“dealing with serious and organised crime linked to the activities of the UDA”
According to the BBC Talkback news bulletin, Chief Constable Hugh Orde has called for the funding of the UPRG project to be cancelled following last night’s violence in Bangor which included shots being fired at police. The report mentioned that he was saying that they hadn’t kept their word.. ANYhoo.. from the UTV report, “Police Chief Superintendent Graham Shields today confirmed that the raids carried out by his officers were targeted against criminal activities linked to the loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Defence Association”
“The fact is the police operation yesterday was aimed at dealing with serious and organised crime linked to the activities of the UDA in the Bangor area and dealing with crimes which are of major concern to the wider community,” said Mr Shields
As I’ve said before, as well as a quick reminder of the previously noted poisonous foundations of The Process™, there is a different school of thought on how to deal with for-profit terrorists..
Adds Haven’t got the full quotes but Orde did say “It’s a matter for government.. but, if you want my personal opinion, I wouldn’t give them 50 pence.” BBC report here Meanwhile From the Deputy First Minister, Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness
“I think it is quite clear from the way in which events moved forward that it was organised,” the Sinn Fein MLA said. “So there is a responsibility here on the UDA to recognise that this is unacceptable behaviour and that they have a responsibility to de-escalate situations that may occur within society.”[added emphasis]
Which, in my opinion, misses the point entirely.
It is absolutely pathetic that Orde is using cry baby language such as “they havent kept their word” when discussing these criminals
He really must be the most uselss Chief Constable anywhere in the world
I’d hold off on focussing too much on that John until I can get the actual quotes.
Why on earth do we indulge these self-important cretins who scuttle around their dreadful little ghettoes and poison the whole community?
Political research group my well padded arse. They are the front-men for paramilitary thugs who should have been summarily taken off the board long ago. You can’t give respectability to a bunch of arrogant unreconstructed street hoods, it simply reinforces the delusion that they are players. They aren’t. They have miniscule political presence and support – they seem to operate with complete and repulsive impunity and they remain a boil on the face of Unionism which needs to be lanced once and for all.
It’s time to fucking well break some eggs to make this omlette.
At some point the UDA and UVF need to go away or be put away by the authorities.
Now seems as good a time as any.
Well said BogExile!!
BogExile: “Political research group my well padded arse. They are the front-men for paramilitary thugs who should have been summarily taken off the board long ago. You can’t give respectability to a bunch of arrogant unreconstructed street hoods, it simply reinforces the delusion that they are players. They aren’t. They have miniscule political presence and support – they seem to operate with complete and repulsive impunity and they remain a boil on the face of Unionism which needs to be lanced once and for all. ”
Agree with you 100% — have said the same on other threads and would have said it again, had you not done so.
Now the sticky part. To do what needs to be done, there needs to be the political will to see things through. I don’t think the chief constable has the stomach for dirty work, I don’t think the elected officials have the spine to see it through.
A good first step to proving me wrong would be pulling the plug the proposed Danegeld down. A second would be more raids and investigations. If they will not respond to the carrot, perhaps it is time for the stick.
It’s about time some good old British justice was served on these crazy crackheads…I recommend the immediate reactivation of the old “shoot to kill” policy might have a positive effect on the situation.
It’s interesting that AEP’s were used by police, and not plastic bullets. I wonder will this be the form from here on in, or is this just a softer approach on Loyalists
whats an “AEP”?
I feel sorry for the ordinary working class unionists. They can’t even live their lives in peace. I come from a republican area of Belfast and I can honestly say that the community here has moved on so much. Yes there are still problems in the community but nothing that you wouldn’t find in any other “normal” society. It’s time to put these scumbags in jail where they belong!
It’s funny how when there was a suggestion that there might have been ira spy rings in stormont or ira bank robbers ( which still has not been proved) there was an almost undignified rush to expel sinn fein from the assembly, but when a terrorist orginisation is directly linked to crime there is still no sign of their funding being stopped.Now i am not saying things are a bit one sided here , but…..
Correct me if I’m wrong but wheren’t certain prominant members of the UPRG released under the GFA? Surely it’s a simple matter to reverse that and put them back where they belong?
Pounder , that sounds like a good idea, which is exactly why it will not be implemented.
‘I don’t think the chief constable has the stomach for dirty work, I don’t think the elected officials have the spine to see it through.’
