Alex Salmond has suggested that Scotland going independent is not a one way street but reversible. In what is seen as an attempt to ease concerns about the SNP ahead of the Scottish elections he has suggested that a vote for independence could be overturned by a later referendum.
I’ve been catching up on some reading, recently. Most pleasantly surprised by John Drennan’s latest opus from Gill and Macmillan, Cute Hoors and Pious Protestors… It’s early days yet, but I was struck by this paragraph, part of a dissection of Fianna Fail near the beginning: One of the more fatal consequences of our colonial [...] read our review »
If you want to get a flavour of the proceedings at the Political Studies Association conference on its opening day, then the Storify collation below will bring you some of the images, tweets and sounds of the day. Particular highlights included: the Opening Plenary with David Blunkett, Peter Riddell and Matthew Flinders; and the late [...] read our review »
It’s not published until 3rd March, but one book I recommend you place an advance order for from Slugger’s Bookstore is James Harkin’s Niche. Belfast émigré Harkin examines a number of stories from business, culture and politics and comes to a single insight: everywhere the broad middle is collapsing. He offers Woolworths as an iconic exemplar [...] read our review »
So Labour claim this will be a constitutional “hokey-cokey”.
You put your left leg in, out, shake it all about etc.
Widely believed by serious Catholics to be a skit on the transubstantiation ceremony “Hoc et Corpus” -This is My Body-claimed in the Roman Catholic Mass.
Watch out for further Catholic drift from Labour to SNP.
“Alex Salmond in stating the obvious shocker!”
decisions made by the people can be reversed? Wow. Who’d have thunk it? Oh, that’s right – didn’t the Scottish Parliament of a bygone era reverse its independent state already? And this is supposed to be news?
fair-deal I like the way you presented the thread, its a controversial topic for the Scots, and you avoided winding anyone up.
I’m glad Alex has softened his rhetoric, once in Westminster he was called last to speak on the subject of getting the PM to have a debate on Iraq.
He blew it by fog-horning. It was so sad to see a good opportunity wasted, by bluster; everyone knew the arguements, but he couldn’t resist playing “the big I am ” card.
a softer heartier appeal would have swung the waverers. Alex is Labour’s best card !
AM
“decisions made by the people can be reversed? Wow. Who’d have thunk it?”
Those who have ‘thunk’ about it realise it is unlikely to be such a straightforward proposition.
The issue is who are ‘the people’. The choice for Scotland to leave is up to the Scottish people but where does it say a return to the UK has the same franchise?
The full incorporation of Scotland into the Union in 1707 needed two acts of parliament, one in Scotland and one in England. Also under the Belfast Agreement, a United Ireland requires a positive vote both in NI and the RoI, not simply a NI vote.
good tactics maybe, but the second referendum would raise an interesting question: Would England have Scotland back?
Which makes one think NI unionists in the event of NI leaving the Union will try to negotiate some kind of fasttrack return ticket to the Union.
Meanwhile Unionists will continue to make themselves as unappealing as possible to the ROI electorate such that an All Ireland referendum on NI’s status could be defeated from across the border.
McGrath, and your point is??????
Why on earth would Unionists want to make themselves appealing to a terrorist loving and supporting foreign countries electorate (the ROI) and why would they not want those foreigners to vote against this part of the U.K. becoming part of a foreign country?
yes but if the UK is coming apart at the seams then how will this affect unionism in that the uk would be just wales and england, the union jack would look quite different as it would loose its Scottish flag element. would unionism have a point in being after that since the uk came into being as a union between the 3 countries of britain, wales and england being already united it was scotlands royal connection with england that brought the uk into existance. The union jack was originally only for use at sea. The real original union jack of course did not include any flag supposedly relating to ireland.
.
McGrath
It could be argued that the Non Iron majority are the brand leaders – but possibly coming a close 2nd behind the Boers – at making themselves unpopular to the outside world.
Anyway a UI is wanted in spite of this majority not because of it – though dont expect any political party to admit this.
It’s a question I’ve always wondered about in relation to here in Northern Ireland too.
The SDLP talk about how the institutions of the Agreement would continue in to any possible ‘united’ Ireland arrangement – I presume this would mean that once a ‘united’ Ireland had been established, the Principle of Consent would continue to hold, and the voters of Northern Ireland would have the right to opt out of any united Ireland at a future point – a bit like the situation with Quebec and Canada today.
