Confronting the Elephant- Part 2
Following on from the initial post highlighting the practice of some loyalist bands/ Loyal Orders in planning controversial marches, the focus of this post is on the practice of erecting flags and bunting in mixed residential/ commercial areas- a practice which, like clockwork, rears its head round about this time of year and leads to floods of complaints to news desks, PSNI stations and the Talkback switchboard- traditionally to no avail. Only this year, there’s a positive episode (above link) which could be the first indication that some are beginning to appreciate how detrimental the practice is to community relations during the Summer period.Finaghy, like so many other areas of the six counties, is a demographically mixed community, which has had its share of sectarian incidents in the past. However, the establishment of a local cross-community group, the Finaghy Crossroads Group, has created the channel through which nationalist and unionist political representatives have engaged to defuse tensions arising from the siting of flags in the area in the past week.
Of course, some will maintain that objecting to the display of flags and banners reveals an intolerance in itself, though maintaining that view might become more difficult if it meant having to endure the display of flags from ‘the other tradition’ outside your own door on an annual basis.
But what do you think?
‘This thread is irrelevant’
p&j
It may become irrelevant when the order accepts that while it celebrates and welcomes mass murderers within its ranks, they will not be welcome to coat-trail through the communities where they slaughtered in the past.
Maybe if the order or black institution addressed cases such as that of Melville Matthews from Antrim, they might be taken seriously.
Matthews had his assets frozen by the ARA 18 months ago because he was laudering money and racketeering with the uvf/rhc. Action taken by the orders, none.
Is it because he wears a sash & is a master in the black institution that he is still welcome, and does the terrorist association not matter ?
At least that would explain the glorification of the murderers within the organisation & the refusal to take action against those convicted of sectarian murder in the past.
JoeCanuck
Thanks for your post about the 12th celebrations in Canada – very informative.
I was aware that the 00 perpetuate “myths” about their support throughout the world. However, I wasn’t aware of the exact situation in Canada as I have only been there once for a brief holiday.
I lived in London for many years and the vast majority of people didn’t know or care what the OO was. The 12th of July is just a normal day there – I certainly never saw any parades or even 1 bar that had anything signifying the 12th.
Once the TV coverage of Drumcree came along – people became aware of what it was along with it’s links with “loyalist” terrorism, drunken rioting etc. My English friends/colleagues were sickened by the violence and couldn’t believe that an anachronism like the OO existed in this day and age. Apart from the “loyalist” terrorist element, they found it hilarious and I remember there were quite a few comedy sketches on TV mocking the OO.
Outside Scotland + NI, the OO has a minimal presence in Liverpool and that’s it for the UK. Even the Liverpool element is fading (particularly since “Loyalist” terrorist arms were found stored in a Liverpool Orange hall).
The OO like to perpetuate the myth that they are “big” in the US, Australia and New Zealand. Due to the nature of my career, I am fortunate enough to have lived for some time in all of these countries (currently in Aus). I’m here to tell you that there are certainly no parades of any size here in Aus or NZ – the 12th of July came and went like any other day – nothing was mentioned in the news or media and 99.9% of people wouldn’t know or care what the OO is.
When I lived in New York and then Washington, again I never saw any media coverage of any OO parades and people wouldn’t know or care about the OO or the 12th of July.
There are major St Patrick’s day parades in all of these cities. Indeed, it is hard to go find a bar in any of them that isn’t decked out in green on St Patrick’s day.
The OO attempts at positive PR have been laughable. Their inability and/or reluctance to take any action with regard to the links with “loyalist” terrorism makes it easy to expose them – as does their inability to find any “spokesmen” of any calibre.
The “myth” of their supposed worldwide support may be believed by their members (choosing to ignore the facts as they often do). However, anyone who has actually travelled to these cities can see the difference between the OO spin and the reality.
You know thinking back on it I think I once seen an OO parade in my humble little town of 40 thousand.
I remember seeing about 20 senior citizens shuffling down the road and it could be wishfull thinking but I think they were wearing orange sashes and boler hats
There were no spectators just thes 20 or so old men shuffling along at high speed down the street. I remember thinking it looked like a parade but as I hadnt heard there was a parade I just kind of filed it under odd expieriences and forgot about it.
The funniest thing was it looked like they were all huddling together for protection and looked more like a roman legion in defensive position then a parade. Of course this being Canada they were probably loooking for protection against the traffic then rocks hurled by the local disgruntled youth.
