‘You’re not real unionists, you’re Ulster nationalists’, UUP tells DUP…
IN its continuing efforts to differentiate itself from the DUP, the UUP has accused Paisley’s party of being “Ulster nationalist” rather than “British unionist” – something we’ve explored on Slugger recently. Ulster Unionist Rodney McCune said: ” I see Ulster Unionists as the only Northern Ireland party continuing to use the language of British Unionism. That is set against the Irish nationalism and republicanism of the SDLP and Sinn Fein and what I see as the Ulster nationalism of the DUP. All three talk about British Labour ministers with a similar contemptuous intonation… They [the DUP], like the other nationalist and republican parties in Northern Ireland, attribute all problems to direct rule or attribute problems to British ministers. Yet as a party the DUP don’t contribute to important national debates such as the future of nuclear power or our national approach to rising crime and prison overcrowding. In my view they are not authentic unionists.” Or perhaps the DUP now recognises the reality that Northern Ireland, while still part of the UK, has its own particular needs and must find its own unique answers to deal with its situation?
Gonzo yes, there is a certain irony in the “Brits Out” subliminal messages coming out of the DUP.
A nationalist wet-dream too
What a load of crap.
A two second google will get a quote from the UUP MEP refering to the ‘British Government’
Here
or a ‘British minister’
here
What a bunch of idiotic amateurs.
In all fairness this is Rodney McCune’s opinion and there is nothing to indicate he is speaking for the UUP as a whole. While I don’t doubt there is a wing of the DUP that thinks in Ulster rather than British terms the whole party can be tarred with that brush, particularly with its attraction to former Ulster Unionists. Unless of course Mr McCune would have us believe two out of three Unionist voters are Ulster nationalists too.
There is also a tendancy within the UUP to blame all our woes on direct rule too, for example Reg Empey on the Politics Show last year complained about rule by ‘British Ministers’.
I meant ‘the whole party cannot’ rather than can. Apologies.
Frank:
“All three talk about British Labour ministers with a similar contemptuous intonation…”
Sometimes one has to refer to “British Ministers” or use some other adjective (I would tend to use ‘Direct Rule’ myself) to distinguish, for example, Westminster ministers from from NI Executive ministers. Sometimes it’s not but it gets said anyway. The point is that the DUP seem to be developing (or is this not a new trend?) the same snarl nationalists often have when referring to British *spit* ministers.
Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but this seems to have become more apparent since the DUP became the largest party and arguably stand to gain the most from devolution.
The trouble is that I have seen and heard just this attitude within the UUP over the years and that includes the wee few that are still in it and didn’t cut loose and join the DUP.
Beano,
Give me recent examples of the UUP commending ‘British ministers’ even at a lesser level than Paisley’s speech about Blair and I might buy this.
The UUP don’t commend anyone. They are just complaining about others complaining like they complain.
It’s pathetic.
Identity over Northern Ireland being a destinct region of the UK, distinct due to the large swathes of Irish nationalists, is acceptable and I believe is fair enough.
With this in mind the option would be to advocate a more federal republic approach to governance vis-a-vis UK; but, as for Ulster Nationalism, this itself is a fallacy both politically and geographically – it just doesn’t exist.
Rodney who?
This latest outing by the UUP has echos of the “Decent People Vote UUP” and such like. It was masterminded (if that is not a contradiction in terms) by Stephen King the so called unionist spin doctor / strategy wizard.
What ever happened to him? If there is anyone about whom to have British intelligence conspiracy theories surely it is him. Was he not an English bloke with no connection to NI who dropped out of history at Oxford and went to Queen’s. Was an open homosexual (surely Oxford is more welcoming of homosexuals and although QUB is my almer mata I think for an English person Oxford is higher status than QUB). Then he became policy advisor to Taylor then Trimble, masterminded utterly useless election strategies and then vanished.
Sorry I know I sound like Trowbridge at the moment but it is all a bit wierd. I could well be wrong on all of it, and am happy to be corrected.
Turgon
I think you are on to something. Doesn’t he also write creepy horror books?
Back to thread.
This seems to be part of an increasingly random attempt by the UUP to hit out at the DUP. What is their strategy; if any?