Absolutely correct. We live through the looking glass where all sorts of grubby concessions are made in the interests of a maintaining the fiction of balance.
I’m from the Protestant community and I don’t want balance. I want the rule of law to obtain by whatever means are necessary in these beleagured estates. The culture criminality is simply so entrenched in some Loyalist ghettoes, that the only way this can be done will be necessarily brutal and ugly, not fucking humilliating bargains with the Devil for good behaviour, Mr Orde.
Somebody on the NIO political side needs to make a calculated decision regarding the benefit of eliminating this criminal scourge and the dangers associated with taking them on. Then give Orde permission (and resources)to get law and order back. I know which side of the equasion I’m on.
whats an “AEP�
Attenuated Energy Projectile. Redesigned less lethal plastic baton round. And used on both Loyalist and Republican spides equally Paul
Cheers Bogexile… I don’t tink i’ve bin hit by one of those…yet.
Woodkerne. Under the GFA, you are allowed a choice of colours of AEP to be hit by depending on community identity/gender/sexual orientation/disability or any other irrelevant factor.
Whats wrong with a good old water cannon? Mixed with a perminant dye so the cops can pick them up easier later on?
BogExile: “Somebody on the NIO political side needs to make a calculated decision regarding the benefit of eliminating this criminal scourge and the dangers associated with taking them on. Then give Orde permission (and resources)to get law and order back. I know which side of the equasion I’m on. ”
Speaking of politics, it would be nice if some of the Unionist “law and order” crowd would speak up a little.
Of course, giving Orde the resources might involve reversing a few recent decisions — again, it will take men and women with a stomach for dirty work and a spine to see it through to the end.
“Why on earth do we indulge these[UDA] self-important cretins who scuttle around their dreadful little ghettoes and poison the whole community?”
Because there job was to scuttle around their neighbours ghettoes and fight a proxy war on behalf of their pay masters. They are still killing – having their fun and they are still taking their cut and been promised more. Why? because that is society they are ‘Defending’ one in which the cretin is king and it’s slogan fight coruption – give generiously!
-Given that that is the reality here I’m not surpised Hugh Orde sounds as helpless and ineffective as he does – like most of the contributions here. Because Loyalism is the Real Deal in this society and not the DUP/SF deal.
And this at a time when the British Military has deceided it’s ‘mission accomplished’ !
Well that got that right.
Bogexile- “Woodkerne. Under the GFA, you are allowed a choice of colours of AEP to be hit by depending on community identity/gender/sexual orientation/disability or any other irrelevant factor.”
I would definitly run away a lot faster if a cop with a batton gun roared “pink or brown” in my general direction!
Ironic ain’t it – the Frankenstein monster created, armed and directed by HMG to terrorise nationalists, is now HMG’s biggest problem. Excuse me while I guffaw loudly in the general direction of Whitehall!
“Whatever ye shall sow, so shall ye also reap.”
The British government cultivated certain elements within unionism to do its dirty work for the last 30 odd years. That same British government now wants a political settlement involving the nationalist community and its elected representatives in a government for the six counties. It is more than a little ironic that the British government having unleashed the hounds, cannot now get the Jeannie back into the proverbial bottle.
Who is Jeannie, and what did she do?
“Jeannie” was a small play on words. There was old U.S. television series, “I Dream of Jeannie” which was, in turn, a spoof on Arabian mythology and the tales from “The Book of One Thousand and One Nights”.
Was Jeannie not johnny’s wife
Conflict Transformation Initiative just jargon to satisfy the funding bodies they should be talking about community transformation – protestant working class need to get their men off their backsides into jobs, the children into school, the women into training & work and cut the crap being sold to them by the socalled voice of Loyalism. The original ethos of the UDA is that it was a community response – the protestant community need to take it back for themselves and not give Frankie Gallagher and the likes the power through fear. Report the drug dealers etc to the police and let the rule of law deal with them. Some loyalists & controversial as this may sound like Jackie McDonald are trying to do their bit but to me the UPRG are acting as gatekeepers to the protestant community & I for 1 have had enough. Think it is time as a people to stop throwing our toys out the pram and grow up. Get educated & take back our proud tradition!
oldruss, the idea that the loyalists would not exist had the British not created them is clearly nonsense. Loyalists exist for the same reason that republicans do; people think that they are victimized and have a right to use violence to express their point of view. The British government ran informants and agents among both the loyalists *and* the republicans. Please go back to your American US daytime TV shows.
