A 15 year old boy was left seriously injured following a sectarian attack in which his skull was broken and his attackers tied a wire around his neck and dragged him along the road. The attack, on the interface at Clifton Park Avenue, led to a protest in the area last night.
Which reminds me…. Platform for Change’s driving force Robin Wilson has produced a corrective to the notion that the lessons of the NI conflict are easily exportable. Like myself, Robin is associated with the Constitution Unit. He introduced his new book in a CU blog which I here reproduce. The water crisis in Northern Ireland [...] read our review »
I suppose that I shouldn’t be surprised any more that an appeal for a little introspection and thought rather than the usual slanging was (after a small blip of rationality) overrun in the usual NI fashion by a battalion fueled by a self-satisfied moralistic sense of community superiority and armed with an ‘its all your sides’ fault’attitude.
Still, at least according to Matt I can spend the evening deciding which 10% of my protestant relatives aren’t sectarian and which 10% of my catholic relatives are…..
I dispair.
matt
believe nothing what you hear and only half what you see.
Dewi,
Snakebrain has pretty much answered your point better than I could have done. I enjoy taking part in various pretty harmless cultural things at this time of year. I do not have any desire to offend anyone except possibly musical purists by my limited musical ability.
It really offends me that some anti social people form my “own side” at times make me embarrassed to be involved in my own culture. Of course my embarassment and distress is of no consequence besides the distress that poor young man and his family must be suffering.
On a slightly more general note I wish more Prods would get involved in their culture especially in Belfast to help dilute out and maybe stop the more unpleasant things which happen. This thread is not the time or the place to discuss this in detail but I will suggest that the demonisation of unionist culture because of the utterly wicked actions of some of its practioners is not especially helpful in such a desire / aim.
I cannot comment much on North Belfast other than to say it is very sad that to my mind by far the prettiest part of the town has its name unfairly dragged through the mud by the actions of a minority of its inhabitants.
In all the debate lets not forget the young lad who was viciously beaten and lets remember him and his family.
The latest news is more hopeful with the hospital saying he is making progress and I hope this continues until he is fully recovered.
Snakebrain – I’m ceratin it’s not typical or representative – apologise 4 using word “inflammatory” didn’t think.
The attackers last night I’m sure were not representative or typical either and none of the Unionist posters on here are “baby eating maniacs”.
My point was that for society to allow such flags to be placed on bonfires is entirely intolerable and encourages such sectarian acts.
confused
thats the main and most important post this topic will have. Maybe others will catch on?
Sunningdale
Just because facts are unpleasant doesn’t make them untrue.
I don’t necessarily agree with everything that Matt says or the way he says it.
However, during the “marching season” about 3 years ago, the late David Ervine was on Channel 4 news with someone from the SDLP debating such attacks.
He kept using that great “loyalist” propaganga phrase ‘tit-fot-tat’. Unfortunately for him, Channel 4 had done their homework and had all the official statistics from the Police, Hospitals, Housing Executive etc.
They clearly showed that, over a 5 year period, the ratio of attacks on Catholics to Protestants was more than 9 to 1.
Ervine had to concede that it was hardly “tit for tat”.
I condemn all these attacks from whatever source and I sincerely believe that the vast majority of decent Protestants do do also.
However, the first step is solving any problem is the acquisition of accurate information.
It is a statistical FACT that a much greater percentage of these attacks eminate from the “loyalist’ community.
Stop it now please folks.
It doesn’t matter what the percentages are.
One such attack is one too many.
The fact of the matter is that a 15 year old boy was attacked by grown men. Thats fucked up and no amount of whataboutery can change that. Think really hard about that wee fact before you make excuses for scum.
To get away from the whataboutery lets examine a few facts of the case. Here we have a 15 year old boy running about the streets at 11 o’clock at night, at an alleyway in an interface area whether the child in question be protestant, catholic, muslim, black, jewish whatever. The question that never seems to be asked where is the parental responsability here its the usual everybodys at fault PSNI,CCTV,Government for petes sake your child running about a notorious troublesome area half mile from his home at 11pm is there not an inkling that there may be issues closer to home.