We all remember that they went into a deal before the DUP, made even more consessions than the DUP and are just angry that they are loosing ground. As someone who regards the DUP as having sold out, do they think I am going to start voting UUP forgetting all their selling out?
As to the DUP whinning about Direct Rule ministers, all parties (even Alliance) have done that for years. Whilst some in the unionist community complain about the Direct rule ministers I do not think that makes people less pro the union let alone more interested in a united Ireland which seems to be the unstated subtext to this UUP line.
This seems to be part of an increasingly random attempt by the UUP to hit out at the DUP. What is their strategy; if any?
Indeed.
If they want to just remain unionists they will always be at a disadvantage. David Trimble might have moved towards SF politically but the body language was always stand-offish and timid. The Doc has a deeper connection with the ordinary man and woman (I dare say on both sides). It can seem like nationalism but really it is just good politics.
Ronnie who?????? You may indeed ask.
This is the UUP trying to distant itself from the years it misruled this province, and yes, British Ministers i.e. Direct Rule Ministers have been maligned but by all the parties in Northern Ireland including the UUP for their part in the decline of Northern Ireland in all matters of Government. I think it is the silly season again for the UUP as they are no longer in the big picture and only making up the numbers. They are trying to regain territory from the DUP by making statements that should be really sending to themselves, do they really think that the voters of Northern Ireland will ever trust them again if they will not vote DUP next time around. “I say fool me once†you may “fool me twice†you might “fool me three times†never again so you will not get my vote. The British Ministers deserved all the criticism they received and I will be a cheerleader for that, but it does not make me want to be any less British.
Are any of our politicians really pro Northern Ireland? They all seem to be very pro themselves at the expense of the rest of us.
Sorry should have been Rodney who????????????
Here’s a thought…
In the last Assembly election, we saw quite a few previous UUP votes ‘return’ to Alliance. Arguably, those votes were ‘on loan’ previously, to see the UUP and Trimble get into a power sharing government at earlier times of crisis.
But once the ‘crisis’ was over, and the votes had done their work, they returned back to the more moderate party.
Could this happen to DUP votes? Will some go back to the more ‘moderate’ (and these days I use that term most cautiously to the UUP) party? Will this particular UUP argument work?
I’m not convinced that the UUP are on the right road yet, meself. But this is an interesting approach anyway…
The UUP, bless.
Rodney McCune; I remember him when he was a spotty teenager. Actually, he wasn’t spotty at all.
His father was a senior RUC officer if I recall rightly, and generally well respected. Rodney, I think, did a Law degree in London, then maybe a patch in NY, though I wouldn’t swear on that part. I also seem to remember him being involved in a tussle with a attempted mugger in London, or something like that, and speaking out very strongly afterwards. Google if you’re interested.
He’s not the worst sort at all; as a representative of Unionism I’d say he’d be erudite and reasonable enough. Though I only vaguely knew him when I was a very spotty teenager…
Something in what you say Gonzo..
I predict in the mid to long term a general shift away from the current polarised situation. Not rocket science. Whether that shift takes the form of the current parties moving their positions, or the votes shifting inwards to the currently more central parties will very much depend on the footwork of all involved.
This might not be a bad pawn to e4 move for the UUP.
It appears to me that the UUP have no choice but to find something to differentiate themselves from the DUP that most Unionists believe in.
Is this it? That they are more British than the DUP?
I’m always wrong predicting these things, but stranger things have happened.
Kevster
Don’t think yer too far wrong; there’s always been a fault-line between Ulster nationalism and British unionism. But the lack of a militant republicanism has opened what was previously closed.
I suppose the question becomes, how large are the proportions of “Ulster Nationalists” and “British Unionists” in the overall Unionist voting public.
One thing I’ve been watching for is what is going to replace the old boogeyman in Ulster politics. All the gas previously expelled in condemnation of Dublin and Republicans is going to have to be vented somewhere, isn’t it?
‘ how large are the proportions of “Ulster Nationalists†and “British Unionists†in the overall Unionist voting public.’
Belfast Gonzo, does it matter what DUP’ers or UUP’ers call themselves? They both stand steadfast together against the shinners ‘pipe dream’ of a UI before 2016.
[i]‘And the DUP has claimed hopes of a united Ireland are “a pipe dream” after a new study revealed that only 56 per cent of Catholics actually favour Irish unity.
