I like the BBC. It performs a quality set of services that the market just couldn’t. The reporting of the end of Operation Banner however, was disgracefully one sided across the BBC. The event was used with impunity by Republicans to lie about the troubles, misrepresent facts, and I did not see anywhere near balance on any of the channels or shows. O’Neill complained to the Jeremy Vine show, and received a quite abrupt reply.
World by Storm has a nice piece up on the IRA’s role in helping MK, the armed wing of the ANC, in the 1980s. In particular he sees a strange alchemy at work there: …if one can think of a clearly legitimate contemporary struggle it was that against apartheid and it is to the credit [...] read our review »
Extract from Greg McLaughlin and Stephen Baker: The Propaganda of Peace: The Role of Media and Culture in the Northern Ireland Peace Process. Bristol: Intellect Books. 2010. Political opponents Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness were confirmed as First Minister and Deputy First Minister of a new executive in May 2007, closing yet another chapter in [...] read our review »
Harry Flashman
“Nothing justified the cataclysm that was unleashed from 1969 to 1998.”
So, something does justify the cataclysms that were unleashed in 1964 and 1966 and 1968?
Or does:
A/Stopping the fenians flying flags
B/Murdering the fenians
C/Sending the RUC round to beat the fuck out of the Irish republican extremist fenian taigs like Gerry Fitt
- all count as a daily routine for someone like yourself, maybe like drinking a nice cup of cocoa?
Funny you mentioned south africa, In April, 1963, when the South African minister of justice, Belthazar Johannes Vorster (1915-1983) was introducing some new apartheid laws (The Coercion Bill) he publicly stated that he “would be willing to exchange all the legislation of this sort for one clause of the Northern Ireland Special Powers Act, It was an Act which Adolf Hitler had admired in 1933 and then regretted he did not have the power to introduce similar legislation in Germany.
Says a lot for the system that the people of ni had to endure for so long. But I suppose that is no reason to resort to violence is it?
As for your ascertain that “the nationalists had previously attacked a perfectly peaceful march by protestant fellow citizens who had the temerity to express their culture in a Catholic dominated city”, was that the apprentice boys march that was organised on the same route on the same day at the same time, with the intention of causing enough trouble to get the civil rights march banned? Just wondering you understand.
ciaran: …would be willing to exchange all the legislation of this sort for one clause…
Most of the Special Powers Act was fairly unexceptional – so, for credibility, how about you identify the specific clause that so interested Vorster. It’s easy enough to spot it, if you keep your eyes open – it looks just like lazy lawmaking.
Audley,
Any chance of reading my earlier comment before accusing me of sectarian bile?
Michael Shilliday
“The reporting of the end of Operation Banner however, was disgracefully one sided across the BBC.”
On the contrary Michael, I think your complaint is that, for perhaps the first time ever, the BBC’s coverage of the conflict here was NOT “disgracefully one-sided”. You’re simply not used to hearing Republicans give their side of the story – Jesus, there used to actually be a law against it! – so your reaction, when you hear a narrative you haven’t heard before, is to simply say Republicans are “lying about the Troubles (and) misrepresenting facts”.
Could you not accept, even though you disagree, that Republicans have their truth, just as you have yours, and that neither of you are lying but that neither of you have the complete truth either?
Wang Kerr
“What was so wrong with the Sunningdale agreement anyway?”
Objectively, nothing. However, sometimes I think people have a tendency to view history as though they are looking at an equation, and that logic should dictate what happens. That is to overlook the fact that human beings, with all their flaws and weaknesses and madnesses and, sometimes, their courage and wisdom and brilliance, have driven our history. Same as everywhere else. Why did Sunningdale fail? Because there were too many people here who simply weren’t ready for it. That’s all.
What were the Troubles all about? They were what happened when you had a festering, toxic status quo, that was challenged – first by economic realities in the early 60s leading to O’Neill’s cosmetic thawing of the state’s trademark anti-Catholic deep freeze, leading to on one hand the Paisleyite reaction and, catching the zeitgeist, nationalism getting its shit together for the first time with NICRA.
Now it’s 1968. History can go one of several ways. What happens? A thirty year spiral, in which no-one can think of any possible response to the other side’s last action other than to raise the stakes. Very soon we’re into the realms of insanity. (That’s what we should really call 1969-98 – not “The Troubles” but “The Madness”.) Sunningdale offers a way out, but passions are still running too high. Too many people still think they can “win”. We’re still twenty years away from a point when enough people have enough humility to start thinking about the price they’re prepared to pay to stop the spiral.
