A Republican’s Thoughts on the Marching Season
In the run up to this year’s 12th July, I initiated a number of threads challenging unionists to tackle the sectarian and triumphalist aspects of the pinnacle of the annual loyalist Marching Season. The responses were (unsurprisingly, some might say) lively and most managed to address the substantive issues raised in a thoughtful manner.
In a similar vein, I’m throwing out this thread and would be particularly interested in comments regardless of your political baggage.
As Marching Season’s go, this has been one of the best in terms of the absence of political and civil unrest- though, as a number of threads have pointed out, the low level sectarianism continues in the form of attacks on Orange Halls, GAA properties and attacks and threats against individuals- not to mention the continuance of the many sectarian practices associated with the 11th Night bonfires (burning of flags, political party posters and prominent display of sectarian slogans (KAT) on bonfires etc.)
Once again, as was the case last year, the relatively peaceful marching season has left a mood of quiet optimism in the air. Whilst some have got carried away with regards to the tourist potential of the 12th July, there is no doubt that many within unionism appear to be eager to transform the day to effectively close the chapter on the violent era of communal instability often precipitated by contentious marches and sectarian incidents preceding the marches.
The decision by the British Government and many local government councils to use public funds as a means of enticing unionism and the Loyal Orders to favourably address the agenda for change remains contentious in itself, not least because there is no guarantee that the path being laid out for the Order and associated loyalists will be followed- though, in my opinion, the signs are good – at least in relation to the 12th July, if not the 11th Night yet.
For nationalists, the funding of 11th Night bonfires is particularly galling, given that these often incorporate the burning of posters of nationalist and catholic leaders, not to mention the burning of the National flag of Ireland. Reciprocal funding for a 9th August bonfire which included the burning of the union flag and effigies of Ian Paisley would not be countenanced by local councils- and nor should it.
One of the first signs that unionist politicians are serious about assuming the leadership role necessary to expedite the process of reforming/ transforming the 11th/12th July will be when politicians unequivocally speak against the sectarian and illegal aspects of the bonfire culture, if not against the entire event in itself. The continuing refusal of unionist political leaders to robustly condemn, and distance themselves from, the sectarian dimension of the 11th Night bonfire is an abdication of leadership which is only compounded by the blind eye turning that goes on when bonfires are sited on roads, car parks or beside homes and end up costing thousands of pounds of damage annually.
One striking feature of the many complaints registered to phone-in programmes and newspapers this year is the number of local residents (and thereby most likely unionists) who have been compelled to register their annoyance at the negative consequences of specific bonfires, something which should encourage unionist politicians to show more assertive leadership with regards to these unacceptable practices.
The government funding for the optimistically (and there’s nothing wrong with that) entitled ‘Orangefest’ is a clear attempt to steer the Order in a new direction, using a financial incentive to keep the Order on board. Again, nationalists have expressed unease at this proposition and, for this, have incurred the wrath of some commentators in the past, eager to point to similar funding being received by the various nationalist festivals in Belfast.
But there is a distinction here which runs to the core of the nationalist unease. The funding being received by Feile an Phobail, and its equivalent festivals in other parts of Belfast, was only obtained as a result of the community moving decisively away from the destructive bonfire culture- in its place developed a wide variety of events, none of which involved burning flags and/ or effigies of political leaders, nor involved provoking communal instability by seeking to impose the republican tradition on unionist communities through marches into those communities.
Indeed, this year’s Feile an Phobail will include amongst its guest speakers and panellists Edwin Poots, Eoghan Harris and Desmond Rea, who have agreed to attend the annual ‘Talk Back’ debate, each of whom it can reasonably be expected will prove quite adept at providing a unionist ‘take’ on political developments here before an overwhelmingly nationalist public audience. There will undoubtedly remain a strong underlying nationalist/ republican ethos behind the August community festival culture across Belfast, but by incorporating such events an important message is sent out to the host community, as well as the unionist community, that contrasts starkly with that sent out to nationalists over the 11th-12th July period.
A second observation arising from the various discussions about the place of the 11th Night/ 12th July within unionist culture is the value we place on single identity v. shared identity celebrations. This occurred to me when listening to former Newsletter editor, Austin Hunter, on a radio programme on the 12th July last year. When asked about the cross-community appeal of the Twelfth, he was (in my opinion) rightly dismissive of the notion, and pointed out that not all celebrations need be cross-community to be positive. This year, when posed with a similar question, Belfast UUP councillor Chris McGimpsey resorted to the fanciful assertion that no one should feel threatened by Orange parades and all should be able to enjoy them.
In this I found myself concurring with Mr. Hunter. In reality those who believe that nationalists will ever likely feel comfortable at an Orange celebration are delusional at best and mischievous at worst. By definition, the Twelfth and associated Orange- and other Loyal Order celebrations- are about remembering an exclusively Protestant and British identity, celebrating victories over their neighbours and remembering defeats inflicted by this enemy- as our own Fair Deal put it so incisively, “it’s an Ulster Prod thing.”
Orangefest must be less about becoming all-inclusive (an impossible goal in the foreseeable future) and more about becoming a positive assertion of the unionist identity which achieves the objective of providing an outlet for the unionist identity but without antagonising nor provoking their nationalist neighbours at the same time- in this regard, Barry White’s observations of the 12th parade in Belfast this year indicate that progress is being made on this front. Essentially, as one Scandinavian tourist incisively put it when questioned during a UTV vox pop outside the City Hall last year, it is a ‘loaded’ celebration; let’s not deny that but simply acknowledge it and plan accordingly.