The fundamental problem here is law and order, and the suggestion that it should be bypassed in pursuit of some supposedly greater agenda. The greater agenda is supposed to be that organizations stop engaging in violence. Obviously if those organizations continue to engage in violence even when the carrot is being dangled in front of them, it’s time to put it away and get out the stick.
I particularly agree with the comments above noting the silence from unionist politicians. Unionists of all shades used to always tell us that they were the people of law and order, they were the people who supported the police. Where are they now, when the police are being fired upon with live rounds ? The Superintendent from the area was on the Nolan show this morning, saying that a group of men armed with sticks and bats surrounded a landrover, threw paint on the window to disable it, and attempted to wrench the door open in order to attack the officers inside. Why does this kind of behaviour not warrant any comment from elected unionist representatives ?
I was also pleased to hear Orde suggesting that any funding should be stopped. Damn right. If they received a penny of cash for good behaviour it would make a farce out of an already farcacial situation.
It’s that old bromide, that because I’m a Yank, I can’t possibly know a damn thing about anything over there in Ireland.
The CAIN web site in discussing the UDA, put it thusly:
“During the Stevens inquiry it became apparent that the UDA had access to a large number of security files on Republicans and suspected members of Republican paramilitary groups.”
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/uorgan.htm
Without too much effort, it would seem quite clear that the meaning of “had access to…” does not mean that the UDA stole this information, but rather, that it was given to them by the British authorities.
The UDA was formed in the early 1970′s as an umbrella group for a number of unionist paramilitary organizations. Despite repeated organized protests and crimnal acts, including bombings and shootings over the decades, and a mass protest, which in May 1974 brought the whole of the six counties to a virtual stand-still, it was not until 1991, however, before the British government listed the UDA as a proscribed organization.
That the British government, at best, countenanced the UDA over decades of lawlessness and civil disorder, seems now to have been brought home to roost. That the unionist community tolerated, and even supported the UDA over the decades, seems undisputable.
What hypocrites orde and the fisherman are. One gave the ira 26million never mind 50 pence the other one ordered his active service units to shot and bomb and kill ordes police service of northern ireland and be fore that the ruc udr ect ect. Dont try and take moral high ground you pair off rats
A mantra that we keep hearing from the UDA is that they won’t disarm or disband until “their” community feels safe. They imply that their community are the Protestants/Unionists.
Well, the IRA have disarmed and have, effectively, disbanded and Sinn Fein are playing a role in constitutional politics.
Could someone on their side explain EXACTLY what extra has to be done to make people feel secure.
Perhaps a Unionist commenter here (Fair Deal?) gave us some insight as to whether or not their community still doesn’t feel safe.
joeCanuck: “Could someone on their side explain EXACTLY what extra has to be done to make people feel secure. ”
Guarantee the big men their position as power-brokers within the Loyalist hoods and shower them with money, all the while letting them retain their criminal enterprises?
Oh, yeah… to do that, they’d need their guns…
Apparently the Loyalist community is nervous, perhaps because all they’ve ever known is hate and can’t except the world has moved on and the bogey men of Republicanism are gone.
You try telling the prods in rasharkin that they are safe. theyare under attack on a daily basis. then you think you should be allowed to walk around ballymoney with your hurling/gaelic tops ect unhindered. we try walking around rasharkin dunloy kilrea ect with rangers or northern ireland tops on we would be murdered. Wheres your northern ireland of equals. you give we give
As a middle class unionist maybe I have less room to comment on what goes on in working class unionist communities but as far as I can see the people who make working class unionist communities unsafe are predominantly the UDA et al.
Of course they do not want to disarm. Realisticly why should they? They have no political support, they gain power only through intimidation and of course guns are very good for intimidating. They gain money centrally through rackets and drug dealing, again something for which guns would be very useful.
The assorted grants being given to working class unionist communities seem very reasonbable except of course who the monies are given to. It seems that these peoiple who are a large part of the problem are being allowed to gain power via a different route despite the fact that they seem to have precious little support in their own areas.
Most of the “defending” the UDA seemed to do in the past and still do is and was defending their own self interest to the detrement of all the people of Northern Ireland but especially the working class unionist community. If the raids in Bangor are the start of trying to weed out these elements it is to be welcomed.
