Confronting the elephant- Part 1
A number of days ago I started a thread suggesting that, if the Loyal Orders were serious about engendering trust within the nationalist community and working towards an inclusive 12th July celebration, then tackling the elephant that is the overtly sectarian dimension to the Loyalist marching season would be a prerequisite.
And so to a case study: June 2007 and its Groundhog Day in the normally quiet village of Stoneyford, County Antrim. However, as in the previous two years, a loyalist band has applied to march on the 11th Night into a number of newly-built mixed housing developments. A number of years ago, the band completed the parade wearing ‘Orange Volunteers’ paramilitary t-shirts, no doubt to make the numerous catholic and mixed marriage homeowners in particular feel welcome, though they were banned from the housing developments last year. The new housing developments have been the scene of a number of sectarian attacks on homes and cars, with a number of catholic families fleeing their homes in the past three years.
Now, this isn’t a Loyal Order parade as such- no, the local Brethren will be marching up the main street as usual the following day, without any complaints. But the band will be involved in the 12th July parade as usual, with many of its members making up the membership of local lodges- and the parade will be starting and finishing in the local Orange Hall.
As an interesting aside, the leading Stoneyford loyalist, Mark Harbinson, is a senior member of the band, not to mention new supporter and election worker for local Ulster Unionist MLA, Basil McCrea.
And so to my proposition: it is clear that there is a section of the Orange Order and broader unionist community which loathes such calculated acts of sectarian harassment.
Would it not send a hearteningly positive message of Orange intentions were senior members of the Order to publicly condemn such antics and, at least in this example, recommend the band follow the lead of the local lodge?
Mick is correct about the topics that come up on Slugger. It shouldn’t be for him to censor topics. That said, it’s dispiriting to wade through a lot of tedious anti-Orange rhetoric and, as has already been said, sh*t-stirring blogging from Chris Donnelly about highly localised situations. Perhaps the likes of Frank think that if they can throw the same mud day after day people will stop responding to it.
Darth, if I were you, I’d copy some of my posts and paste them into the next anti-Orange MOPEry, for there are still 3 weeks to go.
“That said, I have to agree that it is almost impossible to have a sane conversation on Slugger (and possibly anywhere in Northern Ireland) when the name of the Orange is mentioned: inevitably the red mist descends. At the same time even the mildest reference to examples of Catholic bigotry is routinely slapped down as being out of order (http://tinyurl.com/2znvxw).”
Now it might be me, Mick, but it seems there aren’t really that many comments on that thread to make a fair comparison. And topics on Republican commemorations or naming of GAA grounds have generated equal amounts of heat and light.
It takes two to tango as well Mick, and while there has been the odd decent discussion I have yet to see any real movement at all on the Unionist side about the OO. The “But lots of Ketholics come to the parade and like it” is still being trotted out. Repeatedly.
“Niall,
Is your boiler busted? “prepare for the possibility of the invasion of the natives†what natives? Am I not a native of this country? What are you on about?”
Cromwell,
I’ve read Orange Order documents from the time of the 1978 rebellion where the Irish are referred to as natives.
Was the purpose of the Orange Order originally not to militarise young Protestant Ulstermen? What is its role now?
Ziznivy – “I think the problem that you have Mick is that unionists are increasingly viewing Slugger as disproportionately full of Republican propaganda.”
Exactly. Perhaps Slugger should re-brand as a Republican debating forum. We’re three-quarters there already.
