Alex Salmond has suggested that Scotland going independent is not a one way street but reversible. In what is seen as an attempt to ease concerns about the SNP ahead of the Scottish elections he has suggested that a vote for independence could be overturned by a later referendum.
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It’s not published until 3rd March, but one book I recommend you place an advance order for from Slugger’s Bookstore is James Harkin’s Niche. Belfast émigré Harkin examines a number of stories from business, culture and politics and comes to a single insight: everywhere the broad middle is collapsing. He offers Woolworths as an iconic exemplar [...] read our review »
I actually think you’ll find that being educated in England and having an English wife doesn’t make you any less of a Scotsman ! The facts are plain ans simple,the vast majority of the Landlords were Scottish.Where people like yourself get mixed up is the fact that these Scottish landlords hired ‘Factors’ mostly from the Lowlands and some from England because they had the experience of making sheep farming profitable.There’s no doubt some of the tactics of these ‘Factors’ were deplorable but trying to paint it as the ‘big bad English’ forcing the Scots from their land is not only historically wrong but is also morally wrong to blame some other nation for something we did ourselves !
For the people that don’t know,a ‘Factor’ in Scotland is like an estate manager.
What Irish genocide are you talking about ?
Who gives a damn about the highland clearances.
The fact remains, it takes balls to take control of your own destiny.
Grow a set of balls Scotland, no guts, no glory!
So I take it from your point of view that if Northern Ireland formed some sort of union with the republic that means they don’t have the balls to take control of their own destiny ?
Prince Eoghan
There are no doubt many positive reasons people become Scot Nats.
However, Anglophobia is one of the negative reaons some do. Your patronising assumption that it was the English who decided that the Sun (owned, in fact, by an Australian who currenly holds a US passport, not an Englishman) was to hold an anti-nationalist line, and your adoption of some cod stereotyped “cockney” accent in your post leads me, not unreasonably, to hold you an Anglophobe.
You probably are a Scot Nat for the best reasons. Your post pointed, sadly, to dislike of the English which led me to believe it was for one of the worst.
Teach.
Do you not accept that for succeeding generations that Scottish landlords were sending their children to be educated in England, becoming culturally English and marrying English wives?
My point was that for a millennia chieftains lived with their people not over them. The onset of the Union of crowns was the beginning of the disentanglement with the people and their leaders. They became alien to each other in ways unthinkable a hundred years previously.
>>trying to paint it as the ‘big bad English’ forcing the Scots from their land is not only historically wrong but is also morally wrong to blame some other nation for something we did ourselves !<<
Why are you and Martin so keen to label every point as being anti-English? We did not do it! Anglo-Scots with no affinity to their own people done it! I’m sorry that the facts do not suit your agenda, but telling the truth is not, repeat NOT being anti-English. Enough nonsense already!
BTW Teach what is your take on Martin’s assertion that myself and potentially 40% of the Scottish voting public are nothing but racists?
Cahal.
Go home quickly, your village is missing an eedjit.
Prince Eoghan
PS read the post. As I said you don’t have to be an Anglophobe to be a Scot Nat. It just’s just an established fact that many are. This is backed up by this report which shows that Scottish nationalists are more likely to be Anglophobic than other Scots.
http://www.devolution.ac.uk/pdfdata/Briefing%2024%20-%20Hussain-Miller.pdf
Equally, Anti-Zionists are more likely to be Anti-Semetic than others, although politically there is not necessarily any correlation.
Martin.
Having read your previous posts you can lecture no-one on patronising assumptions, believe me!
>>You probably are a Scot Nat for the best reasons. Your post pointed, sadly, to dislike of the English which led me to believe it was for one of the worst.<<
I made an educated guess, anyway why would Murdoch’s Nationality be a factor in any decisions by a pro-union English management of the ‘Scottish Sun’? I also used a common expression ‘dahn sarf’ from this you deduced I was anti-English! Gie’s peace!
You are not a hanging judge by any chance are you?
Again, where do you get off accusing a large section of my countrymen as racist? What evidence do you have of this?
Martin.
Are you saying this backs your position that Scots Nationalists are racist English haters?
The report states that those with lower education are more likely to show signs of Anglo-phobia. A quarter of English people have experienced Anglo-phobia. I would love to see a comparable study about Scots in England, I really would. I mean would being called a Jock count?
In every country in the world those with lower education standards are more likely to be anti-something. The level in Scotland is quite low. This study certainly does not back up your outrageous claims Martin.
Prince Eoghan
I disagree. I have never stated that all Scot Nats are racist English haters. Merely that many are. The study backs me up clearly at page 1 –
“Having a strong Scottish identity has hardly any impact on Islamophobia, but asignificant impact on Anglophobia”
And at page 3 –
“Scottish nationalism – with either a small ‘n’ or a capital ‘N’ has more impact on Anglophobia”
And at page 4 -
“Scottish identity comes close to rivalling low levels of education as an influencetowards Anglophobia.”
So yes, Scot Nats are often Anglophobes, as I have said all along.
I totally agree Clan Chiefs who ordered the Highland Clearances.Had taken up the ways of the Lowland Scots and the English.And started to see the profits to be made from the land rather than looking after the people.But I fail to see how the Union can get blamed solely for peoples greed.I took your comments as anti-English because iof the way you presented them,you might not have intended to blame the English but that’s the way it comes across with your constant referral to people being educated in England and people marrying English wifes etc,etc….
