4,000 responses to Irish Language legislation…
The Newsletter reports up to 4,000 responses from the public to proposed legislation on the Irish langauge. In a previous round of consultation, most of it favourable, and very little from unionist objectors.
In a previous round of consultation, the department received 688 letters, 1,376 postcards and a petition signed by 2,500 people. It found 93 per cent of respondents in favour of the legislation – as unionists failed to voice opposition in any significant number.
They later report that that pattern is expected to remain the same for this latest consultation.
In the meantime, Francie Brolly has complained that although he can put oral questions to ministers within the chamber of the Assembly in Irish, the same does not apply to written questions. According to the Newsletter, “there are also not the resources to embark on such translation”.
its quite interesting to read some of the other letters in the Newsletter regarding the Irish language. The attitude seems to be that Britishness by definition excludes Irishness!
I thought it was disgusting that very young children were dragged into this as a stunt when Francie Brolly and Primary school children from Turf Lodge picketted the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6723049.stm
Any time â€The Newsletter reports†precedes an item on the Irish language, it should be taken with a measure of caution. It’s little wonder that unionists have a negative attitude to the Irish language given the misinformation peddled by the Unionst press and politicians, particularly the Newsletter.
For instance, in a report carried following the publication of the first consultation document on 13 December, the Newsletter ran a big headline over a story about the purported cost of Irish language translation in the north.
According to the Newsletter report, this was £18m!
This figure was taken from the consultation document by the reporter and relied on by the editor, Darwin Templeton, in his leader decrying the Irish Language Act campaign as too costly etc etc.
This was a deliberate misrepresentation by the Newsletter of the figures because the £18m referred to actually covered all the costs down to the Irish language in the Government estimates over the past three years.
It included, for instance, £12m spent by the Department of Education on educating schoolchildren, a sum which would have to be paid anyhow whether the children were being taught in English or in Irish.
It double counted £3m which is being provided by the UK government Exchequer directly to the Irish Language Broadcast Fund.
There were other discrepancies also in the account given by the Newsletter I never saw a correction or an attempt to balance this misreportage with a view from the Irish language community, from an organisation such as POBAL, in the Newsletter. If you want balanced reporting about the Irish Language Act campaign, with views from all sides, including Irish speakers who are against the Act, you need to get your copy of Lá Nua.
Now as then, the Newsletter has a vague grasp of the figures.
The second consultation, which was organised as an effort to give those against a second bite at the cherry, ended on Tuesday. The first consultation ended and there were over 600 detailed responses and of these, 93% were in favour. Lá Nua has reported that there were two significant lodgements of responses on Monday night and Tuesday afternoon.
On Monday night approximately 1,200 negative responses were lodged while the following day, 5,000+ positive responses were delivered to DCAL. The first figure may have been included in the Newsletter tally but the second definitely wasn’t.
This is the numbers game without a doubt but this is the avenue which has been forced upon the Irish language community in the north due to the negative soundings being emitted by the Unionist controlled media and the Unionist Parties.
David McNarry’s contribution – his allegation that this is all part of a SF plot to ‘green’ the province is risible. Should the Irish language not be part of Irish culture in this part of Ireland? Should it not be supported by the state given that Irish speakers, through their taxes, provide financial support for the state even if they don’t give it full political allegiance? This is of course the same David McNarry who during the height of Drumcree in the late 90s said that the Orange Order could bring the ‘province’ to a standstill if they wouldn’t be allowed down the Garvaghy Road. I wonder how much that intervention and what followed cost the tax payer? As far as I know, the protest at Broadcasting House didn’t stop traffic and we’re still living in a state purporting to have democratic values.
The participation of schoolchildren in the protest is commendable. Practical civics I’d call it. The Unionist/loyalist equivalent? Look no further than the pipe bombers of children at Holycross…
Got this story on Google News, quoting Slugger as the source. Address for Slugger is given as “Wimborne, Dorset, Ireland”. Now I might just have persuaded phil that he will lose Cornwall in the final shake-up, but Dorset is pushing it.
