And ursine mammals do indeed defecate in forested areas.
The Irish Times yesterday, via PA, had some of the reported findings of the BBC’s State of Mind survey [who will think of the children? - Ed] and the BBC follow up today with quotes from the report’s author, Professor Paul Connolly – “The key message emerging from our research is that many Catholic and Protestant children here still tend to live parallel and separate lives”. The findings shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone paying attention. And no, I don’t entirely agree with what he has to say
“One way of doing this is to encourage children’s sense of being Protestant or Catholic alongside also helping them to recognize that they are all part of a wider and shared identity as Northern Irish.”
Those stats the Irish Times noted
The survey revealed:
Over four fifths of Protestant children (84%) believed Belfast was the capital of their country compared to 39% of Catholics. Under half of Catholic children (47%) said Dublin was their capital compared to just 4% of Protestants.
Catholic children (51%) were five times more likely to see themselves as Irish compared to Protestant children (10%). Protestant children were nearly four times more likely to see themselves as British (58%) compared to Catholic children (15%).
However when children were asked if they were Northern Irish, there were roughly similar results — 53% of Catholics said they were and 49% of Protestants.
It’s been asked before, “a triumph of top-down politics”?
I see ,camoflage the taigs so they dont get stoned.
I see religious and civil freedoms remain important for all but taigs and their enforce indocrination.
I suppose that women who get raped for wearing skimpy skirts deserve it and should wear longer skirts.
The victims are wrong ,the perpetrators ,well no problems really…dont need to do anything bout them.
I can see two unfortunates who could have done with the morals/values of a ccms school…we clearly were indocrinated with sterner stuff than religion….buts that just my stoopid view!
DO,
CCMS is now accounts for 50% of the pupils eduacated in NI…ie its the mainstream…the controlled sector is now the exception to the mainstream.
Why does the same system not cause problems in the rest of the UK,Australia/US/Canada etc.
Why don’t protestants go to CCMS schools…what do you think happens in these schools?
I can understand the clergy wanting their schools for religious reasons. How much of the parent’s choice is based on the desire for their children to receive the religious component and how much is for other reasons ?
the whole deal Cruimh
I mean tradition (I went to the same school,so did me da),sport,education,education,education,oh yeah and religion comes way down the list.
“Why does the same system not cause problems in the rest of the UK,Australia/US/Canada etc.
”
Exactly what the taching orders aid 25 years ago. How little time and thinking has moved, as their product now mouths the same vacuous non-arguments in their stead.
The same (logical) answer perists: the UK Aus Canada are not divided societies split along coincidental political religious ethnic national economic faultlines.
“Give me the seven year old – Ill give you the man/woman.” (Unquote)
I’ll refrain from commenting about what else was done with the seven year olds.
Matt,
With respect, WTF are you talking about? Did you actually read those posts by I Wonder and me?
What sort of labyrinthine reasoning leads from the dangers of sectarian education to those of miniskirts?
And why do you imagine I was bashing “taigs” as you call them? Those kids are not Catholic or Protestant. They’re blameless innocent children. Or they should be if their busybody parents are more interested in foisting their religion of them than they are with helping them cope with the world.
As I wonder reminds us in his last post, the Jesuital—oh soz, the taigs again—maxim of “Give me the seven year old – Ill give you the man” is still endemic in this society. Are you someone else who’s not concerned that, unchecked, it could persist another 1000 years?
It is always a bit worrying when other people tell us how we should bring up our kids. There is either a feeling of guilt that you are not doing the “right” thing or indeed immediate rejection of this “interference” or something in the middle.
I think teaching children to be proud of their own heritage is actually important and I see no reason to be ashamed of my unionist / British / Ulster culture.
I have small children, too small for this to be terribly relevant at the moment. However, I do intend in the future to teach them their heritage and culture. This is entiely positive. What would not be right is to teach them that Irish / catholic heritage culture etc. is inferior wrong or anything other than different.
I have no problem teaching children to be Northern irish but to teach them a completely white washed pseudo togtherness culture would be the worst of all worlds. Children are extremely good at seeing through nonsense and dishonesty by grown ups.
As to seperate schooling, our child is to go to reception next year. He is going to a state school. I have no problem that this is predominantly protestant. I will not apologise for this, nor to I think anyone should apologise for sending children to catholic or integrated schools.
I will admit that to me the most immoral thing would be not to teach my children our religious faith (we are already doing so). I am sorry if this offends some but I make no apology at all for that, this will antagonise some but it is our belief that that is our absolute duty. Anyone can laugh at this all they like but we believe that their immortal souls are of greater value than anything else and believe that we must do this. I suspect that large numbers of catholic parents have a similar attitude and I entirely respect this.
This nonsense about religion being the cause of all evil is trotted out one this one regularly. Yes many, many many people have been murdered by religious zealots and many by those using religion as a cloak for evil. Yes and many by non religious or even anti religious doctribes such as Nazism, Maoism, Stalinism, the French revolution etc. etc. That Stalinism was anti religious does not make atheism murderous and the counter argument is equally fallicious.
But they grow up, and they learn. And the number of them voting for younger, greener Nationalist parties increases inexorably.
That’s one interpretation of this particular set of Data, but remember that other data looking at adult attitudes, such as NILT, shows that a significant part of the population state Northern Irish as their primary identity, and that a higher proportion of Catholics than Protestants do so.