There is very little balanced debate about:
- Sinn Fein IRA murderers in the Government yet victims left to suffer
- the majority of Roman Catholics in NI supporting people who killed and bombed their Protestant neighbours
- the GAA celebrating the lives of murdering thugs
- the inequality of funding for Unionist communities incl the Orange Order and Ulster British culture
- the political promotion of the Irish Language
- the refusal of the Sinn Fein IRA leadership to apologise for their hate crimes
- the corruption of politics on these islands by using money obtained illegally
- monuments to Sinn Fein IRA terrorists who murdered Protestants
- no justice or enquiries for the victims of Sinn Fein IRA violence e.g. bloody Sunday in Enniskillen
- no compensation for the relatives of border Protestants affected by ethnic cleansing
- funding of terrorism by naive Irish-Americans who should be named and shamed
- no recognition for the British-Irish citizens in Eire yet people in NI can have a foreign RoI passport
- no enquiries into the ethnic cleansing of Protestants in Eire and denial of their cultural rights
- no enquiry into how Eire was used as a safe haven for terrorists (e.g. Owen Carron teaching in state school in Eire while wanted in NI for terrorism offences)
- the police ombudsman not acting impartially in relation to the RUC (the wife of a Unionist politician wouldn’t get such a job)
- no equality in sport with island of Ireland teams being represented by RoI flags and anthems
I could go on and on. However, there seems to be very little chance of having a reasonable debate about such issues on Slugger. Pan-Nationalists have signed up to a UK settlement yet don’t want to speak or hear its name – they’re in denial. They shouldn’t be allowed to continue using Slugger for propaganda purposes. Otherwise we need to have another site which ensures more balance.
“Otherwise we need to have another site which ensures more balance.”
This is “balance” as defined by Fox News?
I am sure Mick would point out that it is trivial for you to set up your own blog.
PandJ,
That’s a very long list, and I do take your general point. In defence: 1, we have covered quite a few of those alread; 2, I am always grateful for a prompt in such directions; 3, not sure the accusation stands up against the blog’s output from the top (2 of our most regular commenters are unionist ‘politicos’).
Though it is hard to get away from the impression that the debate below is carried mostly by nationalist commenters, you can be pretty sure that some of those topics you mention are generally dominated by nationalists determined to get their narrative on it first. It’s run as an open space, so it is hard to legislate for that kind of thing.
“- no recognition for the British-Irish citizens in Eire yet people in NI can have a foreign RoI passport
- no enquiries into the ethnic cleansing of Protestants in Eire and denial of their cultural rights
- no enquiry into how Eire was used as a safe haven for terrorists (e.g. Owen Carron teaching in state school in Eire while wanted in NI for terrorism offences)”
What British-Irish citizens are you talking about? How many southern Protestants want a British passport? This isn’t 1912. They mostly consider themselves proudly Irish. They are recognised as they want to be: as equal Irish citizens.
Ethnic cleansing certainly took place in some parts of the country around the time of the War of Independence/Civil War but there has been no systematic denial of Protestant cultural rights in Eire since then. They are allowed do as they please. And you lot talk about republican MOPEry.
Safe haven for terrorists? More could have been done in certain cases, but don’t forget Sinn Fein were banned from appearing on TV, Charles Haughey was thrown out of government over the Arms Crisis and the majority of people had nothing but detest for Sinn Fein and the IRA during the Troubles. Extradition was a problem because of infamous NI security force brutality.
The Republic hasn’t always conducted itself perfectly in matters relating to Northern Ireland, but its population and body politic weren’t poisonously prejudiced either.
Briso
“This is all easily said”
I didn’t say it was easy I said “It is the more difficult path”.
I see the unionists have thrown the teddy bear in the corner….again :>)
“there has been no systematic denial of Protestant cultural rights in Eire since then.”
Hmmm
In the modern era, the Celtic tiger 21st century no less, two attempts were made in Dublin and Cork to hold parades with an Orange presence. Dublin was cancelled after individual orangemen were subjected to a campaign of intimidation; Cork withdrew the invite to take part in the European City of Culture festivities. And how can we forget the warm welcome to the (admittedly daft) Love Ulster rally, mistakenly labelled an Orange parade? Oh and even that loveable Rossknowlagh parade that everyone goes on about wasn’t always able to take place in years past.And it was only initiated after attacks on parades in Cavan and Monaghan in the 30s, as a result of which the border lodges decided to stay away from centres of population
Noone’s claiming that there’s a jackboot on the Prods’ necks, but let’s not deny there’s still a lot of work to be done
[i]Pounder
I find it hard to believe that you were ever in the OO, besides you leaving speaks volumes about yourself. You were so weak and insignificant that instead of trying to changes things from within you left and cried foul from outside. It should also be noted that the Order was going very strong before the outbreak of the troubles and if you were in the OO you would have known this.