[i]It is a statistical FACT that a much greater percentage of these attacks eminate from the “loyalist’ community.[/i]
This may well be the case, which whether it is or not, something needs to be done about it – on both sides. Something which you acknowledge is that there are attacks stemming from the Nationalist side too; finger-waving at loyalists isn’t going to relieve the decades of entrenched bitterness. This needs to be a 2 way process.
Sinn Fein, for all their faults, are a working class party – they are organised on the ground and far better equipped to deal with community relations than the other main parties. In comparison, there is a distinct lack of local political leadership in working class Protestant communities; the DUP and the UUP have neglected their base support for more years than one cares to remember by pushing more and more for the middle class vote. Ian Paisley etc cannot stand up and proclaim anti-Catholic sentiments and ‘Never, Never, Never’ rhetoric as they have done in the past and then wash their hands of the inevitable ‘Billy Boy’ reaction amongst some impressionable loyalists. This kind of behaviour (i.e. whacking a child with a golf club) is not organic – throughout his chequered past Paisley has at times directly stirred up discontent in loyalist quarters so that he could reap the political capital. Some sort of ownership from the DUP needs to be taken for situations like those that regularly occur along the North Belfast interface.
IMO the actions of the main Unionist parties are in direct contrast to Alex Kane’s assertion (in another thread) that Unionists need to go vote grabbing in the garden centres, so to speak, as I believe that this is pretty much all that they ever do. Where is Nigel Dodds in all of this? Should he not, as the local MP, be facilitating some sort of cross-community contact and reconciliation in his constituency?
As I pointed out in my previous post, my view pretty much agrees with Sunningdale’s. I’m not from North Belfast but its fairly obvious that the situation there is beyond the joke and it’ll get worse over the coming week. It is currently home to some of the most vile sectarianism and stark division apparent anywhere in NI. Some sort of intervention from MLAs or the MP for the constituency is much needed and on Gerry Kelly’s part that shouldn’t be code for standing in front of the Ardoyne Shops side by side with the Shankill bomber next weekend.
Instead of banning this or banning that as some contributors have urged I had thought that perhaps it might be a good idea if it was actually made illegal to launch vicious murderous assaults on innocent Catholic citizens. It has since been pointed out to me that this (seemingly popular) practice is already illegal.
Shouldn’t someone tell the police?
i have restrained myself from commenting and its been difficult but 60 comments down the line…the tempers been lost.
Udlah …Why not come out and say he had it coming to him ?????
you odious person…sick sad and confused. Grown men beat child with golf clubs and its the childs fault !!! FFS you need your head seeing to !!!
[b]#
To get away from the whataboutery lets examine a few facts of the case. Here we have a 15 year old boy running about the streets at 11 o’clock at night, at an alleyway in an interface area whether the child in question be protestant, catholic, muslim, black, jewish whatever. The question that never seems to be asked where is the parental responsability here its the usual everybodys at fault PSNI,CCTV,Government for petes sake your child running about a notorious troublesome area half mile from his home at 11pm is there not an inkling that there may be issues closer to home.
Posted by Udlah on Jul 03, 2007 @ 10:14 PM
[/b]
For a start it’s the summer holidays. Many teenagers are out and about at that time of night. You seem to be making assumptions that he was up to no good. Do you have evidence to back this up? Or are you just trying to creat a smoke screen? The fact of the matter is a young teenager was attacked by several adults with golf clubs, under no circumstance is that acceptable.
It would strike me that what a lot of people are missing is the disgusting assault on a child.
I hold very strong opinions about the situation in the north of ireland, but they pale into insignificance when held up to such horror.
Whoever would do this to a child, (from whatever background) should be caught, tried and if found guilty, hung!
Give us all something to unite around!
No doubt these human offal are the same people that were abusing and threatening primary school children in the same area a few short years ago.
Some of the posters on this thread have implied, by making unsubstantiated claims, that this attack was a result of nationalist attacks on houses in Manor St – that’s absolute bollocks. Prove me wrong and reveal your sources.
