Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

“I think this was a paramilitary-type operation carried out with paramilitary precision.”

Sat 7 April 2007, 2:52am

The ongoing attacks in Ballymurphy, previously noted on Slugger, today saw a hijacked JCB digger being driven by masked men into an uninhabited house owned by Edith Notorantonio, a family whose properties have been repeatedly attacked. The attacks escalated following the murder of Gerard Devlin at the start of last year, a murder in which two members of the Notorantonio family were charged in Feb 2006, and has rumbled on in the background ever since. The house has now been declared unsafe and will be demolished, although the family have stated that they are determined to rebuild it. The Belfast Telegraph report is worth noting,

Gerard Devlin’s aunt Bernadette O’Rawe said: “The Devlin family had absolutely nothing to do with this. This has been carried out by someone who has a personal grudge against the Notorantonio’s.

“I think this was a paramilitary-type operation carried out with paramilitary precision. There is no way the children could have done this. It is very frightening that our family is being implicated in this.”

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Comments (59)

  1. dolmen builder says:

    A new episode in this long running saga. It´s like the Capulates and the Montagues, but with scum.

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  2. Northsider says:

    Pretty much sums it up.

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  3. paul panther says:

    Let’s be clear about this – the reason why the attacks had all but ended in recent months are down to two things.
    Ryan Doyle, an innocent teenager getting almost burnt to death, and two of the main protaganists, Gary and Gerard, being taken into care.
    What happens when one of the G’s get out for the weekend, the place goes ape shit.
    Gerard Devlin didn’t deserve to die, but at the same time that doesn’t give his relatives carte blanche to attack homes!

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  4. Observer says:

    You could be on to something here!
    Maybe, at last, the process will come crashing down. Keep digging;)

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  5. seanzmct says:

    Sinn Fein run this area. Why have they singularly failed to intervene and mediate a resolution to what appears to be an inter-family feud? Also surely now that the PSNI have the backing of Sinn Fein and the IRA, they will play a more pro-active role in policing the area.

    Of course,Mrs Devlin may be right in her assertion that the Provos(who else?) are involved and taking sides. If she is right,I am sure the police will turn a blind eye and file the affair away under that burgeoning category “internal housekeeping”-for the sake of the blessed process.

    It will then be interesting to see whether the DUP averts its gaze also.

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  6. Guilty Secret says:

    I ‘hotwired’ a digger and crashed it into the side of an unoccupied house when I was 11 years old. That and a few other incidents of vandalism got a double page spread in the local rag at the time. Gosh I was panicking enough over that, don’t know what I’d have done if it was picked up by the Tele, or God forbid the BBC or UTV.

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  7. SuperSoupy says:

    SF? Run this area?

    People should report these criminals/murderers. End of. People are sick of the Notornotorious/BurnYe clan.

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  8. jone says:

    If anyone was lucky enough to be in the Gravediggers a few nights back they’d have witnessed a Notorantonio wake. Which of course ended with various members of the family going at each with bottles on the street outside.

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  9. sticky wicket says:

    Sean,
    Sinn Fein efforts by Sinn Fein to mediate have proven unsuccessful due to the entrenched positions of both sides. That is all that Sinn Fein has done and can do.Time for the police to take a more pro-active role.
    Your less than subtle linkage of this needless family feud to the political situation at Stormont is risible, ridiculous and tenuous in the extreme.

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  10. seanzmct says:

    Stinky Wicket,

    I see you remain the voice of sweet reason , heedlesss of the fact that you have recently had
    posts removed by Slugger admin and besn given a yellow card for personally abusing me and alleging that I had paramilitary connections. Keep it up;the red cannot be too far away.

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  11. sticky wicket says:

    Sean, I have never urged anyone to take violent action against anyone, elected representatives or otherwise.It is a pity for you that you cannot say the same.
    I have found these exchanges with you to be increasingly tedious and I apologise on your behalf to Mick and other contributors for the ennui and boredom inflicted on them
    I will close your futile dialogue with a plea to you-Let’s stick to the issues!

    L

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  12. seanzmct says:

    PS To Sticky Wicker,

    My substantive point was that such micro issues can soon have macro implications in the small world that is Northern Ireland.

    One wonders why Sinn Fein are so impotent to influence the situation in this case – as you say they are. One wonders like Mrs Devlin whether the Provos were involved. And therefore one wonders what the wider political ramifications may be, if indeed they are.