As for Martins points I have to say I agree with you.The SNP is not a racists party and the majority of people aren’t anti-English,but in saying that quite a few people I’ve talked to who are voting SNP are doing it because of antiEnglish sentiments.A good example I will give is a political discussion I was having abut the election recently there was two people who said they were voting SNP.When I asked what they thought of the economic polices of the SNP both of them said they didn’t know what they were,with one of they further adding he was actually an SSP supporter and was voting for the SNP as a ‘means to an end’.When I asked him what he meant he said he was only voting for the SNP to break up the Union and get away from the English ! Which to me anyway came across as somebody voting just because of anti-English sentiments ! But I will also add I have also come across the other side of the coin were people are only voting to maintain the Union due to religious views etc,etc
In fact I think you’ll agree when it comes to the majority of people in Scotland we aren’t like the people I talked about above, we all just want what’s best for our country we just have different views in how to achieve it.And even though I might not agree with your opinion it’s refreshing to talk to someone with a bit of intelligence who knows what they’re talking about.I believe that political diversity is a good thing in democracy,it enables more people to be involved in their country.
Here’s a couple of SNP party political brodcasts………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ommSSZaKzbQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csCexYYUhow
only joking……….;p
Martin,
I am still waiting for you to provide actual hard evidence for your claims.
Show me evidence that the 20 million British people who have visited Ireland since 2000 have been victims of what you claim. Explain why the numbers coming from Britain keeps growing and why it surpassed 4 million for the first time in 2006.
Explain why a survey by Norwich Union found Ireland as the safest location for British tourists.
Explain why more and more British are emigrating to Ireland.
Surely if it’s as prevalent as you claim there should be some figures available of tourists not returning etc. Surely some survey must have been done, some report commissioned?
Show me concrete evidence of the widespread discrimination, abuse and prejudice you seem to feel is out there.
what is a sadly common occurance for the most innofensive of tourists from England in both parts of Ireland
Prove what you say don’t repeat it.
Ok George. Yes, you love us, there is no ill-feeling towards the English whatsoever. It’s all one huge f***ing love in.
Getting hit from both sides on this one.
Hope the SNP do well, for purely selfish reasons. If Scotland leaves, unionism is dead in Ireland.
Would independence benefit Scotland? Suck it and see.
Teach.
Could not getting away from the English equate to Us being a nation and standing on our own two feet without being ruled from England? Of course it could! You really seem to be equating every possible thing with Anglophobia, c’mon man get rid of the agenda! The clearances were carried out by essentially a foreign people culturally to the highlanders, that they happened to be Anglocentric is a matter of historical record. I don’t feel the need to dress up the facts to suit anyone’s sensitivities.
I will guarantee you that for every one voter who has the slightest whiff anti-Englishness about them there is 10 who will vote for the Union due to anti-Catholicism, which you have already alluded to. Myself, I come from a long line of Labour voters who wishes to live in my own country ruled by my own countrymen, and certainly not as a forgotten region of a failed UK. We have everything at our disposal to be a highly successful nation. Let’s just get on with it. Myself and some of my family will vote SNP on thursday, others will in the main not be voting Labour.
Martin.
>>Scottish Nationalism is like Anti-Zionism. As Alex Salmond has so frequently and correctly correctly pointed out Scottish Nationalism shouldn’t and needn’t necessarily have anything to do with Anglophobia. Similarly Anti-Zionism needn’t be Anti-Semetic. Sadly, in both cases, legitimate political viewpoints are simply used as a figleaf to cover what is in essence a racial prejudice.
Posted by Martin on Apr 30, 2007 @ 06:55 AM< <
Seems pretty clear to me Martin. You then claim:
>>I disagree. I have never stated that all Scot Nats are racist English haters. Merely that many are.<<
An outrageous statement in itself, as far as your survey goes it paints Scots in quite a good light, I’m positive you will find more Anglophobia in France. Again I would love to see a comparable survey of Scots in England, now that would shine a light! Only a quarter of English people (your survey) have experienced Anglophobia. Surely according to your offensive claims they would all have been run out of town, no?
As an Englishman martin were you proud that a majority of English people do not want a Scots PM?
I believe that we in Scotland have the potential to be on very good terms with our English neighbours. However being categorised as Anglo-phobic just because we wish to be in control of our own affairs, smacks of petulance and ignorance.
Martin,
My point was that people in the republic used to really hate the English.
Now everyone is wrapped in a love/hate thing.
I believe it’s what my sister might refer to as “cuteâ€.
My argument concerning “this type of Anglo-American folly†was hypothetical. I was merely speculating as to what a future independent Scotland might do if faced with such a scenario.
And even if Scotland, Northern Ireland, and by some wild leap of the imagination, Wales, were to secede from the UK they wouldn’t be going anywhere, really.
They would still be part of the same union, along with England and the Republic of Ireland, and the rest.
And when a vote came up that concerned the European Isles, there would be five votes to play with instead of two.
you’re all giving Martin too hard a time. He tried to couch what he said in caveats.
As an englishman who has visited Ireland about twenty times without any particular issues (i tend to go the west coast) I can’t support his contention about a lot of Anti-English prejudice. However I think he expresses this view sincerely – even saying it is understandable!
As for our Scottish Brethren, I think the main pushes for independence are the shoddy historic way the English have treated Scotland rather than current vacancies. Having said that if I was the Scots I’d be looking at the recent behaviour of the ROI and thinking if they can do it – why not us?
Staying in the Union – an unequal partnership – despite the way it benefits some Scottish individuals – may be safer than independence but surely it will forever put a brake on what Scotland can achieve.
>>Staying in the Union – an unequal partnership – despite the way it benefits some Scottish individuals – may be safer than independence but surely it will forever put a brake on what Scotland can achieve.<<
Never a truer word!
An alternative union of Ireland and Scotland? Just to throw that out there. What do you all think?
An alternative union of Ireland and Scotland? Just to throw that out there. What do you all think?
This one was actually flirted with by the most fanatical republican of them all, Ruairi O’Bradaigh
Another quote from the Dominic Behan poem:
The Scots have their whisky, the Welsh have their speech
And their poets are paid about ten pence a week
Provided no hard words on England they speak
Oh Lord! What a price for devotion!