If this is sought after and achieved, then nationalists would have no grounds for objection and indeed would be churlish to do so- as unionists look today when they rather spitefully attack the Feile an Phobail. Essentially, the Orange Order and ‘Orangefest’ will have transformed itself into a cross between the nationalist festival culture and a much more dynamic protestant version of the Ancient Order of the Hibernians: the latter being an exclusivist organisation with exclusive appeal, but one which has long celebrated its culture in a non-offensive manner (so much so that very few nationalists- never mind unionists- know what it actually stands for!)
The flow of funding which has been delivered to the Order raises some uncomfortable questions for unionists regarding St. Patrick’s Day and, more specifically, the need to publicly accept the legitimacy of and expressions of the Irish nationalist tradition in the north of Ireland. The spectacle of unionist councillors standing in front of television cameras and pointing to a child waving a tricolour at next year’s St. Patrick’s Day celebrations as evidence of why it is unwelcoming for protestants becomes all the more ridiculous when it is discovered that the same political leaders have no qualms in funding events over a 24 hour period in July when enough flags are waved and burned to keep a Chinese sweat shop in business until the next year’s bonfires are lit!
Living in our deeply segregated society, it can become easy to forget how deep and raw the political and cultural divide remains. Indeed, demographic shifts in the past 35 years have often been determined by a desire to reside in an area reflecting the single identity culture we are comfortable with as much as by coercive means. Where the two communities do co-exist (the much vaunted ‘shared spaces,’) it is often deemed polite to suppress overt expressions of one’s political and cultural identity. Likewise in the ‘mixed’ workplace, it is all too easy to adhere to Heaney’s advice of ‘saying nothing’ when the hot potato of local politics rears its head.
The marching season destroys the polite fiction of a mutually tolerant and harmonious society in its abrasive and often crude expression of the British and protestant identity by violating the unwritten rules that have developed around ‘the shared space.’
For nationalists, it poses a challenging question: are we able to respect the outward exhibition of the unionist tradition, albeit stripped of the sectarian cloak too often accompanying it?
It is a particularly challenging poser for nationalists as, unlike catholics/ nationalists in general, Orangemen have never bought into the idea of suppressing the expression of their identity for the utilitarian benefits of dysfunctionally mixed communities. In this, history has provided the Loyal Orders with a distinct advantage.
Whilst unionism’s fall from ascendancy in the six counties has been a necessary but yet symbolically painful one for the collective unionist community, one of the legacies of its bygone supremacy is the prominent location of Orange halls in villages, towns and cities across the six counties. Whether predominantly catholic or protestant, time was that the Order- and Unionism’s- writ ran supreme and the sullen catholic and nationalist community limply accepted the proud, in your face display of unionist colours from their main thoroughfares.
Essentially, there is no counterpart to the Orange Order within nationalism; whilst many like to hold up the GAA as a green reflection of the Order, in the latter’s explicit and assertive expression of a political identity it has no equal in our context. Consequently, nationalists- and some unionists- prefer to believe that, in the interests of maintaining civic harmony, a culture of ‘neutrality’ is best in regard to the visible manifestation of political identity.
Nationalists have good reason for believing that reciprocal respect for public manifestations of the Irish political/ cultural identity in ‘the shared space’ would be less than forthcoming. In this, the example of the first republican parade in Ballymena in 2005 is instructive.
Having traditionally shunned the somewhat crude notion of challenging unionists to tolerate a republican parade as a flip side for the many occasions in which the poser is put to nationalist communities, the reaction to the dissident republican parade on that occasion confirmed to nationalists that they were right all along to believe unionists were asking a degree of tolerance from nationalists that they would never contemplate extending to nationalists.
In the event, the unequivocal demands for no parade from unionist politicians and the wave of violence directed at catholic persons, homes and properties across north Antrim merely confirmed the long-held suspicions that demands for tolerance ran in only one direction.
Skip forward in time to this year’s 12th and the annual heightening of tension when loyalists use the Marching Season as an excuse to erect flags in mixed residential or even majority nationalist areas. Perhaps the most revealing example this year was to be found in Newcastle, Co. Down, where loyalists erected flags along the main street in the majority nationalist town. Defending the action, the DUP MLA, Jim Wells, argued that the ‘one-third’ unionist population of the town should have the right to celebrate their culture in such a manner. Perhaps Jim is right; but would Jim and his colleagues in the DUP be so quick to assert the right of the Larne, Ballymena or indeed Lisburn nationalist minorities to erect the Irish National flag along the main thoroughfares in those towns where they form a similar-sized minority? I thought not….
Ironically, it could be the case that the key to unlocking the door to summer marching season’s characterised by long-term stability lay in developing universal acceptance that ‘equality’ is better than ‘neutrality,’ given that the latter demands a restriction on political and cultural expression all around. But this would demand a quantum leap from unionists, many of whom (if Slugger’s contingent are to be believed) still hold to the line that ‘Ulster is British’ and there should be no acceptance of the political symbols of Irish nationalism.
The challenge to unionism must be to respect and accommodate the political expression of the Irish identity: to this day, in spite of accepting the principle of a divided society manifest in the complicated consociational framework of our new political dispensation, there remains a meanness in unionist politicians refusal to respect the place of the Irish tricolour as the national flag of more than 40% of their neighbours residing in the state.
From burning the Irish National flag to labelling it ‘foreign,’ unionists have yet to endorse the natural consequences of a society deeply divided along political lines- namely, that the political emblems of both communities be afforded official legitimacy.
One of the ironies of the present process is that the successful decommissioning and dismantling of the oppressive loyalist paramilitary culture will present unionists with the challenge of tolerating emboldened nationalist minority communities across the north.