“There is little surprise that confidence in the maintenance of the Union is so high. A BBC Attitude Survey also showed that since the DUP assumed the pole position within unionism the percentage of unionists believing that Northern Ireland would be in the United Kingdom by 2020 rose from below two-thirds to 82 per cent.”
Ulster Unionist MLA Tom Elliott welcomed the findings of the Life and Times survey which he said, “truly illustrate that there is no appetite from the electors north or south of the border for a united Ireland”.[/i]
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news?articleid=2992860
Torgon tells us that Stephen King was “an open homosexual”. What he doesn’t tell us is whether or not, in his opinion, this is more or less shameful than being a closet homosexual. But I suppose a textual analysis of his piece really gives us all the clues we need as to Torgon’s feelings on the matter. It would tend to portray him as a closet homophobic.
Would my reading be correct?
Would my reading be correct?
No Rory, Torgon is correct, Steven King was very OPEN about his homosexuality the whole time he was David Trimble’s advisor.
It was the former UDA Leader John McMichael who was most open about the potential future in what he saw as an Independant Ulster. Even at that stage, one sensed that there was a potential fault-line within Unionism. The violent situation however, has kept these differences under wraps for many years – until now.
I have always sensed that there was a body of ‘Unionist’ opinion which did not necessarily regard full integration with Britain as a finite link. Perhaps within the core body of liberal Protestant opinion, lies some glimmer of hope for those Nationalists who are seeking to ‘persuade’ for some form of Irish Unity in the years ahead.
Ulster nationalism is hardly a new notion. What makes it sensible as an underlying belief is that the UK is becoming a something of a mutually beneficial association under devolution rather than a singular state. The UU position on this is, as usual, written for a past political situation that has already gone.
The old Molyneaux analysis that direct rule from London was the best safeguard for the Union had an element of truth, however it also left our infrastructure subject to chronic underinvestment and a leaderless, rudderless civil service to struggling try to make the best of a bad job of running this place.
btw I can’t see how Stephen King’s sexuality has anything to do with this post
“I have always sensed that there was a body of ‘Unionist’ opinion which did not necessarily regard full integration with Britain as a finite link. Perhaps within the core body of liberal Protestant opinion, lies some glimmer of hope for those Nationalists who are seeking to ‘persuade’ for some form of Irish Unity in the years ahead.”
I think you’ll find that it is liberal Protestant opinion that is most in favour of intergration. Many of those who believe in devolution don’t trust Westminster and see it as giving them more control over their destiny. As for Ulster independance most Unionists see it as an option only in a doomsday situation when the alternative is a united Ireland.
BTW how are you going to convince Unionists like me? By sending Martina Anderson to wax lyrical about how she admires those who spent 35 years slaughtering members of my community? You may find that one of the reasons people are Unionists is to stick up two fingers to the scum who tried to deny us the right to chose which state we lived in.
The UUP seem determined to learn absolutely nothing. One faction continues to hit the DUP for “selling out” by doing a deal with Sinn Fein: another section now claims that the DUP isn’t unionist enough anyway: and the Union Group argues in favour of engaging with Sinn Fein to reach some sort of consensus on an all-Ireland unionism.
They have collectively lost the plot.
Porlock
Perhaps within the core body of liberal Protestant opinion, lies some glimmer of hope for those Nationalists who are seeking to ‘persuade’ for some form of Irish Unity in the years ahead.
Liberal of all denominations and none would see Westminster (rather than Paisley and the rest of the Prodiban) as the main guarantee of the social and cultural freedoms that they are entitled to expect in a modern western democracy.
“Ulster nationalism is hardly a new notion. What makes it sensible as an underlying belief is that the UK is becoming a something of a mutually beneficial association under devolution rather than a singular state. The UU position on this is, as usual, written for a past political situation that has already gone.”
This is the Blair/Brown political masterstroke. The Tories will never again dominate the United Kingdom as they did under Thatcher. The Tories may eventually simply become the English National party.
Rory,
No my post was pointing out that Stephen King appeared in Northern Ireland despite having no obvious reason to come here and several good reasons to feel happier staying in England at a university of higher status (for him) and one where homophobia is likely to be less common. The only thing I have against him is that he helped wreck the UUP which I was a member of.
