Cross border motorway to cut half hour from Belfast-Dublin journey
Just 14 Kms long, but the new motorway link (opening today) between the A1 at Cloghoge in Co Armagh to the N1 at Dundalk will cut out that circuitous/tortuous journey through and around the north Louth border town. At 2 hours, the road link now rivals the rail journey for speed, if not convenience.
I do not believe that Irish road signs should be erected everywhere, but I do think we should have all townland and town/village names put up bilingually as well as an explanation of what the Irish actually means, e.g.
BALLYMENA
An Baile Meánach
(The Middle Town)
I think that local people of any persuasion could take ownership of their placenames by understand where they came from and that they are to be shared.
BTW – again, it’s a dual carriageway not a motorway!
Gareth – nice idea, but good luck with Cookstown!!!
You all miss the point. there is 1 very good reason to put up bilingual signs!
Tourism! the one growth industry clearly opening up in northern Ireland. We tourists eat that crap up, lets us appear cultured and wise when we get back to our new world hovels
Irish is the indigenous language of our land- Ulster. All nine counties. And has survived with the help of many great Protestants and Catholics in the past.
Again, nice site: http://www.ultach.org
Ulster McNulty
There is no Standard English – there is no standards authority.
English is constantly evolving – words appear and disappear in English dictionaries with every edition. For example American English spelling color, ize … actually comes from an older form of English.
So whilst I understand what you are saying and can appreciate your point that English may have been forced upon unwilling speakers in the past this is the 21st century and most within and without Ireland learn English by choice. Indeed being English speaking and in Europe is one or the ROIs selling points for business.
DK
Cookstown – An Chorr ChrÃochach, ‘The Boundary Hill’. Of course there’s a diferent etymology with the Plantation name.
SEAN
Agree totally.
At the risk of being drawn into the quagmire, do Welsh and Scots not have some official status? IIRC persons seeking British citizenship have to prove a working knowledge of English, Welsh, or Scots…
Sorry Mick – I know a long time ago this was about how there’s a new road that cuts the travel time if you’re driving from Belfast to Dublin… might’ve been nice if the thread that emerged could’ve concentrated on the relative merits of car vs train, how the new road might improve the journey times of Ulsterbus/Bus Eireann/AirCoach to the point where it’s a close call as to whether it’s actually worth paying extra to catch the Enterprise, etc.
Ho hum.
“would be good to hear from any Welsh readers about how billigual signs came about throughout the whole country. My guess is that Welsh never quite built up the same degree of political animosity that Irish clearly has in NI.”
LOL – it wasn’t easy though Mick – thousands of English only signs painted over or destroyed. Many went to prison. only fairly recently (within last ten years) do all local authorities put up bilingual signs – Welsh first in Western half of Wales – English first in East
At the risk of being drawn into the quagmire, do Welsh and Scots not have some official status.
Without a written constitution the concept of official is not quite as clear as in the Republic fr’instance – however there have been a number of acts recognising the rights of speakers in both countries.
Those stupid new citizenship tests can be held in English, Welsh or Scots Gaelic.
Why are we talking about Irish Gaelic?
Will the following sign be erected at the border?
“Northern Ireland”
followed by
“UK speed limits are Miles Per Hour”
The labelling of the jurisdiction is a matter of practical importance, and not just at this border road, especially given the number of tourists.
Without this information a southbound tourist could have a good defence against speeding charges.
It would also be important to point out that all distances will be in miles so that tourists do not run into problems underestimating distances.
Ulster Gael: Irish is the indigenous language of our land- Ulster.
Land doesn’t have a language, people do. Guess what language most people speak here in Ulster?
If the sign ‘North Ireland’ appears on the new A1 it will be taken down or else ‘Tuaisceart na hÉireann’ will be written on/beside it.
This is South Armagh we are talking about, not South Antrim.
Agree Slug about the distance/speed issue. Though it should be bilingual, just like they have at other European border crossings.
And ok then Reader – Irish is the indigenous language of the native Gaelic people of Ulster.
slug & RG Cuan
Cross-border roads already have information plates below speed-limit signs when going northwards to inform people that speed limits are in mph. In the other direction, distance signs and speed limit signs display the unit. And I haven’t seen any ‘Northern Ireland’ signs for a long time. There used to be some which asked ‘Is your insurance valid for Northern Ireland?’ Hardly offensive.
BTW, recently the Sinn Fein minister for regional development stated in an Assembly written answer that there was no business case for having dual unit road signs.
Reader – People do have languages but not indigenous ones – places do.
Guess what the indigenous language of Ulster is? Yes, you got it.
GARETH
I know there are already speed-limit info signs on other border roads, we were talking about the new A1.