The oft repeated ‘tit-for-tat’ scenario, and its inferred justification is simply not the case in north Belfast, I live in the area. No, the driving force behind such attacks is the same mindset behind the deaths of Daniel McColgan, Gerard Lawlor, Thomas Devlin, Gavin Brett, David Cupples and the attempted murder of Joe Murphy. Absolute sheer naked sectarianism.
As far as I can remember July has been a month of caution and fear for any Catholic I know living in north Belfast. Having said that, I have worked with decent, considerate, tolerant people who were members of both the OO and the Black Perceptory. These people wanted to do nothing more than to walk through town on what they seen as their day out and head back to where they lived for a few jars, not wanting to trouble any of their fellow citizens on the way.
One curious thing about the people that I mention though – they were very much in the minority of unionist people that I worked with in the sense that they didn’t go to bonfires.
So, perhaps rather than banning all marches as some have suggested here, the culture of sectarianism could be traced to bonfires?. Maybe it’s the bonfires(along with the now ‘traditional’ loyalist firing party alongside the more convential under age drinking, chronic alcohol abuse, wanton violence, casual sex etc)that need to be looked at in order to eradicate sectarianism?.
Dewi
No worries, it’s just my girlfriend’s “one of them” and I have to watch my step, y’know?
Seriously, my heart goes out to this kid and his family. As I said, I’ve seen the consequences of an attack like this and it’s not bloody nice. There’s nothing that can be said that could possibly justify this happening. I state this clearly because I’ve spent so much time debating the broader issues, and I don’t want to anyone to think I’ve lost sight of the central issue.
However, I do think it’s important that we don’t have a knee-jerk reaction that ends up further damaging and dividing our society because of a few monsters that roam the streets. There’s also an issue with the police not making proper efforts to find and prosecute those who commit these crimes. There’s a further issue with management of the marching season by those who run it. Are we going to let these things destroy the possibility of a decent future?
Udlah
You must be crazy if you’re even suggesting this boy, or his family were in any way responsible for this attack. The only people who were responsible for this were those who perpetrated it.
Holy f*ck. He was out at 11pm???? Well that changes everything! That calls for getting his head caved in by savages with golf clubs! Then dragged down a road by a bit of wire round the neck!! Aye and he was a wee fenian too. Had it coming he did.
Udlah, so f*cking what that he was out raking at near midnight, i did the same once upon a time but got grounded for it by my da – sectarian assault & brain damage is a tad extreme there eh…? No justification – no excuse.
The only thing missing were the white gowns and burning cross!!
Anyone trying to even explain or justify why this would happen are the reason why it happens!!
“They’re just good ol’ boys”
This thread should be preserved for future generations to see. Maybe in fifty years from now the story of a young boy being beaten and tortured by a group of grown men will provoke nothing but the outrage that it should. I feel genuinely depressed after reading this thread.
I’ve nothing more to say on this except that I hope young Niall makes a fully and speedy recovery. God bless.
[i]To get away from the whataboutery lets examine a few facts of the case. Here we have a 15 year old boy running about the streets at 11 o’clock at night, at an alleyway in an interface area whether the child in question be protestant, catholic, muslim, black, jewish whatever. The question that never seems to be asked where is the parental responsability here its the usual everybodys at fault PSNI,CCTV,Government for petes sake your child running about a notorious troublesome area half mile from his home at 11pm is there not an inkling that there may be issues closer to home.[/i]
Scraped better than you off my shoes.
udlah
I would call you scum, but that would be an insult to scum everywhere
if i took a golf club to the head everytime i was out after eleven my head would have dimples
These are the scum of the earth and it will speak volumes of the unionist community if they protect them
the balls in your court unionists, can you put your money where your mouth is
To those who expressed their undiluted disgust with the brutes who subjected this small boy to their merciless bloodlust, thank you for restoring my faith that the years of senseless sectarian violence has not completely removed people from the values we share.
To those who equivocated in their remarks, citing the hour the lad was out, how the actions of others somehow provoked this despicable act, I will pray that you search for something better inside yourself and conclude that it didn’t make a damn bit of difference what others did or how late it was.