[/i]
I was a member of several lodges from I was 17 untill I was 21, would you like the numbers?. With maturity I finally chose to reject religion, isn’t a bit hippocritical to remain in a primarily religious organisation if you have no religion yourself?
There are many factors in why I chose to become athiest, the behaviours ot many christian protestants where a major factor in that. Further reinforced by their actions on verious parades. In one perticular occasion I remember being with Ballynafeigh and finally a compremise was made to allow us through the holy lands and over the bridge, a very fair compremise in my opinion. No sooner had our feet touched Ormeau Bridge than senior members of the order there where demnding that the band play The Sash. At that point I realised that the OO doesn’t have any compremise in them it’s all take.
Fair enough points, Rumsfeld, but it seemed to me that unionists were quick to point to the 200-300 teenage thugs that disrupted the Love Ulster rally as evidence that the south was a hostile place and were keen to overlook the fact that the Irish police, representing our government and the will of the majority of the population, battled these clowns and there was widespread condemnation of the riot.
It seems to me that its part of unionist mythology to convince themselves that the Irish are all out to get them, thereby justifying their antipathy to the Republic and to NI Catholics.
Northern Ireland was not created out of a sense of fear, but a sense of superiority. That is what the Orange Order celebrates. Being equal is a comedown for many orangemen.
Can’t see how this site has Republican bias when the bloggers breakdown by output is:
Mick – tries neutrality
Pete Baker – Anti-Republican, anti-Hain, space and culture
Fair-Deal – Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist (PUL)
Gonzo – Alliance
Chris Donnolly – SF Republican
Michael Shilliday – Ulster Unionist
Rusty Nail – Republican anti-SF
4 of the bloggers have massive amounts of anti-SF or anti-Republican output – Baker, FD, Shilliday and Rusty.
If the problem is a lack of balancing positives on PUL stuff take it up with them (but FD does provide the positives) they are certainly good enough at the attack posts.
The real elements I see as missing are non-SF related Republican or Nationalist contributions. Nothing from the SDLP sphere or representing those Republicans who disagree with SF but don’t see Republicanism as being about attacking them like Rusty Nail.
To be honest, the real deficit is policy wonks. We need a few more independent voices who understand educuation, the economy, the environment. I would also like to see us take on a few more bloggers from elsewhere who are interested in narrating matters below the border and across the water.
To be honest, the real deficit is policy wonks. We need a few more independent voices who understand educuation, the economy, the environment.
A couple of them in Stormont wouldn’t go amiss either ; – >
Niall,
I would presume earlier you meant the 1798 rebellion!
It also might be an idea if you threw away that big brush & tar bucket you’ve just hit every Unionist & Orangeman with above.
“Being equal is a comedown for many Orangemen”!
Sorry I just wanted to see how f*cking ridiculous that statement looked!!!
I feel so superior to you! No honestly, I really do.
Sadly many Orangemen do indeed feel superior, they feel they have divine given right to go where they aren’t wanted and drive fear into the heart of a community. Why would you really want to walk down a road where you’re jeered at and not wanted?
Cromwell,
It’s not ridiculous at all. Maybe you don’t feel like that, but that was the historical basis for the orange movement and there are still those who hang on to those beliefs.
If you and your compatriots have moved on so immensely from your forebears in the Orange Order then you have to question why you continue to unquestionably carry on the same traditions. Not everything is worth preserving, and it doesn’t make you less British/Protestant/Unionist to realise that.