I recently read a post-graduate’s research study into the attitudes of a minority catholic population in a county Antrim town. What became clear from the research is that the community have become accustomed to suppressing their Irish identity for fear of attack from loyalists. Those who’d even thought of establishing a GAA club in the area were too afraid.
Yet, if the peace process develops as is to be hoped, then the loyalist threat which suppressed expressions of Irish identity in majority unionist and shared spaces will rescind to the extent that will allow for a renewed and confident expression of the Irish nationalist identity to flourish- something that will challenge tolerance levels within unionism. In this regard, it is fascinating to compare how unionists in minority communities like Derry have remained able to assert their collective identity whereas nationalists residing in equal numbers (in percentage terms) in minority communities like Larne, Ballymena and Lisburn were simply too afraid to follow in a similar manner.
From a nationalist perspective, it is important that our political leaders continue to condemn attacks on Orange Order Halls, other property and persons, calling for tolerance of expression of the British/ protestant identity consistent with the simple but powerful message that cultivating a society tolerant of cultural and political diversity requires mutual acceptance of each other’s equally legitimate right to exist. As I have pointed out on Slugger before, unionists have failed to either respond to or sufficiently acknowledge the significant development in republican thinking behind the endorsement of the ‘neutrality or equality’ policy regarding symbols and emblems being flown from civic buildings in the north, with all that entails for respecting the ‘Britishness’ of unionists as Alex Maskey notably did during his tenure as Belfast Mayor. Once that is achieved, successfully overcoming disputes about the manner of that expression, which lay behind the heightened tension across the north every summer, may become a redundant matter in time.
Hells bells enough – I’m going to bed – seriouisly Chris that’s a little long.
Why didn’t you write a book, I’m bloody not wading thru that.
enjoyable piece Chris-The West Belfast Festival reference was interesting especially with the attendance of Eoghan Harris-would love a ticket for that debate.
Watch the Newcastle and Dundrum situation where bonfires and parades were imposed against the majority nationalist community. Intimidation against nationalists in Dundrum is continuing following an altercation on the eleventh night. The silence of certain unionist politicians is deafening.
Hi Chris, a very comprehensive post, clearly you’ve given this a lot of thought.
You make a number of good points, and some others which I would disagree with.
Hopefully we’re all moving towards the point where we can enjoy greater appreciation of each ‘others’ cultural expression.
I hope Chris will be consistent and urge the withdrawl of all Government funding for groups like the GAA, Irish Language Groups, Catholic Schools and tax benefits for the Catholic Church which only this week re-inforced by Benny the deep sectarianism of its views concerning the ecclesiolgy of Protestant Churches. I would hope he would take the same line on the “Soldiers Song” being played at IRFU matches etc also.
a 2,605 word article. FFS Chris, go for a walk.
“withdrawl of all Government funding for groups like the GAA, Irish Language Groups, Catholic Schools and tax benefits for the Catholic Church ”
Perhaps when they start to burn union flags, erect and burn the names of dead protestants and unionist politicians, and have paramilitary shows of strength before games and class…..then we’ll get back to your point.
Things may be getting better but society is far from normal in the six, particularly around the loyalist marching season.
Sam
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in the piece. I’m against withdrawing funding as it’s clearly having an effect with regards to the 12th July; not so sure about the bonfires, though the leadership on that one must really come from within the community.
To all
Apologies for the length of the piece- I’ve been adding to it bit-by-bit over the past month. I’d thought about following Fair Deal’s lead and cut it into a number of smaller threads, but what’s done is done now….
AT
You don’t need a ticket, just arrive early to avoid the standing room only scenario (check website but I’m pretty sure the ‘Talk Back’ is on the Wednesday @ 7pm/ 7.30pm in St. Louise’s.)
sam
I presume you will support the removal of all financial support from the Irish Football Association because of its support for the uvf during the Glentoran v Cliftonville game at the oval, or making a Ballymena United game available for the DUP to broadcast and use the facilities of the club for political reasons at the recent elections.
How can we fund the Irish Football Associatiion when it ignored the MP for South Belfast’s request to condemn supporters who were using IFA(our wee country) flags to mark out loyalist territory & intimidate the local Catholic community.
How can we fund the IFA when it refuses to condemn the flying of n.i football flags alongside those of the uvf & uff, as is the case every loyalist season.
If the IFA are looking funding, they might consider why its products are being sold openly by paramilitaries in an East Belfast shop.(as featured on a recent paramilitary racketeering feature on utv)
perhaps the biggest image problem the n.i football team has, is when, the new South East Antrim Brigadeer of the UFF is shown on tv wearing his new n.i tracksuit.
Everyone welcome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris – there’s potential for dozens of blogs here.
I’ll ask you about this part.
“churlish to do so- as unionists look today when they rather spitefully attack the Feile an Phobail”
You rightly focused in on, and condemned, one banner – Joe Bratty. But how can you accuse unionists of being churlish about Feil an phobail?
An event at the Felons club ?
The Bobby Sands cup – to “pay tribute to Bobby Sands and his fellow hunger strikers” ?
Isn’t asking unionists to pay tribute to the hunger strikers as ridiculous as expecting nationalists to feel comfortable at an event where Joe Bratty is remembered by a banner ?
‘Isn’t asking unionists to pay tribute to the hunger strikers as ridiculous as expecting nationalists to feel comfortable at an event where Joe Bratty is remembered by a banner ?’