And you you have any extra info on what Conor Murphy mentioned in the Assembly? I haven’t heard this anywhere else.
I wonder who asked the Minister the question?
There’s currently an online petition on the issue and i’m guessing he’ll come under quite a bit of pressure from his own constituents on this one.
“how the new road might improve the journey times of Ulsterbus/Bus Eireann/AirCoach to the point where it’s a close call as to whether it’s actually worth paying extra to catch the Enterprise, etc.”
ive been on all quite regularly and its definately not worth getting the enterprise.
ulsterbus buses are pretty crap. crap seats and limited leg room. bus eireann are a good bit better, but air coach seats are really comfortable and look like leather (im sure they’re not though). and theres plenty of leg room. they are much more comfortable than enterprise seats too.
dont get ripped off on the train when you can have a cheap comfortable ride (ooo er) on the aircoach.
The issue of road signage.
It is my view that we should EITHER go for no Irish Gaelic on our road signs, or we should have all road signs in Irish Gaelic; i.e. we should have a consistent policy applied across NI.
This is because in my view it is extremely important to ensure we in NI unify and integrate as a society rather than fragment and divide. In particular the concept of “nationalist towns” and “unionist towns” must be eschewed and eschewed firmly; to differentiate in this way is unattractive and potentially dangerous.
That would be great in an ideal world Slug but can you really see Irish Gaelic signage surviving in areas of Ballymena, Coleraine, Kilkeel, Newtownards etc?
A big education push would be needed to illustrate that the language is for everybody here but there will be some elements who will just not want to listen.
The truth remains that parts of NI do not want to associate themselves with what they see as an alien culture.
RG Cuan
I was only stating the policy, anyway, the questions were asked by Cathal Boylan about introducing ‘deaths per year per county’ signs (not going to, Republic phasing these out too) and dual distance unit signs. They can be found in the Written Answer Booklet for 6 July on the Assembly website.
“The truth remains that parts of NI do not want to associate themselves with what they see as an alien culture.”
Its sad thats the way it is, for a language enshrined with Ulster (and denied any rights in six of its counties) and native to Ulster.
Here is a link (especially for Protestants):
http://http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/resources/P.%20Irish%20Learners%20Eng.doc
(Sorry)
This link should work:
http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/resources/P.%20Irish%20Learners%20Eng.doc
If driving to Dublin from Belfast is there anywhere decent/cheap to park? I love the enterprise but it is pretty costly.. would def consider the bus too.
Dingle anyone?
“Tourism!”
To be blunt – Cobblers to that – Aside from the fact that the language and literature has it’s own inherent dignity and beauty, I don’t want my country to become a twee disney theme park for visiting plastics. Chocolate box Ireland is long gone – and sticking a few gaelic signs around the place won’t hide the ghastly sprawling suburbs, the polluted rivers and lakes, the bungalow blight, industrial estates and all the other signs of ‘prosperity’.
I remember that crap from 60s and 70s killarney – kids in fake clothes stinging the tourists for dollars to have their pictures taken with donkey and cart loaded with turf.
Thanks but no thanks.
Sorry, disagree Cruimh.
Of course it’s a load of crap but if the kids are smart enough to separate the tourists from a few of their bucks, fair play to them.
Does anyone have a link to a map which would show the new Beechill to Cloghoge (Cloughoge?) Roundabout bypass?
I’ve tried Google but haven’t found anything that helps.
Any help would, of course, be gratefully appreciated.
Think you’re going a bit over board with the whole tourism issue Cruimh.
We’re not asking for all that cac you mention. It’s just that bilingual signage adds to the experience in any country – it illustrates that the placenames have meaning, life and that you’re visiting a culturally diverse country.
DáithÃ, there are few Anglicised versions of Cloughoge. It comes from Clochóg (stoney place) and is pronounced that way (East Ulster Irish with the -ch- sound left out, bit like Clog).
RG – it wasn’t aimed at you. It was aimed at the patronising guff
“Tourism! the one growth industry clearly opening up in northern Ireland.”
from Sean.
I don’t have a problem with your points. I do strongly object to the idea that we should pander to the Darby O’Gill fantasies of outsiders.
Aye I think you’re approaching the tourist angle wrong Criumh, don’t get me wrong though, I hate the whole Darby O’Gill nonsense as much as anyone (Shay and begorragh). But surely by your logic wine and cheese festivals in the south of France are pandering to a stereotype of French people. I think there’s a difference between promoting what is essentially a quite racsict stereotype and then promoting your culture and heritage.
All road signs should be bilingual and Gaelic should be taught in all schools – it’s not a sectarian issue and the language should be embraced by all – “run away now…….”