It’s certainly the view many Catholics and people outside the north have of the organisation. So either a whole lot of people are being pretty stupid or the OO is pretty bad at marketing itself. It’s probably too much of an ask to remodel an organisation that is dedicated to the memory of 1690, however.
What was that quote about why the OO wanted to march down a certain road.
Because that’s where the Catholics are stupid!(ok I’ve slightly re-arranged it, meaning stays the same though)
Carlsberg don’t do supremacist offensive marches, but if they did…..I’m sure they would have a job outdoing our very own brethren, nice people that they are!
“Northern Ireland was not created out of a sense of fear, but a sense of superiority.”
what nonsense
In my opinion Slugger tries hard and is pretty successful at having a fairly well balanced range of viewpoints. Does anyone have an example of a blog doing better ? Ask David Vance or Pat McLarnon for their opinions on what way Slugger is biased, and you’ll get two contradicting answers. As others have said, this suggests that Mick is doing something right. In every other thread there is an accusation that the blog is biased against either unionists or nationalists.
What people seem to be having trouble with is the idea that people are entitled to express alternative points of view, particularly a point of view that is the polar opposite of theirs. Rather than take on the argument, we seem to tend to home in on the person making it and complain that they were permitted to make it in the first place. It’s not just on Slugger, our own politicians do it as well – such as when Davenport asked Gerry Adams about the Army Council, or the response you get from a DUPer whenever you ask about the Third Force or the UWC strike, or that time when Willie McCrea got up on a podium with Billy Wright. Perhaps it is our inability to have a civilized exchange of views which is why we resorted to guns and bombs over the past thirty years.
PeaceAndJustice, your UDA shopping list is going to be largely ignored because collectively, they constitute a range of issues in the past which do not constitute anything like a significant element of the current political narrative in NI. The other stuff in your list seems to be complaining about efforts to try to include Irish cultural elements in NI political life. I’m surprised that you have a problem with this, as things like bilingualism and multiculturalism are common elements of life for British people in the UK. Go to Scotland or Wales and you’ll find loads of bilingual signs, cultural events, and other things. Despite the fact that Scots Gaelic and Welsh are spoken by relatively few people, the government still spends a proportion of it’s money on efforts to recognize and sustaining them.
Bear in mind that the political point of view that you have has no voice, and that is because nobody supports it. Unionists had a spokesperson in Bob McCartney who offered to represent them against the DUP/SF arrangement, but they utterly rejected it. You are marginalized and you have no votes and no future. If you want to know why Sinn Fein are in government, ask your neighbours why they voted DUP/UUP despite knowing that this would happen. Meanwhile, please do us a favour and go and whine somewhere else. Do as you say and set up your own monocultural unionist blog – see how long it lasts.
Yet another post where the collective unionist response is to go apeshit, throw the dummy out and cry ‘foul’ to Mick.
And btw, I take it I can now refer to other bloggers as ‘shit-stirring scumbags’ without editing??
This is a perfect example of why unionists must be made to face the fact that nationalists aren’t about to be silenced because what we say doesn’t suit your agenda.
If you don’t like it, tough shit. Take yourself off to another site and discuss how mean those nasty nationalists were to highlight examples of bigotry in action.
Commenters have already pointed out that this site is coming down with anti-republican, pro-unionist bloggers. And so it should, as they reflect a section of our community.
But for some to object to my posting because it makes them undomfortable is not only laughable but illustrative of an intolerant mindset which needs a good shaking. And, lads, crying about Slugger becoming a ‘republican’ site every time a topic is raised that you don’t like become a bit tiresome after a while, if not MOPEish…
Now, back to the topic.
I’ll not bother re-reading every post to identify the commenter I’m responding to as it’d take all night.
1. I know a number of the bandsmen are in local lodges because I’ve seen them pictured in Orange regalia and have been told by locals.