In terms of swindon loyalist’s comments I agree about unionists in many areas still feeling unsafe but the loyalsist terrorists never seemed to do anything other than increase the unsafeness for unionists (and nationalists obviously).
What course of action do u suggest Turgon ? Elenwe must have a plan ?
Dewi,
In all honesty I do think we need the police to go after the UDA leadership quite agressively and maybe be a bit less severe on the minor young hangers on. In that way the leadership is removed, hopefully with less creation of grivance from young people who may then be less likely to get involved in criminality. Added to that money needs to be spent on these communities in ways that the terrorists find it difficult to get their hands on.
An interesting thing about the loyalist terrorists is that they are strong in some areas and pratically non existent in other nearby areas. South Londonderry has never had that much of them (sadly not none) and they have always been treated with contempt by most unionists be they upper, middle or working class.
In Fermanagh where unionists were/?are frequently under very significant threat they are also notably (and pleasingly) absent.
How, after all these years, do pro-union terrorist physcopaths still have all their weapons?
Will no one stand up to them? Ian, hello?
The PSNI are embarrassing. Where else would a police service allow a large armed criminal army of thugs to operate freely? Only in good old NI.
Perhaps we could bring the Irish Army in to sort out the loyalists.
“Perhaps we could bring the Irish Army in to sort out the loyalists.”
Cahal
You’d have to clear that with President McAleese first..
Pete, I’ve no doubt the President means well, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The loyalists will hardly be charmed out of their drug fueled gun totting physcopathic ways.
More worrying still, there seems to be a whole new generation of them waiting in the background, armed and ready for action.
oldruss:
It’s that old bromide, that because I’m a Yank, I can’t possibly know a damn thing about anything over there in Ireland.
Who said that ? I certainly didn’t.
Without too much effort, it would seem quite clear that the meaning of “had access to…†does not mean that the UDA stole this information, but rather, that it was given to them by the British authorities.
Given that the UDA/UFF spent most of its time killing Catholic civilians rather than anyone with anyone notable for any other reason, I’m wondering what relevance you think this fact has. Why do you think it requires intelligence of military strategic expertise to phone up a Catholic taxi company and shoot the driver when he shows up, or to go into a Catholic neighbourhood and randomly knife someone to death ? The idea that the Prods were too stupid to do it without help is laughable.
The British undoubtedly handed information to the UDA and ran informers, presumably with the objective of trying to thwart republicans through this avenue (stupid and plainly unsuccessful as the methodology was). But to imply, as you did, that the British are responsible for the existence of the UDA is a step too far. Are the British responsible for the existence of the IRA ?
The UDA was formed in the early 1970’s as an umbrella group for a number of unionist paramilitary organizations. Despite repeated organized protests and crimnal acts, including bombings and shootings over the decades, and a mass protest, which in May 1974 brought the whole of the six counties to a virtual stand-still, it was not until 1991, however, before the British government listed the UDA as a proscribed organization.
Thank you for the informative lecture about the country I lived in and the time period I lived through.
The UFF, under whose name many of the killings were carried out, were in fact proscribed, and on several occasions members of it were prosecuted for membership. So what does the above factoid about the UDA prove ?
That the British government, at best, countenanced the UDA over decades of lawlessness and civil disorder,
You must be living on a different planet from me. In the one I live on, over the course of the past 30 years, hundreds and hundreds of loyalist paramilitaries were prosecuted, and many of them were jailed (and subsequently released under the GFA).
It’s a flimsy and rather pathetic argument to suggest that the legal technicality of proscription somehow suggested that the UDA were given a free hand to do as they pleased. In many cases, British agents within the UDA and UVF indeed were given a free hand in many cases; but in the majority of cases the loyalists were resisted by the authorities.
seems now to have been brought home to roost.
Not really, the UDA/UFF/etc have been rioting in this way for decades. What happened in Bangor the other night was nothing new.
That the unionist community tolerated, and even supported the UDA over the decades, seems undisputable.
Not disputed at all. I just find it weird that you think the Brits essentially created the UDA. The fact is that the British no more created the UDA, than they did the IRA. We now know that they ran agents within both camps.
‘Perhaps we could bring the Irish Army in to sort out the loyalists.’