    “Risible” or reasonable? I will let other posters decide.

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  13. roisin says:

    confused here-Where does Mrs. O’Rawe (not Devlin) mention the provos?

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  14. seanzmct says:

    PPS To Sticky Wicket,

    I have been trying to keep to the issues as my post above demonstrates.

    The fact is, that I have been informed by Mick Fealty that a number of your posts were pulled because of your personal abuse of me which included the dangerous allegation that I was a paramilitary- just because I happened to concur with the Workers Party position on powersharing in the 70′s. My joke about the people of the Shankill “reaching out” to Gerry Adams was perhaps a touch tasteless. But he is a big boy and can defend himself.

    You have been shown the yellow card for this abusive trolling and should do the right thing and apologise to me as well as Slugger Admin.

    If you do apologise to me, then I will draw a line under the whole business and we can focus on reasonable political debate in the true spirit of Slugger O’Toole. I might even invite you to go for a pint ( but not in a Workers Party or Sinn Fein club)!

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  15. seanzmct says:

    Roisin,

    The Provos are the dominant force in the area. I feel that it is not an unreasonable interpretation of Mrs O’Rawe’s comment that it was them to whom she was referring.

    After all they have honed their demolition skills and night-time attacks over four decades. If it was the Provos, then that would explain Sinn Fein’s (and their new friends in the PSNI’s)impotence in the whole sordid affair.

    Sean.

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  16. Pat Mc Larnon says:

    ‘Sinn Fein run this area.’

    That is a lie, SF don’t run any areas.

    ‘Why have they singularly failed to intervene and mediate a resolution to what appears to be an inter-family feud?’

    Intervention and representation was made to both families. An agreement that some members of both families vacate the area was initally taken up by both families. This agreement was broken and ended in the murder of Gerard Devlin.

    ‘Also surely now that the PSNI have the backing of Sinn Fein and the IRA, they will play a more pro-active role in policing the area.’

    Should be the case, but the PSNI stated they had expended vast resouces in the area. The feud continued.

    ‘Of course,Mrs Devlin may be right in her assertion that the Provos(who else?) are involved and taking sides.’

    Mrs Devlin did not make this assertion, that is a lie. Who elese? how about the Real IRA, there are family connections or indeed the INLA or even the CIRA who have been bloodily active in North and West Belfast in recent weeks.

    ‘I am sure the police will turn a blind eye and file the affair away under that burgeoning category “internal housekeeping”-for the sake of the blessed process.’

    Attempts to shift the blame away from these two families will not wash. It is they who brought death, violence and embarrassment to that area, no one elese.

    ‘It will then be interesting to see whether the DUP averts its gaze also.’

    What have the DUP got to do with two criminally violent families hellbent on mutual destruction?

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  17. Northsider says:

    Sinn Fein runs this area?

    Your dalliance with the Workers Party is showing — Sinn Fen no more ‘run’ Ballymurphy than they do any other part of Belfast. If Sinn Fein did indeed ‘run’ this area then this appalling feud conducted by two equally despicable groups of people would be long over.

    Point of order: just because Mick censured another poster for making a reasonable extrapolation based on your comments, doesn’t mean you can go around lecturing to the rest of us about what we can and can’t say on here.

    Again, your WP credentials are showing.

    Finally, you better get used to the idea of Sinn Fein in government and that government proving robust. You’ll trouble less people with you il-thought out axe-grinding views.

    and you’ll sleep better.

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  18. roisin says:

    “Risible” or reasonable? I will let other posters decide.”

    Sorry Sean but I think you now know the verdict

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  19. Comrade Stalin says:

    Sean,

    One wonders why Sinn Fein are so impotent to influence the situation in this case – as you say they are.

    What would they do – start shooting people ? And thus abruptly terminate the recent political progress here ? Your suggestions that Mrs O’Rawe said that the Provos were involved is jumping conclusions, given that (as Pat has said) the dissidents have been busy lately. The CIRA in particular are particularly visible in North Belfast.

    I don’t think the idea that Sinn Fein “run” neighbourhoods these days is something that people can realistically claim. The IRA can’t be seen to be taking action over anything – and what would they do anyway, start shooting people and make the whole thing even worse ?