Isn’t the difference that unionists & Orangemen expect to be able to march through Nationalist communities with thier paramilitary banners commemorating their heroes of the uff & uvf.
“Isn’t the difference that unionists & Orangemen expect to be able to march through Nationalist communities with thier paramilitary banners commemorating their heroes of the uff & uvf. ”
Nope – that’s inaccurate and that’s not what I was asking Chris.
Chris quite reasonably pointed out the Bratty banner ( that is a singular and one is certainly one too many ) – how can he criticise unionists for looking askance at being asked to “pay tribute to Bobby Sands and his fellow hunger strikers†?
My point is that ALL of Feile an phobail is as contaminated by things such a having an event at the Felons Club and commemorating the 10 convicted terrorists as all orange events are contaminated by ths Bratty banner.
My point is that ALL of Feile an phobail is as contaminated by things such a having an event at the Felons Club and commemorating the 10 convicted terrorists as all orange events are contaminated by ths Bratty banner.
Posted by Cruimh on Jul 22, 2007 @ 02:07 AM
And that is why regular folks take f’all to do with either event.
I’m convinced Northern Ireland is being held hostage by the mind set of less that 5% off the total population.
“I’m convinced Northern Ireland is being held hostage by the mind set of less that 5% off the total population.”
That’s a good point McGrath
Incidentally – that (“pay tribute to Bobby Sands and his fellow hunger strikers†) is a quote from the Feile an Phobail website.
Actually quite a reasonable and thought provoking post from Chris and not much I would disagree with. I would quibble with one or two points.
The idea that disrespecting the national flag and traditions of the other community is limited to one section of the population (or indeed in Slugger as Chris implies) is clearly bogus. The Union Flag is certainly NOT respected among Nationalists or here in the columns of Slugger O’Toole, it is regularly described as “The Butcher’s Apron”, burnt and descrated by Nationalists and Queen Elizabeth II is frequently referred to derisorily as “Betty Windsor” by posters like Chris himself. Certainly “Ulster is British” is asserted trenchantly by Unionsists but Republicans have never been heard to say “You know Northern Ireland could reasonably be regarded as part of the United Kingdom”, it’s always “the Six Counties are occupied Irish counties, Brits Out!”. There’s nothing wrong with a vigorous assertion of your political viewpoint of course but let’s not pretend only one side does it, eh?
As regards the protestant community in Derry, I fear Chris has a rather rosey view of that. Check out how many protestant owned businesses there are in the west bank (hint you won’t need many fingers of one hand), or schools, clubs or churches, in a town that up until thirty years ago was full of them. The Derry prods keep a very low profile and explicit (as opposed to the dreary day to day hum drum low level implicit) sectarianism against protestants is thankfully non-existant, but I am familiar with that community and in private they don’t believe that life in Derry is all a bowl of cherries you know.
Three questions arise before I can fully respond to your article, Chris.
Where do you live (I mean generally, not your door number or street name)?
What age are you?
Did you ever experience the fear caused by 20,000 plus Orangemen and their various supporters (UVF,LVF,UDA,etc) surrounding and literally beseiging your neighbourhood for days on end? (Check all the media reports re:Drumcree from the late 90′s)
Harry F:
“The idea that disrespecting the national flag and traditions of the other community is limited to one section of the population (or indeed in Slugger as Chris implies) is clearly bogus. The Union Flag is certainly NOT respected among Nationalists or here in the columns of Slugger O’Toole, it is regularly described as “The Butcher’s Apronâ€, burnt and descrated by Nationalists and Queen Elizabeth II is frequently referred to derisorily as “Betty Windsor†by posters like Chris himself.”
Please provide verifiable evidence whereby National Flags etc are not respected by ALL of one particular community.
I am a member of one of Northern Ireland’s two communities, while I may not embrace the other communities symbology and cultural difference, I don’t burn the other communities flag, I don’t refer to their leadership in derogatory terms.
I know I am not in a minority with my community, are you? Your carpet bombing comments are part of the problem.
Oh for heaven’s sake McGrath stop nit picking!
I never said ALL nationalists disrespect the British flag, the implication of my post should obviously make it clear that it is disrespected by many nationalists, what proportion I don’t particularly care and is anyway not relevant to my point.
Have you something constructive to add?
Harry, at a political level, I think SF have adopted a sensible policy of ‘both flags or neither’. I guess this shows a level of respect (at the leadership level anyway) for the union flag – Maskey himself had both flags in his office during his days as major of Belfast.
Unfortunately we’ll be waiting a while for a reciprocal gesture, if ever.
It is really disturbing to see thousands of loyalists attending these ‘burn anything Irish, Kill All Taigs’ events every year. Particularly when you see so many kids at them being brain washed.
OK loyalists, we get it, you hate us. Get over it.
Harry:
Here yo go, you typed it…………..
“The Union Flag is certainly NOT respected among Nationalists”
More to the point is you categorized all nationalists commentors on Slugger O’Toole in one post!
Would you agree now that not all nationalists / unionists are not cut from the same respective cloths? I don’t view it as nit picking, as the very same nit picking has kept apart two very similar societies.
Such sweeping commentary is not useful, do you now care to retract that comment?
As Marching Season’s go, this has been one of the best in terms of the absence of political and civil unrest- though, as a number of threads have pointed out, the low level sectarianism continues in the form of attacks on Orange Halls, GAA properties and attacks and threats against individuals
Chris,
You haven’t put a link in for the attack on GAA properties. There were a couple flagged up on the SF site on the 18th, but SF have put these down to “vandalism”, so I’m assuming no sectarian motive.
Were there any sectarian attacks on GAA halls over the 12th period?