If the Principle of Consent were to continue after a ‘united’ Ireland then every seven years NI would have the right to vote for independence or to vote for returning to the Union.
Or would nationalists prefer a chinese finger-trap style of “unity” where “once you’re in you’ll never be allowed to escape”?
(I suspect the latter, but then this is not a message which would help them win any consent referendum in the first place!)
It is ridiculous to claim an Independant Scotland could simply decide it wanted to re-enter the UK if things went wrong. What dis-respect for the English.
The real failure lies with the supposed ‘Unionist’ politicians who seem incapable of defining what the UK is for. Just like unionism in N. Ireland the pro-union parties on the mainland focus on what divides them as opposed to putting the union first.
The UK is the most successful social and cultural political model of the last four centuries. It has survived by adapting to the ever changing social, cultural and ethnic mix of its population. It provides us with institutions that though not perfect have been copied throughout the world. And most important of all it no matter how ridiculous/crooked/inept some our leaders may have been the UK always proves itself bigger, better and stronger than any individual. Why else would Bertie be falling over himself to address parliament? Remember 1906, 1816 or maybe 1915…….you know the GPS, VSO…..anyway it will never be forgotten.
David
This British habit of telling everybody that they are the best in world at things is probably best kept solely for a British audience.
To describe the UK as ‘sucessful’ given that from an Irish perspective it has been marked by a series of disaters and rebellions, social strife and forced partition resulting in a sectarian statelet is stretching things a bit. But I suppose with Non Iron half-run by people who want out of the UK and the Jock straps possibly about to do a runner I suppose a bit of rose-tinted nostalgia is understandable.
David,
During the Irish famine when the whole of Ireland was part of the UK a calculated policy of genocide was carried out leading to the loss of a quarter of the population.Something similar ,on a smaller scale, was done to Scotland during the highland clearances.Looks like this chicken may be coming home to roost.
In what situation would an independent Scotland want to re-join the UK? When it all ballsed up for them that’s when and Alex Salmond reckons England will welcome them back with open arms! More ridiculous claims by the SNP, they really are a bunch of idiots.
,Why on earth would Unionists want to make themselves appealing to a terrorist loving and supporting foreign countries electorate
A trite mendacious, hate-engendered, and self-serving myth.As alluded to above 50 years (1922 -1972 ) of unionist misrule turned NI into a sectarian slum without parallel in postwar Western Europe.
Listening , down through the years ,to anti-ROI bile from the less sane sections of unionism reminds me of the rantings of a termagent labouring under the self-congartulatory delusion that the guy next door actually fancies her.
Aisling you have no right to pull anyone up for promoting a “trite mendacious, hate-engendered, and self-serving myth” after describing the famine as a “calculated policy of genocide.”
Back on topic, Diluted Orange is right. If Scotland leave it’ll almost certainly be a one-way trip. If it goes well they’ll have no reason to come back. If it goes badly, will the voters in what remains of the UK be keen to let them back in (and subsidise them accordingly to help fix the country they messed up by leaving)? I think not. Further, I think Alex Salmond is well aware of this but wishes to promote this mythical comfort blanket to trick the electorate. And to think on another thread it was me being chided for thinking the electorate were thick!
“Aisling you have no right to pull anyone up for promoting a “trite mendacious, hate-engendered, and self-serving myth†after describing the famine as a “calculated policy of genocide.—
You are right, it was an ignorant and fuckwittery policy of genocide. Also more successfully applied to India.
“Back on topic, Diluted Orange is right. If Scotland leave it’ll almost certainly be a one-way trip. If it goes well they’ll have no reason to come back. If it goes badly, will the voters in what remains of the UK be keen to let them back in (and subsidise them accordingly to help fix the country they messed up by leaving)? I think not.”
Actually, I think if it goes badly, Scotland would be much less likely to want back in and would probably want to plow on. Countries that have Independence tend not to want to give it up, and with the EU, there isn’t that much difference anyway. But it isn’t inconceivable that in the negotiations for Independence, a timescale for changing their mind could be put in.
Being on the southern side of the border (just), I have mixed feelings about the uk. True, they really shafted the “Paddys” in the nineteenth century and before. (considering the “are irish white?” debates of the 1890′s, which are racist for so many reasons) But then again culturally speaking, I think I’m blessed daily by being able to watch the BBC (best tv in the world), and share what pretty much is the same culture. Hmmmm………….
