The Twelfth in Basrah, Iraq by the Irish Guards
Troops in Iraq also held Twelfth celebrations with a touch of humour by staging protests demanding the parade be rerouted.
Basra LOL 1
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Reader,
Have another try. Specific Germans were tried for war crimes, not the whole German army. Similarly, it’s up to you to make a case against individuals.
I think Prince Eoghan makes a valid point to other about the Nuremberg trial. As German soldiers did indeed use the “we were told to fight” argument.
As a result, a general principle of natural justice was revived, allowing for people to be tried for their actions regardless of whether they were acting under orders.
Using the same logic, any soldier acting against natural justice is committing a criminal act.
Is the British Army’s presence in Iraq naturally just?
Did the Iraqi Tourist Board claim that “all the hotels were full” for this one?
Matt,
The only complaint is the fact that this bit of ‘craic’ is contributed by a sectarian scumbag who also contributes ‘Kill All Taigs’.
You can defend him all you like, either by distraction or nonsense but it doesn’t disguise the fact you are defending a hatemonger.
I also add I extend similar sentiments to the soldier during his stay in Iraq that he wishes on others.
GEORGE
I think Prince Eoghan makes a valid point to other about the Nuremberg trial. As German soldiers did indeed use the “we were told to fight†argument. As a result, a general principle of natural justice was revived, allowing for people to be tried for their actions regardless of whether they were acting under orders.
Only when their actions were deemed to be war crimes. So a German soldier killing an Allied soldier in a “lawful” act of war was not guilty, notwithstanding the fact that the war itself was illegal (“war of aggression”). However, a German soldier facilitating the gassing of Jews was guilty of a war crime, even if he was “only obeying orders”, since the latter is a war crime.
Using the same logic, any soldier acting against natural justice is committing a criminal act. Is the British Army’s presence in Iraq naturally just?
Any British soldier committing a war crime in Iraq is guilty, even if he was ordered to do so. Simply being in Iraq and acting within the laws of armed conflict, however, is not a crime, even if the war itself is illegal.
Willowfield,
“Only when their actions were deemed to be war crimes”
No, that’s the whole point. Nuremberg took justice out of the realm of such trifles as deeming what constitutes a “war crime” and firmly rooted it in natural justice.
Natural justice is a greater law, above humanity’s grubby mitts. These are permanent, immutable laws.
Humanity’s definition of what constitutes war crime varies, natural justice is always the same.
So without natural justice we can have a situation where Winston Churchill advocates gassing the Kurds of Iraq (but is overruled and mass bombing of civilians is carried out instead) and this isn’t “deemed” a war crime but Saddam Hussein does something similar and is.
With natural justice, things are either right or wrong, there is no deeming, they just are.
If the British Army’s presence in Iraq contravenes natural justice, then all are criminals by their very presence.
Which brings us back to:
Is the British Army’s presence in Iraq naturally just?
It’s good to see that, amid all of the suspicious car bombs and a country on a collision course with balkanization, the men with the guns can still have a chuckle.
Frank”You can defend him all you like, either by distraction or nonsense but it doesn’t disguise the fact you are defending a hatemonger.
I also add I extend similar sentiments to the soldier during his stay in Iraq that he wishes on others”
Surely a bigot like you can see the irony of calling someone a hatemonger then wishing death on them?
My previous posts refer to the hate and venom thrown at this young man because of what he is. Also thge hate thrown at the RIR for what seems to me to be a harmless bit of fun, clearly enjoyed by all the soliders regardless of religion.
To the site ownership -
I must say Mick im shocked at you letting this one stay. This young man is now being subjected abusive messages wishing him death, clearly by some of your well read readership. Poor show all round.
LOL.
The bastard has a ‘Kill All Taigs’ message on his profile.
Spare me your angst.
It is telling that you choose to support this bigoted cretin.
Summary:
Pictures above: very amusing.
Other content on his bebo page (especially the kiddy-style Nokia speak): very disturbing.
His page seriously makes me wonder should I not re-evaluate my opinion of the army, and not in a positive way.
hilarious to see Provo supporters attacking the Brits for doing what they do. The Brits still have their weapons and their army. what did we get for surrendering ours?
I must say that I found the photos quite sardonic after a bit of reflexion.
The idea of the Irish Guards – a unit with a long history of fighting Britain’s colonial wars, even at home – being on duty to maintain order in Muslim Basra under the auspices of the UN certainly was quite sarcastic.
