McDowell: IRA charged Farc $25 million for Colombian expedition..
Rough stuff in the first session of the party leader’s debate. In an often unruly four way debate, the Justice Minister and leader of the Progressive Democrats Michael McDowell dropped a bit of a bomb shell when he accused Gerry Adams of grandstanding on drugs, and alleged that the IRA had charged the narco-funded Farc guerillas in Colombia $25 million for its services. Adams’ response: ‘That remark is proof that you’re not worthy to be Minister of Justice’. We’ll see how it plays tomorrow’s papers…
Mick,
I don’t think many papers can get good coverage due to print runs, the Dindo goes very early due to it’s SW print plant.
I doubt the Greens or Labour want what was a pretty good debate reduxed to a PD/SF spat.
IMO, the main thing for those that watched is three parties found the PDs more repellent than anyone else and for a party polling on the limit of margins of error (0%) they could end up the ultimate transfer abhorrent element on the back of this.
This is more of the same old guff from McDowell. If he had any proof of this or any of the other charges he makes against SF, the Gardai should arrest Adams and he should have an opportunity for his day in court. It’s entirely unproveable, most likely because it’s not true.
That’s not to say that McDowell’s fellow travellers in the media won’t run with it tomorrow. Like they ran with the 45 minutes claim made by Blair over Saddam’s weapons of mass deception….
Gerry Adams wants to turn Ireland into France – a country with a stagnating economy so much so that FDI is running past it laughing with France begging property investors to come to rejuvenate dilapidated houses because the money isn’t there among local people or Government.
Note to Gerry – France tried this economy working for the people stance; but, that’s why France now has a Tory President to kick-start the economy back into life after years of people-socialism in the economy that has crippled it, particularly in respect of working arrangements and attitude to work.
DC,
How long are the housing waiting lists in the south? If you think developer quotas for social and affordable housing are going down badly, well you must be a northern stoop. These policies are as welcome in the south as the north.
You may want to protect the speculator over the first time buyer – only those that screw people for a living sell that argument anywhere in Ireland.
“You may want to protect the speculator over the first time buyer – only those that screw people for a living sell that argument anywhere in Ireland.”
Sssshhh Soupy don’t spin out at me like that, speculators using private business money to own homes to profiteer instead of buying shares and funds needs to be seriously looked among the business community as to their social conscience – landlordism needs to be fundamentally looked at.
Open up green belts in line with a new strategy for sustainable public / buy-out co-ownership partnership housing would help to ensure supply is increased, plus intensification of brown-field developments coupled with the intent to introduce timelimits over landbanking, in order to limit this practice among private sector of hoarding land and reducing supply.
Prioritise inner-city development plans and the movement of people into the city, where the money is at, to ensure public money is spent centrally and concentrated around the people, people who need to access this economy. Investment in public transport within these areas is essential and I thought the Greens made sense.
Gerry in regards to the South, wants to spread the money everywhere in a socialist fashion using drastic circumstances to highlight the need for doing so, such as rural Ireland and the dire consequences of bad accidents out in field, which only a super-human magic wand Government strategy – joined up by great Sinn Fein thinking of course – could possibly propel those who need such immediate care into hospital on time.
Of course it can be done, but get your cheque book out for it.
Will help attract some of the the anti-SF FG voters and/or transfers from that quarter.
“This is more of the same old guff from McDowell. If he had any proof of this or any of the other charges he makes against SF, the Gardai should arrest Adams and he should have an opportunity for his day in court.” – Oilibhear Chromaill
Do you mean like the “same old guff” from McDowell about PSF being the organised crime gang behind the Northern Bank robbery (netting these criminal godfathers a cool 25 million in Sterling, not to finance their sectarian murder campaign – for the robbery occurred after they ended it – but to ensure they’d not want for nothing in their ‘retirement’) or the “same old guff” from McDowell about Gerry Adams being a member of the self-style ‘Army Council’ of the murder gang known as PIRA? The Minister for Justice has access to Intelligence on these matters.
It’s true that there is no hard evidence to prove that Adams was a member of the IRA (despite being the mastermind behind the appalling strategy of “The Disappeared” a full two years before Augusto Pinochet borrowed his idea), but Mr Adams has the advantage of being in a position to organise the murder of those who might otherwise provide the evidence. That’s an unfair advantage over the forces of law and order, eh?
The leaders of PSF are among the richest individuals in the state. They are, in fact, the wealthiest criminal gangsters in the history of the state, having more investments to monitor that Dermot Desmond. They are also the biggest tax-dodgers in the state. It was cute that the head of the criminal cartel, Gerry Adams, was proffering his working class credentials on RTE by claiming that he draws an “average industrial wage†– cute because McDowell quickly pointed out that he owns homes in Donegal and Belfast. Still, at least Mr McDowell was kind enough not to point out that Adams spends more than the “average industrial wage†on his suits, eh? God forbid the dupes who support those gangsters should catch their leader and his bullshit on.