You can look at in a number of ways TPP
It’s insulting to the dignity of the language and culture to introduce a spurious venial advantage.
If things are to be done they should be done because
1)it’s right for the locals who want them
2) It’s a right OF the locals
3)the language and culture is worth saving for it’s own sake as a thing of beauty
4) It’s part of our shared heritage
Those 4 are points for serious discussion
Hamming the paddywhackery up for a few tourists should be neither here nor there. And for all the cobblers about tourism , the tourist industry hasn’t done a hell of a lot for the Gaeltacht areas which are on their uppers.
The wine and cheeses festivals is a red herring.
Cruimh – what on earth has come over you ? – you make sense !
No more motorways to nowhere..autobahn north to south,…. right boys panzers forward..crap we don’t have panzers….dammit..ok then business men forward
Welsh is not an “official language” in Wales, but it will be within the next year or so. The new Labour/Plaid coalition government has agreed to draw up legilsation giving it official status.
This whole argument is very similar to stepping back in time to Wales 20 years ago. The anti-bilingualists gave the same arguments then, and were found badly wanting. There’s still a couple of them around today, ready to write their letters to the Western Mail telling us how “dangerous” these bilingual menaces are. All in all though the argument was one a long time ago.
Of course, the argument was only truly won AFTER bilingual signs were erected. The signs would never have become commonplace if it wasnt for the Welsh Langage Society painting and stealing thousands of road signs for years, many of them sent to jail for it too.
LOL dewi – it’s a subject dear to my heart.
I’m passonate about the culture and heritage of Ireland and the other British Isles. I’ll bet you go daft when you see the Welsh equivalent of the White Heather Club tartan nonsense – it’s toe-curlingly awful.
Dewi,
Are you disappionted no one has denounced you yet?
I do think the most important part of this whole discussion is being ignored.
Why is the train to Dublin so rubbish. The Enterprise takes two hours to get 100 miles. Surely it is possible to get something which would make it in 90 minutes?
Yn wir Guto – Nos Da i ti
Turgon @ 10:18 PM:
Why is the train to Dublin so rubbish. The Enterprise takes two hours to get 100 miles. Surely it is possible to get something which would make it in 90 minutes?
At last! After hours of pointless airhead-hockey, someone has got back to the essential question!
Try this for size:
The success of the “Enterprise†service illustrate[s] the benefits of investment in high quality public transport. … upgrading of this service will be needed in the future to maintain competitiveness with an ever-improving road network. Over 100mph running or even electrification should be considered in a strategic sense and could be considered for Public Private Partnership.
Source: Irish Planning Institute (“the professional body for qualified planners in Ireland”) submission on the future of Northern Ireland’s railways. http://www.irishplanninginstitute.ie/document.jsp?document=1
Malcolm Redfellow,
Do you know anything about trains? I do not except that my son is obsessed with Thomas the Tank engine. How quick would a decent modern train be? Surely even an Intercity 125 would be quicker let alone a 225 and they are not exactly cutting edge technology any more.
Turgon – I’m writing Gaelic poems to the fair Elenwe so just watch it !
..and i work on the railways !
i drove from dublin to belfast on tus in 2 hrs, damn sight quicker than that over priced, over crowded, over heated train.
The think that by calling it the “enterprise” it makes is sound all grand, its a train that stops in two many places and goes two slow.
Birmingham to london 1 hr 10mins. elfast to dublin 2 hrs – if your lucky.
In all seriousness Dewi do you work on railways?
How long does it take to get from Cardiff to London and how far is it? Is 100 miles in 2 hours rubbish or I am just expecting far too much?
I know this is a bit mad but I wonder if things like the Clougher Valley railway or Derry Central line could ever be revived. We have a terribly car orientated culture which is not really a good thing. A line to Aldergrove would be a good start.
TOT,
1 hour 10 minutes and the various manifestations of British Rail are not considered very good. Am I right in saying London to Birmingham is about 10% further than Belfast to Dublin?
” my son is obsessed with Thomas the Tank engine. ”
Turgon – Thomas is great, but Ivor from the Merioneth and Llantisilly Rail Traction Company Limited is the greatest!
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/children/ivortheengine/ivortheengine.htm
“A line to Aldergrove would be a good start.”
It’s already there – that’s the good thing.
It takes 2 hours to London – dunno how far it is. We should open every single line we stupidly shut down.
Maybe if the lamentably bad Translink laid on regular commuter trains to the the capital from Newry and beyond, then we wouldn’t have to wait with such bated breath for developments like the opening of this stretch road.
There is also, of course, the continuing bottleneck going into Dublin not to mention the damage to the environment of single-driver commuting by car, both of which would be solved to some extent by having a decent train service.
I wouldn’t hold my breath though.