And here’s the ‘money shot’…
Paul Faith/PA and the money shot of the day…
Tags: Negotiations
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Ulsters Last Stand?: Can Unionism Move Beyond Insurance Policy Politics?
How has Ulster unionism arrived at where it is today – fractured and uncertain, yet dominated electorally by the DUP, a party that tells us it offers unionists sure footing in uncertain times? In his latest book, Ulster’s Last Stand? Reconstructing Unionism after the Peace Process (Irish Academic Press, 2010), Prof. James McAuley from the [...] read our review »
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Stay out of Libya: counterinsurgency doesn’t work
A moment of some significance in journalism perhaps, as the New York Times reviews the current talked about book, The Wrong War: Grit, Strategy, and the Way Out of Afghanistan by Bing West. The author is no bleeding heart but a former assistant Defense Secretary from the Reagan era who stomped his way round the Afghan [...] read our review »
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The Creative Class and Northern Ireland
As part of NICVA’s series of masterclasses from its Centre for Economic Empowerment project, there was a morning seminar on the topic of the “creative class” (as popularised by Richard Florida) and its applicability to Northern Ireland. The agenda was to: Explain Richard Florida’s idea of the “creative class” and the link between economic outcomes [...] read our review »
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Am I alone in wishing those who have so comprehensively lost the argument against the election of democratically elected politicians to office (shock, horror?) that they’d exercise a fundamental right – to silence?
Nope, there are heaps of SF posters (and a handful of DUPes) who like you wish that the people who disagree with them would shut up and go away. But of course your question is in truth utterly disengenuous – who ever argued against elections, or democracy or politicians? I certainly have always favoured all three of those things, and have always been opposed to those, like Martin, who have ignored elections, discounted democracy and murdered politicians they didn’t like. Naturally when SF were on the ‘wrong’ side of political power (gifted to you by your literal paymasters in the British government), no doubt you then wished SF would be ‘silent’? For course you’re surely not in favour of dissidents being silenced only when it’s not you dissenting?
Forgive me for misunderstanding that your perspective that Martin McGuinness should be in jail rather than in office meant that you were opposed to the electoral process that put him there.
Votes, dear boy, votes. Your position is profoundly anti-democratic as you wish what people want to take second place to your pious moralistic view of the situation here, a view shared by only the most unrepentant (and unrepresentative backwoodsmen and woman and the unelected and unelectable.
There was a choice and an argument. It was the wrong choice, trying to criminalise those with a political aim. As that tactic was tried out, hundreds died – and not just at the hands of the IRA. In the absence of political agreement where there is a conflict, thats what happens. Didn’t you know that?
As I would say to those who find the situation here unbearably immoral: just emigrate. Not one of you will be missed. Leave us to wallow in our immorality where the chances of violent death have been immeasurably reduced due to a reconcilation which you can’t accept. We’ll get used to it, even enjoy it!
Well there’s a suprise, a defender of Martin ‘advising’ someone he disagrees with to ‘move out’. Gosh, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, does it?
My ‘position is profoundly anti-democratic as [I] wish what people want to take second place to [my] pious moralistic view of the situation here, a view shared by only the most unrepentant (and unrepresentative backwoodsmen and woman and the unelected and unelectable’. Bad me for having opinions ‘I Wonder’ disagrees with. No wonder I should be cleared out. But how lovely to see Republicans won round to majoritarian democracy (by virtue, er, of a Lib Demish/FGish 26.2% of the vote …). But then I suppose acceptance of that principle goes cap in hand with their acceptance of Stormont, partition and ministerial jobs & salaries doled out by London. And how perplexing that when SF weren’t gerrymandered into office by virtue of utterly anti-democratic compulsory powersharing (which of course renders elections moot, as you can’t throw the bums out), and were ‘in opposition’, they and their supporters didn’t believe that oppositions and minorities and dissidents should ‘shut up’ and go away.
But there’s no getting away from the crux of the argument: for someone like ‘I wonder’ it’s “pious morality” not to want to see murderers in office, but rather to prefer that such men should be in prison. I’m happy for that to be the dividing line between people like me and people like ‘I wonder’.
Darth and Watchman
The GFA was never dead in the water. It was the only show in town and has since proven to be the case.
The DUPs new deal and fair deal never materialised because they did not have one original thought in their head other than trying to work out how to get Paisley into Stormont.
You say yourself that Jeffrey wanted the GFA with decommissioning like the rest of us so I cant see what exactly you think he would have done differently within the UUP that he ultimately did within the DUP
ie nothing other than wait for the Provos to deliver what they were sliding towards anyway.
of course what they did to get that was reinforce sectarianism via the biggest Parties for OFM and DFM and of course ushered in the biggest trojan horse of all in the Irish language act the sole role of which is to gradually nudge out British trappings of state to be replaced with the Gaelic version of Irish as being the one true soul of any political entity on this island.
But the DUP are as usual asleep on the watch as they preen their own vanity and put party before Union.
As for the DUP hoovering up what is left of the UUP you seem to under estimate my distaste for that Party and its abuse of the word Democratic in its name.
