A union of convenience…
BLAMING the Brits for Northern Ireland’s problems, teaming up with overseas separatists for mutual benefit, trying to pry Westminster’s fingers out of its claim on our taxes – no it’s not Gerry Adams, it’s Ian Paisley. The other day I asked if Paisley was a British Unionist or an Ulster Nationalist. Last night on Hearts & Minds Newtown Emerson answered: Ulster Nationalist. He said: “His unionism derives not from Ulster’s British identity but from its Protestant, or more specifically Presbyterian, character – and that’s where the confusion sets in, because there is a fault line through Ulster’s Protestant character, running right back to its separate English and Scottish origins… Paisley’s very Scottish anti-Britishness shows that the ancient fault line is still there and still clearly capable of shifting – although if Paisley really is, as the English say, “going native”, then it is still only as a native Ulsterman rather than as a native Irishman”.
Very interesting piece by Newton last night. Suffice to say, things are not as they seem in unionism. They were united once by their desire for control, they by their hatred of republicans. Now that the first of these is gone and the second is reducigng anything can happen going forward.
Anyone who says they know which way things are moving is a fool.
Big Ian has himself said: “you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman”.
The Anglo tendency in Unionism expressed through the uup is dead.
This is a massively important historical change.
What is surprising as well is that the UUP have yet to pull him up on it – why are they not pointing out his Ulster nationalism which totally contradicts Unionism (as pointed out many times by David Vance)
Maybe Paisley’s approach suggests old Desmond Greaves was onto something (with due allowance for the language of ‘discovering Irishness’ etc):
Lad lad lads…
Its all very simple, its not what they wanna be but what they don’t wanna be that matters.
The vast majority of yer ulster nationalists, unionists and that related ilk know what they don’t want to be and thats part of the Irish Republic. Poll after poll…after poll….after poll…after poll…after poll has shown it.
No amount of of intellectual positioning is going to get round it.
No sale.
I agree dub.
There are definitely interesting times ahead. The signs look good so far.
Yokel,
Any spiritual person will tell you that what you not want to be is absolutely irrelevant.. by definition those negative thoughts come from reactivity to other people’s perceived thoughts.. it is not YOU… what is YOU is what you actually want…
One of the many changes Paisley had made is he is saying what he wants.. a successful economy modelled on that of the South, the British to pay compensation for their woeful lack of investment, he wants the “squatters” (the direct rulers) to leave, he wants an Ireland without hedges, he wants a fruitful relatioship with the Dublin govt based on mutual respect, and he uses the word “Ireland” rather a lot, he also says he prefers watching rte to bbc…
He is acting and not reacting. And he is therefore saying very interesting things as people always do when they are acting and not reacting.
Greaves was right in the sense that a lot of traditional unionism was highly reactive. how many of us have heard unionists say things in private that they would never say publicly. Paisley is now saying those things publicly.
But will nationalists respond to the ‘ulster nationalist’ challenge of making partition work?
they will make the institutions work yes absolutely.
SRR,
don’t forget (I won’t let you
) that in 1922 both Ulster and Ireland were partitioned.
If you are talking about Ulster then you lose the Unionist majority, but you gain cultural and historical authenticity as a foundation for regional government.
A region of where exactly is, for the medium term, disagreed.
A number of us have previously commented on Paisley’s unFinchleyness. For example I wrote on 21 March here on Slugger…
“Ian Paisley is a genuine living link to the Plantation, and the clash of cultures and values contained therein.
Always struck me as fundamentally Irish in a way most modern Unionists are not.”
I’m beginning to believe Mick’s propaganda about this site.
Perhaps, Paisley’s perceptible Irishness is more of a reflection of those of his generation and his socio-economic background, whose rejection of any Irish identity is a relatively recent development. He was after all born only a few years after partition.
páid: If you are talking about Ulster then you lose the Unionist majority, but you gain cultural and historical authenticity as a foundation for regional government.