An interesting piece from Chris. From a personal perspective living in South Belfast I would say that, compared to where we were three/four years ago, things are clearly getting better. Three years ago the crossroads at Newton Park and the Saintfield Road were adorned with UDA flags for weeks and there were Union/Ulster flags on every lamp post on Newton Park (a genuinely mixed area)for most of the summer; much to the annoyance of most of the locals.
This year there were far fewer flags, they were non paramilitary and were up for only a few days. Perhaps we are witnessing the beginning of a more sensitively managed Twelfth.
I wonder how much is due to a sense that, just maybe, we actually have found a peaceful settlement that the vast majority of all our citizens (regardless of background or affiliation) can live with?
It’s really funny that the Tourist Board imagines there is some attraction with watching closet gays prance about in bowler hats and Mary, Queen of the May type sashes. Let’s face it: the worshippers of the Dutch faggot are yesterday’s people.
A thought-provoking piece Chris, for Nationalists and Unionists alike.
I can’t ever see Orangefest becoming inclusive in a place like Newry where the parades are simply ignored by the majority of the population. (In a similar vein, the Easter parades don’t attract any Unionist interest – or these days, little Nationalist interest). They happen early in the morning and cause little disruption (as far as I am aware) and therefore have ceased to become an issue for most ordinary joes. The only parade that attracts any sizeable crowd down here these days is the St Patrick one and whilst the organisers endeavour to ensure that no exclusive symbols are part of the parade itself, they obviously have no control over the spectators. Whether that means that Unionists don’t participate, I’m unsure. But at the end of the day, it’s hard to celebrate your Irishness without displaying your Irishness.
The Irish Tricolour is displayed in NI already (the legal barrier was removed decades ago) along with all forms of Irish culture many in receipt of financial support from the state. Plus a political settlement that guarantees the inclusion of parties representing that identity in government.
Will it be from official buildings? No. You get that if you ever succeed in getting a United Ireland. I am afraid accepting the principle of consent has a few everyday consequences which means the Union flag gets flown every so often.
As for Newcastle, it is the first time I have noticed a unionist adopting an explicit minority rights argument. It creates challenges for both communities for example nationalism jumps between minority rights and majoritarianism with no difficulty e.g. a nationalist majority in Newcastle means no Unionist flags and a nationalist minority in Stoneyford means no Unionist flags.
There will be contradictions as our communities may be willing to accept and vote for sharing up at the big house but in the past they have shown themselves less willing to do so in their daily lives.
The issues around the 17th March are the issues of single identity v shared space. Patrick is not the exclusive property of Irish nationalism.
“natural consequence”
I realise determinism is a major feature of nationalist thought but it doesn’t fly. The deal is done (for good or ill) you want anything more start bargaining don’t expect. If you want it you have to offer something in return to your partners – and I mean tangibles.
Two thousand odd words, carefully written.
A fine testament to an Irish summer.
The Feile an Phobail schedule looks pretty good. Highlights Marin Mansergh on the 11th and the Buzzcocks on 12th! Finally finished your article Chris – I have to say that the emotional intensity of even posters on this site over the period is frightening. A place to avoid in early July.
Fair Deal
“Patrick is not the exclusive property of Irish nationalism.” – of course not, he was Welsh!
maud’s gone
He was Romano-British plus there are a number of credible sites for Bannavem Taburniae. What we know as Wales and its associated identity was basically a post-roman development.
addition
“plus there are a number of credible sites for Bannavem Taburniae” – not just in Wales.
The issues around the 17th March are the issues of single identity v shared space. Patrick is not the exclusive property of Irish nationalism.
FD
No one claimed him to be. But that doesn’t mean unionists should be permitted to determine just how Irish people wish to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day- as their political leaders attempt to do in Belfast by restricting expressions of an Irish identity.
Bit like me arguing that nationalists should declare their willingness to celebrate the 12th as a shared celebration alongside unionists and be permitted to demand no display of union flags or any other items identified with unionism/ loyalism.
On the matter of minority/ majority rights, you are correct to point out that unionists rarely resort to the minority rights argument. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t assumed regularly.
The repercussions of the minority rights with regard to the display of flags/ emblems, in a reciprocal context, would be Lisburn, Ballymena and Larne adorned with Irish National flags and open to republican parades.
The Ballymena parade (see thread) provided a clear indication of where unionists stand on that.
Until unionism deals with this unwillingness to accomodate political expressions of the Irish nationalist identity in precisely the same manner they are seeking nationalists to accomodate expressions of the British/ protestant identity, your complaints will fall on deaf ears.
“No one claimed him to be. But that doesn’t mean unionists should be permitted to determine just how Irish people wish to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day- as their political leaders attempt to do in Belfast by restricting expressions of an Irish identity.”
We aren’t claiming it as ours but Unionists are to have no input to how to ensure it is shared. Huh?
When a celebration is organised with the symbols of Irish nationalism (including free republican prisoner flags) and duffing up school kids it looks like they are claiming it to be.
“Bit like me arguing that nationalists should declare their willingness to celebrate the 12th as a shared celebration alongside unionists and be permitted to demand no display of union flags or any other items identified with unionism/ loyalism.”
No it is not like that at all as they are not comparable events or histories of celebration.
There is no sustained history of nationalists marking the twelfth nor should they be compelled to do so simply because others do.
However, there is a history of people from a British, protestant or Unionist perspective recognising the importance of Patrick and marking the event.
Hence why it is an issue of shared space not single identity space.
“The Ballymena parade (see thread) provided a clear indication of where unionists stand on that.”