    I’d like to see the new executive bringing in some of the UK legislation on dealing with problem families, as it sounds like a very simple case of a group of human beings who resemble wild animals going at each other to the death. I hope the PSNI catch and prosecute those caught involved in this to the fullest extent of the law.

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  20. seanzmct says:

    Pat McLarnon:-
    “SF don’t run any areas”.
    Where have you been the past thirty years Pat?
    OK, for the sake of strict and pedantic exactitude let’s substitute PSF/PIRA FOR “Sinn Fein” and we now have the identity of those who run this area and many others.

    The role of the PSNI?
    My point about the PSNI was that their job should in theory be easier if they now have the support of PSF/PIRA. But, what if, in actuality, PSF/PIRA (or PIRA solo) were behind the demolition of the house? Then it is not unreasonable to assume that the police will turn a blind eye.

    Where do the DUP come in?
    As you know, they will shortly be running the whole area of the six counties along with PSF on the basis that PIRA has transmogrified into a Stickiefied old comrades drinking club. Clearly one would expect that the DUP will not be well pleased if it turns out that PIRA are still active in the illegal demolition of social housing stock.

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  21. Northsider says:

    He’s right. Everyone, the man is right.

    The IRA demolished that house in Ballymurphy – they did it because, er, uh…um, the people had stood up to them cos they run the area like.

    It was an action sanctioned at an emergency meeting of the Army Council late on Wedensday night. It was a close decision, 4 to 3 in favour.

    It was breathtakingly professional operation, many months in planning, the acquisition of the digger was carried out with clockwork precision.

    Seanzcars knows a lot about these ‘republican areas’ much more than me and I actually live in one (whatever they are!)

    And he’s bang on the money that the whole rotten edifice at Stormont is going to come crashing down on the word of Bernadette O Rawe who was the first to point the finger and say it was the –, er, who did she say it was again.

    Doesn’t matter. Seanzzzzzzzzzz has spoken….

    Now, you’ve done really well there my boy. The Easter bunny is sure to be kind to you tomorrow.

    Tell you what, why don’t you come on here then and tell us all how many Easter eggs you got. Eh?

    Cue:

    ‘MIIIICCCCKKK! They’re making fun of me again… Waaaaaaaah!’

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  22. Pat Mc Larnon says:

    ‘Where have you been the past thirty years Pat?’

    North Belfast.

    ‘OK, for the sake of strict and pedantic exactitude let’s substitute PSF/PIRA FOR “Sinn Fein” and we now have the identity of those who run this area and many others.’

    Have a presence, yes. Have the support of most of the people, yes. In normal political circumstances the ability to effect pressure on two families with access to weapons and an intent on murder, no.

    ‘My point about the PSNI was that their job should in theory be easier if they now have the support of PSF/PIRA. But, what if, in actuality, PSF/PIRA (or PIRA solo) were behind the demolition of the house? Then it is not unreasonable to assume that the police will turn a blind eye.’

    My point being that the PSNI stated they had expended vast sums of money on manpower during the violence. Yet incidents took place not far from stationary PSNI vehicles. You offer the fantasy of IRA involvement in the attack on the house, without one iota of evidence and then base an argument on this fantasy about the PSNI turning a blind eye. Let’s be clear no one wants to get involved in this hate fest

    ‘As you know, they will shortly be running the whole area of the six counties along with PSF on the basis that PIRA has transmogrified into a Stickiefied old comrades drinking club.’

    That is a basis borne out in your own mindest, not based on any realities.

    ‘Clearly one would expect that the DUP will not be well pleased if it turns out that PIRA are still active in the illegal demolition of social housing stock.’

    Again an argument based on a fantasy.

    Throughout all of your posts you fail to apportion the blame on this sorry affair at the feet of the people who are responsible, that is those two families. Instrad you go off on a very transparent political witch hunt, based on nothing more than your interpretation of what one of the parties to this violent hate fests states.

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  23. stickey wicket says:

    ‘MIIIICCCCKKK! They’re making fun of me again… Waaaaaaaah!’

    Neatly summed up indeed. Keep those cards in your pocket, Mick!

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  24. Cynic says:

    ‘The Kids couldnt have done it themsleves?’

    All it took was one person and an excavator. Some of the local kids have managed to do quite a good job of stealing various vehicles and demolishing bits of this area over the last 30 years, so why should now be any different?