Prince Eoghan
As I said many times there are many positive reasons to be Scot Nats. I have also agree with you there is much Anti-Scottish sentiment in England. That is not what we are discussing. My countrymen can be the most appaling racists. However, so can yours.
I simply stated in my original post that Scottish Nationalism, IN ITSELF A LEGITIMATE (EVEN LAUDABLE POLITICAL VIEWPOINT), is used by SOME nationalists as a figleaf for Anglophobia. SOME Nationalists. Not all. You will search in vain for any evidence I have said that. In my opening quote I approvingly speak of the leader of the SNP.
If you want to deliberately misrepresent what I am saying that is up to you. As the survey I quote clearly says “Scottish nationalism – with either a small ‘n’ or a capital ‘N’ has more impact on Anglophobiaâ€. Many, but not all SNP voters are Anglophobes, many, but not all, Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites. I maintain my original contention that legitimate political viewpoints sometimes gather unfortunate fellow travellers.
If you want more evidence of this see this link which provides a summary of a monograph which states…
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oso/1306561/2006/00000001/00000001/art00004;jsessionid=2p4nu4m87qm1s.alice
” Conservative voters scored low on Anglophobia but high on every other phobia; SNP voters scored high on Anglophobia but not on other phobias. ”
Your wish to be in control of your own affairs is laudable and understandable. The fact that your political views carry some less than desirable fellow travellers is well research and well attested.
Sorry, broken link, try this
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oso/1306561/2006/00000001/00000001/art00004;jsessionid=2p4nu4m87qm1s.alice
Can get this to work. The citation for my above quote is…
The Auld Enemy
Authors: Hussain, Asifa; Miller, William
Source: Multicultural Nationalism, July 2006, pp. 66-84(19)
Publisher: Oxford Scholarship Online Monographs
Abstract:
Questions in the 2003 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey were used to compare Islamophobia with four other Scottish phobias: sectarianism (primarily anti-Catholic), and phobias about Europe, Asylum seekers, and ‘the auld enemy’(England). Social factors affected all phobias the same way, but political factors discriminated. Conservative voters scored low on Anglophobia but high on every other phobia; SNP voters scored high on Anglophobia but not on other phobias. This suggested that Anglophobia itself displaced Islamophobia by providing another target, and that England itself helped reduce within-Scotland phobias by providing Scots with a common, external and very significant ‘other’. Scotland is too small, too peripheral, and too insignificant to play a corresponding role in displacing phobias within England. However, by stimulating English nationalism without providing a truly significant ‘other’, Scottish nationalism may actually increase Islamophobia in England, but not in Scotland.
Sorry for the link not working
I find it quite ironic that Teach says “Don’t try and re-write my countries history to fit your own political agenda” give he/she is doing the same thing. It would indeed be hard to blame the Union for the Highland Clearances but it is equally hard to believe an independent Scottish Parliament would have sat idly by and allowed/encouraged the Clearances. More to the point the ethnic cleansing of the Highlands in 1746 by the British army (with many Scots to the fore) can hardly go down as an example of the benefits of the Union. Nor can the best blood of the Highlands over the next century being forced into service for British imperial wars abroad whilst their families were evicted at home be seen as a benefit. Look at the scattered population of the Highlands, and the state of Gaelic now, compared to 1707. He/she is also wrong to speak of Gaelic being a peripheral language in 9th century Scotland, it was the founding langauge of the nation and wasnt just spoken in the West.
Now Im not saying any of this should effect how we vote in 2006, ancient history now, but Teach is wrong to try and brush it all under the carpet. Don’t try and re-write my countries history to fit your own political agenda indeed!
Domhnall Ban
I do believe that there is some kind of agenda going on with these ludicrous attempts to paint us as anti-English and racists.
Martin
You are floundering big style! your offensive remarks are a matter of record, re-claiming some, most whatever won’t wash. All you can prove from one small survey by glasgow Uni is that there is heightened Anglophobia amongst SNP supporters. If Scots have a low level of Anglophobia in general, would a slightly higher level amount to much? I doubt it! Also only a quarter of English resident in Scotland reported feeling any kind of Anglophobia, again I’d bet that the number of Scots racially abused in England would dwarf this. So I would urge you to get real.
>>My countrymen can be the most appaling racists. However, so can yours.< <
This is another appalling statement! I really am on the verge of not taking you seriously anymore Martin. I am positive we have arseholes here in fact I know two that are BNP members, for you to suggest comparison of scale is totally erroneous!
Let's say that my local union of Catholic mothers put out a motion supporting family values in decrying gay adoption. Would you label all, most, some mothers or indeed some, most, all Catholics as homophobic gay haters? I would take the view that they are trying to push family values. You have taken the desire Of Scots to become a nation again and labelled it anti-English racism. You are completely and utterly wrong, instead of backsliding Martin why don't you just gie's peace.
>>In my opening quote I approvingly speak of the leader of the SNP.< <
Correction Martin you used Mr Salmond to push your agenda;
>>As Alex Salmond has so frequently and correctly pointed out Scottish Nationalism shouldn’t and needn’t necessarily have anything to do with Anglophobia.<<
Will you state categorically if you think Mr Salmond believes that Scottish Nationalism has anything to do with Anglophobia as you try to suggest. I suspect you will need to practice with those veils to pull this one of Martin. I won’t wish you luck.
Martin, you will have noticed I have spent a long frustrating time dealing with this issue, I would much rather speak about future relationships. Plans must be put in place for us to help you once England gains independence, without Scottish money for example how will you guys cope? Oh fuck I’ve mentioned the English, what a racist scumbag i am!