On the substatnive point could I suggest complaining about direct rule ministers is extremely common by everyone. Is it not in part the less politically and geographically remote areas complaining about “them lot in the centre”. You see this here. People outside Belfast often complain that those in Belfast have better roads, hospitals etc. Those in the Presbyterian Church in the country complain that it is too Belfast- centric. People in the north of England complain that London gets more. Dewi can correct me but I believe that people in North and West Wales complain about Cardiff. I suspect this sort of thing is extremely common and not that indicative of some split within unionism.
Even if it is I adhere strongly to the view that none of the groups mentioned have any interest in a United Ireland, and those in favour of an Independent Ulster are really talking about a Doomsday secenario so I do not think the nationalists should dtart celebrating our imminent conversion to their views.
By the way I am still waiting for someone to tell me what happened to King. I hope he got a good job because although I think he helped wreck the UUP I would not want to think he is unemployed, I am sure he had talent; just not as a unionist strategist.
Turgon, from what I understand Stephen King got a job as a researcher for the Conservative party.
Paisley displaced the anglophile ‘toffs’ of the old UUP, making it less likely that the English would identify with unionism enough to see off the IRA.
The setting up of the Scottish and Welsh administrations meant that Paisley Powell Molyneaux could no longer pretend that integration was on the cards, and also showed the IRA that the brits were disinterested oppressors.
Call it Ulster nationalism, call it the end of political hyperinflation. 3000 dead is a big price to pay for anyone’s impossible dream.
Richard,
When referring to “liberal Protestant opinion”, I was particularly referencing those sections of that community best represented within areas like North Down. ie financially secure middle-classes whose voting record is virtually non-existent. I believe that these sections are much-more prone to be swayed by economic arguments for any future All-Ireland scenario. ie many of them have no political affinity whatsoever with either of the main Unionist Parties, nor indeed the Alliance Party for that matter.
As for your current political idealogy revolving around “sticking two fingers up to the scum”, I actually feel really sorry for you. It must be a sad life to have such a degree of hatred flowing through you…
“Paisley displaced the anglophile ‘toffs’ of the old UUP, making it less likely that the English would identify with unionism enough to see off the IRA.”
I think you’ll find the big house Unionists were seen off in the early 1970s.
“The setting up of the Scottish and Welsh administrations meant that Paisley Powell Molyneaux could no longer pretend that integration was on the cards, and also showed the IRA that the brits were disinterested oppressors.”
Paisley isn’t an intergrationist, Powell was dead by the time the Welsh and Scottish devolved governments were set up and Molyneaux had stopped having an active role in politics.
“Call it Ulster nationalism, call it the end of political hyperinflation. 3000 dead is a big price to pay for anyone’s impossible dream.”
Hear, hear, one of the most damning inditements of Irish Republicanism I have come across.
“When referring to “liberal Protestant opinionâ€, I was particularly referencing those sections of that community best represented within areas like North Down. ie financially secure middle-classes whose voting record is virtually non-existent. I believe that these sections are much-more prone to be swayed by economic arguments for any future All-Ireland scenario. ie many of them have no political affinity whatsoever with either of the main Unionist Parties, nor indeed the Alliance Party for that matter.”
Plenty of middle class Protestants in North Down vote Unionist. They voted for Bob McCartney’s vision of full intergration and when he was seen as a man of the right elected Sylvia Hermon. And if you are looking for a place that most resembles Finchley, look no further than Bangor.
Many of them served in the RUC or had relatives that did so. They may not like that awfully vulgar Ian Paisley but don’t imagine for a second they have anytime for apologists for the IRAs squalid murder campaign.
Although I find it a tad ironic that our revolutionary champions of the working class are going to go grovelling to the petite bourgeoisise.
“As for your current political idealogy revolving around “sticking two fingers up to the scumâ€, I actually feel really sorry for you. It must be a sad life to have such a degree of hatred flowing through you…”
Oh my political ideology doesn’t revolve around Republicans, don’t imagine I think so highly of them. The deaths of the hunger strikers, all those years wasted in prison by IRA members having been in vain is just a bonus.