    ‘Its just a dispute between two families?’

    Yeah – but with a bit of factional republican politics and some links to criminal activies thrown into the mix.

    If people want it sort they should call in the police, give evidence and get those responsible locked up. That’s what happens in many other places but they now have a real chance to do it and take back their community from the scum who do these sort of things. If they dont, it will go on and on and on.

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  25. dolmen builder says:

    This feud has been going on for years with these two sets of inbred scum.

    Have none of them received punishment beatings yet. Or are these the people that used to dish them out.

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  26. Sue says:

    If the stationary PSNI car moved it would not be stationary.

    Perhaps they were only following orders.

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  27. Jimmy says:

    Yet again we see another example of the ongoing victimisation of the Nortorantonios. Look, Geard Devlin although he didnt deserve what he got, he was nonetheless a dislikeable human being who thrived on conflict (and thats being kind)he probablly would have died that way anyway if not By the Nats then by someone else.He was a trouble maker and that is with the greatest respect to his family.
    The real tradgedy was that the powers that be in Ballymurphy (and we all know who they are) could have stopped the trouble in 24 hours after his killing.
    There was and is an ongoing vendetta toward the Nat’s since the execution of JJ O,Connor by the PIRA. The recent episodes are manefested by complacency and looking the other way while thugs steal site machineary and use it with criminal intent. I hope SF gives thier names to the PSNI, although I doubt it. What about the innocent victims in the house next door to the attack? do they not deserve respect? Anyhow, this needs to come to an end and if SF want any respect from the people of Ballymurphy they’d better be more pro-active in sorting this out. Whether people want to accept it or not, The Nortorantinos are victims also.

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  28. History lesson says:

    The Nats were wonderful chaps and above all criticism when they organised Tobbacco, Tax exemptions, Copy CDs, Shirts, even fake Vodka for the Sinn fein Provisional IRA in the area for decades.

    However after the Paedophile rapes by the Senior Provisional of the Ballymurphy area who then went on the hop to Donegal where the PIRA gave him a slight flesh wound as punishment for the repeated rapes of two juvenile sisters the Nats decided to keep some of the profits from imported Ciggies for themselves this was the start of their downfall.

    In order to avoid the Provo mafias claim to a cut of the Nats CD and Ciggy empire the Nats joined a different organisation hoping this would protect them, so they flitted from one group to the next leaving a tangled web in their wake.
    At this time they were also in a dispute with a known drug-dealer Gerard Devlin who had a severe reputation for gross violence make no mistake this guy was a digger and a half.

    The Provos used this drug-dealer and his cohorts to wind the situation up until it exploded in sickening violence.
    After the killing/murder the court will decide very well known Provos gave guidence and support to drunken moronic buffoons to petrol bomb houses that had children asleep in beds upstairs, how Ballymurphy avoided a repeat of the Quinn tradegdy where three wee boys were burned to death is only by the grace of God.

    This whole sickening episode is so the Provos can take over a counterfeit empire and nothing else, they need to get the Nats out of the ballymurphy first which the arson attacks achieved then they need to destroy the houses which are not under housing executive control to stop them coming back, they obviously feel that the H.E housing will come under their control eventually when they can get Shinner people moved into the vaccant properties.

    The Devlins should take note they will be next after the Nats make no mistake about that.

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  29. Pat Mc Larnon says:

    So there we have it, a new poster with an e-mail address at [email protected]. Slugger has now morphed into a trolls paradise. A situation that has been allowed to develop, as long as the targets are SF.

    I can safely say that I will never visit this site again, never mind post.

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  30. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Pat,

    This is probably too late for you now but, for what it’s worth, I don’t like sock puppets any more than you do. But if I did rule it out, it would wipe out 95% of our Republican regulars at a stroke.

    What I will tackle, is man playing. I cannot verify any of the accusations made in HL’s post, but it lays out a case without making personal accusations against any living person.

    I am just not sure what you want me to do, other than take it down. I cannot see what the legitimate grounds might be, but I am open to representation on this.

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  31. SuperSoupy says:

    Mick,

    Though probably not relevant in this case as you are unlikely to face action but for the sake of clarity an individual does not need to be refered to for a defamation case.

    The Notorantonios are a small enough group to allow any individual member of the family to initiate action based on the above comment. Similarly anyone moving into the vacant HE properties could also have a case. The allegations in para one could possibly allow action from any member of SF in Ballymurphy.