Domhnall Ban
“it is equally hard to believe an independent Scottish Parliament would have sat idly by and allowed/encouraged the Clearances”
Why? The selfsame landowners would have formed the bulk of the aforementioned Parliament. Hardly going to vote against their own interests, were they?
Prince,
You, deliberately or otherwise, misundertand me, and misrepresent my position. Perhaps I may have been unclear, is so I apologise. For clarity my position is as follows –
1) Scottish Nationalism as a philosphy and a political belief (in the abstract) has nothing to do with Anglophobia. Alex Salmond is NOT an Anglophobe, makes his case well, makes it clear that Nationalism should be a positive thing, not an Anti-English thing, and if I were living in Scotland I would consider voting for him; but
2) Many Scot Nats are Anglophobes. I refer to two academic studies to back me up on this. Equally many Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites.
You say today -
a) “All you can prove from one small survey by glasgow Uni is that there is heightened Anglophobia amongst SNP supporters”
I said yesterday – at 8.32
b) “you don’t have to be an Anglophobe to be a Scot Nat. It just’s just an established fact that many are. This is backed up by this report which shows that Scottish nationalists are more likely to be Anglophobic than other Scots”
As I said also yesterday in my first post
c) “Scottish Nationalism shouldn’t and needn’t necessarily have anything to do with Anglophobia. ”
My points (b) and (c) appear not to contradict, and indeed seem to support, your point (a) We appear, therefore, to agree with each other!!!
So what is this argument about? Have I touched a nerve maybe?
I realise that many Scot Nats think that Scotland is bankrolling England. You may well be right, however, based on the evidence I have seen, I disagree. I live in London. No doubt in the future we will continue as is. With the Sarbanes-Oxley Act in the US making London a more attractive financial centre than NYC for IPOs etc. we here in London are cementing our position as a financial services leader. We have a tradition of that which I think will continue. Given that Greater London alone has a population 3 million greater than Scotland (8 mill and growing vs 5 million and declining) I can’t see how such a small country can maintain us in our standard of living.
I hope too we will continue our success in other areas – Sheffield for example has taken its steel making heritage and coped with the loss of mass production by (in part) concentrating on precision instruments.
In view, also, of a global move away from fossil fuels the impact of N Sea oil, already diminished, will become meaningless when we reach peak oil. So I think we’ll be OK. Like I say, though, I don’t have a crystal ball so I may be wrong.
Englishness is part of my identity, not all of it, I don’t feel the need to defend England from all slights.
You could well be right to suggest that there is more Anti-Scot racism in England than the reverse in Scotland. I don’t doubt it and I’ll take your word for it. But it has nothing to do with this debate.
I wish, and hope, Scotland becomes independent. I’ll leave it at that. But with your attitudes and the way you misrepresent others based on their nationality it isn’t going to be a harmonious departure
Martin.
>>you don’t have to be an Anglophobe to be a Scot Nat. It just’s just an established fact that many are.< <
Totally disagree! however we have came a long way from your original remarks which were offensive. As posted above, for someone who seems to have more than a basic knowledge of our affairs I am surprised you made such remarks in the first place.
I wish London well in it's future endeavours, I just don't wish to be part of a country that focuses on fuelling a region(S.E. England) at the expense of my nation. The governor of the bank of England has admitted that the economy is run to suit the south east. As a result there is virtual stagnation in my country, a state of affairs that cannot be allowed to continue.
>>But with your attitudes and the way you misrepresent others based on their nationality it isn’t going to be a harmonious departure<<
Your perception is flawed Martin, we will be good neighbours and you will get over the bad taste in your mouth.
Prince,
I don’t believe my position has changed at all. As I have said all along, although Scottish Nationalism is not intrinsically Anglophobic in philosophy or direction, many of its followers are. This is supported by the independent I cite above.
Nontheless, if the way I expressed my views initially caused confusion or even offence, particularly my analogy with Anti-Zionism, then I apologise.
I have in no way re-written any of my countries history.You are also wrong to imply the rest of Scotland sat idly by while the Highland clearances were going on.The Highland land league being a prime example,which incidentally was based on the Irish land league if I remember correctly.
There’s no doubt that the Highland Clearances is still a very emotive subject to many people today. It consistently provokes people to take sides and has led to deep, and sometimes acrimonious academic debate.As for your comments on ‘ethnic cleansing’.The Clearances undoubtedly stemmed in part from the attempt by the British establishment to destroy, once and for all, the archaic, militaristic Clan System, which had facilitated the Jacobite risings of the early part of the 18th century. This approach, however, also over-simplifies the issues involved.
People at the time, and since, have seen the Clearances as an act of greed and betrayal on the part of the Scottish ruling class in the Highlands.An attempt to hold on to their land and preserve their wealth and status by sacrificing their people. Undoubtedly this motive was present in some instances, with weak people taking advantage of even weaker ones under the guise of economic reform or social reorganisation.
The weather has also been blamed – a succession of bad harvests and famine demanding a drastic solution. Rising population, putting pressure on land and jobs, also played a part, as did the persuasive, smooth-talking agents of ship-owners who ferried indentured servants to the rapidly expanding United States of America.
Indeed, in some cases, the final decision to go was a voluntary one – a desire to seek something better. All of these factors played a part in causing the Highland Clearances, and I’ll be the first to agree that the results have had a lasting significance for the people of the Highlands and the rest of Scotland.
I will also add there was no forced conscription in any part of Scotland in the century following the 1745 rebellion.
Now on to the different languages in Scotland. Many people are aware of a concept of Scotland being culturally divided into Highlands and Lowlands, with Highlanders speaking Gaelic and Lowlanders speaking Scots. Although this picture is not wholly inaccurate. The further back in Scottish history you go, the less relevant and useful a simple cultural division into Gaelic-speaking Highlands and Scots-speaking Lowlands becomes.