In this setting, acting as if they were on duty in Northern Ireland – with the Orange bits, and comparing Osama bin-Laden with nationalist march protesters while an Irish troublemaker loomed along the sidelines, and the old RUC tried to maintain order – struck me as quite funny, especially given the mindless nonsense that most military formations engage in when they try to be humorous.
It all seemed a most sarcastic comment on their leaders, especially Phony Tony and Poodle Brown.
It all seems to show the real need of onlookers figuring out the message being sent rather than engaging in expected knee-jerk fashion.
“the choice of ‘Rising Sons’ as the name of their merry band is unfortunate and downright insensitive as it links to the UFF massacre at the Rising Sun bar in Greysteel…..”
Tediously tendentious even by your standards, Olly. I can imagine that you would believe the people of Greysteel do little else than scan the world’s media for any oblique or tendential reference to words that sound like “Rising” and “Sun” and then collapse in a tizzy of post traumatic stress. But then again I know some of the victims,who have more sense.
Oh, and they don’t think the many Orange lodges and bands who use the style “Rising Sons of…” and who have used it for decades- like the 150 year old lodge “Rising Sons of Killegar” in County Leitrim, got into their time machines, came forward to the late 20th century, looked for a uniquely offensive title and adopted it 100 years before the bar existed, nevermind the massacre.
But then, they have real lives, and real perspectives unlike the MOPE muppets out on this thread in force. Frankly in trying to be oppressed and offended you’re even embarassing to your own. Sometimes I wonder whether people aren’t just happier wallowing in their own ignorance and self pity rather than waste my time educating you.
>>unlike the MOPE muppets out on this thread< <
Paradoxically we wouldn't have to look too far to see who is the biggest apologist for sectarian bigotry hereabouts Darth, now would we?
>>I wonder whether people aren’t just happier wallowing in their own ignorance and self pity rather than waste my time educating you.< <
Oh pleaaaaaase! If only you would stop this Charlie from big brother type ego trip. Let's hope your coupon isn't as hard on the eye as hers, or those scants don't go too far up yir crack that you risk losing them. How does consistent excusing of Unionist thuggery qualify as educating anybody? Gie's a break!
>>Prince Eoghan: The Germans deemed culpable of war crimes tried that defence at the Nuremberg trials you know, not with much success!
Have another try. Specific Germans were tried for war crimes, not the whole German army. Similarly, it’s up to you to make a case against individuals. <<
Have another try yourself pal. The key words are ‘deemed culpable’ without digesting that you are on to plums! George explains it pretty well. Incidently the Russki’s probably did treat the whole German army as culpable of war crimes. They however had no need for a victors show trial that was Nuremberg.
Trowbridge: “comparing Osama bin-Laden with nationalist march protesters”
It looks like Osama was wearing a sash. Doesn’t that compare Osama to the orangemen? Anyway – they are obviously doing the whole thing as a joke – as the presence of the protesters and police show. It certainly made me laugh – and reminded me of Halloween in Derry where loads of people dress up as RUC and do roadblocks – sometimes jointly with people dressed as IRA.
Just checked the bebo site. One of his friends has a combat 18 logo. Maybe the joke of this parade was on him.
Can I claim my prize for invoking Goodwins Law on this thread?
It’s ‘Godwin’ and, no, you can’t. In this case the comparison (To what extent is a soldier morally culpable when his defence is ‘I was only following orders’) is a reasonable one.
It’s all off-topic anyway, I found the pictures generally unfunny and the guys bebo site downright worrying. Found it strange also, that he says ‘Kill all Taigs’ and then the taigs who complain get called b1gots.
Noticed they marched in the barracks.Why didnt they march thru Basra, could it be that they`re not wanted there either.
The one positive I can find in all this is that they are in Basra and not Belfast. We can do without members of the British Army who believe in the Kill All Taigs sentiment being based here.
rights and wrongs of OO, the 12th, KAT etc you guys are taking the subject matter here far too far, i mean its getting silly, i doubt this amount of political analysis went in assessing the motives of the ‘basra 12th’
as for the bebo page the work of one guy and some pretty sectarian mates but you have to admit that they have only a passing connection to the photos we are supposed to be discussing
for example
1. they are talking the piss out of the RUC
2. they are taking the piss out of the OO
3. they are taking the piss out of nationalists
4. they are taking the piss out of Bin Laden
5. there is no anti catholic sentiment
6. they are in Basra for f*cks sake!
its an attempt at humour leave it at that, i didnt here this much crap when they did “avenues and alleyways” out there
and this thread could been so much fun….. (for a change)
oliber comheall
“Given the penchant of the British Army to commemorate its famous battle victories with banners and the likes, the choice of ‘Rising Sons’ as the name of their merry band is unfortunate and downright insensitive as it links to the UFF massacre at the Rising Sun bar in Greysteel…..”
you have been listening to comedy daves tedious link too much me thinks mate
Cheers D
I could mention the additional law about pointing out spelling mistakes, you b1got you!