That’s what was wrong with Sunningdale – bad timing meant it proved to be too good for us.
The narrow, intolerant world of Michael Shilliday’s existence is certainly one to behold.
Michael is struggling to come to terms with the notion of equality, parity of esteem and all that entails.
Poor Michael is upset that victims of the British army, and others with opinions diverging from his own, were permitted airtime above and beyond the sycophantic utterances of the British army supporters.
I heard plenty of ‘lies’ too, Michael, but those I identified came from the mouths of Unionist politicians and British soldiers.
Now, you don’t hear nationalists whingeing and crying about the media exposure given to said individuals.
MOPEry reaches a new level.
Perhaps you’d be better staying in Hillsborough and admiring that arch you so adore, Michael.
**As for your ascertain that “the nationalists had previously attacked a perfectly peaceful march by protestant fellow citizens who had the temerity to express their culture in a Catholic dominated cityâ€, was that the apprentice boys march that was organised on the same route on the same day at the same time, with the intention of causing enough trouble to get the civil rights march banned? Just wondering you understand.**
No Ciaran I am not referring to that (I presume you mean the fallacious “swearing in” ceremony organised for October 5 1968) I am referring to the traditional and perfectly peaceful August 12th Relief of Derry parade which was unjustifiably attacked by Derry Nationalists in 1969 leading to the Battle of the Bogside and kicking off the Troubles big time. Just explaining you understand.
Wang, I agree with Billy P, Sunningdale was just too damn early, we hadn’t been stupid enough for long enough by that stage.
reader “If any person contravenes, or fails to comply with, any provision of any order made under this regulation, or fails to comply with any condition subject to which anything is authorised under any such order, he shall be guilty of an offence against these regulations.”
Harry the parade you refer to wasn’t attacked in the way you imply. If you look at the event it began with verbal abuse on both sides followed by stone throwing on both sides.After the police moved in and pushed the nationalists back the loyalists followed and then rioting broke out. You seemed to imply that the whole thing was caused by nationalists( maybe I took you up wrong) but it was actually both sides equally at fault.
ciaran: “If any person contravenes…he shall be guilty of an offence against these regulations.”
I wouldn’t have thought so, since that passage is more or less the definition of a ‘regulation’. It was something more like “…or for any other reason”, wasn’t it. Well, you can imagine what Vorster might have done with that.
Unionism can count it’s lucky stars that it was vicariously served so well by arrogant fools such as McGuinness and Adams who made sure MI5′s best stoolies like Scappatici and Donaldson kept Britain aware of practically every provo move.
Republicanism will be forever locked into a one step forward 2 steps back mode under these imbeciles and their criminal brown nosers…..
That’s news to me ciaran because all hitherto reports of the day have agreed that the march had in fact passed off perfectly peacefully until around 3pm when bottles and stones were thrown from William Street into the tail end of the parade in Waterloo Place (the Scarman Report).
The legal, peaceful parade was attacked by Nationalists, it suits people’s interpretation of this rather embarassing event to allege that the marchers attacked Nationalists (how was this achieved? Did they put down their drums and start throwing stones at people in Sackvile Street or something?) they didn’t, the first stones came from one direction.
The old trope about Nationalists being “provoked” by the marchers rather falls flat when you read contemporary reports leading up to the twelfth in which the Bogside mobilised themselves for a big do. The “Action/Defence Committees” that were formed organised the building of barricades, storing of bottles and petrol for petrol bombs etc (the local dairy lost thousands of bottles in the week leading up to the march).
I am guessing I am a bit older than you but in my youth the brilliantly planned operation prior to and during the Battle of the Bogside was considered a strategic triumph by Derry’s Nationalists. There maybe some airbrushing of history going on now, but let the facts stand for themselves, the Battle of the Bogside was a wanton orgy of burning and looting, it was well planned in advance and its trigger was a deliberate attack on a legal, peaceful, traditional march by Derry protestants.
You should read more acounts of the time, Clive Limpkin’s “Battle of the Bogside” for a start, I recall a time when every home in Derry had a well-thumbed copy.
Martin McGuinness threw that many bricks at the battle of the bogside he ended up in Stormont chewing on Paisley’s slippers likely a little puppy- what a mastermind!
ctn
its nice to see you are so worried about Martin that you find it necesary to make up stories about the tame taigs
But since Sinn Fein never ruled out going into government and the DUP’ed swore they never would it sort of puts paid to your theory about who was tamed.