For example like I said before, in the 9th century the area that is now Scotland had almost half a dozen different cultures speaking as many different languages divided up into even more different kingdoms. In the southwest they were speaking Cumbric (a Brythonic language closely related to Welsh), in the southeast they were speaking Old English, in the northeast they were speaking Pictish, in the far north they were speaking Norse, and in the west they were speaking Gaelic.
By the 12th century, Pictish and Cumbric had disappeared, but Norse, Gaelic, and Scots were still being spoken —except not in the same regional permutations as three centuries earlier— and had been joined by Anglo-Norman French along with a smattering of other northern European languages. The number of kingdoms had lessened, but the Kingdom of Scotland still did not have the borders of modern Scotland. Norway held the Northern Isles and most of the Western Isles, and the border with England was still being hammered out.
Even in the 16th century, with her modern borders nearly set, there were still at least three languages spoken in Scotland; in addition to Scots, spoken primarily in the Lowlands, and Gaelic, spoken primarily in the Highlands and Western Isles, Norn (a flavor of Norse) as well as Scots was spoken in the Northern Isles.
Keep in mind that the examples given above are only part of the story! The lines and divisions between the different cultures and language areas were constantly shifting, expanding and receding (even overlapping) under many complex influences.
For you to suggest that Gaelic was the founding language of Scotland is not historically correct.The Scots language which ended up the predominate language of the country spoken by the vast majority of the population was influenced not just by Gaelic but by virtually all the other languages in the country at the time.After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotland, including the royal court, the law, the Church and the arts. The effect of all this, was for a Standard literary Scots to develop.
As for the accusation of brushing things under the carpet for my own political agenda.I don’t see the Highland clearances as a relevant point in this years elections,so I would hardly brush anything under the carpet when it has no relevance to how I or the rest of the people in Scotland will vote for !
Teach.
Could not getting away from the English equate to Us being a nation and standing on our own two feet without being ruled from England? Of course it could! You really seem to be equating every possible thing with Anglophobia, c’mon man get rid of the agenda! The clearances were carried out by essentially a foreign people culturally to the highlanders, that they happened to be Anglocentric is a matter of historical record. I don’t feel the need to dress up the facts to suit anyone’s sensitivities.
I will guarantee you that for every one voter who has the slightest whiff anti-Englishness about them there is 10 who will vote for the Union due to anti-Catholicism, which you have already alluded to. Myself, I come from a long line of Labour voters who wishes to live in my own country ruled by my own countrymen, and certainly not as a forgotten region of a failed UK. We have everything at our disposal to be a highly successful nation. Let’s just get on with it. Myself and some of my family will vote SNP on thursday, others will in the main not be voting Labour.
What agenda ? I don’t equate everything with being anglophobic.And there’s nothing in any of my posts where I say anything like that ! I’ve already stated that most people in Scotland don’t vote like that and political diversity is a good thing for Scotland !
I don’t see Scotland as a failure like you do.I look around where I live and I see the improvements happening around me the investment in Schools and hospitals.From the building of new schools and improvement of others.Like my weans school with the extra money they have been able to invest in further teachers and new equipment like computers,new sports ground etc,etc.When it comes to hospitals we have just recently knocked down the old maternity hospital and built a new one at a cost of £20 million and they have now started to build another new hospital on the grounds of where the old maternity one was.In fact did you know that the UK is building more new hospitals than all the other G8 countries put together ? The local council is also drawing up the plans to build our community a new leisure centre,that’s on top of a load of other various things like our new library fitted out with all the latest technology and longer opening ours.
I have seen with the growth of the economy not only my my job security grow stronger.But my work has been able to invest millions in the company and they now train the largest team of apprentices for their size than anywhere else in Scotland.With the stability in the economy I also decided to invest in shares and property which I can happily say I’m doing very,very well with.
Me and my partner have also benefited greatly from the things like the working tax(though we have stopped getting it now because of my earnings) and the child tax with enabled us both to keep working and raise a family at the same time.
Now when I vote I don’t look at what peoples nationalities are,I look at the polices they present not wether they are Scottish or English.Somebodies nationality isn’t an issue for me their polices on Education,enployment , economy etc,etc are the real issues that are going to affect my family and my country !
Frig me Teach! but you can do some talkin. Your research is no bad!
Would you not agree that the highland clearances would not have happened if not for the destruction of the clan system?
>>ndeed, in some cases, the final decision to go was a voluntary one – a desire to seek something better.< <
Well anything would have been better than living rough, having been evicted and no land to grow food, your kinfolk in no position to help themselves. Aye too right it was a desire to seek something better!
>>In the southwest they were speaking Cumbric< <
You have failed to mention Galloway where Gaelic was spoken, also the Kingdom of Strathclyde collapsed awful easily. One Viking raid on Dumbarton rock and the whole house of cards collapses.
>>After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotland, including the royal court, the law, the Church and the arts. The effect of all this, was for a Standard literary Scots to develop.<<
I’d say your timing was out here, you’d need to show me a link. I’d have thought gaelic was still predominant over the land upto well into the 16thC. Also pre-reformation Scotland was heavily influenced by the ‘Auld alliance’ plus the left over Norman influence would have had ensured courtly chat was in French the educated sophisticated language of the day., We also had Latin for the church.
Fair enough Teach! sure you don’t equate everything with Anglophobia, although your initial posts highlighted an opinion to the contrary. You sound as if life is going great for you Teach, I’m happy for you. However you cannot deny that there is stagnation here, with a flexible smaller govt. run from Holyrood we could achieve so much more. However my position is not based on economics, I wish to live in a country where those of us who live here decide the issues, and like you i don’t differentiate on nationalities. However I don’t want a foreign government who have others higher up the list to decide what is best for me and mine.