Darth, you make a great apologist for the British Army. There’s a world of difference between a 150 year old lodge in Leitrim which has always gone by the name of the Rising Sons and a British Army unit adapting the name as a ‘piss take’ on the situation in north, today, when they know well the connotations it has. They seem to have every angle covered in terms of being gratuitiously offensive – pity the poor Iraqis who have to put up with their schoolboy antics.
No good either putting down observations which point out the dark side of the British and the Orange and the links between them as MOPERY. They asked for it – they or their pals posted the pictures. This is a discussion board, it’s where we comment on what we see. I merely posted a comment and that’s my opinion. I think men with guns should be more responsible than kids in a schoolyard, call that MOPERY if you like.
The British Army is far from being the modern army of professionals it tries to portray to the world – it’s obviously a motley gathering of half witted bigoted buffoons as this series of pictures and the other links on this thread so amply illustrate….
A brief look at many youngsters pages on bebo from both sides of the community will show similar banter and pictures for example here:-
http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?MemberId=586016045&PhotoNbr=1&PhotoAlbumId=587813708
note the psni badge same as on this guys but in irish colours calling them scum etc etc….thats bebo for ya!.
The Irish News has follow up today.
The guy that posted the images and organised the parade – the kill All Taigs chap – wasn’t involved in the humourous aspects. Neither were any of those marching dressed as Orangemen.
They had staged the parade to celebrate the 12th and other uninvolved soldiers decided to take the piss out of their efforts. They had no idea about the fake cops and protest until they started their march.
So it seems the Kill All taigs guy doesn’t have a sense of humour either and he’s just a thorough bigot.
A typical 12th story.
Good stuff! Fair play to our boys out in Iraq for marking the Glorious Twelfth.
Frank S
Shhh you will just confuse them with logic and insight.
they only understand the stereo typical taig response they exppect
Someone has to teach the Iraqis about sectarian bigotry!
The average squaddie is an intellectual pygmy. The average officer is a pygmy with pips. The photographs show the innate stupidity and sectarian penchant of these idiots. That they were allowed to do it shows a lack of kop on by their “superiors”. Or maybe they were hunkered down in a bunker somewhere?
Can’t wait until Martin Luther King Day to see them all dressed as KKK members. Or maybe they are saving the white sheets in case the Shia’s come a knocking in numbers!
Now that I’ve considered this further, I realise I should apologise to Darth Rumsfeld and other unionist commentators for crassly raising the issue of the Greysteel Rising Sun massacre. Of course there’s no link between that and the Rising Sons of Ulster in Basra. Heaven forfend that the thought should cross my mind.
After all this was only a jolly jape and a genuine celebration of culture in the desert….how could I get it so wrong?
Frank S – fascinating update: so the rest of the troops take the piss out of the NI section of the British army (or were they other members of the Irish Guards – the catholic ones perhaps)
“After all this was only a jolly jape and a genuine celebration of culture in the desert….how could I get it so wrong?”
Olly, all right thinking people have been asking that question since you started posting
I’m glad you’re so in touch with the zeitgest, Darth….. you’re the man!
GEORGE
No, that’s the whole point. Nuremberg took justice out of the realm of such trifles as deeming what constitutes a “war crime†and firmly rooted it in natural justice. Natural justice is a greater law, above humanity’s grubby mitts. These are permanent, immutable laws. Humanity’s definition of what constitutes war crimes varies, natural justice is always the same.
I don’t think you are clear about the concept of natural justice and its relevance to Nuremberg. Natural justice relates essentially to the existence and operation of legal processes and procedures (fair trial, etc.), rather than defining what is and what isn’t criminal. Nonetheless, I await a citation of the Nuremberg Tribunal’s statements on natural justice.
PARTICIPANTS IN A WAR OF AGGRESSION
Setting aside the theory and philosophy for the time being, your point essentially is that mere participation in an illegal war is of itself a war crime and that consequently, if one accepts that the Iraq war was illegal, British squaddies even of the most junior rank are war criminals, even if their own personal conduct within the war was exemplary.
Since you have cited Nuremberg, it is useful to look at Principle VI of the Nuremberg Principles, which provides that “(i) planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; and (ii) participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentions under (i)†are war crimes.