Does Sinn Fein pay tax on these ventures?
Oh dear Dubliner – that post of yours has the distinct smell of panic about it.
Jumping on the unsubstantiated McDowell magic band wagon and hurling conjecture and hearsay out the windows like sweeties really does nothing for the credibility of the points you try to make.
Now if making completely unsubstantiated claims without a grain of evidence does not constitute “old guff” to you I’d be interested to hear what does.
If, as you say, “The Minister for Justice has access to Intelligence on these matters” then surely given his track record and the current elcetion campaign he wouldn’t be a bit behind the door producing it. But then again as you also admit “It’s true that there is no hard evidence”.
From that point onwards the substance of your post took a nose-dive.
what did adams say when mcdowell pointed out the donegal houses thing?
andy
He reddened a bit and tried to laugh it off by saying something about mortgages and “…the bank owns them”.
Of course McD was in like a shot with, “Which bank, that would be the Northern Bank, would it?”
Adams took a total pasting over his uncosted economic policy last night. It’s probably not relevant, as the voters SF is targeting down south were probably watching stolen porn DVDs at the time and are innumerate in any case.
Still McDowell came close to the hitting motherlode of provoking a full-on Adams “Don’t you know who I am?” hissy-fit. Gerry is so pompous and so used to being surrounded by arse-kissing yes-men that he *will* eventually go off on one on-camera now he’s exposed to the rough-and-tumble of real political debate with people he can’t just have killed.
You must have been hearing double Penguin.
Il Penguino
Thanks. I thought he would have mentioned being an author etc.
That or else simply focus on a small space on the wall and say nothing etc
SRR- I did smile at your characterisation of SF voters. It is a bit naughty though
adios
McDowell wasn’t pointing out anything that anybody didn’t know regarding Adams’ holiday home in the Donegal Algarve. However it’s a bit rich of him, given that moments earlier he was defending the owners of second homes from having ‘commercial rates’ inflicted upon them by the Greens!
Dubliner and McDowell share one thing in common, a tendency to ignore the golden thread of law: innocent until PROVEN guilty.
My point was that if McDowell felt confident enough to throw such accusations about a TV studio during a live broadcast, surely he knows that the Gardai have enough evidence to move on it against Adams and have him arrested. That raises the queston of him prejudicing a court case – as his party colleague did in the case of Charlie Haughey – and allowing the ‘suspect’ to get off scot free. Or it raises the misuse of Garda information – leaking to the press information which if a Garda did it, he would be arrested and charged under the Garda Act of a few years back. Or it’s simply lying and in that case Adams should sue because the charges were against him, personally.
Then again there’s the reckless playing of the peace process for personal gain by McDowell which is precisely why Adams is regarded as a world statesman on the scale of Mandela while McDowell is a piddling parish pump politician of little consequence, a man who never grew out of student debating societies.
“a world statesman on the scale of Mandela”
This is what I mean about being surrounded by arse-kissers and yes-men (Chromaill works for SF’s outsourced PFI propoganda operation).
“McDowell is a piddling parish pump politician of little consequence”
- precisely, yet he still trounced Adams in a live studio debate because Adams hasn’t faced any serious criticism in person since he silenced all argument around him by ‘disappearing’ an innocent mother of 10.
Envy is a terrible vice SRR and you need to get over it. As far as Adams is concerned, he is the only politician here that has spent serious time with Mandela and the ANC regularly send representatives to the SF Ard Fheis. When was the last time you saw the ANC at a PD conference?
As for ‘trouncing’ Adams, not likely. There was no way that was the result of last night’s debate. Adams came off as having a view of the bigger picture.
*dear christ*
Michael McDowell looked increasingly desperate last night. He continued with his very personal attacks on the respective leaders of The Greens, Labour and SF and he suffered a very big hit when Trevor Sergeant quoted 2 specific examples of blatant PD lies in respect of Green Party Policy.
McDowell looked totally on the ropes at that point and perhaps we are finally going to witness the demise of this insular, nasty and untalented politician who displays the very worst face of Irish politics.
I thought that Adams, Rabitte and Sergeant all scored points on respective various issues and there was little between them in terms of the overall debate.
Of course you ‘think’ that. You’re a total Shinner drone. Your opinion on the debate has exactly as much meaning as the probability of any political debate changing your opinion – i.e. zero.