The question could be asked, Prince John, whether or not the BBC, run from Shepherds Bush, accurately reflects “British” culture, or is a major force in defining, refining, and homogenising it and indeed destroying parts of it.
Remember: whatever you watch, and whatever you hear was, in the final analysis, bought and okayed by a middleclass English person.
You get your ‘national’ news….
Ah, and now here’s the news where you are.
Good evening, I’m Mark Carruthers. A man fell off his bike today in Glengormley……
As a Scot,I’ve got no major problems with the Union and I’m quite happy to remain in it.Now I’m not saying we couldn’t survive as an independent country, on the contrary with the right polices(not the SNP’s or the SSP’s ones)we would do well.But I believe we can do even better working within the UK, political and economic integration not isolation is the way forward !
But what I’m surprised at is,I would have thought that people would have used the Union as an example to promote the idea of some form of a united Ireland.If Scotland and England can keep hold of their identities,both cultural and as a nation but can still work and co-exists together in some union even after all of our bloody history and wars,with the atrocities we have committed against each other and the various other nasty stuff we have done.Scotlands even the only country in the world that has invaded England more than once.You would have thought people would say look they can do it why can’t we ?
Paid.
Aye, you may be right there!
Though I did just watch a great BBC one concert with cat stevens. Fantastic! Yeah, the news is definately biased towards southern english DIY enthusiasts. Still. Feel an affinity with the average english man. Though it hurts! 
Interesting idea, teach. Though I think scotland suffered under the union in the bygone days too. The highland clearances surely must have an effect? Is there no residual feeling about that? I would be interested to know!
It took 2-3 decades before the benefits of the Union were truly felt in Scotland.So there was a lot of misgivings at that time.But things turned out for the better with Scottish Enlightenment etc,etc. As for the Highland clearances,I don’t realy see what that has to do with the Union.Rich Scottish landowners moving poor Scottish tennents off the land to make way for sheep was a terrible act carried out in the name of greed.It really has nothing to do with the Union.
I see. That makes sense. Cheers! Just that the union here meant the end of our parliament and reinforcement of the penal laws (albeit briefly). What were the benefits to scotland of the union, teach?
Thanks to the UK Scotland changed from the poorest country in Europe with no real future to a country that lead the world in philosophical thought and innovations (Scottish Enlightenment) .This would not have happened if we had not joined together to form the Union ! Scotland reaped the economic benefits of free trade within the British Empire together with the intellectual benefits of having established Europe’s first public education system since classical times. Under these twin stimuli, Scottish thinkers began questioning assumptions previously taken for granted; and with Scotland’s traditional connections to France, then in the throes of the Enlightenment, the Scots began developing a uniquely practical branch of humanism to the extent that Voltaire said “We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation.”
In fact just look at what the Englishman Winston Churchill said about us”Of all the small nations on earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind.”
Our partnership in Britain gives Scotland a shared economic stability – the best foundation for growth.Today, growing family ties, deepening economic links and shared values mean that Scotland and England are more closely linked than ever before.
Over 300 years, we have built links which have strengthened us all. Links which are developing and which it would be (IMHO) folly to sever.But Britain shows that ancient nations like Scotland and England can gain strength from coming together while retaining and celebrating our own identities.
God help the poor Scotsman he’ll never be free,
Thank God we’re surrounded by water.
-Dominic Behan
Teach,
What happened to the spirit of Arbroath,1320:
Yet Robert himself, should he turn aside from the task that he has begun, and yield Scotland or us to the English King and people, we should cast out as the enemy of us all, as a subverter of our rights and of his own, and should choose another king to defend our freedom: for so long as a hundred of us are left alive, we will yield in no least way to English dominion. We fight not for glory nor for waelth nor honours; but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life.
The ‘landlords’ involved in the clearances BTW were mainly importrd English nobles.
I can’t understand the outlook of a section of our celtic cousins who seem to have sold their birthright for a mess of potage.
Posted by Aisling on Apr 30, 2007 @ 03:38 AM
370 years difference seems to be more pertinent to the Irish consciousness right now. Maybe in 2060 no one in what used to be NI will give a feck?
I got a good chuckle from a recent article posted on CiF, where the author proudly pointed out that no Scottish government would have gone to war in Iraq.
