4,000 responses to Irish Language legislation…
The Newsletter reports up to 4,000 responses from the public to proposed legislation on the Irish langauge. In a previous round of consultation, most of it favourable, and very little from unionist objectors.
In a previous round of consultation, the department received 688 letters, 1,376 postcards and a petition signed by 2,500 people. It found 93 per cent of respondents in favour of the legislation – as unionists failed to voice opposition in any significant number.
They later report that that pattern is expected to remain the same for this latest consultation.
In the meantime, Francie Brolly has complained that although he can put oral questions to ministers within the chamber of the Assembly in Irish, the same does not apply to written questions. According to the Newsletter, “there are also not the resources to embark on such translation”.
f_d
“Would you consider accepting that what you said could have been better phrased and knowledge better communicated?”
Why, do I look stupid or something? What I said was “Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?. I was refering to an RCA form that had 2 or 3 lines each of Chinese, Polish and Arabic, no Irish – and I wanted to know why, if we are prepared to make an effort for foreign languages, are we not prepared to do it for a native one. I was not describing the language needs of MEC language speakers. Do you understand? Of course you do. BTW, you might consider the use of Irish to be all about token cultural gestures but there are people who can actually “communicate” fluently in it and that is the point of providing services in them. I must say you have an imperfect grasp of language issues.
“It was you who called me…”
Fair enough, I accept your point, you really are machiavellian, you’ve mangaged to drag me into a “when did you stop beating your wife” scenario – my compliments.
“You may not like the exact repetition of what you said and highlighting the concerning parts of it but trying to make me the issue instead is pointless”
You are the issue, lets examine the exact repetition of what I said and your highlighting of the concerning parts.
I said “Irish is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’tâ€.
You highlighted your concern that I “have a exclusionary attitude to the liguistic diversity of present day northern ireland.”
Now, are you saying that Chinese is part of “traditional Ulster heritage”?. No, I didn’t think so. But you are trying to imply that I am racist. It’s as if you are saying that pagodas are as much a part of traditional Ulster architecture as dolmens and anybody who says otherwise is “exclusionary”. That is actually how stupid you are prepared to get!
“You had the good sense and grace to accept your error on the RCA provision of irish language materials”
Absolutely, I’ll admit it when I get it wrong and I’d invite you to apologise but you are rather persistent in your attempts to mis-represent me as racist, so I doubt if you would have the good grace to come clean on this one.
Good night.
Turgon.
“Was that not a trifle racist and are your comments not veering a bit close to that?”
Could you not be a bit more original – see my reply to fair_deal above.
“Making Irish a political football is not one sided.”
Yeah, that’s why I pointed out the similarity between fair_deal and the shinners and how they like to use Irish as a political football.
Good night.
A fair point willowfield. In fact, in the Ulster dalect, Irish/Gaelic is caled Gaedhlig.
Funnily enough the Irish/Gaelic name for Welsh is Breatnais (British).
And the old English name for Scots Gaelic was Scottish.
And of course, the Scotii were in fact the Irish.
The Welsh name for England is Lloedr, which I hear means the ‘lost lands’
And the Irish/Gaelic name for Wales is Breatain Bheag – Little Britain.
As for me, I’m the only Gael in the village.
Rather than get into a crude sectarian argument about this, Unionist representatives should simply point out that no where in the consultation document has it been shown that there is a need or demand for a specific Irish Language Act. Irish or for that matter Ulster Scots language enthusiasts are well catered for already through the provisions made in the Belfast Agreement.