Oilibhear – should Anna Lo be able to table questions and expect answers in Chinese ? Chinese taxpayers etc etc etc
“The participation of schoolchildren in the protest is commendable. Practical civics I’d call it.”
Politicising very young children is commendable ? I’m not sure what you mean about Holy cross – are you saying that the plan is for these Turf Lodge Children to throw pipe bombs if they don’t get their way ?
Maggot
“Oilibhear – should Anna Lo be able to table questions and expect answers in Chinese ?”
Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands of years, much longer than English or Scots or Polish or Chinese.
It is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’t, and Chinese isn’t in any danger of disappearing off the face of the earth as a spoken language (though Ms Lo’s particular dialect potentially could).
“Chinese taxpayers etc etc etc”
That’s already happening in a small way – Chinese ratepayers – I’ve seen Chinese and Arabic on RCA leaflets, I’ve never seen Irish. Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?
Maggot, Chinese isn’t an indegeous language of Ulster. I’m not aware that the Gaels are demanding that China implement an Irish language. They want one in their own country were the language has been neglected for so long. And i suspect the cost of implementing the Act is only an excuse for many people objecting to it!
Maggot
“Oilibhear – should Anna Lo be able to table questions and expect answers in Chinese ? Chinese taxpayers etc etc etc”
That’s a matter for Anna Lo. As far as I know, this isn’t an issue she has picked up, so let’s not waste time on this meaningless hypothetical – especially when there’s an actual, live issue at hand. (Or would you be trying to detract from that live issue by some classic passive-aggressive mendacity?)
“Politicising very young children is commendable?”
The young children are directly affected by this issue. They may not have chosen to become a political football, but that’s the situation they find themselves in. I think it’s commendable that they would take part in promotion of the Irish language. I would want my children to grow up with a love and attachment to the Irish language. It’s an unambiguously positive thing. For Irish language enthusiasts (including the children in our naoiscoils and bunscoils) it’s about love. It’s not about hate.
What’s unionist opposition about? Is it about love?
obviously that should be where not were
Longevity of use and non-use isn’t mentioned Ulster McNulty. The point was however made about taxpayers having rights.
“Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands of years”
so the call isn’t for standardised Irish but Uladh Irish or one of the ancient Irish dialects ? That will so lease comhaltas Uladh members – if there are any still alive
BP
“What’s unionist opposition about? Is it about love?”
It’s similar but the inverse of the Orangemen’s attitude to catholicism – we don’t hate the Irish language but we hate the poor sinners who speak it.
“Maggot, Chinese isn’t an indegeous language of Ulster.”
So what ? Chinese is widely spoken by Ulster taxpayers – How racist of you to deny these people their rights!
The Traveller language is thought to be the oldest language on this island – should it also be accorded he same rights and facilities?
( whoops – naughty me – mentioning travellers – oppressed by everybody )
This is SF playing politics, shit stirring. Hundreds of thousands – if not millions – of pounds will be wasted – money that should go to schools, hospitals and social services.
Maybe it should be called Gaelic instead of Irish as it is here in Scotland/Alba. Gaelic-ness probably predates Irishness.
“So what ? Chinese is widely spoken by Ulster taxpayers – How racist of you to deny these people their rights!”
I don’t believe i am denying the Chinese their rights to a Chinese language act in the way certain members of Ulster society seem determine to deny the Gaels their rights.
The Chinese representatives are entitled to propose such a Chinese language act.
Iain
“Maybe it should be called Gaelic instead of Irish as it is here in Scotland/Alba. Gaelic-ness probably predates Irishness.”
Why not get your own name? What about “Scottish”?
“That’s already happening in a small way – Chinese ratepayers – I’ve seen Chinese and Arabic on RCA leaflets, I’ve never seen Irish. Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?”
Leaving aside your basic ignorance of language needs of minority ethnic communities. The RCA do provide information in Irish.
http://www.lpsni.gov.uk/irish_translation-3.htm
http://www.lpsni.gov.uk/information_about_your_rate_bill.pdf
Billy – how many six year olds will follow question and answers from the Assembly, let alone follow then in Irish ?