2. People bringing their ‘narrow’ mindsets with them when moving to the suburbs, FD? ‘Narrowness’ defined as objecting to a paramilitary outfit marching into a small housing development which has already been bedecked with loyalist flags by outsiders? If it is indeed a more worthy objective to seek mutual tolerance all round, then I look forward to unionists welcoming republican parades and the erection of republican flags and symbols in mixed/ commercial parts of Glengormley, Lisburn and Ballymena (oops, on the last one, I seem to recall the DUP having an apopletic fit last year when a republican parade was proposed for a nationalist part of Ballymena? Mutual tolerance indeed!)
Chris – how about you putting your own house in order before coming over all sanctimonious about the Orange Order and unionist posters ?
cruimh
Perhaps when the orange order stop celebrating murdering scum like the shankill butchers and supporting and welcoming active terrorists into its ranks they can claim some level playing field with ordinary people.
Until that time, they can go shaft themselves.
‘CRUM’
Eh? When you’ve dried your eyes, please elaborate.
And while you’re at it, address the central points of the thread and possibly even the question of why far too many unionist posters here lose the rag every time an issue is raised that is not to their liking? If I- or other republicans- were to do so, then Mick’d have no time to post as he’d be responding to complaints about virtually every non-space post by Pete and most threads started by FD!
“Eh? When you’ve dried your eyes, please elaborate.”
well, moaning on about groundhog day when the groundhog here is your repeat of last year’s blog mate
But for more detail – from the charm offensive thread :
It’s impossible to think of the outreach as anything other than a PR stunt aimed at a wider audience when at the same time SF are still attacking unonism – as seen at the moment by the annual attack on the Orange Order.
So, if SF want to be viewed with a less jaundied eye by my community, some suggestions
1) don’t use terrorists as point men – it’s bizarre to have a party headed by convicted killers that commemorate convicted killers and terrorists criticising another organisation because a few lodges have banners commemorating paramilitaries.
2) stop supporting terrorists round the world
( addition -and do something about the OTR FARC reprobates)
3) sort out the disappeared – SF saying “nothing to do with us†is made even more ridiculous by their attacks on the OO for exactly the same evasions about crimes committed by current and past members of the OO
4) get your act together about the string of murders – Gerry McCabe, Joseph Rafferty, Robert McCartney – associated with your party. (see number 3)
5) Be honest – either give us a genuine apology or else say we did it, so what. The crocodile tears and semi-apologies are not helpful but are offensive.
Posted by Cruimh on Jun 20, 2007 @ 07:26 PM
see what I’m getting at ? The OO can use exactly the same excuses as you and your party do to avoid awkward issues.
Firstly
If you seriously think outreach involves giving up being a republican and adopting a unionist line, then you’re sadly mistaken. It is only proper for republicans- and others- to criticise blatant examples of sectarian intimidation, amongst many other things, whilst at the same time remaining willing to engage with unionists at all levels.
Unionists could do worse then reciprocate.
On the list:
1. I could just as easily identify British and unionist leaders as terrorists or such sympathisers- the key is that Sinn Fein aren’t the one’s seeking to parade through mixed residential areas to hammer home the point (while I have you, please state whether you favour a republican parade from Ardoyne across the Shankill to west Belfast? I can’t seem to get a response from some unionists dedicated to free assembly on that one….)
2. ‘Supporting global terror’- and I thought it was the unionist parties that had unequivocally backed Bush and Blair in their Iraq folly….
3. You’re correct on the Disappeared to highlight the necessity of republicans doing all they can to end the plight of the victims’ families.
4. I think all Sinn Fein members should have long before now made statements as to all they knew in McCartney case- the Rafferty case appears to me more about media hyping a link to republicans- and on McCabe, I thought those involved were convicted and in jail????