Hmmm the government that went to war in Iraq had a Scottish prime minister, a Scottish Foreign Secretary and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer, and could usually only command a majority in the House of Commons by manipulating its massive disproportionate majority of Scottish MPs. The forces deployed seemed to be disproportionately Scottish too.
Independence for England, keep us out of Scotland’s messy foreign wars!
>>Independence for England, keep us out of Scotland’s messy foreign wars!<<
Are you in character?
A commentator in the link has hit the nail on the head. This is merely Alex giving a common-sense answer to a hypothetical question. I could ask could Ireland return to the Union? If they voted for it, Aye, highly unlikely but possible.
One important point in the Holyrood campaign is that the SNP has managed to gather the support (if we believe the polls) of almost 40% of the electorate. That is despite the open hostility of the two main down market newspapers in the sun and record (labour news). Only one of the two main broadsheets seems to be even attempting to run with even handed stories.
Imagine the support the SNP might have if they had the backing of a newspaper.
We are used to some quite idiotic scare stories in the record, however just of late the sun has gave it some serious welly as only they know how. Outrageous headlines that of course bear little resemblance to the facts. I can only imagine that they have recieved orders from dahn sarf. So much for being the ‘Scottish sun’. An example was of an independent report released this week highlighting that Scotland would be much better off going it alone, lower deficit than UK etc… In it they also recomended that we should diversify and not rely on oil that could potentially run out in 10 years. I need not tell you what the headlines were.
We must really have them on the run!
Is it just me, or, in light of what is going on in Darfur and Iraq right now, does endless ruminating over unpleasant events that happened well out of memory of anyone today living, in some monumentally privileged parts of the EU in order to debate their consitutional status seem stunningly self-indulgent? People in Yorkshire don’t have a habit of bring up the Pilgrimage of Grace everytime they have a beef with London.
In any event, the prevaling attitude of “blame the English at all costs” evidenced by the “I can only imagine that they have recieved orders from dahn sarf” and “the landlords were English” type is largely the reason more English want Scotland out of the Union than Scots. If it’s so crap then go – the SNP has been around long enough for you to register a desire to.
Scottish Nationalism is like Anti-Zionism. As Alex Salmond has so frequently and correctly correctly pointed out Scottish Nationalism shouldn’t and needn’t necessarily have anything to do with Anglophobia. Similarly Anti-Zionism needn’t be Anti-Semetic. Sadly, in both cases, legitimate political viewpoints are simply used as a figleaf to cover what is in essence a racial prejudice.
Martin: “does endless ruminating over unpleasant events that happened well out of memory of anyone today living, in some monumentally privileged parts of the EU in order to debate their consitutional status seem stunningly self-indulgent? People in Yorkshire don’t have a habit of bring up the Pilgrimage of Grace everytime they have a beef with London.”
Excellent stuff Martin. And it also highlights the essentially elitist nature of the protagonists arguing over which bit of a massively rich part of the world they want to belong to most. The laws and customs of Ireland (North and South) England and Scotland are so similar – and all under a common EU umberella – that it must seem appallingly narcissitic to an outsider.
By seceding from the UK, Scotland would have a seat at the European table.
Alex Salmond’s point, that the people of Scotland should have the right to look for the return of the Westminister middleman if they don’t like the new seat, is quite reasonable.
Martin
In light of what’s going on in Iraq?
And what would happen if there were an independent Scotland voting with other EU members against this type of Anglo-American folly?
Would that be “stunningly self-indulgent”?
“Scottish Nationalism is like Anti-Zionism.â€
Is it racist of Scottish nationalists to think they could do a better job of running Scotland within the EU than the anachronistic Westminister?
As for there being racial prejudice, it’s a fair point, but that decreases in a post-colonial setting.
Just look at the republic. It’s amazing what three generations of not having to enter your neighbour’s house via the servant’s entrance coupled with the Celtic Tiger vindication of the self determination position will do to alter the national psyche.
DK
“The laws and customs of Ireland (North and South) England and Scotland are so similar – and all under a common EU umberella – that it must seem appallingly narcissitic to an outsider.â€
That’s the beauty of an umbrella: you can paint as many stripes on it as you wish and it’s still the same umbrella.
It just looks more colourful to the outsider.
