Sammy in a frenzy over Taigs teaching the Troubles
It would appear the introduction of ‘The Troubles’ within the Key stage three school curriculum has upset Assembly Education Committee Chair, DUP MP Sammy Wilson. The one-time teacher and Assistant Chief Examiner for A-Level Economics is concerned that catholic teachers (or as he puts it, “those involved in the maintained sector”) will bring their politics with them.
The cheek (pun intended) of this man seems to know no bounds. Quite why catholic teachers should particularly give Sammy cause for concern remains a mystery that perhaps he could clarify for those of us involved in education.
Sammy may well be right here, Catholic (Maintained Sector) teachers are likely to bring the truth to the subject whereas the Protestant Teahers are likely to airbrush history to their selective churches indoctrinations.
Those same “teachers” within Protestant (state funded) schools are the same people that try to have you believe that the state was formed on Democratic principles – like one Protestant 1000 votes.
No doubt Sammy would love to explain to all how the country came to be divided against the will of the people, you know the 89% who voted for Home Rule and what it was exactly that gave the other 11% the Democratic right to form, at the barrell of a gun, a sectarian based 6 county state. I for one would love to hear Sammy’s version of history concerning this.
Is this one and the same sammy ‘bare arse’ wilson?
He was a teacher?
Sammy could be on a sticky wicket if his boss thinks he’s having a dig at Free Presbyterian Schools, eh Chris ?
v good Cruimh.
Sauce for the goose and all that Chris
http://recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/12951
maybe because a majority of catholics support an organisation that spent the best bit of the last 40 years trying to murder as many prods as it could?
I did A-level Irish History this year (1900-1925) The first year, the Northern Ireland Government came up, people assumed next year it would be the turn of the formation Free State, it didn’t come up. Neither have come up since. The Free State is on the course but some state schools don’t teach it because of teachers who think it doesn’t count.
Chris: You are from an area that specialised in the sectarian assassination of Protestants. Unless you will join Willie Frazer’s Dublin march, you should stfu on this. IMHO of course.
WHAT?!
Unless he goes to a march, he’s wrong and his opinion is invalid?
harry
that shit is why you ended up with the IRA.
The undefeated IRA…;-)
Like Ali G asked “is you ear on oliday?” [sic]
The exact quote is “Mr Wilson, chairman of the Assembly’s education committee, urged Northern Ireland’s teachers, particularly those employed in the maintained sector, to resist discussing their own opinions when teaching The Troubles.”
I would not subscribe to Sammy’s views re education – particularly as regards the integrated sector.
I would be more ambivalent regarding the maintained sector because as a product of it I found the lack of contact with protestants (and in my school the lack of girls!!) did not result in a very balanced education. Nor frequently was the political history taught at the time even remotely balanced (although friends in the state sector had the same experience from the other perspective).
In more recent years the attempt to provide all children with a more balanced history curriculum is to be applauded and the history of the troubles is a subject which I am pleased will be taught to my children as it important to develop an understanding of events (and perceptions of them) in order to understand one anothers point of view.
While this thread will no doubt descend into the mutual loathing and recrimination which has been sadly too evident in recent days on Slugger, at least if we had all had a balanced education on the troubles, (you know little facts such as the horrors committed in the name of both Mother Ireland and the Union, and that bigotry and ignorance in both communities underlies much of our current attitudes) we might start to find some common ground.
‘The undefeated IRA…;-)’
Yep Bob, that’s why they jacked it in without acheiving a single objective. Maybe they just got tired eh?
I am sorry to see that this most important matter has not received the care and attention it deserves, especially from my namesake, Trow is a doh.
Teaching The Troubles properly is such a minefield that little wonder most posters choose to engage in their favorite, irrelevant subject instead.
Setting the topic in a context where there is what Professor Bernard Bailyn called “critical control” is most difficult – where considering the past does not overemphasize the grievances, needs, and expectations of one side too much, creating a kind of presentism which indoctrinates
students for how to deal with the future.
It is this constant, political difficulty – which is almost always present – which must be surmounted, not the danger of the teacher sometime volunteering their own specific opinions about some particular matter.
Here are some sample pages from the textbook in question.
http://www.colourpoint.co.uk/pdfs/TroubledImagesColourpoint.pdf
In fairness Trow, Irish history teaching has been a major problem for generations. I was educated in a prod school in the 70s and I left school with a good knowledge of NI as an entity — Carson, Craig etc. I couldn’t however name a single one of the 26 counties and was completely unaware of the nationalist position. I suspect a mirror image applied to RC kids at the time (we had one RC kid in our form of 150 — he was referred to as ‘M60′.)