It is just plain wrong for grown men to beat a youngster with golf clubs and drag him about by a piece of wire around his neck. Full stop.
Anyone who knows anything about these scum and doesn’t go to the peelers with that information is scum.
confused: “For a start he did not justify this criminal act but simply tried to offer a reason why it took place and went on to say it was not right. ”
As if there was a reason for for grown men to go gang-handed against a boy.
DO: “What has the OO got to do with any of this?”
They are “the reason for the season,” if you will. They provide the on-going excuse this time of year for Loyalist “kick the pope” bands to play their “party tunes,” whilst their fellow-travellers get potted and look for a child to beat upon.
in the name of christ how can you drag down a road a wee chap with wire around his neck after breaking his skull with a golf club, what the world is coming to?
sectarian attaks sectarian state!
I heartily agree, francesco, though I hardly think it would have been better treating any living soul in this fashion.
My biggest complaints about those posts which stop short of this is that they engage in a kind of unionist historicism – an uncritical acceptance of the world as it is, as if it has some kind of traditional legitimacy for which they bear no responsibility
These mindless killings, mostly of Catholics, have no legitimacy in any way, and everyone should not only denounce them, but to do everything they can to insure that they don’t happen again – especially see that their perpetrators are exposed, and prosecuted instead of just acting as if they are stark reminders of the past.
They are disgusting experience of the present which should be stopped at all costs rather than recalling what has happened to Catholics and Protestants alike, as long as one can remember.
It was this behavior which induced me to draw a line against too much effusive praise for Michael Brett’s reaction to his son’s senseless killing.
i’d like to know if those brave grown men who attacked this bloke only beacuse he was a catholic with the favour of the dark like thiefs have any kind of regrets or if they have been receiving cheers and handshakes from their own community
those involved in sectarian attaks are nothing but poor people with serious personal issues to face and should be put in prison for a long long time. They’re fucking useless for the future of ireland!
If these thugs really want to get into a fight, I know a few people who would be happy to oblige. Only thing is they aren’t children so it probably wouldn’t be any good…
I think the bottom line is not what religion or political colour these animals are, the bottom line is that they are cowards who are willing to beat children up with golf clubs. If this happened in a domestic case, or away from the atmosphere in the 6 counties, nobody would make excuses for this sick behaviour, and everyone would wholly condemn it. Let’s not politicise these actions. Although (a certain breed of) loyalists are usually the culprits of such attacks, don’t take the blame for this atrocity away from the individuals who carried it out. They are child beaters. To make them out to be anything else is giving them some kind of political arena which they don’t deserve.
My best wishes to the victim and his family. Beir bua.
Ahhh, the politics of condemnation! Its a pity a lot of nationalists weren’t as vocal over the past 25 years or so……..
Ahhh, the politics of condemnation! Its a pity a lot of nationalists weren’t as vocal over the past 25 years or so……..
they were indeed!
I’m absolutely horrified at the barbarity of the people who carried out the attack on this young lad. It is obvious that they didn’t care what damage they would cause to the boy or whether he lived or died. These people need to be caught and locked up for a long time without remission.
I find it sad that people are blaming the O.O. for this attack. I’m not a member of the order and certainly don’t speak for them but I’m sure the vast majority of members especially the christian members would also be disgusted by the actions of these sick people.
The problem with our so called christian country is that ( in my opinion)there are people who without knowing it worship satan. These people fall into this category along with people who carried out atrocities like Darkley, Sean Grahams bookies,Shankill bombing,Greysteel, Tee-bane, Bayardo,Bloody Sunday, Bloody Friday,Shankill Butcher killings ,Balmoral Showrooms, Robert McCartney murder. We need to unite and stand up to these people. Look at what has happen in West Belfast over the past year as satanists murder and petrol people out of their homes. All violence is wrong and shold be condemned without reservation. People should be imprisoned for a long time and when released if unrepentive should be shunned by all decent people and not treated as heroes.