    Individuals from small groups have protection from defamation even when not explicitly named.

    Tis the law.

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  32. nice one says:

    HA! I’d like to see the Ballymurphy Shinner that would bring History Lesson’s post to court over defamation LOL. Talk about opening a can o’worms. Suffice to say that’s an investigation that will never see the light of day LOL

    But thanks for the laugh I must remember to suggest to the wee boys that sell dodgy dvds round the doors that they think about bringing a defamation suit as a better way of making money

    LOL LOL LOL

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  33. seanzmct says:

    “History lesson” has done us a great service in telling it like it is about the subject of this thread.

    The truth often hurts; especially to fanatical sensibilities raised on blind loyalties to perverted causes. And,as we can see from the adolescent outbursts by Pat McL; Sticky Wicket and the gang above, anyone who dares to speak the truth about PSF/PIRA will be subjected to a torrent of apoplectic ad hominem vilification.

    For the record again, I complained to Slugger Admin not because someone “made fun” of me, but because I was accused of being a Stickie paramilitary utterly without foundation. Admin judged that I was justified in my complaint and pulled the offending posts. For Stinky Wicket and the boys to react as they do above,outs them as the bloggardly bullies that they are.

    As can be seen from post 15 above I even offered an olive branch to the perpetrator of the libel if he would apologise. Instead he has persisted in his campaign of personalised attacks and has enlisted his mates to aid and abet in putting in the boot.

    One of these. P McL has promised to remove himself from the Slugger scene in a fit of pique over the very offense that he and and his boys are themselves past masters at -ie trolling. So be it.

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  34. Observer says:

    The site has been engaging in an increasing number of anti-Sinn Fein feeding frenzies in recent times. No matter what the post is ostensibly about, it seems there is always room for an attack on republicans.
    Some of the posts themselves appear to encourage this, with headings such as this thread.
    A previous thread contained unsubstantiated and plainly ludicrous allegations against Sinn Fein elected representatives and went unchallenged by the moderators. The allegations could easily have resulted in legal action as they were directed against named individuals and were so ridiculous that they were plainly untrue.
    My sense is, and this could be simply the result of my own partisan viewpoint, that similar allegations against elected representatives from other parties would result in post deletions.
    Are Sinn Fein regarded as “legitimate targets” in a way that others are not?
    I agree with Pat, Slugger is increasingly a cold house for republicans and if they abandon the site it will be much diminished.

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  35. SuperSoupy says:

    nice one [sic],

    I mentioned no individuals from the 3 groups possibly defamed above are likely to initiate action.

    The point was Mick clearly doesn’t understand how defamation works and it is useful for him to be aware that unnamed individuals from small groups can easily claim defamation and the burden of proof (truth) falls on the defendant.

    In this case Mick can easily follow your advice to let a post that is legally dubious stand merely because he is unlikely to face direct legal challenge. That’s only following the rules when you are likely to face punishment for breaking them, an abandonment of the ball and man crap.

    (note to self: why am I feeding the troll? stop it)

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  36. SuperSoupy says:

    Observer,

    There’s a more productive way to view it. The bile is a result of the electoral humiliation dished out by SF, each post of vemon is a sign of how deeply it cuts them.

    I enjoy the fact that they can no longer post as dissident anti-policing Republicans for fear of the pointed finger and laughs. The reinvention of these anti-SF trolls and their pointless wasted anger is something that can raise a smile.

    Just think of how twisted up in knots they’ve got themselves and how ultimately when judged by the electorate SF just gain and gain regardless of daggers thrown on this or any other website.

    Laugh it off, when push comes to shove SF end up winners..that makes the trolls what?

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  37. nice one says:

    LOL

    para one fromHIstory Lesson: The Nats were wonderful chaps and above all criticism when they organised Tobbacco, Tax exemptions, Copy CDs, Shirts, even fake Vodka for the Sinn fein Provisional IRA in the area for decades.