Cahal, my father, a hoary old B man/Blackman/Orangeman etc, never got over how the Irish police dealt with Hunger strike marches in Dublin in the early 80′s.
From then on, at any (of the many) scenes where the RUC and their fantastically emasculated successors were showing luicrous restraint against rioters of any stripe, he’d mutter darkly, ‘Bring on the Guards!’
TO MR STALIN.north/antrim/londonderry uda/uff only targeted shinners or ira men until the shankill road bomb when greysteel was done as a response[right or wrong].drugs ect was never on their radar. None has answered me in me asking why prods are being intimidated in rasharkin ect but you expect to walk around ballymoney[loyalist area unhindered].as i said u give we give.ps seen the fisherman on last nites late news again attacking uda for shooting at police in bangor. pot/kettle/black.real republicans must be amazed at this good sinn fein as their not like the previous bad sinn fein.
>>In Fermanagh where unionists were/?are frequently under very significant threat they are also notably (and pleasingly) absent.< <
This view seems to vary Turgon, depending on who you speak to regarding perceived and actual threats. A beautiful part of the world incidentally, much nicer than the misty south of Derry.
>>But to imply, as you did, that the British are responsible for the existence of the UDA is a step too far. Are the British responsible for the existence of the IRA?<<
Actually there is a school of thought that they(The Brits)played a massive part in the resurgence of the IRA. Had they not been used to underpin the Unionist hegenomy early doors and all that. Also, since the UDA were not prescribed for a very long time, and British intelligence supplied much of their capable manpower. It is not too much of a stretch to say that they played a significant role in their ability to operate. And as a result their ability to exist, not I might add the fact that they exist at all.
‘In Fermanagh where unionists were/?are frequently under very significant threat they are also notably (and pleasingly) absent.<<
This view seems to vary Turgon,’
Yes the Protestant minority who were targeted and murdered on an almost weekly basis in South Fermanagh in the 80′s have one view and republican revisionists have another.
Is it any wonder the removal of an overt Army presence along the border makes those who have endured so much yet remained there nervous and unsettled?
Prince – the phrase ‘terrible beauty’ springs to mind.
BogExile
Not normally prone to Willie Frazer moments are you? I remember you telling the story about your Da yonks ago, my Da is an auld reactionary as well.
‘Not normally prone to Willie Frazer moments are you?’
That made me laugh! I think I’m getting more like wee Willie and my oul man every day (including repeating myself). I must change the tablets.
I suppose my ponderous point is that situations like Bangor emerge from a period where common criminals are indulged in a way which is incomprehensible to most outside observers.
More liberal minded people that me will explain that a softly, softly approach is required because of our special political circumstances. In my experience, comments like these are often made by middle-class quangoistas who only go to places like this estate in Bangor to buy their weed.
I think I’d conceed that morality aside our (Unionist) forbears played a key role in the emergence of republican violence. We should have aapologised for the institutional discriminisation which existed and put it right years ago if for no otheer reason than enlightened self interest. But that cannot excuse the subsequent bloodbath. Two wrongs etc.
I think I’d conceed that morality aside our (Unionist) forbears played a key role in the emergence of republican violence. We should have aapologised for the institutional discriminisation which existed and put it right years ago if for no otheer reason than enlightened self interest. But that cannot excuse the subsequent bloodbath. Two wrongs etc.
Those fuckin pills must be great….man! Keep them up because you have just made one of the simplest and best comments that I have ever witnessed here. Self interest or not, a gesture of atonement rather than a baton over the head, would have changed history, undoubtedly!
Sadly though you are only having another Wullie Frazer moment, albeit a really nice one. Must get the name of those pills.
>>comments like these are often made by middle-class quangoistas who only go to places like this estate in Bangor to buy their weed.<<
Ahhh, that’s where you go to get them!
Stalin: “Given that the UDA/UFF spent most of its time killing Catholic civilians rather than anyone with anyone notable for any other reason, I’m wondering what relevance you think this fact has.”
Like an X-mas gift from your aunt, sometimes its the thought that counts. That the Loyalists were either so blood-thirsty as to not care who they were killing or so incompetent as to kill the wrong fellow absolves neither the Loyalists or the British state in its attempted collusion.
comments like these are often made by middle-class quangoistas who only go to places like this estate in Bangor to buy their weed.
Let’s face it, and spare me the working class hero cobblers, but what other reason would a person have for going to a housing estate?