Teach,
What happened to the spirit of Arbroath,1320:
Yet Robert himself, should he turn aside from the task that he has begun, and yield Scotland or us to the English King and people, we should cast out as the enemy of us all, as a subverter of our rights and of his own, and should choose another king to defend our freedom: for so long as a hundred of us are left alive, we will yield in no least way to English dominion. We fight not for glory nor for waelth nor honours; but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life.
The ‘landlords’ involved in the clearances BTW were mainly importrd English nobles.
I can’t understand the outlook of a section of our celtic cousins who seem to have sold their birthright for a mess of potage.
Posted by Aisling on Apr 30, 2007 @ 03:38 AM
I hate to break it to you Aisling but this is the 21st century and England are no longer our enemy . This election is about education , NHS , public services etc,etc not about being anti-Eniglish.Just the same as we had a major conflict with Germany in two World Wars but we don’t see them as an enemy now ! Incidentally just about half the population in Scotland,2.5 million people have family who are English,so it seems a bit silly to look at your own family as some sort of enemy ?
On the clearances,your point about the Landlords being English are,to put it bluntly a load of crap.As for the ‘Celtic’ thing.The whole celtic thing is a load of piss that was made up in the 18th century. Saying Scotland is ‘celtic’ makes a mockery of the rich and varied cultures , languages and peoples from our history , that made Scotland what it is today !
We have a saying used in Scotland today One Scotland Many Cultures, and not only is that true of modern Scotland but it’s even more so , when applied to our rich and diverse historical past !
For example, in the 9th century the area that is now Scotland had almost half a dozen different cultures speaking as many different languages divided up into even more different kingdoms. In the southwest they were speaking Cumbric (a Brythonic language closely related to Welsh), in the southeast they were speaking Old English, in the northeast they were speaking Pictish, in the far north they were speaking Norse, and in the west they were speaking Gaelic.
Don’t try and re-write my countries history to fit your own political agenda !
Wilde Rover –
On Iraq – “And what would happen if there were an independent Scotland voting with other EU members against this type of Anglo-American folly? ”
Probably exactly the same thing. The Yanks would have gone in without the British, as Rumsfeld pointed out at the time, and the fact that the overwhelming majority of EU nations opposed the invasion made not the slightest bit of difference. If the combined opposition of France, Germany and Russia did not stop the invasion. It’s Hubris to maintain that, even if an Independent Scotland had opposed the invasion, that would have stopped it.
I notice you fail to mention Darfur.
In any event my point referred to the constant recitation of centuries (in some cases millenia) old atrocities to present oneself as a victim in the same way as some poor individual in one of these countries. Even the poorest parts of the UK and Ireland, even at the hieght of the troubles even, are havens of peace and financial security compared to what is going on there. Any comparison, trying to make yourself a victim in the same vein, is sick.
“Is it racist of Scottish nationalists to think they could do a better job of running Scotland within the EU than the anachronistic Westminister?”
Absolutely not. As I made abundantly clear in my post Scottish nationalism needn’t be and shouldn’t be racist. Salmond is an impressive politician who has makes a great case for independence. It just often, even usually, is racist Anglophobic tripe in the mouths of people who use it as an excuse to bash the English.
“As for there being racial prejudice, it’s a fair point, but that decreases in a post-colonial setting. ”
I think the majority of English visitors to any part of Ireland would disagree with that. Irish people, as we find to our cost, are not slow at making their distate for English visitors more than apparent. Something that is sadly increasingly happening in Scotland too.
Don’t agree with much of that Teach. If the Union is so great for Scotland economically, why are we repeatedly told we need English subvention because we can’t support ourselves ‘economically?’ Also, I think the Enlightenment in some form would have occurred anyway. We also suffer the worst public health in the UK, have the most socially disadvantaged areas in the UK (i think 8 or 9 of the 12 most disadvantaged UK constituencies are in Scotland), and still have a lingering sectarian problem, though not as bad as Ulster obviously.
Martin,
Irish people, as we find to our cost, are not slow at making their distate for English visitors more than apparent.
Care to back up that claim with some facts? Otherwise you are merely showing that you possess a prejudice against the Irish.
You might like to have a read of this report on Irish attitutes towards the UK.
http://www.britishembassy.ie/news/Through%20Irish%20Eyes%20Interior.pdf
And if you have any surveys on British/English attitudes towards Ireland, I would be most interested as they seem to be thin on the ground.