There’s no such thing as ‘historical authenticity’ in this context. Whatever your feelings about the plantation, it wrecked the continuity of Ulster identity (at least, looking from Bangor, it did). As for ‘cultural authenticity’ – well, what does that actually look like? Do you mean the accents?
I did not see the programme but do not worry this is not a rant against something I did not see.
Emerson’s analysis is interesting but I think basing this on religious demonination is too simplistic.
I have no objective data (I am unsure if any exists) but this demoninational analysis seems to be that CoI vote UUP and Presbyterians vote DUP.
The following analysis of my own is also too simplistic I am sure but for what it is worth (probably not much) here it is. Amongst practicing Protestants (a minority, though a large one) I would submit there are actually four groups.
The CoI who are percieved as more politically liberal. This is unclear. It is the group I know least about but most CoI people I know are politically about where the presbyterian church are. Originally many (most?) probably voted UUP but now probably vote DUP. Remember large numbers of working class practicing prods are CoI. One should not confuse the political position of church leaders with that of their members. Also CoI is a stronger denomination in the west of ther provience (something I will touch on in a moment).
The Methodist church has traditionally been identified as the most politically liberal but again its distribution is similar to the CoI (both being originally one and both I guess English settlement).
The Presbyterian Church (of which I am a member) was once called the UUP at prayer (a pirate of the CoE being the Tory party at prayer). Most presbyterians probably did vote UUP (except in North Antrim), they certainly did in Co. Londonderry where I was brought up. Most I would submit now vote DUP and have done so for a fair while (John Dunlop has lamented this on occassion).
There are then the smaller evangelical demoninations (of which my dear Elenwe (Turgon’s wife) was one till I turned her). They are traditionally regarded as DUP to the core. Again this is a misunderstanding. The Free Presbyrterians may well be but the other groups are more variable. Some of the small house church group types would be Alliance or would not vote. The Brethern are an interesting group. In Co. Londonderry and Antrim they often claim a born again Christian should not vote, whereas Brethern friends I have from Fermanagh and Tyrone would be solid DUP. I would suggest that like the CoI and Methodists in the greater Belfast and other “safe” areas they would be UUP or Alliance with a harder line being taken with greater Protestant cohesion in the border areas.
It will be interesting to see what happens with these voting patterns. I do suspect that Paisley’s support of the latest deal will loose him support amongst hardline evangelical groups first if indeed (as I hope) it does loose him support.
To anyone who wants to critise this analysis that is fine. I have been moving in church circles (especially Presbyerian and smaller evangelical demominations for years) but that does not make me the font of all knowledge. Still for what it is worth there is my view.
turgon,
that would be the presbyterian church in ireland that you are a member of… i thought you did not have even one iota of irishness about you. maybe they should change their name!
Dub,
its IN Ireland not of Ireland. I accept that this land mass is Ireland . I just do not regard myself as Irish. And as I have said before Elenwe and myself are probably leaving the Presbyterian Church soon anyway.
Pol,
It’s because the UUP are also Ulster Nationalists at heart. They and the DUP have, in my view, gradually morphed into this strange creature which feigns Britishness at the same time as it embraces an other-ness, a thing apart.
It was interesting to hear Newton run his own variation on what I said on the same programme two weeks previously. My take is that augurs the death of unionism, others can argue for themselves!
turgon,
how can you be born and bred into a family who were presumably born and bred in Ireland and not see yourself as Irish?
as i said to you on a post before of course you entitled to see yourself as whatever you want but i mean how can you value and love the place you come from if you regard yourself as somehow being above it? surely it is good to value and love the glens and fields and valleys and townlands, parishes and baronies around you and all that has gone before in them? this does not mean being an irish nationalit…that’s a political viewpoint but not to see yourself as being of Ireland must surely mean to be uncomfortable in Ireland?
just sad for you Turgon and can’t help feeling that if you got around Ireland more and met more Irish Protestants and Catholics you might feel a little more Itish. i would bet you a large sum of money that if somebody told your grandparents they were not Irish they would just have laughed… (i’m assuming you are of Irish stock)… how can you be a different nationality from your grandparents?
why not read the memoirs of Carson, Craig and Andrews or look at the photos of the banners the Ulster Unionists used in the early 20th century with “Erin go Bragh” on them? believe me all this anti irishness is a very recent thing among northern protestants… or read Brian Inglis’ book on Casement where he contends that northern protestants did not even see themselves as British they were most resolutely loyal irishmen… i just think you are literally hacking off your own cultural roots and cant help thinking how Carson for one would have wept to see the results of his actions (though of course he disowned partition when it came about…)
Enjoy your weekend.