It pays begrudging and distasteful respect for the rights of minorities and has a totally un presbyterian attitide to its political and religious leader.
A man who if he says it is ok then it is ok and a leader for life in a Party of much abler men but who are too afraid to even oppose him.
Are you mad that the remnants of the UUP could find a home among such people.
As for former UUP members who have been deceived or in my opinion betrayed us on the basis of what they believed were admirable principals then I dont hold grudges.
Anyone who wants to support the Union and who believe the DUP are no defenders of it can stand with me regardless of how we opposed each other in the past.
Regarding the untreatable cancer of SF i dont agree. As each generation dies off the cancer will be wither with it as they adopt the respectability of power both sides of the border.
New generations ome along and they will expect higher standards.
Well, just back Jim Allister to the hilt next time he stands as an MEP. He seems as outraged as you at the fact that some 12,000 people voted against this deal and that’s not really enough to return him should he act on principle and resign the seat he won purely and simply as the DUP candidate.
Like those who choose to stay, despite their terrible moral outrage, none of you nay-sayers have the guts to act on your “principled opposition.
As for percentages, I’ll leave it to others to work out what percentage 12,000 anti-St Andrews is compared to the numbers who turned out to support the Agreement.
Gosh, what a detailed and substantive response that was from ‘I wonder’, dealing with, er, not a single point put to him. I wonder if this bodes well or ill for my chances of being allowed to stay put? And now it turns out that people like me (who are opposed to murderers being ministers, rather than prisoners) ‘lack guts’, much like the late Robert McCartney. But there I go again – talking about the boring old past, when poor old Sinn Fein where in opposition, denied the right to be heard, as opposed to being in a place where they (judging from the dickish Provette postings on this and other threads since yesterday’s Blessed Day of Peace and Laughing with Paisley) fully intend to try and stop anyone who disagrees with them being heard. Well bad luck old son – your mates couldn’t silence the peaceful when they were murdering them, and they’re certainly not going to manage it now, when they’re so peaceful and respectable.
What a depressing picture.Does McGuinness remember Paysley’s words about catholics and republicans?Dup have always been the most religiously fundamentalist party in Northern Ireland.I prefer the coherency demonstrated by Jim Allister,who resigned and showed the real intolerance belonging to DUP.Dialogue with moderate unionists is necessary,but this laugher is truly excessive.They seem old good friends.
It’s unbelievable McGuinness and Adams still define themselves republicans.I’d say they are “agreeable”unionists…
I Wonder,
Speaking personally, I think that the IRA scum who murdered one of my relatives in front of his family actually deserved to be criminalised.
John EB,
Since 27 March, Paisley has moved his party right on to the ground on which the UUP stands. Yes, Paisleyism may be all the things you claim it to be. But it is still the more dynamic and well-organised of the 2 unionist parties. The UUP was sustained for years as an implicit contrast to Paisley the Ogre. He’s hardly that any longer. Your party is dying on its feet: traditional support that has drifted away for good, dwindling and ageing membership, a lack of talent at every level, poor strategic direction. And Reg isn’t exactly a vote-puller in the East, is he? (I could go on, but you get the drift.)
John
I disagree profoundly with your analysis of the GFA, though I understand why you feel obliged to still pretend it is the only show in town. It’s not a fixed point-it’s a process, and at every stage post 1998 the constructive ambiguity was used by the governments to outflank Trimbleism.
From the absurd number of Ministries to the standing orders allowing redesignation to the Punt court case against Trimble,the UUP lost all the small battles and devoted all their efforts to them at the price of the big stuff.
Its only succes was IIMC- which was promptly used against it in “Decommissioning 3-This time it’s..er as opaque as the last two”. Most UUP people knew it was drifting away from them, and they had fallen out of love with it- except of course the payroll vote, MLAs, families, researchers etc. It never did what it said on the tin Trimble sold.
Squawking about the Irish Language Act now is a bit rich from the party that lost and lost and lost again and did nothing. No sane Unionist faced with two versions of fadge eating surrender monkeys that pass for our leaders can be confident that either will stop the drift. The fact remains that all the technocrats and best micro-managers are in the DUP. You’ve got Billy Armstrong and Violet Elizabeth Hermon. And you wonder why people won’t come back to you?
“thank you most of all for helping me demonstrate that there are NO convincing moral arguments against a man like martin being raised to a dignity built on the graves of all those he murdered”
Whatever Next – I know what you mean but if you really want to prove that you have the mental capacity to grasp the concepts being discussed here then I wouldnt put so many double negatives in one sentence! When you are this hot under the collar I understand its easy to get a bit muddled up but try not to do so in the same post as you attempt to prove your brains!
Zowee, killer argument there Get@grip, except, er, you haven’t quoted *any* double negatives. It must be typing in the oppressor’s tongue that confuses you so. Still haven’t dealt with any of the actual-factual, boring old, dull old points put to you either I note. Keep flailing – drowning not waving.
“actual-factual, boring old, dull old points”?