“Of course you ‘think’ that. You’re a total Shinner drone. Your opinion on the debate has exactly as much meaning as the probability of any political debate changing your opinion – i.e. zero.”
Whereas you, of course, hadn’t your mind made up the other way regarding Adams before you started. Hell, no.
So you agree then?
SRR,
Bearing in mind that I just said that Trevor Sergeant and Pat Rabitte BOTH performed equally as well as Adams, that kind of negates your somewhat…
In fact YOU are the person here who is unwilling to be open to having his opinions changed due to your well-documented hatred of SF which has been apparent on this site for a long time… Pre-conceived opinions are not something that you are alien to, SRR…
Roll on next Thursday…!
Currently not sure what to make of SF. Any proof of the Dubliners claim that Adams was personally behind the disappeared?
None Truth seeker.
SRR “It’s probably not relevant, as the voters SF is targeting down south were probably watching stolen porn DVDs at the time and are innumerate in any case.”
Andy “SRR- I did smile at your characterisation of SF voters. It is a bit naughty though”
Naughty? Not really. Condescending, arrogant and ignorant would be closer to the truth. But well, pigs and grunts is all thatan be expected sometimes.
I suppose SRR will mark me down as an Adams yes man too saying as I dare challenge his wit and wisdom. Would be a pity though SRR – sometimes its good to open a closed mind you know.
macswiney
Bearing in mind that I just said that Trevor Sergeant and Pat Rabitte BOTH performed equally as well as Adams, that kind of negates your somewhat…
No it doesn’t.
It is a classic propagandist’s trick. Rubbish your real opponent attempt, associate with others to try to but blue water between an image you are trying to change.
So to address Mick’s final point, how it played in the papers. I was correct it didn’t appear in them.
Irish Times today: “Adams gets a hiding”
Quaysider,
I think you’ll find that is from the Times ‘blog’ and nothing of that nature appears in the paper.
The SF stories in the paper are:
SF to start Irish unity moves when in power
Sinn Féin manifesto
SF criticises ‘scam’ on tax cuts by other parties
SF tensions on taking up power surface
So if it’s only in a blog it doesn’t count?
Much like yourself then.
“Any proof of the Dubliners claim that Adams was personally behind the disappeared?”
Adams was IRA commander in Belfast when Protestant mother of 10 Jean McConville was abducted, tortured, murdered and her body secretly buried. It couldn’t have happened without his sanction. The same applies to the La Mon no-warning firebombing of a canine clubs annual dinner at a hotel in the Belfast suburbs. Many people killed, many many more terribly mutilated – it couldn’t have happened without his say so. He was arrested for that but not enough evidence.
He was second-in-command when the no-warning car bombs of Bloody Friday exploded all around Belfast killing and horribly mutilating many, many people.
These are just a tiny fraction of the things Mr Adams has on his CV.
SuperSoupy
Hard luck, good try.
But it is all part of the IT’s Election Report in the paper today
Down Fido.
As I pointed out to Mick this non-story won’t make the papers as it all happened after they went to press last night and it’ll be out of date for tomorrow.
And no I don’t think the Irish Times blog counts for much in the grand scheme of things.
Adams came across as as he and all SF people do when talking about the nitty gritty of economics and politics down south – like a tape set on repeat. It showed him as out of touch with the Republic, like most of SF’s predominantly northern leadership. His pious generalities aren’t going to win over many new voters.
Adams is all over SF’s posters down south yet he isn’t even standing in the election. Bizarre! If SF want to trade on the Adams image you’d think they would have briefed him properly on the issues.
It was up to Mark Little to rebuke McDowell for making the accusations about Adams. The Justice Minister doesn’t have Dail privilege in an RTE studio, and RTE could be sued by Adams as well for letting the accusations go unchallenged.
I’m glad McDowell got the shot in about Adams’ holiday home and the dealings with FARC drug dealers, though. Average wage my eye! The IRA had their own ways of dealing with drug dealers and it wasn’t about education, inclusivity and stopping the causes of crime – a bullet in the kneecap or an exile notice.
Hello folks,
Whilst it kills me to say it, I thought that Sargeant and Rabbitte were the out and out victors in last nights debate.
McDowell, once again, came off as the snide prefect type. Who votes for this guy other than those who were picked last in PE?
Adams fluffed it again. He was caught out on numerous occassions when it came down to economics…for gods sakes will someone give this man a crash course. He looked decidedly uncomfortable when hit with the Donegal holiday home quip and embarassingly tried to mutter something about the bank owning it..untrue of course. He was also caught out repeating the same stuff everytime it came round to him…you see people have rights….what is crucial here is that people have rights…we believe that people have rights.