For myself, I’d be quite happy to see more money set aside for Irish language education in schools and for adult education – where it might actually acheive something useful.
Iain – the Gaelic vs Irish takes you into very dangerous waters. When Standardised Irish was invented the Ulster dialect was largely excluded because …. it is contaminated by Scottish.
“The Unionist/loyalist equivalent? Look no further than the pipe bombers of children at Holycross…”
Almost made it to the end with no sweeping generalisation and demonisation of the Unionist community.
“the Gaelic vs Irish takes you into very dangerous waters. When Standardised Irish was invented the Ulster dialect was largely excluded because …. it is contaminated by Scottish”
Presumably Donegal Irish (this would be strictly speaking Ulster Irish too) will be likewise ‘contaminated’ by Scottish yet it seems to be tolerated by the irish. in fact, they even refer to it as Irish. i’m not aware of any form of Irish that would be indigenous to Northern Ireland (geographically) still existing, though you can correct me on this.
Paying for translators etc. in Stormont is a waste of money – aren’t we supposed to be reducing our dependency on the public sector, not increasing it.
Instead the funding should go into capital projects – boosting the Gaelic Quarter so it might attract some visitors, and create a centre of excellence so that those rich Southerners will come to study the language here.
Spending the money translating car tax leaflets, road signs and assembly questions is misdirected political nonsense and will do the language far less favours than a thriving Gaelic Quarter or college.
Same goes for Ulster Scots btw.
Unionist
“It’s similar but the inverse of the Orangemen’s attitude to catholicism – we don’t hate the Irish language but we hate the poor sinners who speak it.”
Very good! I would suggest though, that the strategy for unionists should be to get involved with the Irish language. If you perceive it to be a republican thing, get involved and pollute the republican purity of it! The Shinners would have kittens!
“how many six year olds will follow question and answers from the Assembly, let alone follow then in Irish?”
What’s that got to do with anything? You think “politics” is something that happens on TV, or that happens in one big room up at Stormont? Politics is happening all around us, all the time. Political debates and decisions affect our lives every day – not least when it comes to education. Even six-year-olds understand that.
“For myself, I’d be quite happy to see more money set aside for Irish language education in schools and for adult education – where it might actually acheive something useful.”
Good for you! I’m somewhat surprised to hear you say that though – you come across quite differently.
“the Gaelic vs Irish takes you into very dangerous waters. When Standardised Irish was invented the Ulster dialect was largely excluded because …. it is contaminated by Scottish.”
Hang on a sec. I recognise you. You don’t by any chance go by a couple of other names, do you Maggot? (Initials MR, DofS and ME, by any chance?)
Because there’s only one person on this island who plays that old “standardised Irish” canard, but by God he plays it often. (Regardless of how many times his assumptions and skewed history are demonstrated to be bogus.)
If that’s you, good to see you, you old so-and-so! If not, I know someone you’d get on famously with!
DK
Have to say I’d largely agree with that. The future for the Irish language is to make it sexy. (As has happened down south.) Translating civil service documents and car tax stickers is worthy but boring.
Iain – do you realise that there is such a thing as “standardised Irish” and that there is resentment that it is in danger of destroying the Ulster Gaelic ?
e.g. from the letters page of the Irish news in January 2004, by Sean O Cearnaigh, Belfast
” the Dublin government adopted the Munster dialect as a substitute for the spoken tongue in the rest of the country.
This is easily proved, especially in the case of
Ulster Irish.
The latter was always under pressure from the south from the foundation of the Gaelic League in 1893.
In the end, Ulster was forced to set up its own defence council in 1924, in the form of Comhaltas Uladh, which from then on led the fight for the survival of Irish in Ulster until it finally capitulated in 1948.”
In fact all is NOT rosy in the Donegal Gaeltacht -some people are unhappy at the damage being done to their dialect.
“Good for you! I’m somewhat surprised to hear you say that though – you come across quite differently.”