I think its quite funny to watch SF let the DUP lead with their chins while keeping a firm hand on the leash
Obviously the old saying about three sides to every story applies here. As to who provoked who, we cannot say for sure, the fact remains that both sides were equaly responsible for what happened. I am not trying to pin the blame on one side or the other, rather I acknowledge that both were wrong. It has been reported that both sides took part in shouting and jeering followed by stone throwing.
“The legal, peaceful parade was attacked by Nationalists, it suits people’s interpretation of this rather embarassing event to allege that the marchers attacked Nationalists (how was this achieved? Did they put down their drums and start throwing stones at people in Sackvile Street or something?) they didn’t, the first stones came from one direction.”
Are you seriously trying to say that the loyalists were unable to throw stones because of their instruments? That has to be one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard.
The battle of the bogside was not a well planned event. In saying that, you imply that nationalists were waiting to destroy their own areas. What they had planned for was an attack on their area as had already happened in the past. Were they wrong to prepare for such an attack? I don’t think so. Were they wrong for getting carried away and causing so much destruction? Of course they were.
The allegation of the airbrushing of history is correct. But it was equally applied on both sides.
“Harry the parade you refer to wasn’t attacked in the way you imply. If you look at the event it began with verbal abuse on both sides followed by stone throwing on both sides.After the police moved in and pushed the nationalists back the loyalists followed and then rioting broke out. You seemed to imply that the whole thing was caused by nationalists( maybe I took you up wrong) but it was actually both sides equally at fault”
This is absolute bollocks.
The police were already on site -no moving in needed.
The parade was attacked in force as it passed through waterloo place. The parade was being marshalled by the police and was directed through waterloo place at some speed.
The police formed a barrier at the junction of william st/waterloo place. They were then stoned and bottled (and iron bars thrown)– the rest as the say is history.
Whatever happened subsequently,as a former resident of Londonderry and an eye witness– the parade was attacked—the attack was certainly caused by nationalists
Ciaran, if you persist in deluding yourself that the events in Derry on August 12-14 1969 were nothing more than a spontaneous reaction to catcalling and jeering from loyalist hangers-on and that what susequently happened was “not a well planned event” then I’m not sure there is much I can do to convince you. However try talking to senior Derry republicans and suggest that no planning took place and it all just kicked off in a moment of madness. I suggest they will be slightly offended that their weeks of careful planning and organisation should be so airily dismissed.
I can only offer the recollections of several friends and family members – nationalists to a man – who fondly recollected their memories of the day some years after the event, for what they’re worth. They had broken off their holidays in Buncrana to return to Derry because for weeks the anticipation was clear that there was going to be a serious showdown at the Apprentice Boys parade (this was regarded as payback time to the RUC for their behaviour following Burntollet).
My friends walked around Derry all that day and by early afternoon were disappointed to note that nothing had happened, it seemed to be a big damp squib. They were standing by Wellworths at about 3pm debating whether they might as well go back down to Donegal when at about 3 to 3.15 pm a sudden barrage of bottles and bricks flew over the heads of the police cordon at the mouth of William Street falling among the marchers (one of my friends, a staunch republican, grudgingly conceded that the marchers didn’t break step). At this point the police turned to face the stonethrowers, it is possible that the handful of loyalists gathered there (believe it or not but large crowds of protestants did not congregate on the fringes of the Bogside even then) may have thrown stones in return and probably jeered and shouted insults at the Nationalists but the initial onslaught came from William Street.
Subsequently the RUC attempted to charge into the Bogside using a police “Pig” armoured car, there is no doubt that several loyalists ran in behind this police charge. The Pig however stalled when it hit the pretty large barricade across Rossville Street (no prior planning?) and the RUC the came under a well directed fusillade of bricks, bottles and petrol bombs from the High Flats. The police and the loyalists beat a bloody hasty retreat at this point. For most Derry Nationalists this is regarded as the crowning achievement of the Battle of the Bogside, the cops got a right good bloody nose, payment back for what they had done before. This was also the end of any Loyalist involvement in the riot.
