly a bit of unfinished business and truth recovery for those three incidents.
//For my part I’m glad unionists are starting to feel a little hot under the collar; for too long they’ve had cover by blaming “the troubles†all on the IRA.
Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
Posted by parcifal on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:13 PM//
Pity that. The troubles, particularly those since 1973, are totally the fault of the IRA.
“GFA = Special Needs Sunningdale” anyone?
Some thoughts on moving on…
That big eight-wheeler runnin’ down the track
Means your true lovin’ daddy ain’t acomin’ back
‘Cause he’s movin on, he’s rollin on
You were flyin too high for my little ol’ sky
So I’m movin’ on
But some day baby when you’ve had you play
Your gonna want your daddy but your daddy will say
Keep movin’ on, keep rollin’ on
You were flyin too high for my little ol’ sky
So I’m movin’ on. Move on baby.
Mr. Fireman won’t you please listen to me
‘Cause I gotta pretty momma in Tennessee
Keep rollin on, keep movin’ on,
Please listen to me let this rattler free
And keep movin’ on
Move on ol’ son, move on
Well I told you baby from time to time
But you just wouldn’t listen or pay me no mind
And now I’m movin’ on, I’m rollin’ on
I’m through with you, too bad you’re blue
But I’m movin’ on
Move on baby, move on
I said move on, I said move on,
I said move on, I said move on,
Well I’m through with you, too bad you’re blue
I said move on, I said move on
I said move on, I said move on
By all means then, let’s find out what role those in administration throughout the troubles played.
But by the same token, lets also be told what role those in the present administration and their minions played. Is it not more important that we have full knowledge of the past deeds of those that are governing us in the present day?
What they ordered, sanctioned, covered up, excused, took part in …
Enniskillen, Teebane, Shankill, La Mon, Bloody Friday, human bombs …
Turgon, with respect I think you missed I wonder’s point.
We’re talking about the general not the particular.
HMG have admited nothing.
I’m not even sure if SF are looking for individual details, just admittance of culpability.
Details are effects, not causes.. red herrings IMHO, good only for the whataboutery trolls.
The causes are unionist bigotry, which is still on-going; that split the nation, and allowed sectarianism of the worst sort to rule.
So my advice to unionists is to come out with your hands up, pack up the superiority , and welcome your catholic neighbours as friends, because we’re coming after you, and there’s no hiding place.
Now I mean that with love and good conscience
The actual subtext of this blog is that Donnelly wants SF’s right to edit history and present it as fact to nationalists to remain unchallenged.
Oliver views me as a bigot because I don’t want my taxes paying for his hobby. Oh deary me.
What are you going to do Parcifal, hug us or shoot us?
Seriously, what superiority? You’ve got a pretty jaundiced view of you average unionist if thats the way you feel. Did you ever think that after that kind of statement, you, yourself, & your mindset might just be the problem?
Read Davy Adams transcript above.
Its ironic the frequency with which unionists use the word MOPE, while continually and one-sidedly referring to Teebane, La Mon etc. Of course, there are opposite-side and equally barbaric attrocities to all of these. I suggest an opposite term for the unionist/security force/loyalist apologists here: PLiD (Person Living in Denial).
Turgon
I’m not sure that the IRA – rather than the “south Armagh Republican Action Force” – owning up to Kingsmill would make a button of difference to the victims relatives. Those relatives believe, as do you and I and most others, that that massacre didn’t involve Russians.
I think there is little significance in any paramilitary organisation owning up to mass murder – killing mayhem and destruction are intrinsic to their violent unaccountable and illegal nature.
Governments are a rather different kettle of fish – concepts such as public accountability and the rule of law apply. Thats part of the difference between something that is civilised and admirable and legitimate (in the sense of enjoying freely given support, commands allegiance and a democratic mandate) and organisations and activity which lack these.
I Wonder
‘Thats part of the difference between something that is civilised and admirable and legitimate (in the sense of enjoying freely given support, commands allegiance and a democratic mandate) and organisations and activity which lack these.’
You must agree then with my earlier post copied below. At last we’re getting somewhere.
By all means then, let’s find out what role those in administration throughout the troubles played.
But by the same token, lets also be told what specific role those in the present administration and their minions played. Is it not more important that we have full knowledge of the past deeds of those that are governing us in the present day?
