“And now, from the people who brought us Limbo..”
Whilst I’m not a supernaturalist [you're not?! - Ed] the politics, both internal and external, of the organisations involved are still interesting to watch. The latest being the approval by Emperor Pope Benedict XVI of a document – available here – which, as the Irish Times front page report notes, “reaffirms points originally outlined in the document Dominus Iesus, issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 2000 when it was headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict.” The IT also notes the reactions of other, similar, organisations
The president of the Methodist Church in Ireland, Rev Roy Cooper, expressed dismay at its content, while a spokesman for the Presbyterian Church in Ireland pointed out that, in its view, it is the Roman Catholic Church which is in error. A spokesman for the Church of Ireland, Archbishop of Dublin Most Rev John Neill, said: “We regard the Church of Ireland as having full apostolic succession.” The World Alliance of Reformed Churches said the document “makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the Reformed family and other families of the church”.
The Irish Times’ religious affairs correspondent, Patsy McGarry, explains what the document says [subs req]From the Irish Times report
And now, from the people who brought us Limbo, then took it away. Who gave us Hell, took it away too, and have since tried to give it back to us. Who gave us the Latin Mass, took it from us, and gave it back last Saturday.
Yes, from those same people we now have a repeat, summer-time restatement of why being Roman Catholic is “simply the best”. Furthermore, they explain again why being Protestant is to be a yellow-pack Christian.
Yes, from the very people who under Pope Paul VI told us that Christians who were Protestant belonged to “sister churches” of the Roman Catholic Church, we are being told again that Protestant (Reformed) churches are not really sister churches at all.
Now, they are not even churches “in the proper sense”. A bit like St Christopher, they have been demoted. They are now mere “ecclesial communities”. You could say they remain in something of an ecclesiological Limbo. If Limbo still existed.
Pity our Anglicans, our Presbyterians, our Methodists, etc. They do not know it really, despite being told before, but their priests/ministers are not really priests or ministers at all. And as for their Holy Communion – it’s a sham! All a sham.
Even if, when in 1997 Cardinal Desmond Connell used that word after President McAleese received communion at a Church of Ireland Eucharist service in Dublin’s Christ Church Cathedral, he meant it was “a sham” for a Roman Catholic like her to do such a thing. But, let’s be frank, it is the Holy Orders and the Holy Communion of the Reformed Churches that Rome really sees as “a sham”.
To be fair and as you would expect, Cardinal William Levada, current prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, put in somewhat differently in yesterday’s document (which was approved by Pope Benedict).
He said: “According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘Churches’ in the proper sense.”
All of which can be summarised in one pithy word – sham!
“Nope – the humanity that gave you Rwanda, the killing fields of Cambodia and Auschwicz is as good as it gets with them.”
Uh…what?
“Uh…what?”
Putting your faith in the the inherent goodhess of mankind is likely to disappoint.
“Nope – the humanity that gave you Rwanda, the killing fields of Cambodia and Auschwicz is as good as it gets with them.â€
Uh…what?
Posted by Liam on Jul 12, 2007 @ 09:16 AM
“Uh…what?â€
Putting your faith in the the inherent goodhess of mankind is likely to disappoint.
Posted by Cruimh on Jul 12, 2007 @ 09:43 AM
Are you suggesting that it was some absence of strong religious belief that caused these atrocities? Humans have been mudering each other since the dawn of time, it doesn’t necessarily follow that we should abandon all hope for mankind and devote ourselves to worshipping a diety/deities instead. Surely we can at least aspire to a state of affairs where humankind co-exist peacefully even if it doesn’t exist at the moment, this seems like a far more proactive approach than leaving everything in the hands of the Gods.
Besides which, your logic cuts both ways, if e.g. Rwanda can be used as an example of the folly of having faith in the basic decency of the human race it can similarly be used to oppose any notion of a loving God because what sort of sadistic bastard of a deity would allow his creations to inflict that kind of cruelty on each other?
Well, there is more to Humanism than faith in the inherent goodness of humans. It encompasses rationality, compassion and working for the common good which were ideas not present in the orchestration of the aforsaid conflicts. Anyway, I have a large list of reasons to why I should leave the Catholic Church and they are all pretty obvious ones.
Liam – by all means leave Church – they are after all mere human creations. No need to leave God though – don’t be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
From the Irish Tmes, 2000:
For many years now, and in different versions, a joke about German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has been doing the Vatican rounds. The action takes place outside the gates of Heaven, where three new would-be residents have just arrived, Brazilian liberation theologian Leonardo Boff, dissident German theologian Hans Kung and Cardinal Ratzinger.
St Peter emerges from his shed-cum-gate-lodge to assess the new arrivals, telling them he wishes to interview all three. Leonardo Boff is the first to be shown into St Peter’s office.
Four hour later an exhausted-looking Boff emerges and stumbles over to the Pearly Gates, which open for him, muttering as he goes: “Oh, my goodness, that was so tough . . . I just never knew, I’m so sorry.”
Hans Kung is the next man into St Peter’s office. His stay is even longer, and after six hours he emerges, looking distraught and crushed. He, too, is muttering to himself: “Oh, my goodness, that was so tough . . . I just never knew, I’m so sorry, how could I have been so wrong.”
Finally, it is Ratzinger’s turn. His session with St Peter turns out to be longest of the lot.
After 72 hours, however, it is the exhausted, distraught St Peter himself who emerges from his office, heading for the Gates of Heaven and muttering to himself: “Oh, my goodness, that was so tough . . . That was the hardest thing I’ve ever done . . . How could I have been so wrong.”
Seamus Leahy
Do you really think God cares about apostolic succession or denominational differences generally?
Incidentally, the Anglican Church (and, I assume the Lutheran Church) have retained apostolic succession, so the RC logic fails if that is the basis for saying they are not churches.
“Liam – by all means leave Church – they are after all mere human creations. No need to leave God though – don’t be throwing the baby out with the bath water.”
Yeah, I think that’s partly my trouble with the Catholic Church. It is a human organisation pretending it has a supreme mandate from God. I just don’t have the faith to keep up a belief in a God in the theological sense, I would much prefer just to concentrate on the material world and in trying to make it better in my own way while I am still here. I don’t deny a spiritual element, I just can’t settle on its true nature.