5. To the crux of the matter. Unionism’s MOPEish vied of the conflict as having been inflicted upon them: utter bullshit. Republicans- and ironically many loyalists- have acknowledged the role of the British state and loyalists/ republicans in the conflict, as well as expressing remorse for the hurt and grief caused, whilst (naturally) all sides remain of the view that their involvement was legitimate.
If you’re holding out for a sackcloth moment, good luck.
While we’re on the issue
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0620/dublin.html
LOL at Chris removing my post !
“One only has to look at Drumcree or the Whiterock to see the type of behaviour that OO supporters indulge in when they don’t get what they want.” – Billy
Billy, thanks for your thoughtful post. I’m fully aware that some parades are contentious and seen as provocative or offensive… hence the establishment of the Parades Commission. Obviously, a ‘stand-off’ or bloody-minded mentality has arisen between the two communities in such cases. I assume that the Parades Commission is doing the job it was set up to do.
I’m also aware that the Orange Order a is a private organisation that discriminates against potential members by their religion; so, by default, it is a specifically sectarian organisation. That’s regrettable but hardly fatal.
Like any sectarian organisation, it attracts extremes. What the moderates need to do is introduce a very strong Code of Conduct to weed the extremes out of the organisation. If it manages to do that (and the Parades Commission does the rest), then there isn’t why it can’t function as a sectarian organisation without being offensive to those who don’t belong to the sect, is there?
That part of Chris Donnelly’s anti-Orangism I can readily agree with: get your house in order. What is that Dubliner’s song: thank g-d there’s a border, err ocean… between us.
Correction: ….then there isn’t [b]any reason[/b]why it can’t function…
cruimh
Before this becomes another source of grievance: I haven’t removed any post- as I’ve said before on the site, I’ve yet to even discover how to remove posts in my time writing on the site. Afraid you’ll have to look elsewhere for the cuplrit.
Cruimh,
I don’t like removing people’s posts, as much as I don’t like banning them. Just try to play the ball… And let me go to my bed…
‘I’m also aware that the Orange Order a is a private organisation that discriminates against potential members by their religion; so, by default’
When the moderates within the order are content to commemorate some of the most savage murderers over the last 35 years, i don’t see why any community should welcome these people in or near their homes.
The orange order and Apprentice boys have every right to march within communities where the uff & uvf are acceptable role models, but please don’t sound surprised when the victims object to the glorification of loyalist terrorism near, close or within certain areas
[i]…if the Loyal Orders were serious about engendering trust within the nationalist community and working towards an inclusive 12th July celebration, then tackling the elephant that is the overtly sectarian dimension to the Loyalist marching season would be a prerequisite. [/i]
so the Orange Order should get its act together about confronting the sectarian elements within its ranks and the hangers on at parades. Fair enough …
[i]And so to a case study: June 2007 and its Groundhog Day in the normally quiet village of Stoneyford, County Antrim. [/i]
Ah, OK you’re now going to present me with some evidence as to how the Orange Order is neglecting to face up to its responsibility in resolving sectarian tensions ….
[i]However, as in the previous two years, a loyalist band has applied to march on the 11th Night into a number of newly-built mixed housing developments. [/i]
Orangemen marching on the 11th night? Oh no wait that’s a loyalist band – not actually anything to do with the Orange Order ….
[i] Now, this isn’t a Loyal Order parade as such- no, the local Brethren will be marching up the main street as usual the following day, without any complaints. [/i]
Yes and now you actually admit to this fact.
[i] … and the parade will be starting and finishing in the local Orange Hall.[/i]
As far as I’m aware Stoneyford is a pretty small place, what other building/hall in the village do you suggest they start from or finish off at?
Sorry wasn’t the point of this thread to point out the hypocrisy of the Orange Order in dealing with the cross-community inclusiveness of its parades? Instead of doing that you are highlighting the actions of a loyalist band, who aren’t associated with the Orange Order just so you can score some cheap points at the Order’s expense and goad Unionists in general.