What they ordered, sanctioned, covered up, excused, took part in …
Enniskillen, Teebane, Shankill, La Mon, Bloody Friday, human bombs …
Cromwell,
Hug us or shoot us?
Arrest you, take you down the cells, strip you, deprogram you, then give you a blanket, and a hug and send you on your way to live in peace and friendship with your neighbours.
Now if you’re already of the equality mindset , the oft heard “decent prod” there’s no problem and no need for treatment; but if you aren’t you’ll be needing the cold shower and the cattle prod.
That’s metaphorical speak for an “en masse” liberation, —obviously there aren’t the cells available for such a programme.
And we need to keep costs down, the money being better spent on the celebrations to follow.
So, Good prod business acumen employed, with best practice, delivering a bespoke solution
where do I sign you may ask?, well sorry I haven’t the forms ready just yet. damned…printers
I think the SF rewriting of history arguement is overplayed,
1)They are not rewriting, what they are saying has been the republican narrative for years
2)Who believes in their version it anyway? certainly not the majority of people in NI
3)NI in its present state will inevitably have a two tier version of history, no one has to respect the other sides, history doesnt work like that. What we are seeing here is legends colliding
4)The Unionist COmmunity shouldnt get their noses out of joint over this. Everyone is free to put forward their own version of history, so do it
“Pity that. The troubles, particularly those since 1973, are totally the fault of the IRA.
“GFA = Special Needs Sunningdale†anyone?”
Are you thinking of the same Sunningdale as I am? I’m confused. Oh, and regardless of this misunderstanding as to what actually happened Sunningdale, saying “particularly those since 1973″ suggests another extremely blinkered view.
“Is it not more important that we have full knowledge of the past deeds of those that are governing us in the present day?”
It is a stronger state which can admit to failings in the past. Tony Blair apologising for Bloody Sunday did not lessen his office, his government, the State or him personally.
In our current fragile infant democracy, in a part of the world which has never enjoyed representative government for all the people, all such rakings of the past should be suspended.
This is a view I have long put to SF – to be consistent, your evocation and highlighting of specific past government misdemeanours must be matched by your own specific admissions of culpability. PIRA had no mandate for what they did. SF have the mandate that they now do precisely because PIRA were taken to be moving – and now have moved away from violence.
“all such rakings over the past should be suspended”
agreed, the money would be better spent combatting sectarianism NOW.
“Cruimh
Are you joking (say yes)
Posted by jpeters on Aug 09, 2007 @ 01:52 PM”
Nope – it’s factual. The Walled city was built on a greenfield site and named “Londonderry”. So the insistance that London never be used is how the Londonderry/Derry debate should be viewed.
Parcifal,
Is that cattleprod or cattle Prod?
What do you expect me to do with this cattle, do I take the cold shower before or after?!!
The Bon-Jovis’/Shinners have to make it look like it was everybody elses fault, if they dont it de-legitimizes their conflict.
The idea of Gerry on a truth march is laughable in the extreme, but arrogance in Shinner circles is so much that they’ve started to think they can get away with doing these things & they justify, & deflect from themselves. It might look good in republican areas, the rest of us firstly laugh & then get even more pissed off.
What’s so infuriatingly frustrating about the MOPEry of Unionists in this regard is that even though at least a few on this site seem prepared (finally)to admit that NI was administered in a blatantly bigoted and sectarian way for most of the 20th Century, that just because it wasn’t quite the Nazi camp that some (admittedly prone to exaggeration) commentators have compared it to means that things weren’t really so bad, and that therefore it certainly wasn’t bad enough to justify the violence unleashed by republican paramilitaries when things really went off the rails.
Do any of you not see how ridiculous this is? Unionists complaining now about not getting enough sympathy over what happened between 1966-2000 in NI is like somebody who pours petrol all over the adjoining neighbour’s house, lights a match…and then complains bitterly when BOTH houses are reduced to a smouldering pile of ashes.
You seem to be suggesting that the ugliest years of paramilitary violence of the troubles were somehow an unjustified ‘overreaction’ to being treated like shit for 50 years under British rule.