The blindingly obvious lesson from this experience is that seperate schooling breeds division, no matter how much the curriculum is doctored.
Faith / one denomination schools may in some cases produce better academic results but they also produce an assembly line of ill-informed little bigots.
Isn’t creationism taught in Free P. Schools? If teachers are to be prohibited from taking their politics into the classroom, then so too should they be restricted from taking their religious claptrap into the same classrooms.
Good point OC — Roman Catholic schools should be done away with immediately.
OC: Isn’t creationism taught in Free P. Schools? If teachers are to be prohibited from taking their politics into the classroom, then so too should they be restricted from taking their religious claptrap into the same classrooms.
The difference is that the state isn’t paying for the Free P schools. Do you have a clear personal position on how much Denominational Religious Instruction there should be in state funded education, and how much multi-denomination and multi-faith Religious Education? Or would you want ‘themmuns’ and ‘usuns’ written into the rules?
“Good point OC—Roman Catholic schools should be done away with immediately. ”
not forgetting Brian Feeney’s sectarian niche in the University system.
Cruimh – could you explain that comment?
I think Cruimh is refering to St Mary’s.
St Mary’s College on The Falls Road – part of QUB if you please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_University_College_(Belfast)
Thanks.
Yes, imagine having Roman Catholic teachers trained alongside … Protestants! Never! Never! Never!
What’s the Feeney connection?
It’s how our Brian takes his half crown Willowfield. He teaches there, God help us all.
apple crumble is a conspiracy nut the same way trow is he just accomplishes disseminating his weird ideas with a lot fewer worods
Now serious mad does dave know you are roaming the streets off your leash? Don’t make me call the ISPCA on you
“For the past 12 years, the British government has funded the Community Relations Council (CRC), which seeks to foster respect between the Protestant and Catholic traditions through financial support for cross-community projects.
Some critics say, however, that different tactics are needed. Brian Feeney, a lecturer in education at St. Mary’s College, Belfast, and author of the book “Sinn Fein – a Hundred Turbulent Years,” urges a tougher approach, in which “sectarian words and acts should be outlawed here in the same way that incitement to racial hatred is outlawed in Britain.” ”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0904/p07s01-woeu.html
One could argue that keeping St Mary’s separate from Stranmillis is a “sectarian act”.
he undefeated IRA…;-)
Posted by Bob From Boston
sorry brian, remind us who surrendered their weapons? The IRA. Who stood down their men? The IRA. Whose leaders now support the British state and its police force? The IRA.
Whose leaders are now administering British rule? The IRA.
Whose troops are still armed and based in NI? The British. Which police force is made is made of RUC officers and are still armed? The PSNI
Now now Observer, Bob ain’t from around these parts — he can’t be expected to be across all the facts.
‘Yep Bob, that’s why they jacked it in without acheiving a single objective. Maybe they just got tired eh?’
The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….
Btw, closing Catholic schools over here would be the end of literacy as we know it.
BfB
All children in Northern Ireland should be taught how religion is always the ally of tribalism and bigotry and how it enables violence and irrationality – the real lesson of The Troubles.
‘The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….’
Presumably about 3000 miles away Bob.
Just to update you, SF signed up to the principle of consent — that’s partition continuing until a majority vote to end it. On current demographic trends, that’s unlikely to be in the lifetime of anyone reading this board. If it does happen, it certainly won’t be because of the IRA or SF, indeed if anything they’ll have delayed it.
Other objectives included a 32 county socialist republic with the IRA as the rightful govt of Ireland. As of a few weeks ago, 6.9% of the ROI electorate agreed with that one.
So far so disastrous from where I’m standing.
“a 32 county socialist republic ”
That was downgraded to aspiration according to this :
“It is though when Fr Reid turned to the principles that would guide Sinn Féin in any dialogue that it became evident what huge compromises Gerry Adams was prepared to make.
Fr Reid wrote: “These principles as I understand them may be set out as follows: ”
and
“The aim of ‘the armed struggle’ is to establish the right of all the Irish people to decide their own political future through dialogue among themselves. The establishment of a 32 county socialist republic is not therefore the aim of this struggle.”
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_times/arts2007/jul5_Haughey_letter__EMoloney.php
“The aim of ‘the armed struggle’ is to establish the right of all the
Irish people to decide their own political future through dialogue among
themselves. The establishment of a 32 county socialist republic is not
therefore the aim of this struggle.”