I will have to have a closer look this July 12th maybe I can see the mighty OO in action lol except probably half those old guys are dead it was 10 years ago
Billy – “Outside Scotland + NI, the OO has a minimal presence in Liverpool and that’s it for the UK.”
Sorry to disappoint you but there are Orange lodges across England.
Good to see you back to your usual sectarian rant!
frank – “It may become irrelevant when the order accepts that while it celebrates and welcomes mass murderers within its ranks, they will not be welcome to coat-trail through the communities where they slaughtered in the past.”
Should Unionist communities accept Sinn Fein IRA ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive visiting their areas? Communities where SF IRA have slaughtered in the past.
You then go on to make accusations about a particular person. Are you related to Chris Donnelly by any chance? Or do you both just belong to the Sinn Fein IRA group?
p&j
‘You then go on to make accusations about a particular person’
I suggest you contact UTV’s insight programme if you have concerns about senior black institution member, master Matthew’s.
Sovereign grand master of the black, Billy Logan made a complete arse of himself when he tried to tell lies over the continued involvment of the paramilitary blackmailer in the institution.
Perhaps Billy should read his own mission statement ‘in order to maintain, and enhance greater and higher standards of Justice, Truth, Honesty, and Integrity in both private and public life.’
A bit like the orange order in that the rules do not apply to loylaist paramilitaries
http://www.octf.gov.uk/index.cfm/section/News/page/details/key/Assetsofparamilitaryloansharkfrozen/?month=12&year=2005
PeaceandJustice
Being accused of a “sectarian rant” by you is such a classic – I love it.
It’s so obvious from your rants that the “PeaceandJustice” you refer to is the pre 1968 variety when the taigs knew their place and we had the good old Protestant state for a Protestant people.
Incidentally, I didn’t say that there were no OO lodges in England. I said that the only place they have any (dwindling) meaningful presence is Liverpool. Having travelled the length and breadth of England in my career, I can safely say that the numbers of OO members in England would be laughable. Almost every town in NI has an Orange Hall – quite the reverse in the UK – you’d have a hard job finding one unless you knew where it was in advance.
In most places, the local WI or rotary club would have more members and more influence on the local community than the OO (assuming there was one – which there isn’t more often than not).
If it’s so popular in England (as you ludicrously claim) – how come the vast majority of people had never heard of it pre-Drumcree? All the news programs had to explain to their viewers what it was (many still do). I wasn’t in London for the recent OO parade but I still have relatives and many friends/collegaues there. It didn’t warrant a mention on the news and didn’t exactly bring central London to a standstill (as so many other marches have)did it?.
England is largely a secular country – most people don’t give a damn about religion and fewer give a shit about NI. They don’t understand and when they hear your accent, they just take you as Irish (they are not interested in Protestant or Catholic). As the reaction to the first Drumcree showed, the public were sickened by the actions of the OO “loyalist” terrorist supporters and found the institution itself an anachronism. Hence, the popularity at the time of sketches in comedy shows lampooning the OO.
As I said, the only place that the OO can bring out any sort of numbers to parade is NI + Scotland. You can rant all you want but the FACTS speak for themselves.
Of course if you are an Irish Republican Sean you never conceded that the victims of “the government” were ever in fact the ‘own people’ of the British government.
So whilst it would be legitimate for the victims’ families or for British people to demand “the government” hold enquiries into state sanctioned crimes, for Irish Republicans, who fought a thirty year war against the concept that people in the six counties were ‘citizens’ of the UK government, to do so rather smacks of hypocrisy!
No Harry its the British who claim them as citizens whether they choose to be or not so my statement stands
2nd if you were paying attention at all you would know I am Canadian, albeit whith many a tie back to ireland,Scotland, Wales and England
Driving through Lisburn today on my way to the airport my mother and I burst out laughing at the sight of pirate flags flying alongside Union Jacks and “NI” flags.
Why oh why?
Someone please shed some light on this! I know that these erectors of flags are thugs, but pirates? Are loyalists celebrating the release of Pirates of the Caribbean 3 ? Ooh arr, shiver me timbers!
Billy – There seems little point in having debates with you. You are sectarian to the core. Maybe you’ll get invited by Sinn Fein IRA to be part of their Unionist Outreach – you meet the criteria.