Dub – Ireland and Irish have as many meanings as America and American.
Dub – Ireland and Irish have as many meanings as America and American.
Posted by Cruimh on Jun 15, 2007 @ 10:17 PM
Explain?
Canada – USA. In most peoples minds American means USA – Canadaians might be Americans strictly speaking as in the land mass – but they don’t regard themselves as “American” in that sense.
Look at de valera’s widely quoted speach about Ireland – If Ireland IS a catholic Nation, hen obviously NI is not part of Ireland in that sense.
Cruimh,
Agreed! Thst is why i not understand people like Turgon who do not regard themselves as Irish at all. of course there is no monlithic irishness… that is its strength and why for example the republic is such a formidably cohesive and happy state because all agree they are irish as a common denominator… from the Chuch of ireland organist to the irish speaking gaa fan, to the resolutely english speaking dub who regards gaa fans as some kind of genetic aberration.. all the way to Lord Henry Mountcharles. This is what the north has lost.
Dub – is it what the north “has lost”? I think it would be better to say it never existed. It has come about in the ROI in part I suspect because the protestants left were not seen as any threat to the free state or republic – but would it have come about if there had been a 20+% hostile protestant minority? We’ll never know.
sorry that canada analogy is absurd…canada is a sovereign independent state with its own cultural institutions…. ni is not… it was carved out of the kingdom of ireland as a reaction to the majority of the population wielding their democratic rights… the divorce was not done on grounds of separate nationality.. at that time the unionists regarded themselves to a man and woman as Irish. many institutions of importance from the orange order to the gaa to all the churches, most sports remain all ireland bodies. many many northern protestants still regard themselves as irish to varying degrees and would do more openly i believe if there were not a fear factor around doing so. and there is the large nationalist community and ni is not sovereign or independent so a huge host of differences with Canada don’t you think?
Believe me the one thing that loses unionists like Turgon ALL credibility in Britain especially and other countries is when they open their mouths and speak in a clear irish accent with little sayings directly translated from Irish like “so I am” at the end of sentence and “i’m only after doing such and such” and then they say they are not irish. this is the ultimate irish joke for british people who actually live in Britain.
NI is not under Dublin jurisdiction and is even more culturally different from the ROI than Canada is from the USA.
“the divorce was not done on grounds of separate nationality.. at that time the unionists regarded themselves to a man and woman as Irish. ”
that is simply untrue. You need to go back before the devotional revolution and the rise of cultural nationalism which clearly stated that Irish = Gaelic and Catholic. As I said, Irish and Ireland has layers of meaning in the same way as America and American has layers of meaning.
yes it IS something the north has lost…protestants in the north once had a very very strong irish identity and played their full part in national life. protestants in late 18th century belfast single handedly rescued a very important pary of irish culture with the harpers festival… they did this to promote their idea of a modern assertive Ireland. you miss my point about the republic… there are many shades of irishness across all creeds and communities. the protestant/catholic divide is simply non esistent in a politically determining sense. the middle class blackrock boy who plays rugby is as irish as the kilkenny boy who plays hurling.. they are very different people but they are both irish. trevor sargent is an ardent green who speaks irish fluently whereas seymour crawford is a county monaghan farmer not known for eating muesli for breakfast..yet both are equally irish.
you see i never mentioned the religion of the las two, guess why… it’s not relevant.
i have met many many nothern protestants who see themeelves as irish… i have been in a pub in county derry where irish happy hour is on the wall, big farming types are sitting at the bar supping pints of guineess and reading the newsletter and somebody in the pub is singing the fields of athenry… and i have rarely seen a more irish atmosphere and yet apparently nearly all the customers were protestants. it is there in the north still especially in rural areas… plain simple non political cross community irishness. you can’t wish away a centuries old reality.