No Dozer
“Devil is dead
Devil is dead
Some say the Devil is dead
And buried in Killarney.
I say he rose again
I say he rose again
I say he rose again
And joined the British Army.”
Any word on how the wee lad is doing?
No Maud this is unionist violence on a catholic so its already been dropped as a news story.
If had been the other way around we would here screaming from the collective roof tops of the news litter
Gerry and Hugh,
You bring up “The politics of condemnation”? What is that about? There is, in my view, absolutely no political content in either what these men did or in others condemning them.
I submit, moreover, that to treat an instance like this as a political issue is stupid. What does it matter what the politics of the boy or these so-called men are?
@snakebrain
“Personally, I wish the 12th didn’t mean the whole country closing down so that those who wish to can celebrate their festival. I think it’s damn unfair for people to be forced to take time off work out of their paid holidays when it might not suit them to.”
I think that’s a wee bit silly. It’s a bank holiday. Since we have n bank holidays a year it makes sense to have one on the 12th rather than some of the meaningless dates that other bank holidays fall.
@Dewi
“My point was that for society to allow such flags to be placed on bonfires is entirely intolerable and encourages such sectarian acts.”
As Mrs T once said there is no such thing as society. Saying it’s the responsibility of “society” to remove it is tantamount to saying that it’s no-ones responsibility. So if you want to be constructive then be specific.
Also, while not wishing to invoke the whataboutery genie I’m sure you’re well aware that I could either google up or just drive out with my digital camera and take snaps of numerous walls with K.A.H. graffitied on them.
Aye, sure it was completely unprovoked. Just like all those ‘poor wee lads’ hit by plastics were getting a pint of milk at four in the morning for their Ma’s – and not attempting to murder police officers.
peadiddy
Top be specific the PSNI should remove any such symbols. – and the “community” should help
And if there are walls with K.A.H on them report them and get rid of them.
aye right you are just scum
peadiddy
I’m not just talking about the 12th day. A lot of businesses close for the 12th fortnight, or at least a week. The building industry shuts down pretty much completely, amongst others. It’s fair enough to be a little riled if you have to use up holidays in that period that you’d rather use at a different time.
snakebrain
“I’m not just talking about the 12th day. A lot of businesses close for the 12th fortnight, or at least a week. The building industry shuts down pretty much completely, amongst others. It’s fair enough to be a little riled if you have to use up holidays in that period that you’d rather use at a different time.”
Now you’re being ridiculous. If a business closes for a week then that’s it’s choice, nobody is forcing it to do so. I find it hard to believe that you don’t have a sectarian agenda here.
Aye Right
IF you have anything specific to add some new factual detail to back up your assertion please provide it
persomally i find your remark disgusting
peadiddy
it’s not the biggest issue in the country, but it’s not the employees choice either. And don’t give me some line about they can choose where they work.
“And if there are walls with K.A.H on them report them and get rid of them” There are many friend (and worse) especially around Glengormley where I live – no IF about it. Sectarianism exists both ways – believe it – I find it difficult to believe you haven’t seen it yourself.
Perhaps as you quite rightly suggested about the the bonfires and loyalist flags – the community from which the budding graffiti artists spawn should take the offensive rubbish from their local shopfronts and gable walls – without the intervention of those to whom this sort of crap is aimed at having to do it themselves – only fair using your previous reasoning I think-and if everyone did the same we’d all be flying as it were.
Personally, I wish the 12th didn’t mean the whole country closing down so that those who wish to can celebrate their festival.
I think it’s great. It means I can be part of that great event of communal belonging, the Middle Class Taig exodus for the 12th and enjoy the best of British with friends in the South of England while avoiding the worst of British in North Belfast. Abolish that holiday? I’d rather take an extra day for it.
As for the scum who beat up the kid in Manor Street, why are they still walking the streets? Even if the cops couldn’t make charges stick at this stage, it would surely be worth taking them in for questioning to keep them off the streets until the twelfth is over and done with.
It’s incidents like this that almost make me regret that flogging was abolished.
Sammy maybe they will get lifted when they show at the police station to turn in the keys as per request