The situation which blew up was the UK government and Unionism’s fault, all of their own making. But of course Republicans must accept more than their share of the blame, and pretend ‘everyone is equally guilty blah blah blah’. Fuck that. The IRA committed horrible atrocities – nobody in their right mind is going to deny that – but they never would even have existed if the conditions for weren’t created by Unionist attitudes towards any attempt by Nationalists to challenge the way NI was being administered. I’m never going to try to justify what the IRA did because they had absolutely nothing to do with me. But I certainly don’t accept that ‘the nationalist community’ should apologise for something the state of NI brought entirely on itself.
Cromwell,
Is that cattleprod or cattle Prod?
hey that’s cool
What do you expect me to do with this cattle, do I take the cold shower before or after?!!
Play your part in leading the herd out of the wilderness, and have a warm shower, and a pint !
I Wonder: I’m not sure that the IRA – rather than the “south Armagh Republican Action Force†– owning up to Kingsmill would make a button of difference to the victims relatives.
But you are actually only guessing. Meanwhile, my guess is that some of those relatives would indeed be interested in knowing whether their loved ones were killed by a Sectarian Murder Gang masquerading as Republicans, or by the Provos. Or whether there is any distinction to be made.
juan Corr: therefore it certainly wasn’t bad enough to justify the violence unleashed by republican paramilitaries when things really went off the rails.
It wasn’t
And you seem to be under the impression that the Republican Paramilitaries were Militant Civil Rights workers. But they were fighting for a United Ireland, and said so, repeatedly. They haven’t said so recently, but that’s disingenuous in the extreme. Or in your case, maybe just forgetful. The Provisional IRA wasn’t a “situation”, it was an organisation.
Reader – don’t think there’s anything in your last post I can disagree with. However my point is that the idea of David Adams complaining that Unionists are being ‘angered’ by the ‘narrative’ of Nationalists’ recollection of the troubles because he thinks they are ‘outdoing’ the Unionists in terms of the amount of sympathy garnered, is a complete joke, which would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
At the end of the day if you don’t want to be attacked by an angry pit bull terrier, then don’t throw stones at the f*cking thing.
Ziznivy
“Oliver views me as a bigot because I don’t want my taxes paying for his hobby. Oh deary me.”
I think you’re a bigot based on the content of your posts.
You vainly try to punt the line that all was well until those “uppity” Catholics demanded votes, housing, jobs etc.
All your posts are, at best, whataboutery. You are happy to condemn the IRA, Nationalists and the Catholic population in general. You very rarely, if ever, mention “loyalist” attrocities or the murder of innocent Catholics.
On the rare occasions that you do mention them, it’s always in a whataboutery sense with a hint of the sickening “retaliation” justification that “loyalist” terrorist supporters try to use.
I can’t speak for anyone else and, frankly, I don’t give a damn what your taxes go on.
Personally, I think any intelligent person who reads your posts would conclude that you are a bigot.
Juan Corr: At the end of the day if you don’t want to be attacked by an angry pit bull terrier, then don’t throw stones at the f*cking thing.
I never did. That didn’t stop the IRA blowing up my town centre, twice. Do you actually regard IRA action as retribution rather than opportunism? To me it looks as though they recruited bitter bigots to fight their futile war, with the offer of the chance to burn out and bomb a few Prods along the way.
The Northern Catholic sure are a whinging lot. First off the wanted the Army to come in then they wanted and murderd hundreds to get them out. Then they bomb hotels, bars, restaurants, and any were a Prod might be. Then they cry collusion because they got shot. Even the dogs on the street know who shot Finnucane why can’t his family and the Shinners just get on with healing.
Blame and finger pointing will not solve a thing only prolong and hope of both sides living in harmony. Did any prod cry collusion when the RA were getting guns and semtex from the US, Libya and the Dublin Government. Get on with your lives forget about the blame game it will only make you worse than you already are.
Wee slobber what an idiot I guess the RA only shot murderers, killers, and touts????
Live life!!!!
JUAN CORR
You seem to be suggesting that the ugliest years of paramilitary violence of the troubles were somehow an unjustified ‘overreaction’ to being treated like shit for 50 years under British rule.
If you think that the deaths of over 3,000 people was somehow justified in response to discrimination, then you have a warped morality. Shame on you.
God knows what kind of carnage you think would have been justified in the United States because of discrimination. Or many other countries, for that matter.
Willowfield
I suggest you go back and read my posts again. I never claimed that paramilitary actions were ‘justified’, either by the IRA or any other paramilitary group.