You made a point somewhere in there? Sorry, I wasnt listening…
Seriously though – cant spot any ‘point’ – but by all means I’ll answer any question you can ask without losing it in another anti-SF rant.
Whatever Next – do you accept that about 20% of the electorate vote for McGuinness’ party? Since you oppose McGuinness in govt, can I ask how you would square this opposition with those voters democratic right to be represented? Just wondering.
Since – for whatever reason it is – you’re determinedly deaf to the idea that murderers *shouldn’t* be in office, regardless of how many people vote for them, what exactly would the problem be with a party that scores in the low 20s finding itself in opposition? It’s precisely what happens to the Lib Dems on the mainland, and to FG down south. Or it is your argument that SF have to be in office come what may?
Darth and Watchman
a lack of talent at every level, poor strategic direction.
and
The fact remains that all the technocrats and best micro-managers are in the DUP.
All of that can be fixed with an influx of talent.
Have a look at the photo at the top of this thread and tell me if you honestly think a Unionist alternative to the DUP is not required and if you do what are you doing about it
But, John EB, where is this influx of talent going to come from and why is it not already happening? Successful parties tend to attract ambitious people to stand for them, some of whom migh even be talented. Who would join a pit of mediocrity in steep decline?
We do need an alternative to the DUP, but there is little to differentiate the UUP from the DUP in substantive terms. Do you think that if the UUP had outpolled the DUP in March, Wee Reg wouldn’t have been photographed grinning at Martin’s right side?
Stuart here, back from the grave,
JEB is spot on. I actually would have tended to be on the Darth side of the argument in 98 and 99, but the whole pro and anti agreement argument was academic by 2000, and it just became the DT v Jeffrey show with the party being torn apart with every trip to the Waterfront. It was totally personal and recent events have shown that there was no great principal involved at all. (PS in terms of the leaving of Arlene and Jeffrey, in many ways they deliberately isolated themselves and wanted to be pushed out, but it definitely was a small unrepresentative- now departed for the Tories- clique who mistakenly forced the issue at an Executive meeting in late 03).
This weblog is an interesting mirror on the real world of politics. In the real world the DUP used the brains and logic of Bob McCartney to build themselves up to a point where they could jettison him and his ilk. In Slugger world, the little newDUP apparatchiks used to squeal with delight with every witty anti ‘Purple Turtle’ post by Messrs ‘Rove’ ‘Rumsfeld’ and ‘Watchman’ and the self righteous preaching of an ex Cllr from Cow Town. You don’t hear much from the South Belfast candidate and MEP researcher now, do you? You guys were used, and now are an embarrassment to the new world DUP order.
For what it is worth the old worthies in the UUP are gradually being pensioned off, and younger, professional, articulate voices are coming through (see new officers Holmes and Cosgrove). It will be a long road back, but it will be worth the effort. As JEB has indicated your contribution would I believe be widely appreciated inside the party by the vast majority of active members. Oh aye and your purple nemesis has buggered off as you may have noticed.
BTW Darth, which was your favourite gig of ’95 at the Ulster Hall… on second thoughts no need to answer.
Out of concealment
Blank and stark eyed
Why so uncertain
This culture deceives
Prophesised, brainwashed
Tomorrow’s demise
Stuart
you were great at the Ulster Hall- though I thought it was 1996-ah the old brain gets muddled. And I’m dorry I thought that “Republican party reptile” was an aspirational anthem and not denouncing the selfish capitalist rednecks..er like me.
er again-”an ex Cllr from Cow Town”. Is not Cowtown the metropolis formerly known as Ballymoney?
“You don’t hear much from the South Belfast candidate and MEP researcher now, do you?”- I think he still answers the phone for Mon General at Chateau Allister les deux eglises
“You guys were used, and now are an embarrassment to the new world DUP order.”
Probably. Not for the first time either. But I’m not in the DUP, and at least I did make a few quid from flogging “Don’t blame me I voted No” badges to YUs and other grumpies in your party
“For what it is worth the old worthies in the UUP are gradually being pensioned off, and younger, professional, articulate voices are coming through (see new officers Holmes and Cosgrove).”
Ah but they’re not.
John White, president, aged 103
Jim Wilson Chief Executive retread aged late 60s
Lord Dum(gl)ass- treasurer
Tom Fleming-deppity treasurer in his eighties
Joan Carson???!! ye Gods!
And since when did the party officers wield any real power? It’s the MLAs,stupid.And even Alliance has more talent in its team.
“He came like a hero
from the factory floor
With the son and moon his gift
But the only son you ever saw
were the two he left you with
Ohoh where did the feeling go?
Ohoh I never felt so low”
(Obviously a prophesy of Junior and Rev. Kyle…
I’ll get me sash)
Stuart Adamson,
Thanks for the offer, but if the YU blog reflects the new young talent allegedly on the rise within the UUP, I won’t bother, if that’s all right with you. Whilst I appreciate that a healthy party values debate at all levels, the thought of long debates on why you shouldn’t have pacts with the PUP, etc., is just too depressing.
And when you look at the Lady Sylvia and Tank Commander groupies, you realise just how far the UUP has drifted from its old character.