Maybe they are adherents of the relatively new religion of Pastafarianism
Believers such as myself believe global warming is tied to the reduction in the number of Pirates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastafarianism
PeaceandJustice
“Billy – There seems little point in having debates with you. You are sectarian to the core. Maybe you’ll get invited by Sinn Fein IRA to be part of their Unionist Outreach – you meet the criteria.”
My initial post dealt with the influence of the OO (or lack of it) in the counties in which I have lived – your response – 1 “fact” (with NO supporting evidence) and accusing me of a “sectarian rant”.
Intellectual debate of the highest calibre!
My second post dealt with the 1 “fact” that was included in your post.
Your response – dealing with none of the issues and calling me “sectarian to the core” – a real laugh since I am happily married to an English Protestant.
You could always have tried to rebut my points with reasoned argument and any FACTS (if you had any) to disprove my points. Instead both your “points” were just blatent insults aimed at me.
I don’t pretend to be the best debater in the world but at least I can make a coherent point without resorting to insults. I certainly don’t need any lessons in debate from someone like you although, if I ever need any tips in lowering the “debate” to crude sectarian name-calling, I’ll definitely give you a call.
BTW, I have never been a Sinn Fein member, voter or supporter, When I lived in NI, I was an SDLP supporter as were all my family.
Billy – “When I lived in NI,I was an SDLP supporter”
You must have been from the Brian Feeney wing of the party. When you calm yourself down and are able to have a balanced debate, let me know.
In the Republic it was bonfires night when this article appeared. The christians took the idea from pagans.
In NI the Christian Orange Order is followed by pagans who offer yellow liquid to appease their deity.
Well done NI for having the pagans steal from the Christians.
Irish Prod said (at 02.41):
“Driving through Lisburn today on my way to the airport my mother and I burst out laughing at the sight of pirate flags flying alongside Union Jacks and “NI†flags.
Why oh why?
Someone please shed some light on this!”
See the thread Pirates of the Midly Insane.
part 3 should be a cracker – poor Chris must be devastated that the Springfield road parade passed off peacefully.
http://breaking.tcm.ie/ireland/mhkfqlkfcwoj/
I hope part 3 mentions the number of orange lodges using paramilitary bands in todays parade.
Be honest, just call it a uvf parade.
Even if they were ALL paramilitary bands, the fact that it went off peacefully suggests that the deciding factor isn’t the OO or the bands – but whether or not the republicans want to riot.
Well done SF if they HAVE called off the dogs – and I mean that. It will make a huge impact and certainly would explain Mac Cionnaith quitting in a huff.
I think you’ll find the last time there was trouble at the Whiterock parade it was coming from the ‘Orange’ side, cost £3 million and involved shooting at the police. All in the name of the Orange.
‘Even if they were ALL paramilitary bands, the fact that it went off peacefully suggests that the deciding factor isn’t the OO or the bands – but whether or not the republicans want to riot.’
Were you on holiday in June 05
What a bizarre statement considering the mindless violence of the orange order and loyalism a couple of years ago.
I see that numbers were down today on recent years.. no fun when you can’t get through the gates to coat trail & wave uvf banners !
Torrens – the numbers will continue to fall because of the republicans good behaviour. The loyalist riff raff will only go if trouble is expected.
So those Republicans made the poor Loyalists fire automatic weapons at the police and riot?
The poor wee oppressed lambs.
If only those Republicans had been quiet they wouldn’t have needed to cause £3 million worth of bedlum, riot and shoot at people.
Frank – the attendance of ‘people’ like Mad Dog was a response to Adams Adare Strategy.
That’s what I said. People like you will blame Loyalist riots and shooting at the police in support of the Orange Order on Republicans.
It was Adams’ fault you say.
I’m sure the UVF/UDA and Orange Order appreciate your justification of their unprovoked actions in 2005.
Gerry Adams made me shoot at those cops your honour.
LOL.
facts are facts Frank – the Adare strategy was Adams’ last desperate throw of the dice . It failed to provoke civil war, Thank God.
Cruimh,
Adare strategy? Please explain
crumb bum do you actually think about that crap before you post it or do you have to hold your nose till you hit the post button to keep yourself from regurgitating from smelling the crap
turgon surely as an oo stooge you must have been told that it was the IRA that made adare stand beside the oo in rioting against the catholics. Surely to sugest anything else might bring the oo into disrepute for actively supporting terrorists