Spare me the Scottish mafia stuff, they do not have our interests at heart. We do!
Thanks Martin.
No it wasn’t your analogy but thanks anyway!
Frig me Teach! but you can do some talkin. Your research is no bad!
I’m extremely proud of my country and it’s rich history.So I read a lot about it and have studied it at length.
Would you not agree that the highland clearances would not have happened if not for the destruction of the clan system?
No I wouldn’t.I can’t see how the Highlands would have remained isolated to the economic and agricultural change which was widespread across Europe at the time.The Agricultural and Industrial Revolution of the late 18th and early 19th century would not have stopped at the Lowlands and it’s fallacy to believe otherwise !
Well anything would have been better than living rough, having been evicted and no land to grow food, your kinfolk in no position to help themselves. Aye too right it was a desire to seek something better!
Obviously I didn’t make it clear enough,not everybody was forced off the land,not all the Factors were like the ones in Sutherland and on Skye,Where they were burning the peoples homes.Like I said before the living conditions and the famine also played a part.Some of the Factors paid money to the people to give up their rented land and because of these conditions used the money to go to the New World.
You have failed to mention Galloway where Gaelic was spoken, also the Kingdom of Strathclyde collapsed awful easily. One Viking raid on Dumbarton rock and the whole house of cards collapses.
I can’t mention every detail,that’s why I said “Keep in mind that the examples given above are only part of the story! The lines and divisions between the different cultures and language areas were constantly shifting, expanding and receding (even overlapping) under many complex influences.
I’d say your timing was out here, you’d need to show me a link. I’d have thought gaelic was still predominant over the land upto well into the 16thC. Also pre-reformation Scotland was heavily influenced by the ‘Auld alliance’ plus the left over Norman influence would have had ensured courtly chat was in French the educated sophisticated language of the day., We also had Latin for the church.
I think one of the best examples I could give to show Scots was the prodominate language is in 1559,the Scottish Court sanctioned William Nudrye to write school textbooks on how to teach and speak ‘Scottis’(Scots) for our schools.As for the ‘Auld Alliance’ bit I’ve already spoke about Anglo-Norman French in my previous post.Just a wee bit of trivia about the ‘Auld Alliance’.Did you know that both Scotland and France passed laws in the 1500′s so that every Scotsman was also a French citizen and vise-a-versa for the French to be Scots !
However you cannot deny that there is stagnation here, with a flexible smaller govt. run from Holyrood we could achieve so much more.
Scotland isn’t stagnate just some of the people are.You know the ones that try and blame everybody and everything else but themselves.I do agree we would do well as an independent country with the proper polices obviously not the SNP’s ones.But I think we can do even better as part of the Union with the right policies !
However my position is not based on economics
I’m actually a bit shocked you said that.Surely you must see how important this issue is especially for someone who supports independence,it would be disastrous for Scotland to do otherwise ? Tell you the truth that statement has left me a bit speechless !
However I don’t want a foreign government who have others higher up the list to decide what is best for me and mine.
So I take it that since you view the UK Government as foreign(Which is a view I find a bit strange) you also want to pull out of the EU ? Because I can’t see how you can argue that the UK Government is foreign but the EU one isn’t ?
Spare me the Scottish mafia stuff, they do not have our interests at heart. We do!
I must admit I don’t understand this bit ?
For the record – the kingdom of Ystrad Clud (Strathclyde) the last of the Welsh Kingdoms of “Yr Hen Ogledd” (The Old North) came to an end in the early years of the last millenium. Not a bad effort fighting Scots, Picts, English, Normans and Vikings…..
That’s the basis for Wales’s territorial claim on most of Southern Scotland. We will be starting discussions with Mr Salmond nest week.
“next week” sorry
Teach
Thanks for the reply.
The ‘Scottish mafia’ are the guys running the country. Brown, Browne et al. It’s an affectionate name our Sassenach neighbours have for them.
I believe that highland society would have moved with the times without the massive murderous upheaval inflicted on them. How you think what happened was due to the Agricultural and Industrial Revolution is beyond me. Do you really think it was a necessary evil to cause the death and displacement of thousands? And to destroy with it a viable social structure capable of evolving with the times.
>>Some of the Factors paid money to the people to give up their rented land and because of these conditions used the money to go to the New World.< <
I'm sure the clans sought this right! And just what might have happened to those who refused the offer to fuck off! and oh here take this money from your goodly benefactor. Get real! i am not denying that there must have been instances of well meaning land owners who thought they were doing the right thing. just like those who took the babies of the Aboriginal peoples of N. America and Australia in order to civilize the barbarians.
I didn't mean to imply criticism of your research about language areas, merely to add some knowledge of my own. Like yourself, I enjoy reading about my country's history amongst other things. I'm still not sure just when Scots would have taken over fron Gaelic as the most widely used language though.
>>Did you know that both Scotland and France passed laws in the 1500’s so that every Scotsman was also a French citizen and vise-a-versa for the French to be Scots !< <
It rings a bell! Aye they were the days, memories of France 98 come flooding back!
To be clear economics is not my main raison d'atre for wishing to live in my own country free of rule by a foreign nation. In this I concur with the vast majority of the worlds population. Perhaps if the Greeks or Ethiopians had been convinced of the Superior Italian economy. Then Mussolini would have had no need to convince them to join his empire by force.
I am totally convinced by the ability of my countrymen to meet all and any challenges that we may encounter in pursuit of a healthy economy! The lazy bastards that you speak of will have to adapt or work in the community, we have enough jobs at present, they are just not as well paid as they should be. A Scottish economy not run to suit the S.E. of England I am sure would manage to provide her people with pay commensurate with work done.