We do have rights the right to hear the answer to the question asked and not all of Gerry’s fluffing around for a soundbyte.
John – any proof of all that?
I’m not saying Adams is an angel, but bandying about hearsay and rumour you read elsewhere and selling it as truth does not actually proove anything.
So to repeat the question:
Any proof of the Dubliners claim that Adams was personally behind the disappeared?
Or indeed for any of John’s claims?
Red Haze,
If you think that Adams fluffed it you were watching a different debate methinks… This was Mick Fealty’s analysis of the debate (on another thread).
“Adams undoubtedly the winner in my book. McD though scored well on the Colombia drugs point. Adams seemed to stop goading him after that. The thing about both is they have a base that react oppositely from one another. Sargent for me was better than Rabbit, but I’d say my instincts there might be questionable since I’m not so familiar with either the personalities or the character of their political bases.
McDowell dealt poorly (actually not at all) with Adams’s stuff on Health, almost as though he wasn’t prepared for it, which looked a bit weird. Adams’ weak point was reading from notes on the tax issues. He just about pulled it off (mostly because there was no serious counterattack), but it made him look like it just wasn’t familiar enough with the affairs of the State.
Killer point for Adams may be the topical mention of suicide.
PS, I meant to put Politics.ie in there, but just had to keep watching.
Posted by Mick Fealty on May 16, 2007 @ 11:09 PM”
redhaze
The point about a rights based approach to public services (which does not exist now) is that the Government can’t use money as an excuse for failure to deliver. We have seen parents having to sue the state in order to get their children what they should be entitled to. So Sinn Fein’s approach is radical, relevent and republican.
So when gerry adams talks about rights he is bringing people to the heart of the debate who are ignored by the other parties who are fighting the election on tax-cuts.
Oilibhear Chromaill
‘Adams is regarded as a world statesman on the scale of Mandela’
If you honestly think that Gerry Adams is a ‘world statesman’ on a par with Nelson Mandela than you are seriously deluding yourself.
Nelson Mandela is one of the most famous people in the world. He has won the Nobel peace prize, and has been granted hundreds of honours and awards by institutions and governments the world over, ranging from the Presidential Medal of Freedom (highest civilian honour in the US), honorary citizen of Canada (first living person to be awarded this) to honorary member of Manchester United (admittedly, some awards are best forgotten). Since his freedom, cultural, sporting and political icons have made the pilgrimage to South Africa to meet the great man (accompanied of course by the world’s press). As well as politicians of all ilk from many different countries he has met heavy weight champions of the world and the Spice Girls.
Not even Steve Collins or a member of Bewitched turns up in West Belfast for a photo-opportunity with Gerry Adams. Granted Bill Clinton rocked up in the mid-90s, but he more-or-less shook everybody’s hand that day. Mandela turns up at the 2010 World Cup host selection and the next thing you know South Africa are hosts. Gerry Adams turns up in Zurich and FIFA HQ is evacuated in 5 minutes.
Its true that Gerry Adams is quite possibly the most famous ‘politician’ in these islands – more famous than Paisley or Bertie certainly. How much of this is due to his statesman-like behaviour and how much is to do with his infamy is open to question. Having spent much time out of our particular goldfish bowl I can tell you that he isn’t that famous. Outside of Ireland, the UK, and the greener parts of the US, the ordinary man on the street in the rest of the world would be hard-pressed to put a name to the face. Could the same be said about Mandela?
Comparing the scale of ‘world stateman’-ness of Nelson Mandela and Gerry Adams would be like comparing the fame of Posh Spice and Keavy Lynch. (adopts scouse accent) Keavy Lynch – who is she? Exactly!
Some extreme unionists who post here would regard Mandela and Adams as being equally hangable as terrorists. This however is not a vuiew that they choose to argue when they appear on Hearts and Minds.
“So when gerry adams talks about rights he is bringing people to the heart of the debate who are ignored by the other parties who are fighting the election on tax-cuts.”
No, he is using the language of soundbyte to obscure the fact that he isn’t familiar with the figures or the particulars of these issues.
As a voter in the upcoming ROI election I am insulted that SF thinks it can canvass for my vote without having done any of the hard math.
SF has done a U-turn on raising corporation tax and 50pc tax for those earning above 100,000K. How is it going to implement these public services everyone has a right to without the money to pay for them? Is it going to give every public service organisation that goes out on strike everything they want? These are basic questions the voters have a ‘right’ to hear answered. I predict that in 20 years time, possibly 10 years, SF will be unrecognisable as the left-wing party it is now and will be more like FF. It is a party of opportunism, as much as FF or FG.
I can’t believe Mick Fealty actually thought Adams was the runaway winner.