Perhaps you could also give me your view on why over 4 million British tourists visited Ireland in 2006 and why hundreds of thousands live here. Are these people suckers for abuse?
Martin
**the overwhelming majority of EU nations opposed the invasion**
Overwhelming opposition? Don’t think so, out of seventeen EU nations, only four openly opposed the invasion; France, Germany, Belgium and Greece, six fully supported it, and the rest were ambiguous, two of them Sweden and Ireland actually lending tacit support to the invasion by their actions.
By enlargement a year later, the Coalition of the Willing could claim to represent almost half of the EU as well as a slim majority of NATO.
George,
I have no problem with Ireland, and the average Irish person’s hatred of the English may be considered justifiable given the history, but I would like to see some statistics as to the numbers of visitors from the UK who actually (a) return for a second visit and (b) are visiting family. And it is not illusiory…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/19/nbooth19.xml
And a selction of quote form this board…
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?s=7b4c8f2167437bcc0b9dbc14a30bb8ee&t=340153
“…my daughter (full Brit accent, age 14) got teased and bullied at School for being a Brit and was one of our key motivators to leave the country.”
“…At least in Dublin, being English can be a very difficult thing, you constantly face bitching and arrogant comments, I’ve been shouted at on the street several times just because they can hear my accent as I talk on the phone. From my experience, Irish people have quite a deep dislike of the Brits, and I have found it very difficult to gain any kind of friendship with Irish people.”
Anecdotally, and from experience if one has an English accent one keeps ones mouth shut in Ireland for fear of a volley of verbal abuse. Perhaps it is a vocal minoriy but mine and most people I know do not have the happy clappy experience promoted by the British Council in that report. Suggesting that a random poll of persons talking to a (presumably Irish) pollster overrides the actual experiences of actual English people is something of a stretch.
We can be A**eholes too, I admit, but quit the holier than thou rubbish.
I have no problem with Ireland, and the average Irish person’s hatred of the English may be considered justifiable given the history
Martin, im sure there are English people who have experienced verbal and probably physical abuse in the ROI. Every country has its fair share of small minded people.
However, to imply that the average Irish person has a hatred of the English is just not true. If the average Irish person had a hatred for the English, then why would programmes like Coronation St, East Enders, Emmerdale, X Factor, Strictly come Dancing and so on be so popular in the ROI. Why would the English football teams be supported so strongly in the ROI. Why would so many Irish people travel to the UK both for holidays and weekend trips, why would English companies be so successful in the ROI.
The list goes on and on. I just cant see the proof that the average Irish person has a hatred of the English.
The union jack was originally James Stuart.
“Anecdotally, and from experience if one has an English accent one keeps ones mouth shut in Ireland for fear of a volley of verbal abuse. Perhaps it is a vocal minoriy but mine and most people I know do not have the happy clappy experience promoted by the British Council in that report. Suggesting that a random poll of persons talking to a (presumably Irish) pollster overrides the actual experiences of actual English people is something of a stretch.”
Suggesting anecdotal evidence beats out actual research when talking about generalities is a bit of a stretch more like.
Mr Booth himself says in the telegraph article
The anti-English sentiments, he said, were isolated incidents and they had been touched by the support and gifts they received from the local people when their car was vandalised.
Martin,
I’m not being holier than thou, I’m pointing out the innate prejudice in your previous post where you said:
Irish people, as we find to our cost, are not slow at making their distate for English visitors more than apparent.
Do you feel you have justified that comment by wheeling out some very flimsy anecdotal evidence to back up your claim?
This can be done for every argument.
For me, you are merely looking for sources to back up an uninformed, preconceived view (aka prejudice) rather than finding out what the reality is.
The reality is that there have been over 20 million UK visitors to Ireland since 2000 and a quarter of a million British people, far and away our largest immigrant population, live here quite happily.
I would like you perhaps to present the number of cases of ant-British racial discrimination there have been before the Irish courts especially in the area of employment.
What form does any harrassment of our largest minority take?
Are they the butt end of jokes?
Has it prevented them from achieving in Ireland what they would have achieved in Britain?
Is our British minority concentrated amongst the most deprived?
Are English men more likely to be unemployed?
What is their life expectancy compared to the host population?
What percentage of the prison population do they make up?
Or perhaps there are cases of maltreatment of British citizens by the GardaÃ, Irish welfare system or when looking for housing and health benefits?