Second…………..
Pretty ironic stuff Cruimh — the only non-derisory electoral interest in SF is in that part of Ireland designated as a quarter of the UK.
Therefore if SF ever get their wish of a UI, they’ll be instantly redundant.
In fact if their sole aim is a UI and nothing else, and their sole means of achieving it is through consent, their only possible use is in attempting to persaude Unionism of the benefits of a UI. Thus far they’ve succeeding in doing the precise opposite.
All I can say is that this continuing slanging match about who won the war of The Troubles, where it is now, and what will develop in future, etc., is just another example of how difficult it is to teach a proper, fair history of its possibilities are.
I am just glad I am out of the process.
realist
[i]No doubt Sammy would love to explain to all how the country came to be divided against the will of the people, you know the 89% who voted for Home Rule and what it was exactly that gave the other 11% the Democratic right to form, at the barrell of a gun, a sectarian based 6 county state.[/i]
I think you’ll find that the guns which determined partition were those of Michael Collins and the IRA, not the UVF – who weren’t involved in the War of Independence.
On another point, if you happen to believe that the state of Northern Ireland was set up solely down to the whims of the Unionist majority then you are a fool. The UVF threatened violence but never carried out a campaign; the IRA on the other hand a few miles down the road were involved in running battles with the British army. In short, the Brits weren’t too concerned about violence erupting in the event of them pulling out of of Ireland altogether as they’d been quite happy fueling it whilst they were there.
The notion that they’d reneged on giving up the northern 6 counties along with the Free State is frankly laughable but none-the-less is a lie that seems to continue to receive some sort of credibility associated with it. Home Rule, for instance wasn’t shelved because Unionists had objections to it – the statute had already passed through Parliament, it was the British government at the time who had stalled on enacting the leglisation after the First World War ended – nothing to do with Unionists.
The real reasons they wanted to retain NI were 2-fold. The Ulster Unionists took the whip of the ruling Conservative coalition at the time, the Tories weren’t going to be too keen on losing 20-odd MPs and thus relinquishing the balance of power. Also in light of the First World War, Europe was still on edge and as such it would have been advantageous for the Brits to keep some of their crucial ports and the largest shipyard at their disposal at the time in Belfast. In essence the rest of Ireland was dispensable as far as the Brits were concerned at the time or else they never have agreed for it become the Free State. The retention of NI turned out to be a good move for Britain in WWII as Derry was used as their main port during the Battle of the Atlantic and the H&W shipyard was used to great effect in the war effort.
The UK kept NI because it was convenient to them, nothing more – nothing less, and now when we’ve become nothing more than a drain on their resources we’re surplus to requirements.
Bob from Boston
[i]The undefeated IRA…;-)[/i]
I know that this is the myth that’s been fed to you by Gerry and pals to make your failed investment in NORAID over the years seem a little more palatable but maybe you should wake up. It’s ironic how you and your ilk saw nothing wrong with part-sponsoring the slaughter of thousands of innocents in Northern Ireland over the past 40 years and yet now lead a global crusade against terrorism with utmost zeal but without displaying even so much as an ounce of cheek nor degree of shame being displayed.
Trow, I wonder if it would be worth asking those of ‘strong opinions’ to provide a balanced analysis of a few sacred cows. For example:
1. Was Cromwell’s sack of Drogheda a piece of vindicive anti-irishness or simply the standard reaction that any typical 17th century army had when taking a city which had refused to surrender without a fight?
2. Was the abandonment of Home Rule the result of a glorious blood sacrifice on the fields of the Somme or primarily because Lloyd George’s coalition government had become dominated by Conservatives who were opposed in principle to home rule?
3. Were the bulk of forces who put down the 1798 rebellion/rising (a) Irish or (b) English?
4. Was pre-norman Ireland a united peaceful land of saints and scholars or a technologically backward clannish poverty riven backwater?
5. John Laird….Why????
Please feel free to discuss
Chris Donnelly
What’s with the use of the word ‘Taig’ in the title of the thread?
It’s pathetic and aligns you, in terms of intellect, with the likes of 50 Cent etc, who feel that just because they’re black it’s somehow cool to use the N-word as a means by which they should express themselves. Never mind the fact that the N-word in itself is a manifestation of the systematic subjugation and oppression of 50 Cent’s forebearers – it seems that he and others feel that it’s OK to use such a loaded word in a flippant manner to call one another, without considering the previous historical connotations of the word.