And I can assure you my life is quite a happy one, I get this nice warm feeling whenever I hear a Shinner whinge about occupation, the killing of IRA terrorists etc
)
Richard,
Unfortunately your response has only served to verify my initial point.
As for your pathological hatred of Sinn Fein, how you must have squirmed when thay polled over 26% of the vote in the recent Assembly Elections. (Their biggest vote here since the partition of Ireland in 1921).
How you must have squirmed still further when Dr Paisley (the erstwhile Dr. No) entered into a fully co-operational and cordial Government with Sinn Fein. Not too mention his new ‘sugar-sweet’ relationship with The Taoiseach and Dail Eireann.
It would be interesting to know who would now be your ‘champions’ within political Unionism Richard, because you seem to be even further right-wing than the Jim Allister’s of this world.
Unfortunately Richard, your views are effectively old-school sectarian Unionism and they are no longer represented by either of the main Unionist parties. The ongoing pace of unprecedented change on this island is leaving you far behind…
“As for your pathological hatred of Sinn Fein, how you must have squirmed when thay polled over 26% of the vote in the recent Assembly Elections. (Their biggest vote here since the partition of Ireland in 1921).”
Nope, I was heartened once again the electorate prefered Unionist parties to Nationalist ones.
“How you must have squirmed still further when Dr Paisley (the erstwhile Dr. No) entered into a fully co-operational and cordial Government with Sinn Fein. Not too mention his new ‘sugar-sweet’ relationship with The Taoiseach and Dail Eireann.”
Quite the opposite. I was rather amused to see Sinn Fein begging to get back into Stormont after all those promises of not returning there. Only highlights the surrender of the Republican movement. And let us by under no illusions that the IRA was crushed, most defeaten “armies” get to keep their weapons. Only in the face of a total defeat can the victor impose the humilation of forcing the enemy to give up their arms. But hey, I’m sure those “undefeaten army” t-shirts Sinn Fein sells is a conciliation for that
)
As for the hammering Mr Ahern’s party gave Sinn Fein I’m sure Ian Paisley would be very pleased with him. Sinn Fein can’t really claim to speak for Irish Republicans, let alone the Irish people, after that can it?
BTW I suspect you’ll find garden centre Prods will be as impressed with Sinn Fein’s economic arguments as the people in the RoI were
)
“Unfortunately Richard, your views are effectively old-school sectarian Unionism and they are no longer represented by either of the main Unionist parties.”
What sectarian comments have I made? And if you can’t cite any we’ll take it you resorted to that slur as you can’t come up with a better argument than mine. Calling someone a bigot seems to be the Nationalist equivalent of waving a white flag in the face of superior opposition.
Richard,
1. It was 13 years after the IRA Ceasefire before they VOLUNTARILY fully decommissioned their weapons.
2. Two of the most Senior British Army personnel who served here during the troubles have made public statements in the past number of years stating quite categorically that the IRA had been undefeated by British Forces. They conceded that the IRA could have perpetrated a campaign for decades to come (had it been their choosing).
Sorry to let those facts from your own military personnel get in the way of your little rant, Richard…
“It was 13 years after the IRA Ceasefire before they VOLUNTARILY fully decommissioned their weapons.”
The IRA frequently stated it would not decommission because this would be a humiliation and mark its defeat. So the IRA was defeaten by the very definition given by P O’Neill.
And it didn’t voluntarily decommission. It did so because the British government and the DUP insisted it do so.
How does it feel knowing that the IRA obeyed Ian Paisley like a lap dog
)
Hey Richard,
You are clearly confused here…!
You are now championing Dr Paisley, the guy who you earlier lambasted as being both “vulgar” and a a “non-integrationist”.
The same guy who effectively sold you out by breaking every promise he ever made about not going into government with the people he called “Sinn Fein/IRA”.
Have you written to him Richard to express your outrage…? Or have you just accepted that the last great bastion of Protestant Unionism has just sold you out in the same way as Trimble did…
As far as I know Steven King now works as a spokesperson for a right wing think tank, Policy Exchange. It’s the London equivalent of the US Project for a New American Century crowd as far as I can make out.