From googling “Irish Language and Unionist” the most sensible Unionist response to this whole argument is here-
http://www.roy-beggs.co.uk/news/displayfullpress.asp?pressid=181
“Under no objective criteria could it be argued that there is a need for an Irish Langage Act. No ‘appropriate demand’ has been demonstrated in the consultation documents. According to offical census figures produced by the NI Statistical and Research Agency, 1.3% of the population in my constituency of East Antrim constituency can speak, read, write and understand Irish . 96.7% have no knowledge whatsoever. In the borough of Carrickfergus, 0.72% of the population can speak, read write and understand Irish, 98% have no knowledge of the Irish language. In Newtownabbey the respective figures are 1.95% and 95.7%. In Larne they are 1.6% and 95.6%.†http://www.nisranew.nisra.gov.uk/Census/Excel/KS24DC.xls
While statistics can of course be massaged or manipulated, what is undeniable is that 100% of those who claim they can read, write and understand Irish can also speak, read, write and understand English. I would contend that only a miniscule percentage of the general public can communicate fluently enough to be comfortable accessing public service through the medium of the Irish Language. I would argue that significant need has not been demonstrated.â€
But here is surely the clincher- this Bill would have to pass the cross community support threshold in the Assembly.- surely that is not going to happen?
The Chinese community is now in its third generation in Northern ireland when exactly does it merit being included in our cultural life.
I have no need to come clean on a charge I did not make.
Taxpayer
surely the fact that the Act is being proposed means there is a demand. And i presume that those people who support this act feel there is a real/significant need to their language having an officially recognised status.
Fair Deal
i wasn’t attempting to convince you of anything. Indeed, i don’t believe you are even susceptable to being convinced on this issue. This whole thing brings me back to my original point. Britishness is not an inclusive identity. Britishness means the English and the anglicised others.
“i wasn’t attempting to convince you of anything.”
Fair enough.
“Indeed, i don’t believe you are even susceptable to being convinced on this issue”
You are wrong. There is also no value in that position as the starting pointt of a debate.
“Britishness is not an inclusive identity. Britishness means the English and the anglicised others.”
No it doesn’t.
fair_deal
“The Chinese community is now in its third generation in Northern ireland when exactly does it merit being included in our cultural life – I have no need to come clean on a charge I did not make.”
I think the lesson here seems to be you are a very persistant troll.
Otherwise, how do you rationalise that I am trying to exclude Chinese people from our cultural life by stating the fact that “Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousand of years, much longer than … Chinese”.
Your accusations can’t be rationalised. It suggests you have bitter dislike of those who advocate the use of Irish, and when they compare provision for Irish with provision for ethnic minority languages you’ll go to quite absurd lenghts to imply racism.
This is my last exchange with you on this subject, I have no wish to feed a troll.
Surely the crux of the matter is:
(Let’s avoid the ‘you know nothing about..’ and leave the ‘you’re as nasty racist’ cliche ridden, mud slinging festival for two minutes..)
The objective of printing official/government/council/whatever communications in languages such as Chinese, Polish etc in Ulster/NI/the North/6 counties (select your preferred reference) is aimed at getting important messages across to sections of the commmunity who would have difficulty understanding the same message in English.
I don’t believe a body of people exist in the geography in question who would speak only Irish and would struggle to comprehend an english language version. Do they ? Happy to be contradicted.
As for an ILA – is it best aimed at trying to force Irish language into officialdom ?
good grief
We all already know that the objective of printing official communications in Chinese etc is aimed at people who have difficulty understanding the message in English.
That’s blatantly obvious – you don’t need to patronise anybody by pretending you have to explain it.
But you can’t accuse somebody of being racist (or “exclusionary”) for saying: “If you can print them in Chinese, why not in Irish?”. That isn’t saying you want Chinese excluded – which is how fair_deal tried to spin it.
“I don’t believe a body of people exist in the geography in question who would speak only Irish and would struggle to comprehend an english language version.”
You’re quite right, but you miss the point – which is to facilitate people to use Irish as a means of communication in all spheres of life, including official communication. The lack of which in previous years contributed great harm to the irish language in this geographic area.
“As for an ILA – is it best aimed at trying to force Irish language into officialdom ?”
How can that be a bad thing? What is your difficulty with it?
UM
” As for an ILA – is it best aimed at trying to force Irish language into officialdom ? â€
The above is a question. I’m interested in anyones opinion on the matter.
The below represents you (for reasons best known to yourself) transposing certain views of the ‘difficulty’ or otherwise is the use of the Irish language in an official capacity.