The use of ‘taig’ is also offensive. You’re effectively linking Sammy Wilson with the use of the word, as ipso-facto because he’s a Prod he will automatically use the word ‘Taig’ as part of his everyday vocabulary because that’s just what us evil Prods do. Man, I just can’t get through the day without hating some Catholics. Now, if you excuse me it’s the Saturday before the 12th, so tonight I’ll don my sash and march down the street with my pitch fork to see what ‘Taig’ I can burn out because I’m a ‘Hun’ and that’s what we do don’t you know?
I believe that your questions, Sunningdale, are a good sample of what a teacher of The Troubles might be questioned about, though, I believe that the only one – about WWI, and the failure of Home Rule – should have any bearing on the current situation, and then only just slightly.
As you may know, I wrote a biography of Oxford Vinerian Professor of Law, and the most committed Unionist, A. V. Dicey, claiming that he was instrumental in the defeat of any Home Rule: first claiming most falsely that Charles Stewart Parnell was a member of Clan na Gael, and a supporter of the Invincibles; then much later organizing a possible civil war just before WWI if Home Rule received the Royal Assent; and then using the belated Easter Uprising as an excuse against making any accommodation of Irish demands for self-governance.
The guy, IMHO, was the biggest source of The Troubles, and if I were teaching a course about it, I would expend more time than other teachers, I am sure, dealing with this crazy double-dealer in the media and behind the scenes.
It just illustrates the almost unending problems of teaching such a course properly.
But thanks for asking.
Diluted Orange..
You and your ilk have no real idea of the way we Irish Americans support our interests back home. As for being crusaders, you bet your cowardly Yurpeen ass I support killing every last one of those who have it in their head to kill me… You are a condescending, grammatically correct, asshole, nothing more, nothing less. Noraid? they went out with the pyramids….yeesh Take a trip out of the neighborhood every once in a while…
BFB – Hw do you feel about SF support from and for anti-american groups?
Bob from Boston, aka OFD, you are a disgrace by any standard, and should simply get lost.
And if you had ever been in my classroom, I am sure that I would have had to call the campus police to reject you before it was all over.
Diluted Orange,
The use of ‘taig’ is also offensive. You’re effectively linking Sammy Wilson with the use of the word, as ipso-facto because he’s a Prod he will automatically use the word ‘Taig’ as part of his everyday vocabulary because that’s just what us evil Prods do.
Didn’t Sammy Wilson say that “Taigs aren’t ratepayers”.
“Taigs don’t pay rates.” Sammy Wilson as quoted in Irish Times 12 January 2000 (though actual remark made many years before.)
George
Afraid Diluted Orange missed that one.
Have to get up earlier from now on, DO.
Boston is a place where credulous idiots in the slums of South Boston used to buy commemorative AK-47s supposedly employed by the IRA to kill British soldiers, in the same way that the Medieval Church used to hawk dubious relics (Fingers of Jesus anyone? I have eleven right here!)
Let’s hear Bob defend Americans’ assistance of the last unreconstructed Communist terrorists in Western Europe – never mind their support for other anti-American groups – while no doubt fulminating against terrorism, Socialism and goddamn-pinko lefty commies at home. He probably complains about multiculturalism while making a big deal about being an “Irish-American” too.
Bob from Boston:
’The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….’
Bob, when are the Europeans, Chinese and Asians going to get out of the land mass presently occupied by the USA, which was taken by force by your forebears following the extermination of the people who lived there ?
Diluted Orange:
The UVF threatened violence but never carried out a campaign;
Why do unionists always argue that it’s not wrong to point 10,000 guns at someone, so long as you don’t pull the trigger ? Don’t try to pretend that the UVF and the direct threat of violence embodied in the Covenant had no role in partition.
Unionists must accept that they supported, encouraged and promoted the use of violence. They turned a blind eye to the terrorism that emanated from the communities they drew support from. This weird idea that just because they intimidated people enough to get them to back down before they had to pull the trigger makes them peace-loving democrats needs to be put to bed, quickly.
I say let teachers teach the Troubles anyway they want but by law each student should have to copy out the name and age of each of the 3523 people who died. That should get the most important message through.
Also isn’t it nice to see Sammy with some clothes on…
‘Bob, when are the Europeans, Chinese and Asians going to get out of the
land mass presently occupied by the USA, which was taken by force by your
forebears following the extermination of the people who lived there ?’
Errr, my parents moved here from Louisburgh when I was two, so I guess I’ll happily miss your point.