Yes, yes, but back to this challenge to nationalists to make partition work.
That is the concluding point of the piece.
Nationalists here can’t seem to get beyond some really rather gleeful sneering at the unionist identity.
Isn’t that the exact opposite of the behaviour Paisley’s opportunity for nationalism requires?
Sorry dub -we are talking at cross purposes – I thought you were talking about the 20th century.
Dub,
I have worked in the south of England and briefly in Africa. I am afraid no one seemed to regard me saying I did not regard myself as irish as odd. They just seemed to accept it and move on with liking or disliking me as they felt fit. I seem to really annoy you by saying i do not feel Irish. Why does it annoy you? If it does not just get over it.
And – there’s no such place as county Derry .
There is a county Lndonderry
I also have never experienced any problem or even raised eyebrow in England or elsewhere when describing myself as British, which I always do.
Nor do I feel the need when elsewhere to crave popularity on the basis of my nationality. I find all attempts to crave popularity embarrassing – is this a Presbyterian thing, perhaps?
See Gaskin’s latest drivel for a truly embarrassing example of the international republican need to be loved.
Dub,
“i would bet you a large sum of money that if somebody told your grandparents they were not Irish they would just have laughed… (i’m assuming you are of Irish stock)… how can you be a different nationality from your grandparents?”
You really do not understand evangelical Ulster Protestants do you? We do not do betting.
“how can you be a different nationality from your grandparents?”
So, Gerry and Martin are Scottish – as their grandarents grandparents grandparents were Scottish with names such as Adams and McGuinness ?
Shore Road Resident,
Do not worry, this presbyterian makes no attempt to crave popularity. The craving of popularity thing is interesting. The Irish always report that they are beloved throughout the world, have no enemies etc. I have only been in a few African countries (all ex British colonies as it happens), the people there seemed completely unconcerned that I regarded myself as British. Quite a lot of them did not know where Ireland was or anything about it.
Cruimh,
You beat me to it and said it more elegantly than I could have.
you mean the cultural revolution lead by those well known catholics Yeats and Lady Gregory, George A.E. Russell…John Millington Synge, William Orpen, John Lavery, Paul Henry and that well known Catholic founder of the modern Ira in Belfast Bulmer Hobson and his colleaue Denis McCullough. Casement of course too and Jack White, Francis Biggar… yes they all said you had to be Catholic to be Irish didn’t they??
Check out J.M. Andrews’ tribute to Craig (James Edward) on his death… “A great Ulsterman and a great Irishman”.
Thank god you have a leader of Paisley’s vintage who is aware of all these things… your unionist generation does not even know its own history.
Slan.
Dub,
“Thank god you have a leader of Paisley’s vintage who is aware of all these things… your unionist generation does not even know its own history.”
He stopped being my leader a few months ago for reasons I think you can probably work out.
Goodnight
Turgon – it’s something our nationalist friends have to accept – they don’t have the right to force their identity onto us. Identity is a complex thing. It’s not just a question of where you are born – otherwise de Valera and Pat Doherty would be disqualified from being Irish.
The ROI is slowly moving away from the shackles of 19th century nationalism which EXCLUDED our people. That’s great. Hope for the future. But they have to relise that the Irish are a multi-faceted hybrid collection. One size does not fit all – and they cannot expect us to assume their identity. They may not like what we are – bu hey have no business telling us we can no longer be what we are and have to become what they will allow us. The free state tried that social engineering and failed miserably. And it’s strengths these days are because it abandoned all that inward looking parochial protectionist malarkey – and it owes a lot of that down to outside influences – such as Whitaker’s education in London.
Dub – we can go through that list – Jack White ?