Thats because your preconceptions prevent you seeing what I’m getting at – he’s unionist, he must be anti-Irish. As it happens I’m listening to some Irish language as I write.
I’ve only posted here as Maggot – discovered the place, lurked a few weeks and bit the bullet. sorry!
Maggot
“That’s because your preconceptions prevent you seeing what I’m getting at – he’s unionist, he must be anti-Irish.”
Ah, now you’re preconceptions are coming to the fore!
“As it happens I’m listening to some Irish language as I write.”
Maith go leor!
“I’ve only posted here as Maggot – discovered the place, lurked a few weeks and bit the bullet. sorry!”
Ah, I could’ve sworn you were someone else!
fair_deal
“Leaving aside your basic ignorance of language needs of minority ethnic communities. The RCA do provide information in Irish.”
Leaving aside your complete ignorance of my knowledge of language needs of minority ethnic communities – thanks for linking to the RCA info. I wasn’t aware they published info in irish, I’ve never visited their website. I was going on a leaflet they delivered with my rates bill – it had Chinese and Arabic, no Irish or Ulster Scots.
All’s good, you learn something everday. Maybe someday you’ll even learn something that would actually qualify you to speak about my level of knowledge of language needs of minority ethnic communities.
Maggot
“the Gaelic vs Irish takes you into very dangerous waters. When Standardised Irish was invented the Ulster dialect was largely excluded because …. it is contaminated by Scottishâ€
Get your facts straight buddy. Scots gaelic and all the Irish dialects spoken on the island come from “old Irish”.
When it was brought to scotland it was isolated from the rest of ireland and developed differently. the same with all of the dialects on the island. The same with all the english spoken in england. you speak of the ulster dialect as tho its a different language but its not. Exactly the way liverpudlian, london accents/ dialects etc are different but they al stem from english – am i right. We dont have a liverpudlian dictionary a london dictionary etc.. for every english dialect. We have a standardised one exactly the same for Irish. When it was standardised not just the munster dialect was taken but also the connacht. The donegal strand was not used as much as the others tho.
UM
When a comment displays no knowledge rather ignorance of a topic it would be rather strange to reach the conclusion the person possesses knowledge but has chosen to hid it behind ignorance.
what a load of crap , the REAL irish dont even speak this dead language. THEY SPEAK ENGLISH!! the language of Corrie and Eastenders!!!
there is no cross community support for this so no irish language act …. welcome to the UK lads
scary eire – that’s not what I read in the Irish News.
If the shinners had the courage of their convictions wouldn’t their meetings and literature – all of it – be in Irish ?
Maggot,
“I’ve only posted here as Maggot – discovered the place, lurked a few weeks and bit the bullet. sorry!”
I could have sworn you were Davros. But then again you may be Maggot, who by pure chance is repeating all the opinions of the long departed Davros.
f_d
“When a comment displays no knowledge rather ignorance of a topic it would be rather strange to reach the conclusion the person possesses knowledge but has chosen to hid it behind ignorance.”
I realise that it is impossible for you to demonstrate how my original comment displays “basic ignorance of language needs of minority ethnic communities”?
So, I’m not going to ask you to demonstrate it because I know you won’t post an answer, or if you do it will be evasive. That’s the way it goes on slugger when someone like yourself gets it so obviously wrong.
Oh what the hell, go on f_d, explain how my comment displays “basic ignorance of language needs of minority ethnic communities”?
UM
“Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands of years, much longer than English or Scots or Polish or Chinese.”
1. You create a hierarchy of language based solely on longevity of use in the locality not present need.
“It is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’t,”
2. You have a exclusionary attitude to the liguistic diversity of present day northern ireland.
“That’s already happening in a small way – Chinese ratepayers – I’ve seen Chinese and Arabic on RCA leaflets, I’ve never seen Irish. Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?”
3. You misunderstand that the reasons for provision in ME languages and the lesser used languages are largley different. The provision of material in ME languages isn’t based on cultural allowances but for communicative reasons. The provision of materials in Irish and Ulster-Scots is much more a case of cultural allowances.