I for one *melodramatic* have laughed in the faces of the scare stories pushed by the reactionary pro-British elements in our media. i do not believe that Scotland will fall off the edge of the world on friday morning. At least I hope not!
>>So I take it that since you view the UK Government as foreign(Which is a view I find a bit strange) you also want to pull out of the EU ? Because I can’t see how you can argue that the UK Government is foreign but the EU one isn’t ?<<
Are you familiar with the term strawman? We are ruled by a foreign government. Any government that rules this country and is not Scottish is foreign! Scotland like every other country who CHOOSES to take part in the EU, AGREE’S to abide by EU legislation and directives. We can always leave if we wanted to.
As a matter of interest who do you intend voting for Teach?
Dewi
Sadly my not inconsiderable dealings with Welsh people has left me with the idea that they are very pro-British. The bickering between Swansea and Cardiff has the element of ‘well they speak Welsh to us knowing we don’t understand it’ nonsense. Tell me it aint so!
And I doubt very much that the Kingdom of Strathclyde would have had any contact with Normans. Slightly later period.
Prince – u r right re Normans sorry – but resisted most others quite well.
Re the v. popular urban myth “they speak Welsh to us knowing we don’t understand it” I think that’s on the way out as all children are taught a fair bit of Welsh in all schools now.
A theory that I find believable has it that prejudice toward the language was a function of the fact that a significant proportion of 20th century born Welsh kids couldn’t understand their parents native language at all. I can understand how this could mess peoples minds up. “What are Mam and Dad plotting against me now I wonder ?”
Pro British ? More so than in Scotland – after all we were the original Britons I suppose. But the process of devolution (Copyright Ron Davies “Devolution is a process not an event”)seems to be accepted now. What is frustrating is the pace is slow.
Dewi
The circles I mixed in were very pro-British and quite condescending about Scotland and Ireland. Now not wishing to be accused of ‘Anglophobia’ (again) but some of the views expressed would be thought of caricatures of the quintessential English patronising kind.
I too have heard examples of Welsh children deliberately not being taught the language of their parents as it would ‘hold them back’ But I am sure the parents were indeed plotting against them. How goes Plaid Cymru and their chances tomorrow?
>>after all we were the original Britons I suppose<<
Snap!
Prince
Expecting an excellent result tomorrow, one that has escaped the attention of all London based media (grateful for that I suppose).
Wouldn’t be at all surprised if we ran Labour pretty close. Compared to the broad church of constitutional views that Labour have to try and manage Plaid’s approach has an appealing, simple coherence.
Best of luck to us both !!!
There is absolutely no question that Gaelic was the founding language of Scotland Teach. It was a Gaelic King, Kenneth MacAlpine who united the different factions under the banner of the Kingdom of Alba and all the early rulers were Gaels. There are many other languages and cultures that made (and make) up the country, but Gaelic was the founding language and there is simply no denying that. Native language would be different…you could well argue that there are a few native languages, but founding language of Scotland was most certainly Gaelic.
Nothing new in your points about the clearances, I would agree with most of them, but the point I was raising was the supposed benefits accrued to Scotland from the Union and your dismissal of the relevance of the clearances to that. Seeing a large part of your country emptied within a century doesnt look much like a benefit to me. And there most certainly was conscription in the century after 1745, many poor Scots were forced into service (as they were by both sides in 1745/6).
I said myself that the clearances are not relevant to tomorrow’s elections but it sticks in the craw to see somebody celebrating the supposed historical benefits of the union, trade and enlightenment, whilst dismissing such a catasrophe as the clearances as irrelevant. You cant have it both ways.
There is absolutely no question that Gaelic was the founding language of Scotland Teach.
Obviously you didn’t read what I posted properly so I’ll post it again……..”For you to suggest that Gaelic was the founding language of Scotland is not historically correct.The Scots language which ended up the predominate language of the country spoken by the vast majority of the population was influenced not just by Gaelic but by virtually all the other languages in the country at the time.After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotland, including the royal court, the law, the Church and the arts. The effect of all this, was for a Standard literary Scots to develop.”
A good example to show the mixture of the Scots language would be this list of words.
SCOTS———————————DANISH
aff————————————-af
alane———————————–alene
bairn———————————–barn
bane————————————ben
blae————————————bleg
blad————————————blad
brent———————————–braende
claith———————————-klaide
clart———————————–klatte
coo————————————-ko
cruik———————————–krykke
cruisie———————————kruse
dook————————————dykke
drucken———————————drukken
efter———————————–efter
forbye———————————-forbi
fremmit———————————fremmed
gang————————————gang
gavel———————————–gavl
greet———————————–graede
grey-hairit—————————–graharet
grue————————————gru
grund———————————–grund
hals————————————hals
het————————————-hed
hoose———————————–hus
ken kunne——————————-kende
kilt————————————kilte
kirk————————————kirke
lang————————————lang
ligg————————————ligge
lirk————————————lirke
lowe ———————————–lue
mair ———————————–mer
moose ———————————-mus
oot————————————-ud
reek ———————————–rog
rowan ———————————-ron
saip————————————saepe
sark————————————saerk
sang————————————sang
seck ———————————–saek
seik————————————syg
siccar———————————-sikker
skaith———————————-skade
skellum———————————skaelm
skelly———————————-skele
smaa————————————sma
smiddy———————————-smedje
smool———————————–smugle
smit————————————smitte
soor————————————syre
starn stern—————————–stjerne
stane———————————–sten
This list is not exhaustive.A Danish man who visited Scotland some years ago for about ten days, made a list even in that short time, of over three hundred words common to both languages and pronounced the same or almost the same and wrote into the local paper about it.
Yes Gaelic is a very important part of our culture but the Scots language was not founded solely on Gaelic.If anything it has more of a Germanic ancestry.