This thread is a highlight in your continuous output of frankly wearisome anti-Protestant threads.
Walter, the OO isn’t going to disband. The best anyone can hope for is reform where it is needed. A Code of Conduct that that removes members who have crimimal convictions (or are otherwise associated with sectarian crimes) is the only available option in the real world.
And before someone points it out: a similar CoC for public office might be a good idea.
So when Chris Donnellys string of sectarian posts have been challenged and scruitinesed he resorts to swearing and name calling to present some warped view he has on the Orange tradition.
This thread in general has been very tiresome its basically an attack on the Protestant population using some very isolated and generally unproven events to substantiate these attacks.
Mick
You seen fit to delete a post by a Unionist poster, what about much of the lies that has been thrown towards the OO via this thread will you be deleting these posts as well?
You have also not stated if you will be employing someone to write a pro OO thread in the not to distant future to combat the string of tiresome, inaccurate and rather sectarian threads by Chris Donnelly. It also concerns me that this thread has been called ‘Part 1′ which leads me to believe that there will be an even worse sequel to follow by the great Mr Donnelly, although I’m unsure as to how much worse his posts can possibly become.
Could there be a system indicating the names that certain ppl have posted under previously? Cruimh is an example of a multiple identity person.
Owning up, I have had precisely 2 identities, one of which led to stalking. One previous (sacked) moderator here on Slugger (that should narrow it down!) has had multiple identities and yet accuses others of trolling…
These constant posts by Chris Donnelly talking shut really does put people off wasting time looking at this site, myself included.
He posted the exact same thread last week and then another earlier this week and now this one? WTF?
Now if hes that desperate to get anything anti protestant/unionist on this site then let him post away but please can he try to change the topic occasionally?
Anyone reading this thread today wouldn’t have a clue that SF have only risen to the position they are in through murdering innocent people. That’s what makes this country so f*cked up.
Could there be a system indicating the names that certain ppl have posted under previously?
But then replies on slugger would go down 80%… and seemingly that just wouldn’t do.
FYU
I agree with everything you have said, I also think its time for a thread from someone from a pro Orange tradition.
The number of lies spewed out from these threads relating to te OO is absurd with membership dwindled to around 10-15000, to the institutions offical demise in 2015. Someone here claimed the OO had released figures stating its membership was at 50,000 there is no truth at all in this as there is no truth with much of the parmilitary elements as well.
Mick – the man not ball is a joke –
“Eh? When you’ve dried your eyes, please elaborate.â€
etc
Posted by Chris Donnelly on Jun 20, 2007 @ 08:44 PM
Chris Donnelly was playing the Ball ???????
And you remove my post because I had a laugh at the waffle Chris served up in response ?
Slugger on an anti-Protestant/ anti-Unionist witchhunt? Time for threads from a Protestant/ Unionist position?
Is this Alice in Wonderland?
Firstly, FD does quite a good job starting threads on issues and concerns of importance to unionists/ protestants/ loyalists.
What I continue to find fascinating is the hyperbole and tantrum-throwing that occurs when issues and matters of importance and concern to nationalists/ republicans is raised through threads initiated by myself.
It is truly revealing as to the level of intolerance within some sections of unionism that people don’t even want to acknowledge the equal legitimacy of the nationalist viewpoint.
And, yes, FYU/DO, I’ll continue starting threads as I see fit, regardless of whinges to Mick about groundless accusations of sectarianism.
Fair enough if Chris is going to be critical of Unionists – I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is that most of it is contrived bullsh#t. Take this thread as an example – he tries to highlight the sectarian nature of the OO by connecting it with the wishes of an unassociated loyalist band to march on the 11th night.
It seems he really is scraping the barrel when it comes to trying to put Unionists down. When it comes down to it, whether the likes of Chris Donnelly believe it or not, most Orangemen are just religious old men – about as bland and inoffensive as anyone else – not rabid loyalist bigots.