“How can that be a bad thing? What is your difficulty with it? ”
As for promoting the use of the language as a means of communication, my personal opinion is the education of children should be a priority. Broader interest would be better stimulated outside of government publications I’d suggest? …making it ‘sexy’ as someone previously suggested.
Cheers
UM
“how do you rationalise that I am trying to exclude Chinese people from our cultural life”
It would the situation if you remember what you said. The comment I made around tradition and the inclusion of Chinese was a response to your earlier statement that
“It is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’t,”
You were emphatic that Chinese “isn’t” part of “our traditional Ulster heritage”. I rationalise it because you said it directly.
It was not a response to the other point you made about length of use. I argued it was creating an unnecessary hierarchy.
Again I never introduced the terms racist nor ultra nationalist, you did.
good grief
“The above is a question.”
Sorry, it sounded like a rhetorical question.
Anyway the availablity of governemnt publications may help to stimulate some further usage of the language among those who want to use it. At the least it helps people to see it, use it and practise it. I don’t think you can make it “sexy” – it’s difficult to learn.
The only significant thing is that people use it and pass it on to their children. Any measures or legislation should be introduced should have that purpose – not for some kind of useless and irrelevant “cultural allowance” or tokenism.
f_d
“It would the situation if you remember what you said. The comment I made around tradition and the inclusion of Chinese was a response to your earlier statement that – “It is a part of our traditional Ulster heritage. Chinese isn’t,â€
OK, go on then, explain how the sentance “Chinese isn’t part of traditional Ulster culture” means “Chinese should be excluded from our cultural life”.
Then explain how Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands of years, much longer than English or Scots or Polish or Chinese” creates a “hierarchy” of language
“Again I never introduced the terms racist nor ultra nationalist, you did.”
No you didn’t use the word, you introduced the concept. For example I refered to “the linguitic culture of foreigners” and you said…
“The blanket description of MEC’s as foreigners and by implication their languages as foreign repeats an exclusionary attitude”,
Do me a big favour fair_deal, explain why you think Chinese, Polish and Arabic aren’t foreign languages. Do you recognise any language as foreign?
(WTF is an “exclusionary attitude” anyway? To me it has a racist sound to it, like the Chinese should be excluded. But you invented it so you are the only one who know what it means, I suppose.)
““Chinese should be excluded from our cultural lifeâ€.”
1. That is not a direct quote of what I said.
2. The language you used excluded “Chinese isn’t”
“creates a “hierarchy†of language”
It implies that a link between longevity and importance. Also the needs of MEC communities and their languages is basically a seperate one from the promotion of lesser used languages.
“No you didn’t use the word, you introduced the concept.”
Thank you for accepting I did not use the word. I do not think I introduced the concept either. The word and concept are thrown about too easily and flippantly. I have been careful in my language. Also if I thought you were I would have no problem in stating it. I don’t so I haven’t.
“explain why you think Chinese, Polish and Arabic aren’t foreign languages.”
There are settled communities here that use these languages so they are no longer foreign. Plus you have the likes of the Chinese community and their range of languages that have been here for a number of generations. How long does a language have to be spoken here before it is no longer foreign and the people who use them no longer “foreigners”?
“exclusionary attitude”
An attitude that excludes “Chinese isn’t”. Take for example your other phrase
“the linguistic culture of foreignersâ€
Some speakers of MEC languages were born, grew up here and are raising families here and others have gained citizenship. Some speakers are citizens but your comment classed them all as “foreigners”.
f_d
“That is not a direct quote of what I said.”
Yes indeed.
“The language you used excluded “Chinese isn’tâ€
Yes, I said Chinese isn’t a part of traditional Ulster heritage, and that is entirely true. Chinese is a part of traditional Chinese herigage, not traditional Ulster Heritage.
If Chinese people remain here in Ulster and keep their language they will be keeping a part of their traditional Chinese heritage, not their traditional Ulster heritage. If their Chinese mutates into a dialect that is unique to Ulster then that dialect will become a part of traditional Ulster heritage.