These are the indicators that generally show if there is a widespread prejudice against and ill-feeling towards a particular group in society and these are the indicators I would expect you to present to back up such a comment.
If that makes me holier than thou, so be it.
The whole “Irish hate the English” thing is blown way out of proportion. I’m English, have been a few times to Ireland and never really had a problem. One or two of the locals were cold to me but then others were friendlier and more helpful than they needed to be. You need to look at the whole picture rather than just picking out the negative points.
George,
I was talking about tourists but to answer your questions.
What form does any harrassment of our largest minority take? – Verbal, sometimes physical
Are they the butt end of jokes? – Yes
Has it prevented them from achieving in Ireland what they would have achieved in Britain? – Mass immigration westward accross the Irish Sea is a comparatively recent phenominon and it is thus too early to say.
Is our British minority concentrated amongst the most deprived? – No, but then Social Security and the NHS in Britain have a wider coverage than in the ROI, so deprived individuals have more of an incentive to move the short distance back home.
Are English men more likely to be unemployed? – Probably not
What is their life expectancy compared to the host population? – Again, too early to say.
What percentage of the prison population do they make up? – No idea
Or perhaps there are cases of maltreatment of British citizens by the GardaÃ, Irish welfare system or when looking for housing and health benefits? – Yes, some, I have provided indications of discrimination in the job market above, in terms of benefits there is less incentive to move to the ROI looking for them as (generally but not always) similar or more generous benefits can be found at home.
I think the point you are trying to make there is that these are indicators that traditionally have been high amongst the Irish population in Britain. That kind of misses the point. We are comparing apples with oranges. In any event such discrimination they did not stop people coming from Ireland to Britain looking for work when the economic outlook in Ireland was not as rosey as it is now.
But that does not make such immigrants, as you might say, “happy” in being so discriminated against, just looking for work as that was the way the economic tide flowed. Now the tide has changed direction somewhat people will cross the Irish Sea in the other direction and acts of casual racism are just as likely. People are not “happy” – just glad to be in a job. Do you have quality of life statistics to back up a very bold claim?
Number of claims before a Tribunal/Labour Court is no indicator of prejudice. An English person making such a complaint would be laughed out of court wherever such a complaint were made anywhere on these Islands.
I would not presume to lecture an Irish person on the undoubtedly prevalent racism over here. Equally, I do not think, unless you are English, you are in any way qualified to comment on what is a sadly common occurance for the most innofensive of tourists from England in both parts of Ireland.
What did you ask a student at UU with a Manchester accent?
“What part of Donegal are you from?”
what’s this got to do with Scotland?
Could be historic elections – Lib Dems key to progress but Alex has been clever – promising a referendum at a specific time. Difficult to understand why Nicol Stephen etc reject this – it’s democracy ain’t it ?
Martin
What evidence do you have that my countrymen’s desire to be a sovereign nation again is based on anti-Englishness? The following is an absolutely disgraceful statement!
>>Scottish Nationalism is like Anti-Zionism. As Alex Salmond has so frequently and correctly correctly pointed out Scottish Nationalism shouldn’t and needn’t necessarily have anything to do with Anglophobia. Similarly Anti-Zionism needn’t be Anti-Semetic. Sadly, in both cases, legitimate political viewpoints are simply used as a figleaf to cover what is in essence a racial prejudice.
Posted by Martin on Apr 30, 2007 @ 06:55 AM<<
Where the hell do you get of using Alex Salmond’s name to peddle this tosh. What a small minded person you must be to imagine that my Nationalism or anyone I know is based on racial prejudice. I would suggest you know nothing about the the SNP or Scottish Nationalism, however that is patently obvious.
In the last week the so called Scottish Sun has exploded with ant-Nationalist nonsense where before they were not. The difference is astonishing. By making an educated guess, that the ownership of the sun newspaper, (who are indeed ‘dahn sarf’) have decided to attack the SNP due to a decision taken in London is somehow anti-English. Wow that is some leap!
Teach
I think you will find that although many of the landowners were Scots in name, most if not all would have been culturally English. Previous generations having been educated in England and taking English wives ensured that many ‘chiefs’ of clans had no links or affinity with their kinfolk apart from collecting the rents. The way that these people were treated was disgraceful. Although not comparable with the Irish genocide in scale, it resulted in thousands of deaths and displacement on a scale that still today the emotional scars have not healed.