4. The blanket description of MEC’s as foreigners and by implication their languages as foreign repeats an exclusionary attitude.
Simple really
f_d
Lol! You didn’t let me down – you came back with a load of evasive nonsense.
Rather than appointing yourself as my personal language spokesman (a position you are unqualified for) why not just answer the question…
How does my original comment display “basic ignorance of language needs of minority ethnic communities�
UM
I see you have gone for repetition of the question after it got an answer, trying to ignore the answer rather than address it. If you disagree and don’t accept my characterisation of the comments much simpler just to say so and that would be fair enough but if you want to play a game so be it.
The “basic ignorance” was thinking that the production of information in MEC languages was for cultural allowances when it is for communciation.
f_d
There’s no point pretending. Both of us know that you are not going to answer my question.
We also know that you have an agenda here (hence your attempt to represent me as some kind of ignorant ultra-nationalist racist).
You aren’t concerned about the usefulness or otherwise of an Irish language act. You subscribe to the same school of thought as many in Sinn Fein in that you see Irish as a political football rather than a language and you debate on that basis – hence you don’t answer my specific question, just repeat my words with your own little bit of spin.
You’re quite the devious propagandist – keep kicking your political football maybe you’ll manage to break a window.
f_d
Our comments crossed there.
“..after it got an answer”. It didn’t get an answer.
“The “basic ignorance†was thinking that the production of information in MEC languages was for cultural allowances when it is for communciation.”
So, essentially you are saying that Irish isn’t a form of communication it a form of cultural allowance. I geddit now.
UM
1. There’s no point pretending that it matters what answer I give, you will ignore it rather than reflect on what you wrote.
2. In our exchanges on this thread I made no reference to the Irish Language Act at all, your views on such or mine. I suggest you would be better reconsidering your comments rather than wasting it imagining machiavellian motivations.
fd,
i don’t know from your last comment what your position is. Are you for the irish language act in the spirit of inclusivity, or against it for any number of spurious reasons already mentioned on this thread. In truth I suspect that a lot of people are against the irish language act because they don’t like the irish or any manifestation of irishness, yet that hasn’t been mentioned at all. Also, no matter how you much you evade the issue, the irish language has a special significance for a large percentage of ulster people, whether you like it or not.
Observer
so people who speak irish are not real irish people. they might disagree.
“there is no cross community support for this so no irish language act …. welcome to the UK lads”
Lol. the perfect formula for stalemate and stagnation. Should that be applied to permission for orange marches too?
f_d
I’m not an Irish Language Act advocate, but if such a thing is ever introduced I hope they include a provision to educate people like yourself so that you might understand that Irish is in fact a language and not a “cultural allowance” or a political football.
Also, when I say that “Irish is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’t”. I mean it in the sense that “The Black Pig’s Dyke is part of traditional Ulster heritage. The Great wall of China isn’t” It would take a devious person with an agenda to represent that as “exclusionary” and to try to drag it down to the accusations of racism and xenophobia.
f_d
“I suggest you would be better reconsidering your comments rather than wasting it imagining machiavellian motivations.”
I suggest you quit trying to flatter yourself by comparing yourself to Machiavelli, your attempts to misrepresent my views as racist were just too stupid – see how I rubbished them in my last post.
Also, when I say that “Irish is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’tâ€. I mean it in the sense that “The Black Pig’s Dyke is part of traditional Ulster heritage. The Great wall of China isn’tâ€
To some Ulster people of chinese decent the great wall of china is part of their heritage, or are you saying if its not in ulster its no concern of ours?
Observer
“To some Ulster people of chinese decent the great wall of china is part of their heritage, or are you saying if its not in ulster its no concern of ours?”
Are you saying that because there are Ulster people of Chinese descent the Great Wall of China is part of Ulster’s traditional heritage.
UM
“So, essentially you are saying that Irish isn’t a form of communication it a form of cultural allowance. I geddit now”
My apologies if I have been insufficiently clear.
Irish as with every other language is a form of communication. The production of public information leaflets in it and Ulster Scots is broadly a case of cultural allowance as speakers of those languages in NI also speak English.