It’s very simple. The way NI was run and the way the state reacted when people marched in search of reform, the kind of violence which eventally kicked off was almost inevitable. To use another metaphor, it’s like someone who has been repeatedly warned to stay away from a beehive, but every day goes and throws stones at it from what they think is a safe distance. Then one day the bees give chase and cover the assailant in stings.
To the person who was throwing stones at the beehive, the pain they feel from the stings seems like an excessive reaction and may seem unfair, as he only wanted the thrill of the chase, not realising how angry the bees were getting. But the beekeeper tells him, “I told you throwing sticks and stones at the beehive was potentially dangerous”.
How can one person being stung by a load of Bees bear any resemblance to Northern Ireland & so called discrimination of nationalists?
That just looks like you’ve tried to make a narrative fit the metaphor & not the other way round Juan.
The fact is, & its a wee bit before my time, but the world was changing in the late 60s, speak to someone like my Dad for instance & he’ll tell you that no-one from the working classes on either “side” was particularly well off.
People from my community were possibly less inclined to revolt for various reasons, but it was happening all over the world.
Davy Ervines quote on inequality is still the best; “It was like a penny looking down on a halfpenny”.
Oh FFS Cromwell…what planet are you on mate?
You’re going to try to excuse the discrimination of Nationalists/Irish Catholics with that lame excuse of “Oh it was so long ago…sure we didn’t know any better, times were different”? Where else in the UK were people denied rights like that, at that time? Were people in Wales or Scotland discriminated against?
And as for your questioning the validity of my choice of metaphors, how in the f*ck is Ervine’s quote about ‘pennies looking down on half-pennies’ meant to be any consolation to somebody who IS the half-penny? And isn’t a penny TWICE as well-off as a half-penny? That’s kind of the whole point, is it not?
Violence didn’t suddenly break out because people were resentful because they were poorer than their neighbours. Social Stratification had nothing to do with it
Thats b*llocks Juan,
You purposely missinterpreted my post.
Where did I say anything about it being so long ago, we didnt know any better.
I’m trying to get across the point that we were all discriminated against, your average nationalist/ republican can deny it til the cows come home because it doesnt suit their agenda to admit it.
The working classes all over the world were calling for civil rights, youre so wrapped up in Mopery you cant say so.
I was raised in a sh*thole council house on the Woodstock Road with an outside bog, which I can safely guarantee was no worse or better than anything up the Falls Road.
The point about Davys metaphor, & its about a million times more lucid than the crap you came off with, f*cking bees stinging people, wise up, is that if I was a halfpenny & you were a penny or vice-versa, who was the Pound, who was the fiver, etc. etc.?
If violence didnt break out because people resented “better off” people, then why did it break out? Republicans have been telling us forever that was the reason. Your final point rubbishes your argument!
Because republicans hi-jacked the civil rights movement & started killing people to gain a United Ireland? Or just because they hated Prods?
Please tell me what my community had that someone elses didnt? Lets kill people because they have access to better houses?
If it wasnt social stratification what was it?
Right so let me get this straight. Just because there were working class Protestant people who, as you say shared the same or similar living standards as working class Catholics in NI, that’s all the proof needed that Catholics weren’t discriminated against?
How is that an argument?
Juan Corr,
‘How is that an argument?’
The problem is that reasonable and sincere people like Sam McAughtry and Andy Barr have tried to use this as an argument. It is quite incomprehensible to me, and most other people in the world but that’s the nature of discrimination. And I don’t deny for a minute that nationalists have similar blindspots, though of course some of my best friends are unionists etc.
Look Juan,
What is your argument?
Why in your opinion did the Troubles happen?
If it didnt happen because, as republicans would have us believe, that they were discriminated against, then why did it happen?
Were they so badly off they had to kill people?
As Ken Magennis said, did wee Marty authorise his attempted assasination because his name was spelled a different way & he couldnt get a job?
And those silly people who didn’t want to wear a pink star, or a yellow one? The problem is that there is no ‘acceptable level of discrimination’. You either oppose it or you don’t. And once you begin to oppose it the the danger is that you will treat others as you have been treated.
Believe it or not some of us also think the same about violence. Once the state permitted, even ordered the RUC to take their blackthorns and batons to peaceful protesters then the rest was inevitable.
Sinn Fein claim to be trying to build a ‘society of equals’ whereas Unionists don’t even see the need to use the rhetoric of equality.