TWGM – just to start filling in your skewed picture of outside the goldfsh bowl.
I’ve been living outside of the wee 6 for a while too, and am constantly answering peoples questions regarding Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein (no I’ve absolutely nothing to do with that party).
I was in Ethiopia last week and was involved in a discussion on “Sinn Fein governing Ireland” (they were referring to the stormont thing nd got the facts a little confused). I’ve had discussions with others on the edge of the Sahara on the rise of Sinn Fein (Gerry Adams in particular) and the fate of the hunger strikers. I’ve answered questions about the man at tiny border crossings in Burkina Faso, and in bars in th Black Forest for goodness sake. Like it or not the man is internationally known and recognised – and in my experience not as a notorious terrorist godfather à la Bin Ladenbut as the man behind the Irish peace process.
Why this might be I cannot say exactly but its the way I’ve experienced it. So I’d say you’re welloff the mark mate.
“Like it or not the man is internationally known and recognised…Why this might be I cannot say exactly but its the way I’ve experienced it. So I’d say you’re welloff the mark mate.”
Yeah and so is Adolf Hitler.
Why – because of their use of iron-weilding and spillage of blood to rise into the democratic-realm thus permeating into a political administration keen to be got rid off.
“I can’t believe Mick Fealty actually thought Adams was the runaway winner.”
I posted last night after reading Mick’s view that I must have been watching a different programme.
Thankfully it turns out that I wasn’t.
The Irish Times Election 2007 report – actually in the newspaper by the way – has two assessments of last nights performances. One by Michael O’Regan and Ronan McGreevy and the other by Mark Hennessy.
The first reports on all of the Farc, two houses and Northern Bank stuff (actually headlines with “McD accuses SF of getting $25 million from Farc for Irish politics”). The report makes clear they felt Adams did very badly.
In Hennessey’s report right at the beginning he says “…Gerry Adams had a poor showing…”.
B.I.G.O.T alert!!!
SRR: “It’s probably not relevant, as the voters SF is targeting down south were probably watching stolen porn DVDs at the time and are innumerate in any case.”
Could you translate that last phrase into english PII?
By the way there are quite a few people who are recognised internationally other than of Gerry Adams and Adolf Hitler – but I have a feeling your comparison was due more to your own taste in literature than to any kind of relation to the real world.
Adams could have prepared better for the opening statements, memorised and practised his speech if he couldn’t wing it, rather than constantly looking down to read from his notes.
During the debate he appeared a bit like a fish out of water. The moderator was poor, pretty well allowing a free for all, and Adams didn’t jump in. But in the end I think that was to his advantage, as he started to look like a mildly amused adult watching children have a food fight.
The Penguin,
[i]Of course McD was in like a shot with, “Which bank, that would be the Northern Bank, would it?â€[/i]
I believe he said the “Northern Ireland Bank”. So much for ‘Intelligence’.
redhaze,
[i]for gods sakes will someone give this man a crash course[/i]
It would be money well spent.
circles
I too have spent a lot of time in many countries, (currently in Libya). My experience is a lot different. If people have heard of Adams at all, it is generally as the leader of the IRA. Most people outside of modern Western society haven’t heard of him. The same is not true of Mandela.
It is strange that our experiences are so different. Are you talking to the ordinary man in the street or the desert?
By the way, if by chance I ever did come across someone you knew Adams as a peacemaker, I would ensure that they understood reality.
That would be YOUR reality they would have to understand then I take it DJK – quick bit of reeducation on your travels.
As for ordinary – what can I say? Taxi drivers, police men, customs men, business people, students, engineers…. how ordinary is ordinary I wonder.
Whether or not “most” people outside of the “western world” have heard of him I cannot say, but I have ever met anybody outside of the “western world” who knew of Gerry Adams and thought negatively of him.
I’m not judging this DJK is just my experience. I’m sitting on the other side of the Sahara from you now and have had the same experiencehere in Niger.
TWGM – you are spot on 100%. Born and bred outside the goldfish bowl I was vaugely aware who Gerry Adams was, but it was as DJK described, the leader of the IRA. It wasn’t until I fell for a Belfast boy did I learn of the various shades of grey distinguishing SF, IRA, PRIA, RIRA, CIRA etc.
In fact the more I learned the less enamored I was of the romanitcised view of “the struggle” that’s pitched here stateside. Americans like the image of “Celtic Woman” Ireland and really don’t care much about the political squabbles between republicans and unionists.
As TWGM pointed out, outside of the “green” zones & populations of the US I think it would be safe to say that most Americans, if they even recognised him, would not put Gerry Adams on the same level as Nelson Mandela.