I would agree with most of them, but the point I was raising was the supposed benefits accrued to Scotland from the Union and your dismissal of the relevance of the clearances to that. Seeing a large part of your country emptied within a century doesnt look much like a benefit to me.
I’ll deal with your false accusation of me being dismissive of the Highland clearance first.I’ll just quote two sentences from that post to show how false you ludicrous accusations are the first one which is virtually at the very beginning of my post “There’s no doubt that the Highland Clearances is still a very emotive subject to many people today. It consistently provokes people to take sides and has led to deep, and sometimes acrimonious academic debate.” and then the one at the end of my post on the clearances “and I’ll be the first to agree that the results have had a lasting significance for the people of the Highlands and the rest of Scotland.” Both these statements clearly show I do not dismiss the clearances in anyway.
As for Scotland benefiting from the Union,this happened without a doubt,as a quick example you only have to look at the economic history of Glasgow and Edinburgh.I’ve never came across any historian that has said Scotland didn’t benefit from the free trade within the British Empire.So I would be curious what you base your opinions on ? But anyway I’ll point you in the direction of a couple of books by T M Devine,’Scotland’s Empire’ and ‘The Scottish Nation, 1700-2000′.Apart from being a good read it goes into great detail about our history and how Scotland changed following the disaster of the Darien expedition.
I did indeed read your post Teach but with the greatest of respect it was hardly relevant to the point in question. The Kingdom of Scots was created/unified under a Gaelic banner, the first rulers (for a considerable amount of time) were Gaels. Scotland’s FOUNDING language was Gaelic.
I really cant understand why youre talking about the diversity of the Scots language or the 14th century in relation to this, irrelevant. And of course Scots was influenced by other languges but I dont recall anybody suggesting it wasnt. Equally strange to say Scots wasnt based soley on Gaelic, that would be a ludicrous point. Gaelic is a Celtic language, Scots is not.
And while its not relevant to the foundling language question this statement “After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotland” is just plain wrong.
“after all we were the original Britons I suppose”
John “Aspiring to be a Buddhist nun” Foreigner Foreigner* had an interesting account of the Highland Clearnces in one of his books whose title I unfortunately cannot remember.
*John Kenneth Galbraith
The Kingdom of the Scots and the country now called Scotland are two different things.In fact our final borders weren’t even settled until the 1600′s.The country Scotland wasn’t unified under a Gaelic banner.Scotland as both a nation and country was created from a mixture of different cultures and peoples coming together.Even by the time of the Act of Union 1707 we were still not a truly united nation.
Also the Scots weren’t the first rulers, the native Picts already used the tanistry method for our hierarchy.Granted the Gaels did join with the Picts(under the leadership of a Pict, King Constantine) to fight off the Viking warriors from Scandinavia and this was the beginning of Scotland as a nation.But this took centuries before all the other Kingdoms and peoples like the Gododdin,Rheged,Angles,Britons etc,etc came together to form what is now Scotland.At no time in history were we all Gaelic speakers running about in Kilts.Even today there are still three languages used in Scotland.To put it simply the largest portion of the population of what is now Scotland has always been in the Lowlands(probably because it was easier to farm and work the land there)and although Gaelic was spoken in parts of the Lowlands it was never the predominate language of the area like Scots turned out to be.And I’m glad to say the Scots Parliament has set up a committee to promote both the Scots and Gaelic languages in Scotland.
And while its not relevant to the foundling language question this statement “After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotland†is just plain wrong.
It”s not plain wrong is historical fact easily proved since all our historical documents from about the last 800 years that have been preserved are mainly written in Scots.Gaelic has been a dying language in Scotland since about the 11th centuary.But hopefully with the Scottish Parliaments committee it won’t disappear like some of our other cultural languages like Pictish.Scots has a bit more of an advantage because it’s still widely spoken in many parts of Scotland,but the written aspects of the language need work.And it’s good to see one of the proposed actions is to re-introduce written Scots into schools.
I fail to see why you are so keen to ‘do away’ with the rich tapestry of different cultures and people that made Scotland what it is today.I’ve already said Gaelic is a very important part of our culture but so is all the other influences that were around at the time.
I’ll just add quickly King Kenneth MacAlpin was king of the Picts and Scots not Scotland.Donald II(a Pict) was the first monarch to be called King of Scotland (Ri Alba).But even then it was not the country we recognise today as people like Harold Fairhair added to the uncertainty of the time by establishing Shetland, Orkney, Caithness and the Hebrides as possessions of the Norwegian King and turned them into Earldoms.
Teach
Mac Alpin is regarded as the first king of the new Scottish nation. Whether he held the title of Ri Alba is neither here nor there.
>>It’’s not plain wrong is historical fact easily proved since all our historical documents from about the last 800 years that have been preserved are mainly written in Scots.< <
There are many examples of the nobility in the middle ages speaking a different language from the common folk. The English nobility spoke French right into the 1500's for example. As did much of the Scottish nobility. My point is, the language of written documents is not always a guarantee that the people spoke it. Latin was used by the church, and is in many documents even though virtually nobody outside the church spoke or understood it.
>>”After the fourteenth century, Scots was the language of virtually all the people of Scotlandâ€<<
Substitute Scotland for lowlands and you might be onto something, possibly. You are in my opinion ‘plain wrong’ as Domhnall Ban asserts to claim virtually all of Scotland.
Also Domhnall is quite correct in claiming that Gaelic was the founding language of the new Scottish nation. Regardless whether some bits were loped off or added on later, the ruling language of the new nation was Gaelic.
I don’t know if you have chosen to ignore my earlier points Teach, but what do you think of the outrageous headlines in today’s ‘Scottish Sun’ the labour news (record) and ‘Scottish’ Daily Mail. I never looked at any others as I thought I might puke!