If you mean this thread
http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/dup_hypocrisy_over_right_to_march/
You conveniently omit that SF and the SDLP opposed it as well.
It was also a contradiction that I described as:
“Just plain wrong.”
I can admit when Unionism contradicts itself and admit when it is wrong.
“Until unionism deals with this unwillingness to accomodate political expressions of the Irish nationalist identity ”
There have been the not insubtstantial accomodations of power-sharing, NSMC etc.
As nationalist demand removal of Unionist flags no matter what the local circumstances, have a difficulty in not saying sectarian or the b-word any time the Unionist community does something, develop a speech impediment when its the name of the second city/one of the counties, daft ‘here or there’ orders to civil servants lest the cursed words ‘Northern Ireland’ pass their lips, recognising the Royal family etc
It seems an inability to accomodate ‘political expressions’ is not an exclusively Unionist problem.
Fair Deal
1. It seems an inability to accomodate ‘political expressions’ is not an exclusively Unionist problem.
Quite correct, though it is a problem which, while nationalists have proven much more willing to confront- hence the ‘Equality or Neutrality’ policy of Sinn Fein, accomodations such as the various unionist marches within the overwhelmingly nationalist city of Derry (and other similarly majority nationalist towns such as Newry) which all contrast with unionism’s refusal to reciprocate, regardless of your own ‘personal’ position.
2. Regarding the recognition of the names of cities/ geographic entities, that’s more a problem for unionists, who insist on being offended when nationalists refer to ‘Derry’ or ‘the north of Ireland’ when nationalists are as entitled to use those phrases as unionists to refer to londonderry or northern ireland (which nicely brings us back to the problem of acknowledging the equal legitimacy of traditions.)
3. “No it is not like that at all as they are not comparable events or histories of celebration.
“There is no sustained history of nationalists marking the twelfth nor should they be compelled to do so simply because others do.”
Right back at you regarding St. Patrick’s Day. Indeed, across the globe few people will without direct ties to the north of Ireland will know anything about 12th July; in contrast, very few will not know about celebrations held on March 17th by Irish people across the globe.
If nationalists in the north wish to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day as an expression of Irishness, then that is hardly different from unionists using the 12th July to celebrate protestantism/ unionism.
4. Nationalists do not have a problem with unionists flying flags everywhere, only within what is commonly perceived to be ‘shared spaces’ or majority nationalist areas. Unionists, as I pointed out in my piece, have yet to seriously even countenance reciprocating tolerance towards the flying of the Irish National flag in ‘shared spaces’ or majority unionist areas, so this is hardly a justifiable unionist grievance- confronting this and seeking a permanent resolution would require unionism explicitly accepting the equal legitimacy of both traditions, a challenge unionism has yet to take seriously.
Chris
You have tried to construct a reasonbly extensive thread and I appreciate that however there are a few points I would like to raise.
Over the 12th period you have claimed that Orange Halls have been attacked and negated this by highlighting some of the thugery on display at bonfires, attacks on gaa clubs and pointing out that a paramilitary banner was on parade in Belfast.
First of all the attacks on gaa clubs have been described as general vandilism rather than sectarian attacks.
Secondly considering there were over 80,000 orangemen/women on parade the banner that you have continually mentioned has been overplayed, it should not have been there and work is going on to have it removed for next years 12th.
Your demands for bonfires are unrealistic, Irish tricolours and Sinn Fein/IRA regalia will always be burned and I like many others in my community am completely in favour of this. The references to KAT however are a disgrace and have no place at bonfires.
Finally on these threads in slugger people Nationalists are very quick to cliam that there is a place for Protestants in a ‘shared Ireland’ but there is no place for their culture such as Orangeism. What I would like to point out is that OO since the ceasefires has only managed to get larger and it will still be here and going strong in 100 years from now. People need to accept that this is an important part of our cuture and stop unfairly ridiculing it.
No way I could tackle all that but
1. I think you are wrong that the 12th can’t open up, Chris. It is an expression of a purely Unionist identity, but there are plenty of festivals and parades around the world that don’t express my identity and I can enjoy. The National flag has a third and equal pillar of orange. If we are ever to get to a truly United Ireland, then that pillar needs not just respected, but backed.
The problem is that it is impossible for Nationalism to back the OO and associated activities as it is at the moment. Nationalism needs to narrow down and zone in on the things it sees as problems, and work to get them resolved, rather than a general distaste. And where things have changed, or there are no objections, we should back them and work to hep widen appeal. Is there really any reason we couldn’t cautiously back Ulster Scots?
2. 11th Night bonfires / funding. The solution is simple. There needs to be a sufficient number of official, well regulated sites and the rest need banned and stamped down on. Never mind the sectarianism, they are an environmental nightmare, and trail down the look of the place for months. Random burning of stuff wouldn’t be tolerated the rest of the year and it shouldn’t be tolerated now. It would probably save money too, some of which could be spent on improving the experience with fireworks and the like.
3. St Patrick’s Day. There were never parades until Nationalism started organising them, at which point Unionists decided that actually, it was important to them and you couldn’t have any tricolours. It sticks in my craw like nothing else. I have no problems with people celebrating their Irishness in whatever way makes them happy, but if they are using it to block mine thy can piss off.
4. Feile is looking good this year, and certainly rivals some of the other festivals throughout the year. I think though that while the August Belfast festivals should remain independently organised to retain a community aspect, it might be helpful to advertise (and perhaps fund / get sponsorship) under a single banner to help promote them.
“Your demands for bonfires are unrealistic, Irish tricolours and Sinn Fein/IRA regalia will always be burned and I like many others in my community am completely in favour of this.”