Your contention that Chinese and Polish are a part of traditional Ulster heritage could be no more ridiculous than if you went on to claim that Irish is a part of traditional Chinese heritage because I spent 2 months in China last year (which I did, and I picked up quite a few words of Chinese. It would be ludicrous to say that those Chinese words are part of my traditional Ulster Heritage, as you are saying). http://www.flickr.com/photos/60403521@N00/203244664/in/set-72157594216568829/
Explain how the straight forward statement of fact “Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands of years, much longer than English or Scots or Polish or Chinese” implies a link between longevity and importance. It doesn’t imply anything, it simply means that Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for much longer than English or Scots or Polish or Chinese.
“..if I thought you were I would have no problem in stating it. I don’t so I haven’t.”
OK, what about “The blanket description of MEC’s as foreigners and by implication their languages as foreign repeats an exclusionary attitude.” What exactlty do you mean when you say I have an “exclusionary attitude” to foreigners if it doesn’t mean I have an “exclusionary attitude” to them because they are foreigners. You are impling I’m a racist, you don’t have to use the word.
“How long does a language have to be spoken here before it is no longer foreign and the people who use them no longer “foreignersâ€?”
see above
“Take for example your other phrase
“the linguistic culture of foreigners”
see above
“Some speakers of MEC languages were born, grew up here and are raising families here and others have gained citizenship. Some speakers are citizens but your comment classed them all as “foreignersâ€.”
No I didn’t class anybody as foreigners, I didn’t mention anything about first, second or third generation immigrants or their descendants, or their ability to speak English, or their traditional languages, or their bilingualism or their integration into our society or their loss of their traditional language.
Why do you feel the need to suggest I did? I referred to the inclusion of Chinese, Arabic and Polish on official leaflets as “the linguitic culture of foreigers” which they are. If those immigrants remain settled here for a lot of generations their descendants will be no more fluent in their ancestral language than the average Italian American is fluent in Italian.
Now what was I originally talking about? Yes, Irish has been spoken here in Ulster for thousands for years, much longer than English, Scots, Polish are Chinese – pointing this fact out doesn’t make me a racist. Irish is a unique and precious part of our Ulster heritage.
UM
“Your contention that Chinese and Polish are a part of traditional Ulster heritage could be no more ridiculous than if you went on to claim that Irish is a part of traditional Chinese heritage because I spent 2 months in China last year (which I did,”
I don’t know whether to laugh or shake my head in despair at that comment.
They are not here on holiday. They live here. They work here. They pay taxes here. Some are raising families here. Some are citizens. Some have families who have been here for generations. They are not here for a couple of months/interlopers etc.
For accuracy I never mentioned Polish. I specifically referred to Chinese and the fact the community has existed and the associated languages have been used here now for at least three generations. I do not subscribe to the view that they are forever foreign? When did the other languages spoken here cease to be foreign? Irish is a composite language so a good chunk of it didn’t come from here when did it cease to be foreign?
“and I picked up quite a few words of Chinese.”
What do you want a prize?
“No I didn’t class anybody as foreigners,”
Err yes you did. Your full comment was “That’s already happening in a small way – Chinese ratepayers – I’ve seen Chinese and Arabic on RCA leaflets, I’ve never seen Irish. Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?”
Leaving aside the comment was based on a factual inaccuracy. You described provision in Arabic and Chinese as “allowance for the linguistic culture of foreigners”.
You made no mention of the different generations, range of linguistic ability etc as you did in your last post. You used one term to describe provision for speakers of Arabic and Chinese here and that word was “foreigners”
“this fact out doesn’t make me a racist.”
I have NEVER once called you a racist.
fair_deal
“I don’t know whether to laugh or shake my head in despair at that comment”
Try doing both at the same time.
“They are not here on holiday.”
Are you claiming that there aren’t any Chinese people here on holiday? How do you know? Do you stop every Chinese person you meet and ask them their business?
“They live here. They work here. They pay taxes here. Some are raising families here. Some are citizens. Some have families who have been here for generations.
Some are here on student visas…….
And all that makes Chinese part of traditional Ulster heritage? Chinese is a part of traditional Chinese heritage. If Chinese people remain here for generations and keep their language they will be keeping a part of their traditional Chinese heritage, not their traditional Ulster heritage.