Hospitalised by Sean MacBride’s IRA thugs …..
yes, there were a few protestants involved – hell there were two RCs in Larne convicted of UDA membership
cruimh,
i agree with the vast majority of what you are saying.. of course irishness is multifacted consists of differing political allegiances and many many other things… i am not trying to shove roi irishness (which is itself very disparate) onto anyone. having been in ni a lot and spent all last summer there i was struck by the fact that you guys have a chance at another nationbuilding exercise…ni has things that roi does not have… and i value those things… 2 states on this ialand does not bother me at all.. although without the hedge! i just find it frankly incredible when people like Turgon deny they are Irish at all… and i was using my own personal experiences and historial anecdotes to point out that even in the unionist community this attitude is 1. of fairly recent provenance and 2. not at all shared by many of the plain protestant people who (no disrespect) go places like the pub and the bookies (ie they do not in general say they are not at all irish).
turgon sounds like a nice chap and of course he can be liked irrespective of his views on nationality. i just wish for his sake he could learn to like the country he was born in or the region or the part of the country he was born in or if you believe northern ireland is a country i wish he could learn to identity with the non directionally adjectival bit of that country’s name. how can a settler mentality be helpful? the great unionist statesmen of the past certainly did not have it.
Dub, Sir John Lavery was in fact a Catholic. See Oxford DNB. He was though an Ulsterman and did however have a lot of Protestant relations. They are…shall we say, connections of mine.
“i just find it frankly incredible when people like Turgon deny they are Irish at all” – Dub
You can’t use rational argument to alter that which is formed independently of rational argument. A sense of nationality is formed by emotion, not logic. He doesn’t feel Irish – and that’s how it is. I might convince you that there are better parents than yours, but can I convince you to swap your parents for the better examples? Nope, because the core dynamic is emotion, not reason.
Instead of trying to convince people to feel that they are feel Irish, why not accept that people can feel British within Ireland? The ‘enforcement’ of an alien sense of national identity is a very real fear for those to whom it is alien. It’s also, self-defeatingly, a very convincing argument for separatism. When Irish unity becomes a realistic prospect (a few decades hence), Ireland will have numerous distinct ethnic groups, e.g. Polish-Irish, Chinese-Irish, African-Irish, etc. At that point – if the unity numbers add up – the Unionist community will just be one of many separate identities under the flag. I don’t think Irish dancing or conversion to ‘Popery’ will be mandatory at any point, do you?
Amazing – I go off to watch a ghastly teen movie about a giant squid alien taking over a high school – with that weird looking hobbit actor – and I come back to find people agreeing with each ther and being reasonable!
It won’t last LOL
The Dubliner,
Emotional intelligence is a much-prized quality these days, and you have it in spades.
Reader,
“Whatever your feelings about the plantation, it wrecked the continuity of Ulster identity (at least, looking from Bangor, it did).”
I see where you’re coming from! But when I see Tyrone GAA upporters in action I think of Churchill’s remark about the dreary steeples.
Did the plantation wreck Ulster’s identity?
Big question reader, I hope you’ll agree.
McKelvey, as for your post. IMO, it shows how quality defeats quantity in the words dept.
Cruimh,
“but would it have come about if there had been a 20+% hostile protestant minority?”
You can take it from me that the Southern poliburo’s views on partition are as follows
1. Partition was wrong.
2. Partition was inevitable.
3. We shouldn’t need the majority of a gerrymandered state to get rid of partition.
4. We will need the majority of a gerrymandered state to get rid of partition.
5. In the meantime, violence is completely counterproductive, we’ll all be dead by the time of any UI, so let’s try and get along in the meantime.
Martin Mansergh, who has worked it all out, would state as much in a 3 hour speech, but you get the drift
I’m still dealing with the giant squid thing – that at one point was walking around as a naked and nubile teenager páid. JB Murray would have been proud of me!