Or you know, alternatively, just let Unionism kill itself with stuff like this.
kensei: St Patrick’s Day. There were never parades until Nationalism started organising them,
Have you got a date for that? If not, how can you be sure?
Reader – page 50, Material Conflicts – Neil Jarman
talking of the Ribbonmen –
” also prominent in establishing a tradition of paradng in the Catholic community, one which reflected the importance of religion as a marker of collective identity (Wright 1966). It was at this time that St Patrick’s day was confirmed as a popular and specifically catholic event;”
There’s quite a lot more, but the drift is that
” St. Patrick seems to have been co-opted and sectarianised as a Catholic Irish saint, in he same way and at broadly the same time as King William was redefined as a Protestant hero “.
Chris – I’d be interested in your thoughs on what seems to be doube standards over feile an phobail.
“Quite correct, though it is a problem which, while nationalists have proven much more willing to confront”
1. Have they? Maybe my view is jaded by the nastiness that releases itself any time the OO is mentioned on a slugger thread but I think you are over-estimating the achievements and progress in thinking.
2. Also you are displaying something of a year zero attitude to Unionism. I have listed a range of things Unionism has accomodated itself to. Unionism is not living in some sort of political/cultural nirvana of hegemony.
3. Easy to claim but not put into practice eg Londonderry’s name, paramilitary displays (Loyalist = bad but PIRA = A-OK).
“Right back at you regarding St. Patrick’s Day”
1. I am afraid that simply displays an ignorance about the Unionist community, Patrick and 17th March.
2. In Belfast there are Unionist communities who have expressed interest in a shared event.
“If nationalists in the north wish to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day as an expression of Irishness,”
Again another nationalist contradiction. Is it a celebration for all or is it a day for Irish nationalist celebration? It usually gets pitched as the former but if you ask queries you get shouts of denying the latter. The Andytown news editorials were very good at displaying this inconsistency.
If you want it as an Irish nationalist day say so and seek the funding on that basis and accept that the political trade off for the funding on this basis will be funding for the Twelfth.
Personally think Patrick’s Day can be something bigger than that but such is life.
“that’s more a problem for unionists”
You started so well but maybe stop trying to shift the issue back over the fence and let the self-examination go a little further.
So when nationalists don’t accomodate Unionist political expressions that is their “entitlement” but if Unionists do it its a “refusal to reciprocate”. Hmmm.
“accomodations such as the various unionist marches within the overwhelmingly nationalist city of Derry ”
1. Yes the minorities there have to go and negotiate what nationalists argue in a NI context should be guaranteed to the minority. Minorities that feel so welcome in those places they are generally voting with their feet and leaving. Is that their fault too for seeking ‘offence’? The inclusive city that when Londonderry Unionist mayor said he wished to make the issue of alienation a priority during his term of office it raised an interesting reaction. For example the Derry Journal editorial minimised the issue’s importance claimed a chunk of it was made up and that it was primarily Unionists job to do something about it and that anyway everything is great. Almost reminiscent of the attitude of Unionists to nationalist complaints in the 50′s and 60′s.
Link
2. Also your argument ignores the places with no accomodations. In fact this year the number of deals reduced e.g North Belfast.
3. As for your specific example the organisers in Ballymena didn’t make any attempt at dialogue but then mainstream republicans in North Belfast haven’t worried about that or other things they demand of Unionists either on occasion.
Link
Plus Republicans seek to undermine the right to march here while in Scotland this right is worth fighting to establish:
Link
4. It may be my own view but it is a start compared with presenting such issues as always a problem of the other.
“Nationalists do not have a problem with unionists flying flags everywhere, only within what is commonly perceived to be ‘shared spaces’ or majority nationalist areas”
Nice soundbyte but what is a ‘shared space’? How do you define the area to determine majority or minority?
Again you display the contradiction of nationalism in one context seeking minority protections then seeking to refuse them when in a majority and go on to attack others for inconsistency.
Some do. Nationalists objected to one flag at IKEA in ‘majority Unionist’ east Belfast claiming only Orange Halls would do such things even though this is their practice across the world. Or does that come under commerical area but where does it start/end? Nationalists objected to a Union flag display for less than an hour at a british legion event in Limavady. The organiser of Ogra Shinn Fein pulling down a Union flag flying along with other flags and boasting about it on their blogsite days after GA called for all activists to reach out to the Unionist tradition. Then there was the Antrim Sinn Fein councillor who showed openess with the declaration:
“My tradition cannot support the Royal British Legion.â€
Or the SF spokesperson who can’t remember Unionists exist on the island.
Link
Look for contradictions in the positions of the respective camps and there are plenty. It can be a bit of fun or maybe even score a cheap but largely meaningless point. The search for advantage usually trumps consistency.
However, seeking to make it a problem of the other or hide one ideology’s contradictions by claiming their contradictions are less than the other is of no value.
I would also raise the point that the two main communities need not be carbon copies of one another. Flags bunting arches wall murals etc are a much stronger tradition among Unionism. Regardless of the reasons for this, it doesn’t mean Irish nationalism must emulate/copy/compete with that.
PS I won’t be able to further this evening if you chose to reply.
A bit more thoughtful thread from Chris Donnelly compared to the usual bigotry! However, it does have some familiar trademarks.
Republicans have accepted the principle of consent. Therefore, the land you walk on in Northern Ireland is British – which means the Union flag is the official flag with the Northern Ireland flag representing us within the UK.
Of course it doesn’t mean everyone feels Ulster British – but if they say they accept the principle of consent, we need to see it in action by showing respect to the Union and Northern Ireland flags above other flags and symbols.