If the Chinese spoken by the descendants of the Chinese in Ulster mutates into a dialect that is unique to Ulster then that dialect will become a part of traditional Ulster heritage. As of now Chinese isn’t part of traditional Ulster culture, it is part of traditional Chinese culture.
“For accuracy I never mentioned Polish. I specifically referred to Chinese..”
For even more accuracy we were talking about Arabic, Polish and Chinese. I presume then that you don’t consider Polish to be part of Ulster’s traditional heritage like Chinese. What about Arabic? Is that part of traditional Ulster heritage? Why? Why not?
“Err yes you did. Your full comment was “That’s already happening in a small way – Chinese ratepayers – I’ve seen Chinese and Arabic on RCA leaflets, I’ve never seen Irish. Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?â€
Maybe it’s ambiguous, I dont think so, but be assured, when I say “we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?†I don’t mean everyone of Chinese descent in Northern Ireland is a foreigner, I mean we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners.
FYI, there are third generation Chinese here who can’t speak Chinese. There are people of Chinese descent here who aren’t foreigners. There are Chinese people here who are foreigners, on holiday. Chinese is a foreign language.
(btw, what is your take on Teaching English as a Foreign Language – in China? Is English a foreign language in China in your opinion, or is it part of traditional Chinese heritage? If it is – why is it? and if not, why not?)
“What do you want a prize?”
No an apology for your suggestion that I am seeking to exclude Chinese. Why would I when I have learnt to speak it (to a very limited extent)
“Leaving aside the comment was based on a factual inaccuracy”
Actually it wasn’t based on a factual inaccuracy for the leaflet in question, it was factually correct.
“You made no mention of the different generations, range of linguistic ability etc as you did in your last post. You used one term to describe provision for speakers of Arabic and Chinese here and that word was “foreignersâ€
Yes, I made no mention of the different generations or their linguistic needs – you mentioned them (your patronising spiel about MECs and LULs). Where do you get different generations and their linguistic needs from “Why should Ulster’s unique linguistic culture be ignored when we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners” That compares the use of languages on a leaflet, not anybodys linguistic needs.
“I have NEVER once called you a racist.”
No, you implied that I’m a racist.
BTW, why you don’t you answer my questions?
UM
“Are you claiming that there aren’t any Chinese people here on holiday?”
No. When you live, work etc here you are not a tourist. Also a leaflet about rates information would not be produced for a tourist.
“I presume then that you don’t consider Polish to be part of Ulster’s traditional heritage like Chinese. What about Arabic? Is that part of traditional Ulster heritage? Why? Why not?”
Not yet. I thought I had made my position clearer earlier. If there is a settled language community here then it ceases to be a foreign language spoken by foreigners. If that community continues to exist and maintains their language, for a number of generations, as the Chinese community has, then you have to start looking at what you include in the definition of traditional heritage.
“(btw, what is your take on Teaching English as a Foreign Language – in China? Is English a foreign language in China in your opinion, or is it part of traditional Chinese heritage? ”
Apart from it being an apples and pears comparison. My general position is summarised above. If there is no settled community it is a foreign language and if such a community has not existed for generations it isn’t part of the traditional heritage.
“FYI, there are third generation Chinese here who can’t speak Chinese.”
I know. Although it tends to be literacy skills that decline the fastest rather than oral. Its causing intergenerational communication problems.
“No an apology for your suggestion that I am seeking to exclude Chinese.”
I am glad you had the chance to learn some Chinese. Did you manage to crack the tones? I am having real problems with them.
Whatever the activities on your visit, your comment still excluded here.
“(your patronising spiel about MECs and LULs).”
So knowing something about the issues and aware of the different sets of needs of MEC languages and LUL’s is patronising?
“Maybe it’s ambiguous,”
No its pretty clear.
“be assured, when I say “we are making allowances for the linguistic culture of foreigners?†I don’t mean everyone of Chinese descent in Northern Ireland is a foreigner”
Glad to here it.
“BTW, why you don’t you answer my questions?”
My apologies, if you would care to repeat the questions I have missed I will do so. You missed a few of mine too.