Identity is indeed a complex thing that is entirely based upon ones emotional attatchment rather than geography or any political or social engineering. I cannot deny that I was born on an island called “Great Britain”, part of a state called “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”, in a “county” called “Greater London” and a borough called “The London Borough of Enfield” but my emotional attatchments are to England, Middlesex and Edmonton despite the fact that all three have not existed as functioning political entities during my lifetime. To me Enfield is another town in Middlesex, not a part of my own “borough”. Croydon is a town in Surrey, not somewhere else in my “city” and Scotland is another country, not the northern part of my own one. I don’t dislike any of these places (except Croydon maybe? -)) I just don’t feel “of them”.
dub
ni is not… it was carved out of the kingdom of ireland as a reaction to the majority of the population wielding their democratic rights… the divorce was not done on grounds of separate nationality.. at that time the unionists regarded themselves to a man and woman as Irish.
Over-simplistic.
“Nationality” was, indeed, a large part of it. While unionists, of course, regarded themselves as Irish – and many (most?) still do – they also regarded – and still do – themselves as British. Just as the English, Scots and Welsh regarded themselves as both English, Scottish or Welsh and British.
When Irish nationalists started to define Irishness in terms of anti-Britishness, emphasising Roman Catholicism and Gaelicism, it became clear that the unionist’s identity of being Irish and British, and Irish and Protestant, was in danger.
Of course there were other factors, such as economics, but there always are in such matters.
“Just as the English, Scots and Welsh regarded themselves as both English, Scottish or Welsh and British.”
Less and less I think Willowfield – even in England where a nationality is re-emerging – which is a positive thing. Personally, I’m Welsh and European – Britain implies Wars, Conquest and Empire – days are numbered.
Dub,
I am sorry I thought about the giant squid and decided although it is quite fun nonsense, (even Elenwe liked it, maybe she fancied the hobbit) to go to bed.
I recognise that many Prods do feel irish in some fashion. I have no problem with that, its just not the way I feel.
Could I suggest that sport may have something to do with it. I have only a passing interest in sport (I will watch sport on TV but would not go to a match). My prod friends who are into sports such as rugby have a thing to be Irish about. I well remember as a student watching an Ireland rugby match in a house with several prods of equal unionism to me. Myself and one other just could not get into supporting Ireland. The others, no less unionist (but more into sport) were supporting them. It was not that I passionately wanted Ireland to loose but I just wasn’t really bothered either way.
When I watch NI playing football although not that into football either I really want them to win because I identify with the team.
In terms of literature etc I accept that there are many great Irish writers. I do not pretend to be a culture vulture but I guess I have read a little bit. I liked Pygmalion a great deal. I quite like some of Yeats. I would like to read Ulysses (I know like lots of others I won’t finish it). I like these because I do and not because they are Irish (protestant or catholic). I also like Jane Austen, Wuthering Heights and Shakesphere (not because I am either English or homosexual). I really enjoyed Paradise Lost (but eventually gave up). One of my favourite books was The Heart is a Lonely Hunter which I read for O level English lit but that does not make me a racist from the Southern USA, or a black from the southern USA.
I know you wonder how I like my local area and yet do not feel irish. Yes of course I feel part of it and yes it is the landmass of Ireland but that does not mean I feel irish.
I know some may wish me to feel irish as part of an attempt to break down my unionism. I suspect you do not. My non Irish feeling is just the way I am, it does not mean I hate the Irish or Irishness, its just not me, Sorry
I suppose an analogous situation is that everyone who lives on the continent of Europe should see themselves as European (as well as Irish or English or whichever part of Europe they live in). Many do not, especially in England where Euro-scepticism is widespread amongst the Little Englanders. This is because they are against Europe in the political sense, and are defining themselves in a defensive manner as to what they are against, as opposed to who they are. Similar to Irish Unionism?
You can’t use rational argument to alter that which is formed independently of rational argument. A sense of nationality is formed by emotion, not logic.
I agree it’s a mistake to cast the issues in terms of identity if you need to win people over, as nationalists do. There’s no point trying to tell people who they are.
Far better to put the argument in pragmatic terms: what’s the most democratic way forward for the North’s politics? What’s the most effective way forward for the North’s economy?