Protestant Unionists have (or were forced to) accept the Irish Republic – including its flags and symbols. Pan-Nationalists need to do the same in Northern Ireland if we are to have a settled peaceful future.
you couldn’t have made this coma inducing drivel any longer, yawn. I stopped reading after 30 secs, and another 30 secs of my life asted reading crap on sluggerotoole.
get a life mate, it is probably damaging your mental health coming on here as much as you do. (im actually being serious btw)
“He was Romano-British plus there are a number of credible sites for Bannavem Taburniae. What we know as Wales and its associated identity was basically a post-roman development.
Posted by fair_deal on Jul 22, 2007 @ 11:37 AM”
Patric was Welsh – there is a picture of him on my local rugby club wall kiling snakes mun !
This doesn’t read like a Republican view to me, maybe some kind of noveau Republicanism-lite reflecting the current SF/DUP accommodation, this equal yet competing rights nonsense reads like it’s from an SDLP handbook.
How any Republican can hold out a cloak of legitimacy to the bigoted, sectarian and intimidation linked organisation that is the OO is beyond me.
This supremacist organisation has a philosophy centred around maintaining the British occupation in Ireland even worse occupation with a purely Protestant only focus.
Looking for the positives in this organisation and linking it to legitimate expressions of celebratory Irishness doesn’t read like Republicanism to me.
Republicanism is now about creating space for supremacist, bigots? Maybe to you.
“Again another nationalist contradiction. Is it a celebration for all or is it a day for Irish nationalist celebration?”
I would note that everywhere else on the planet, like it or no, it’s more or less a celebration of the Ireland that Nationalism identifies with – even in say, London. And it’s more than a bit annoying to be left out.
However the answer to your question is that the problem is that Unionism sees those things as mutually exclusive.
St.Patrick had no connection with the Roman Catholic Church. He was an evangelical Christian who regarded the Bible as the supreme authority on which Christians should depend.He is a saint whose main missionary work was done in Ulster and it surprises me that his memory is celebrated by the Catholic community in an atmosphere of green beer and Republican flag waving and parading aimed at creating instability and reinforcing division.
T.Ruth
“St.Patrick had no connection with the Roman Catholic Church.”
FFS, seeing as how he was sent to Ireland BY A POPE, this is factually incorrect.
“Have you got a date for that? If not, how can you be sure?”
Ah, I must have missed all those parades during my childhood then :rolleyes:
Fair Deal
Not going to argue with you piece by piece as I’ve a feeling we’re merely covering old ground in a groundhog sort of manner (enjoyable though it is, I’ve a Law and Order re-run to warch…)
The most interesting aspect of your welcome reply relates to the definition of shared space.
In that, I’ll make the following observation. In this society, which remains deeply segregated, to the extent that the Housing Executive has come up with its own rules to govern ‘integrated’ housing pilots in Fermanagh and Down, people know when they’re living in a ‘mixed’ area.
Now, some may not be happy unless and until we get the calculator out and demographically analyse wards/ SOAs to formally declare areas thus, but I’ve a feeling that you know all too well that even areas showing themselves to be mixed at such a level are in effect still segregated, with subtle (and not so subtle) dividing lines to be found everywhere.
The rule of thumb for the remaining areas, therefore, is more straightforward: would those erecting flags and bunting in mixed residential communities be so accomodating if the flags and bunting in the same location reflected the national identity of the ‘other’ community?
On the issue of parading, I’m afraid you’re not really moving beyond the shaky ground unionism continues to occupy. The Ballymena example illustrated how unionist political leaders and loyalist paramilitaries reacted to the very notion of a ‘contentious’ nationalist/ republican parade in what they perceived to be ‘their’ area, though it was in actual fact a majority nationalist estate- in that regard, your highlighting of republican opposition to unionist parades across the Peace line in north/ west Belfast is ridiculous.
On the St. Patrick’s Day matter, unionists wishing to celebrate the day should be encouraged to do so however they see fit, but not to restrict the manner in which nationalists seek to do so (akin to the rest of the world) simply because some unionist political leaders can’t stand the sight of a Tricolour.
Cruimh
I believe I answered your query as to the Bratty banner on that specific thread, but I’ll sum it up again.
The Orange Order have consistently stated they oppose ‘terrorism’/ have no truck with it and, this year in particular, have been presented as providing a family day out at Orangefest which no one could find offensive. Yet, in keeping with previous years, the Order once again sought to parade in contentious areas which heightened tensions in those areas, not least because the eve of the parades witnessed the annual sectarian orgy that is the flag/ poster burning bonfires.
The relevancy of the banners to loyalist paramilitary figures (Bratty was not alone) is that they illustrate the fallacy of the presentation.
Now, I mightn’t like the carrying of such banners by Orangemen, but if the parades were restricted to unionist areas and the Order a bit more honest about exactly what it represents and celebrates then I could not possibly object.
Feile an Phobail is a community festival rooted in the republican/ nationalist community-make no bones about that. It provides a wide breadth of activities and exhibitions, none of which are imposed upon the unionist community in a provocative manner (for instance, no one will be seeking to march from Ligoneil down to Ardoyne carrying banners of republican leaders.) Indeed, in the provision of cross-community discussions and concerts clearly appealing to all, the Feile has been a success in attracting non-nationalists to its list of annual visitors. And, of course, the bonfire tradition, complete with burning of Union flags, has all but disappeared in nationalist areas across the north directly as a conseequence of the leadership provided by political and community leaders in the past 15-20 years.