What followed was three days of arson and looting with swathes of houses and businesses in the area around William Street being burned down. Despite the myth of the Bogside being under siege in fact a bedraggled line of exhausted peelers just about held back the rioters from burning down the commercial centre of Derry. It was Derry City Centre which was under siege, in the coming years it was almost razed to the ground by Nationalists and the siege was not actually lifted until the spring of 1984 when the last of the security barriers protecting Derry city centre were finally removed. You’ve seen riots in Derry I am sure, the police holding the line at Littlewoods, Sackville Street and Little James Street, while the rioters try to break through, believe me Ciaron it was no different in August 1969.
Like I say read contemporary reports if you don’t believe me, talk to the people who were there, there’s a lot of whitewashing of what happened back then but if you can persuade participants to be honest, you’ll find that my account is substantially correct.
Harry if you persist in ignoring what I write and making up your own version then whats the point of posting. The derry riots were not deliberately planned. The defence of the bogside was.There is a difference.Yes there was an anticipation of more attacks on the bogside and the residents were prepared for this. What did you expect them to do? Wait to have the crap beaten out of them by loyalists backed up by the ruc and b specials? That the riots escaleted into an orgy of violence is not under dispute. That this violence was wrong is also not under dispute. The violence erupted for a variety of reasons which have been well documented. For you to try and ignore half the facts is just sad.
” but if you can persuade participants to be honest” or to give your version of the truth?
Sean – you must have missed McGuinness’s “no return to Stormont”- speeches perhaps you were at the “not a bullet not an ounce” or “we didn’t kill Gerry McCabe” or “we will treble our seats” pantomimes.
As for this “leash”- do your sums AGAIN!!- DUP and UU monopolise the ministries.
I am not so much worried about “other taigs” but more the future of Ireland whist a buffoon like McGuinness has influence within republicanism…
CTN your delusion is legendary
A monopoly require that there is an almost total ownage of the Ministries, that is not even close to the truth though I hate to scare you with the facts
there is a huge difference between a majority nd a monopoly
As for the leash? your hero paisley can not even issue so much as a press release with out the buffoons permision so he has influence far beyond republicanism
OK fine ciaran, I can accept your definition of what happened. If you wish to differentiate between the planned defence and the subsequent riot I can live with that, though I’m not terribly clear what the dividing line was (perhaps the RUC retreat?) and I have to say it’s the first time I have heard anyone split up the Battle of the Bogside into two seperate elements.
It always seems to me that everyone thought the whole event, from the attack on the march, (which I note you still haven’t addressed) to the arrival of the Army on the afternoon of the 14th it has always been presented in Nationalist mythology as a “siege” which was manfully and courageously resisted by the youth of the Bogside. It was not, from the moment the police and the handful of Loyalist hangers on (who never posed any sort of threat to the Bogsiders, the B Specials by the way had no role whatsoever in the Battle of the Bogside) retreated out of Rossville Street about one hour into the event, the “battle” or “siege” was over. It then became in fact an orgy of wanton thuggery, arson, looting and rioting by the fathers of the same mindless wee shites who try to burn Derry down at every available chance these days.
I am glad we have come to an agreement on this issue at least.
Harry, you seem to have a real distain for your home town and your own community in general.
Perhaps you had a bad experience in Derry, in days gone by. I hope your arse has recovered.
Sean- again your maths are letting you down 7 unionist ministries to 5 nationalist ministries is a heavy advantage to the former no matter how pedantically you phrase your spin.
Again your blind to the fact that the unionists have SF leashed under BRITISH sovereignty and have them administering BRITISH rule like good automatons.
Perhaps you were so busy trying to scare me that you never realised how good a brit McGuinness has became, though I am pleased to see you have progressed to acquiescing that he is a buffon.
Are you justifying 30 years of carnage for a return to Stormont with a mutual veto re press releases under a unionist dominated government- if so then why did the buffoon to whom we refer make so many “no return to Stormont” speeches to spur on the IRA whilst they were operating at full blast?
Wow, HGS, amazing insight, phenomenal repartee, I’m stunned at such erudition, I am speechle…
The pro-british perspective including unionists do monopolise the govt as they are all emissaries of a greater Westminister diktat.
Mainstream republicanism whether it likes it or not is now suffocated under british sovereignty with it’s only hope that a majority in the north will one day vote for UI.
Considering that the nationalist birth rate is now flatlining and a good few castle catholics are still abound that day is quite far of.
Veto’s over policy issues are not akin to a hemorrhage of british sovereignty, although they are a welcome progression from total unionist dictatorship they reiterate the fact that SF are part of a british machine and very much playing second fiddle in a british administration.