[i]And, yes, FYU/DO, I’ll continue starting threads as I see fit, regardless of whinges to Mick about groundless accusations of sectarianism.[/i]
I didn’t whinge to Mick, I’m more than able to go straight to the source, i.e. you, about the rubbish you come out with.
Which leads me to my earlier post, 10, where I pointed out that the accusations in your piece have nothing to do with the Orange Order. Or does the truth not matter in any of the threads you start?
“Why would you really want to walk down a road where you’re jeered at and not wanted?”
Ah there’s the rub (as Paul Berry said to his masseur)
Well I’m sure that for some people there’s an unhealthy degree of pleasure in sticking it up to the other sort, but if that were so, then there’d be a lot more deliberately contentious parades.
The little I read of this band parade seems to put it on the cusp of coat-trailing if it’s not traditional, and goes in to a mixed residential area late at night.
But most contentious parades are in area where local people simply want to do what they always did; it’s just the demographics have changed. 18 years ago when I was working in Crumlin it was a sleepy predominantly protestant village; now its a suburb of Andytown. The local orangemen have lived and worked there for much longer than the recent inhabitants. When they were parading the town in the 1950s, 60s, 70s,and 80s there was no one to offend or indeed to goad.
They didn’t just decide in 2000 “Hey this place is full of Shinners, lets slap it up ‘em”. It’s a valid point that the incomers have to have some consideration of village traditions. You could make the same point about Glenavy, Bellaghy, Dunloy, the Garvaghy Road. They’re all places where the population has changed in recent years, and in essence the real issue is that the new majority are saying – admittedly at a susbconscious level I admit-”We are the masters now”, and so hitting the orangemen’s raw nerve. There simply is no other explanation for cases such as Dunloy where a miniscule parade of less than 40 people, with a staid accordion band playing hymns, apparently causes apoplexy in the entire population for the crime of walking a couple of hundred yards-if even that- up a street on a wet Sunday afternoon. If that’s the best prods can do for triumphalism or provocation, our days as Most Oppressing People.. Ever! are doomed
>>most Orangemen are just religious old men – about as bland and inoffensive as anyone else – not rabid loyalist bigots.<<
This is the important bit though! Can you not understand that they either facilitate or ignore the actions of ‘your minority’ of Orangemen and supporters to varying degrees in different areas. C’mon the outlandish displays of hatred often dressed up as fun intimidates a whole section of society. This is not anti-Unionism or other such nonsense, this is reality. It will have to cease, and until it does all, be they inoffensive auld guys or those genuinely pro-Prod will be tarred by the same brush.
The reputation of the OO throughout the world is buggered, it will take a long time to repair. Best start soonest eh, less shooting at the messengers might help
“Anyone reading this thread today wouldn’t have a clue that SF have only risen to the position they are in through murdering innocent people. That’s what makes this country so f*cked up.”
No, they have risen to the position they are in because they won a lot of votes. Ignoring taht is fucked up.
“They didn’t just decide in 2000 “Hey this place is full of Shinners, lets slap it up ‘emâ€. It’s a valid point that the incomers have to have some consideration of village traditions. You could make the same point about Glenavy, Bellaghy, Dunloy, the Garvaghy Road. They’re all places where the population has changed in recent years, and in essence the real issue is that the new majority are saying – admittedly at a susbconscious level I admit-”We are the masters nowâ€, and so hitting the orangemen’s raw nerve”
Two points. It is equally true and an equally valid argument that the people living in those villages have to react to new people coming in with different feelings on the parades. The answer that gives a sensible solution is dialogue and compromise, but, er those have been things that the OO have been spectacularly bad at.
Second, the OO is a distasteful organisation for a lot of people because of it’s history and fundamentally anti-Catholic nature. So 40 old men marching down the street can, indeed, annoy people because of what they represent. Dialogue over particular parades doesn’t address some of the deeper causes. That’s the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about, and the only way of really fixing the problem.