The UUP is firmly in third place behind SF and the DUP in the north – and its future doesn’t look bright. It’s Simply British campaign was disastrous – as bad an advertisement for supposedly multi cultural Britain as it was for the UUP itself as the message it sent didn’t resonate at all with voters. It bombed as badly as the Decent People Vote UUP message.
It really doesn’t matter much to me who unionists elect as their political representatives. The common agenda of Unionist parties is to continue to marginalise nationalists and to refuse to recognise the legitimacy of their political aspirations. It’s far from representing the “United Kingdom’ to being a good option for nationalists.
“You are now championing Dr Paisley, the guy who you earlier lambasted as being both “vulgar†and a a “non-integrationistâ€.”
He isn’t an intergrationist and would tell you that himself. Nor did I call him vulgar, I simply remarked that the so-called garden centre Prod would have that opinion.
As for Dr Paisley I haven’t got around to writing to him yet, although when I do I was congratulate him for standing his ground until the ultimate humilation was heaped on the IRA.
BTW you didn’t get back to me regarding the IRA’s surrender. Presumably that is because you now accept it was defeaten by its own definition?
Richard,
Actually re your definition of “surrender”, I quoted two British Army Generals who served here and effectively declared the IRA to be an undefeated army.
God, but you are sensitive Richard. You are just going to have to accept that life for you and your brand of Unionism will never, ever be the same again.
By the way I’m delighed you still support Paisley and his policies, because it means that you now fully support Martin McGuinness as your Deputy First Minister (as Paisley does).
Also Richard you now fully accept the new Assembly with 4 Sinn Fein Ministers looking after many aspects of your daily life (as Paisley does.)
Perhaps you are more confused than you previosuly imagined Richard…
“Actually re your definition of “surrenderâ€, I quoted two British Army Generals who served here and effectively declared the IRA to be an undefeated army.”
Saying the IRA could limp on isn’t the same as claiming it was undefeaten. And surely the IRA is better placed to define what its defeat would be?
It failed to achieve its objective of a united Ireland and surrendered its weapons due to a demand from its enemy. By any definition that is total defeat. You remind me of those Germans who didn’t believe their country had lost the First World War in spite of the humilation of Versailles.
As for my life I haven’t really noticed any changes in it since the resoration of the Assembly. NI is still part of the UK. So I’m afraid you are teh deluded one
)
Richard,
Off to watch the Gaelic now, so I’ll leave you to dwell over the “victory” that never actually took place…!
You seem to live in some sort of alternative universe to the rest of us, but hey, as long as you are happy…
Who do you reckon will win today then? Cork or Kerry…?
Going back to the topic: the issue Gonzo raises is very interesting.
I have long believed that, essentially, the DUP was for people who saw their identity primarily in “Ulster” terms, whereas Ulster Unionists saw it primarily in “British” terms. Of course there is some overlap, hence the shift in votes from one to the other. Additionally, the devolved settlement almost requires a national identity (“Scottish”, “Welsh”, “Ulster”) in addition to “British” – in some ways, therefore, Ulster Unionists are living in a world that no longer exists.
From an analytical perspective, however, I think there is something in this for the Ulster Unionists. But there are three problems:
1. as identified, they have to sell this “British” angle in a devolved settlement (not easy);
2. if they are so “British”, why do they insist on standing outside the British political system (i.e. why are they not just the NI branch of the Tories)
3. actually, are there really very many people in NI who do see the White Cliffs and think they’re home?
If I may be so bold, it would be helpful to leave out of this debate the Ulster Unionists’ capacity or otherwise to sell a coherent message – that’s another subject. The question is: is there a division “Ulster” vs “British” from which the UUP can regain votes from the DUP?
IJP,
I understand your argument but I am just not convienced that many people make this distinction on a continual basis. I suspect they shift depending on a given issue.
I know analogies are always flawed but how about someone who works for say Tesco in a local store. They may be loyal to their local store and loyal to Tesco and the differentation is different in different contexts. Or say a health worker who is very proud of say the Royal and also proud of being an NHS nurse or whatever. We all identify at multiple levels. I fear that trying to split an Ulster Nationalist from an Ulster British position is extremely abstract and does not chime with the way the vast majority of people think.
Could it in part be that the UUP are so incoherent in this precisely because it is an incoherent position.
Also it is like I said earlier about people always moaning about places seen as more central.