With a significant proportion of people in MECs a lack of knowledge of English or the increased barriers to comprehensibility caused by official or technical jargon in public information means it is best to produce the leaflets in their mother languages to understand it – communication.
So MEC’s and Lesser Used Language communities both get the leaflets translated but the rationale is different. The production for MEC’s is more to meet a clearly identifiable communicative need. The production in LUL is more recognition for the language and promotion of its usage rather than to ensure communication.
If you cut the MEC language leaflets the direct result is some people will have no access to materials they can understand. If you cut the LUL materials the speakers will still have access to materials that they can understand if not in the language they want.
Um
“Irish is in fact a language and not a “cultural allowance†or a political football.”
I seem to remember someone once saying that every word spoken in irish is a bullet fired in the cause of Irish freedom or some such nonsense. Making Irish a political football is not one sided.
I can remember when I was at Queen’s (many years ago)it was proposed to make the then bilingual signs multi lingual with appropriate Chinese languages. This was opposed essentially because the Chinese languages were seen as foreign. Was that not a trifle racist and are your comments not veering a bit close to that? Incidentally I think the Irish signs are down now in Queens because a report commissioned by the university said they were devicive
fd,
“i don’t know frm your last comment what your position is. Are you for the irish language act in the spirit of inclusivity, or against it for any number of spurious reasons already mentioned on this thread.”
On other threads I have previously stated I am not opposed in principle and it depends on what is in it. I haven’t had a decent case made to me the merits of an act nor how what people want can’t be achieved by non-legislative action.
There is significant scope for developments under the European Charter and the legislative requirement on the Executive to produce an agreed strategy for the development of the Irish language rather than create the holy cow of an act, to be worshipped or slain.
“In truth I suspect that a lot of people are against the irish language act because they don’t like the irish or any manifestation of irishness, yet that hasn’t been mentioned at all.”
In other threads on the topic it has been often mentioned. Maybe there are. However treating everyone who disagrees with an Act as holding these views is not the way to win friends or influence people.
“Also, no matter how you much you evade the issue, the irish language has a special significance for a large percentage of ulster people, whether you like it or not”
I haven’t evaded anything. I simply took UM up on a particular point. I have discussed the ILA on other threads.
This is also the bog standard argument often used for an ILA and I can’t see how it would change anyone’s attitude from anti to pro as everyone is aware of this. It isn’t a clincher argument.
UM
“I suggest you quit trying to flatter yourself by comparing yourself to Machiavelli, your attempts to misrepresent my views as racist were just too stupid – see how I rubbished them in my last post.”
It was you who called me “quite the devious propagandist” with “an agenda”
No I saw how you didn’t read my post and had to misrepresent my description of public information materials as a description of Irish. I said “The provision of materials in Irish and Ulster-Scots is much more a case of cultural allowances.” but you claimed I said “Irish isn’t a form of communication it a form of cultural allowance”.
You may not like the exact repetition of what you said and highlighting the concerning parts of it but trying to make me the issue instead is pointless.
I would also point out I never made any charge of racism or ultra nationalism simply ignorance of MEC needs. I try to be controlled and specific in the language I use.
You had the good sense and grace to accept your error on the RCA provision of irish language materials. In an online debate where speed of answer often gets in the way of clarity, sensitivity and displaying the knowledge you say you possess on MEC languages. Would you consider accepting that what you said could have been better phrased and knowledge better communicated?
Maybe it should be called Gaelic instead of Irish as it is here in Scotland/Alba. Gaelic-ness probably predates Irishness.
Ironically, in the language itself, it is called “Gaelic” (Gaeilge), but for some reason the campaigners choose to call it “Irish” when they speak in English. That in itself perhaps reveals an exclusively Gaelic attitude towards Irishness – to be Irish is to be Gaelic.
“Up to” 4,000 responses (whatever that means – no more than 4,000?) tells us nothing other than a lot of people are exercised by this issue.
The fact that “up to” 4,000 people have written to the Government makes the proposal for an Irish language Bill no more or no less meritorious.