This administration is answerable to Westminister only and the internal affairs of the assembly do not come under the remit of the toothless north/south council in any meaningful way….
OK this thread is now just descending into childish tribal taunting, maybe best to wind it up? Thanks to all those who contributed some very interesting and informative perspectives.
God Save the Queen
Brits Out
Love thy Neighbour
Peace Y’all
Chris,
One victim I certainly didn’t hear on the BBC or anywhere else was the one of Paul Butler’s creation. You know, that policeman? You know the one I mean.
As for the British Army victims, their families should be heard, but perhaps proportionally. After all the IRA killed twice as many civilians as the Army killed in total.
That would be a bit dramatic would it not?
Apologies for confusing you Michael, my post was for Wang
LOL so 7 out of 12 is massive advantage
crikey I would hate to even think what you would call it if it ws 8 out of 12 that would likely be too great for you even countennce
Mike
the army also killed a lot more civilians then they ever killed terrorists
Hi Sean,
Don’t mean to burst your bubble but Unionists dominate the executive by 2 Ministries and through the De Honte system have picked the top jobs.
Whatever way you spin it SF and the provies are out-represented, out-gunned and overpowered in a BRITISH state by unionists, the british army and PSNI with only an ability to influence how british rule is administered.
Clearly a massive advantage for unionism indeed…
Harry , I am not sure what you mean at the start of your post.The riot was a result of the fighting getting out of control.The barricades and the stockpiling of stones , petrol bombs etc were as a defence measure against attacks.The wanton destruction of property was not planned in advance but happend spontaneously.
I thought I had addressed the march in posts ten and sixteen on page three. Although the fact that it was a legal march is slightly irrelevant in that it was extremely unlikely to be banned .Didn’t the residents ask the apprentice boys to cancel the march because tensions were high in the city and they were afraid that the march , so close to their estate would prove to be the flame to the fuse.I am not saying it was the marchers own fault for what happened, rather that they had the opportunity to take the moral highground and help diffuse the situation. Hind sight is twenty twenty though.
Surely the b specials were called up to go to derry on the 14th which caused a lot of fear amongst the residents.
“the handful of Loyalist hangers on (who never posed any sort of threat to the Bogsiders, ” try telling that to a community waiting to be attacked.
But other than that we do agree, sort off, in a way, almostish.
comment1 ,
OK not wishing to get the last word or anything but if the whole preparation was defensive what was the need to attack the march as it was ending?
If you genuinely fear attack by the Peelers and Orange mobs (honestly though Ciaran the Bogsiders were under no threat from rampaging hunnish hordes, then or now) wouldn’t you breathe a huge collective sigh of relief as they march off into the late afternoon sunset?
Why would you suddenly launch an attack guaranteed to bring on that which you profess so much to fear. Unless perhaps, you know, you weren’t really afraid of it but in fact relished the prospect of a good dust up. Payback for what went on back in January and for Sammy Devenney, sure I agree, the cops got a tanking and probably deserved it, but let’s at least be honest and desist pretending that it was all just a horrible spontaneous flare up that just sort of happened, and ‘defensive’ measures by a frightened community got a little bit out of control.
Hindsight of course does tell us that the parade should never have happened in the first place. But then the lesson was learnt wasn’t it, all parades were banned the following year, and banning parades in Derry turned out to be such a good idea later, didn’t it? Whoops there I go again, stirring it up, sorry ciaran I’ll leave it at that eh? You can have the last word.
Why attack the march as it was ending? As I posted earlier the attacks grew from shouts and jeers to stone throwing .It was not a planned attack on the march. Is that so hard to comprehend? And I couldn’t care less about getting the last word, as long as something close to the truth is printed.
Michael
Actually I think you’ll find there were plenty of victims you didn’t hear, most evidently those who are now dead.
And if that’s your best shot, then clearly you haven’t much ground to stand on.
As for the proportional time slot idea for victims, sounds like another pathetic attempt at creating a heirarchy of victims- not likely to wash, and the fact you make such a proposition shows the absurdity of the original MOPE line.
Of course I’m saying there is a hierarchy – there is. Thomas Begley and Lenny Murphy, bottom of the pile. Cop that Butler shot, quite high up.
Of course its interesting that you dismiss the idea of proportionality. I assume that it’s entirely coincidental that this would give more airtime to IRA victims, as they created more victims.
The Brits are treacherous pro-Provo bastards and not to be trusted they are not proper loyalists.