You will note that the emphasis is on planning and initiating. At Nuremberg, those indicted of these crimes were those held responsible for planning and initiating the Second World War (namely the Nazi leadership). A distinction was made between these leaders and the mass of servicemen who took part in the war of aggression, not having played any part in its planning or initiation.
It is arguable that Tony Blair, his Cabinet, other advisers (including perhaps military top brass) are war criminals by virtue of their having initiated a war of aggression on Iraq. But it is not arguable, based on Nuremberg, that every single serviceman and woman who participated in the war was guilty of this particular crime.
“ONLY OBEYING ORDERSâ€
Previously you have alluded to the rejection of the “only obeying orders†defence at Nuremberg. You will know that the disregarding of this defence was controversial at the time and since, but nonetheless, it was considered by many to be just, given the gravity of the crimes being tried (crimes against humanity).
The laws of war have evolved since Nuremberg and the current law is articulated in article 33 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court (“superior orders and prescription of lawâ€), which provides:
1. The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or superior, whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal responsibility unless:
(a) the person was under legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question;
(b) the person did not know that the order was unlawful; and
(c) the order was not manifestly unlawful.
2. For the purposes of this article, orders to commit genocide or crimes against humanity are manifestly unlawful.
You can see, therefore, that the disregarding of the “only obeying orders†defence is now qualified.
GEORGE (contd.)
So with natural justice we can have a situation where Winston Churchill advocates gassing the Kurds of Iraq (but is overruled and mass bombing of civilans is carried out instead) and this isn’t “deemed†a war crime but Saddam Hussein does something similar and is. With natural justice, things are either right or wrong, there is no deeming, they just are.
I think you are conflating two separate issues. Under international law, mass bombing of civilians – no matter by whom – is illegal. The concepts of international law which we are discussing are customary, and so apply to all, including Winston Churchill.
The relevance to this of natural justice is that Churchill was not prosecuted for his alleged crimes, whereas the Nazis were, therby breaching the natural law principle that crimes should not go unpunished.
This is an entirely independent issues to the question of junior soldiers’ guilt in respect of war crimes.
Thanks for those fascinating posts, Willowfield
If you’re not interested in reading about and discussing these issues, why do you waste your time on the site?
“”british soldiers celebrating British history, good lads.
The only thing sectarian about this is the nationalist hatred as displayed on this board of anything british”
Whaaa? Brit history?
A Dutch prince kicks the ballicks out of a French king on Irish soil and it’s Brit history?
No harm to ye Observer but yer holes open
” Under international law, mass bombing of civilians – no matter by whom – is illegal. The concepts of international law which we are discussing are customary, and so apply to all, including Winston Churchill”
Three words Willie
Bomber Harris & Dresden
What a joke, monty python would have been proud of such a display. Meanwhile I note that all British troops in Basra province are stationed at Basra Airport, which was mortared again today btw, for a quick exit, which will come very sooooooooon mr brooooooooonwe.
>>Someone has to teach the Iraqis about sectarian bigotry!<<
Aye they are just learning it! Who better than the rising sons of satan to teach them. Thanks for the info Frank, enlightening! If you look at the pictures again you can see the serious intent of the brethren. I hope they were mocked for the arseholes that they are.
USA and the GAY BOMB.
Received a newsletter from the US Forces this morning, the main story was that it has been leaked that the US government has been working on a “GAY BOMB” that will release pheromones that will when breathed in or if it touches the skin, will arouse the recipients and make them desire the same sex,and will be a strong aphrodisiac and by doing so will limit their fighting ability, as they will be too occupied with other persuits to bother about killing G I’s. The sample of the bomb has already been tried out on a small number of Irish Guards volunteers and here is the result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUyf_RmQWlU
would it matter if it was st patricks day
What a bunch of uptight whiners! No sense of humor, maybe if you were being shot at day in and day out you would lighten up a bit. I am glad they are all getting a little bit of humor in a dark place. Give them a break!
Looks like George ran away from this one – didn’t have the courtesy even to acknowledge the effort I went to to respond to him.
Does anybody wearin the green have a sense of humour?? or are they all the grassy knowle type. for God sake laugh at it and get your heads out of your aresholes. Conspiracy! conspiracy!conspiracy!
I agree, even the poster about “killing all taigs”.
It seemed quite Pythonesque to me since the IRISH guards were participating in a Unionist march to achieve this result.
Reminded me of when Michael Palin’s Arab suicide bombers appeared to save the crucified Brian in the life thereof – only to commit suicide themselves.