There are all sorts of reasons why Sinn Féin’s vote has grown among the young that are not inconsistent with many of those same young people seeing themselves primarily as Northern Irish, e.g.:
a. believing that the last number of elections have represented electing representatives to negotiate a final settlement, and believing that SF were likely to negotiate the best settlement for ‘our lot’;
b. SF are active and effective on the ground;
c. SF are active and competent in the media;
d. they approve of SF’s stance on non-constitutional matters (scepticism re the police, Orange marches, ‘stand up to the Orangies’, pro-gay and women’s rights, economically left-wing, etc.)
As you rightly say, identity is complex, so is voting behaviour…
@Pól
“I too eat tayto, watch bbc, utv and even buy the Irish news. I have even been known to read articles from the newsletter online.
I therefore must have a northern Irish identity.
The only problem is I was born in Meath!!!
Can I still be in the club?”
-
You’re obviously unaware that Tayto in NI is an illegally partitioned crispmanufacturerlet. Though actually as in soccer it’s more the other way around.
Turgon,
“I will admit that to me the most immoral thing would be not to teach my children our religious faith (we are already doing so). I am sorry if this offends some but I make no apology at all for that, this will antagonise some but it is our belief that that is our absolute duty.”
Why is this? Are you concerned that when your kids are old enough to decide for themselves which faith to embrace, they won’t embrace yours? Surely if your faith is the “right” one, it need not be indoctrinated but will prove itself the best.
@Mark Dowling
“It is the default assumption that’s so troubling – and I think it would trouble Casement, Emmet, Parnell and all the other Protestants who strove for the cause of Irish nationalism. I’m sure there are many Catholics loyal to the Crown too – and many more loyal to the fiscal transfers from London.”
Frankly and honestly I think that Casement, Emmet and Parnell were about as much of the same ethnicity as “Ulster Prods” as English Catholics were of the same ethnicity as the Catholic Irish. Sure there are people in the Republic who are of that ethnicity in the border counties but the background of other southern Protestants gives them a very different historical experience to that of the Protestants in Northern Ireland, even if they are unionists.
@Pól
“Everyone on the entire island has alot more in common with each other than they have with people in Britain. (furthermore let me say people in Ireland and the British Isles have a lot more in common than Ireland and anywhere else).”
Wrong. I’ve lived in both England and (more briefly) the Republic of Ireland. How many English people know what a bendy bully is compared to southern Irish people who know what a bendy bully is?
Norman Tebbit has his cricket test, I have my bendy bully test.
I agree with all that Sammy.
One observation I would make about changing identities is that suppression and oppression of an identity tends to harden it.
With the new dispensation, I expect political identities to loosen from Orange/Green, and realign on identities common elsewhere. Left, right, liberal etc.
If and when they do, I expect the 1922 border to become increasingly anachronistic. And I hope and expect an Ulster Irish cultural and regional identity to flower.
I mean, Paisley’s half way there already
@Matt
“Parents will send their kids were they are SAFE,and will get the best education.
CCMS schools now account for over 50% of NI’s school children…therefore are you saying that over 50% of parents are thought less off?”
No they don’t and in fact at no point have they ever done so, even when Catholic community background children were the majority of a given year group, which they haven’t since about 1992. I have looked at the relevant figures closely. Disagree with me? Then produce your evidence.
@Dawkins
“I’ll put it more simply: what differentiates Protestant and Catholic children? Duh, religion, stoopid.
Take away that enforced religion and what do you get? Kids. Oh yes, they’ll be encumbered by the usual torments of childhood, but one they’ll be spared is sectarianism.”
So do you think that Andre Shoukri is a big Martin Luther fan? Do you think that he even knows who he is?
matt – will you feel better if I admit to feeling just as uneasy about Free Presbyterian Schools ?
@Diluted Orange
“A comparison could also be made in the fact that survey after survey has shown that, on average, people in Northern Ireland are more racist than the rest of the U.K. This may not sit comfortably with many people but surely these findings are not surprising if one considers that the ethnic make-up of NI is almost exclusively white. Ethnic minorities only amount to a minute percentage of the NI population when compared to most areas in Britain. So surely it stands to reason that people in NI will be more likely to harbour racist views than British people if they are more likely never to have encountered or befriended a person from another race than British people.”
I would not be at all surprised if the people of Bosnia were more racist than their neighbouring Italians. They have suffered much more from the consequences of ethnic division. Once bitten twice shy as they say.
Hunter,
“So do you think that Andre Shoukri is a big Martin Luther fan?”
I wouldn’t know. Who gave him his religion, together with all its bigoted baggage? And why?
I live in Belfast and I have no idea what a ‘bendy bully’ is. What is this test testing?
Hunter, read this an weep.
http://www.deni.gov.uk/pupil_religion_series-3.xls
The proportion of schoolchildren who are deemed to be “roman catholic” has been holding steady at slightly over 50% of the total.
The proportion deemed to be “protestant” has been consistantly falling.
Ach Páid, I’m just agreeing with you all the time. You’re no fun!
Fraggle – that data also shows that ethnic minorities (non christian religion) are 3 times as likely to be in a state school than a catholic school. Also shows that the catholic percentage is dropping in the youngest age brackets – as is protestant. In other words the huns and the taigs are slowly being out-bred by the “Northern Irish”.
I can’t understand why Catholics would be against integrated education as it is at this stage their best bet for a speeded-up UI. It has always been in the interests of Unionists to keep the two camps entirely separate and hostile to each other. The longer the divisions are fomented and secured, the more permanent they become. It doesn’t necessarily strengthen the union but it makes the nationalists’ objective ever more difficult. The only way a UI will ever be achieved is through consent, and that was as obvious in 1927 as it is in 2007. Yet it seems as far away as ever, despite what demographic shifts might lead people to believe. Does anyone really think that the ’50% & 1′ argument is a realistic future for NI?