    SouperSmiley: The allegations in para one could possibly allow action from any member of SF in Ballymurphy.

    niceone: HA! I’d like to see the Ballymurphy Shinner that would bring History Lesson’s post to court over defamation LOL. Talk about opening a can o’worms. Suffice to say that’s an investigation that will never see the light of day LOL

    SouperSmiley:I mentioned no individuals from the 3 groups possibly defamed above are likely to initiate action.

    niceone: I am agreeing with you about the fact that action is unlikely to be brought

    LOL LOL

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  38. SuperSoupy says:

    Observer,

    Something that does annoy me though is presenting articles by controversionalists like Myers and Emerson that contain sweeping generalisations and offensive stereotyping and then insisting that comments are given from a higher plain than the content presented.

    It’s like two boxers entering the ring, one is given a stick and the ten free digs. The other is told to stand still and not defend themselves from the bat and then to only respond via the medium of interpretive dance.

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  39. Observer says:

    SS

    You are correct up to a point.
    Nevertheless, the notion that republicans can be the subject of spurious allegations in a way that wouldn’t be tolerated against non-republicans should be a relic of the past.
    The fact that it is an increasing feature of this site deserves to be highlighted.
    I’m tired of republicans making allowances for the temper tantrums of sore losers.

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  40. Observer says:

    SS

    15 was in response to your 12.
    Had to watch the end of Fletch.
    Agree with you about the Myers and Emerson stuff.
    It really gets annoying when people they normally wouldn’t give the time of day to are regarded as credible information sources when they make an allegation against republicans.

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  41. SuperSoupy says:

    I don’t think any Republican makes allowances for it, that’s the site owner.

    His site, his rules.

    Tonight we have Ingram making serious and unsubstansiated allegations against a named SF member again – it’ll stand as always.

    We have claims being made about the entire Notorantonio family. A local SF cumann. Claims about Eoin Morley. They’ll all stand.

    They all share one thing, they are part of contributions that are agressively anti-SF, they are all unsubstansiated and are claiming illegal activity without one shred of evidence or corroboration.

    Rabbit punches are a fact of life here. Rabbit punches being allowed to remain when they are anti-SF is just part of the Slugger experience.

    I can’t see it changing and am surprised that Pat has walked over what is normal form here.

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  42. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    SS,

    I am more than happy to strike the comments, if someone can point out where they play the man. I am extremely (some would say too extremely) sensitive to this kind of gaming and very quick to move even where it involves people who are unlikely to take action.

    I should add that on review of this thread, I have closed (rather than removed) your own comments at number 3 on page one since you clearly go beyond any evidence in the public domain to apportion blame (by name, which HL explicitly does not) for this appalling incident.

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  43. SuperSoupy says:

    I think those Irishmen who fell with the International Brigade or the ‘Connolly Column’ should receive more recognition during Easter commemorations.

    http://www.connollycolumn.org/ccolum.html

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  44. SuperSoupy says:

    Firstly, the above comment was added to the wrong thread.

    Mick,

    If you can’t see how defamation (the law) works – ie. you don’t have to name an individual you can defame a person if they are a member of a small defamed group – we’ll have problems on this discussion.

    Your biggest problem is defamation of the Notorantonios, then those moving into vacant property, then members of the murph SF.

    You haven’t allowed allegations against any individual to stand but have ignored the fact that the law states defamation can take place without explicitly naming when a group is small and all individuals in that group are smeared.

    It’s one for you to call and you’ve clearly decided a generalised slur is ok (mainly on the incorrect basis you can’t be liable for them).

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  45. SuperSoupy says:

    And since you’re around and doing the man/balls stuff – your attention is drawn to Ingram’s unsubstansiated comments on McGuinness and Morley.

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  46. Observer says:

    SS
    I was hunting for a comment I read last week which accused Adams of killing 1000 people. Actually killing them.
    Couldn’t find it – maybe it was pulled.

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  47. SuperSoupy says:

    My rather pointless point is about the true definition of libel/defamation something that is barred under the commenting policy:

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2005/07/commenting_poli.php

    An untruth about a small group even when an individual is not named is potentionally defamation/libel.

    Mick implements a policy of as along as an individual is not named (unless of course it is Ingram making unsubstansiated claims about living or dead Republicans) ball/man rule over the true definition of defamation.

    I doubt generalised slurs would be allowed in any other situition ie. I hear that many senior members South Belfast Alliance are getting a good deal on cheap Chinese prostitutes or I have a tape where a senior blogger on Slugger’s admits to drug dealing and rape.

    A general and defamatory accusation or even an explicit one like those added by the spook are allowed to stand if they are anti-Republican.

    It’s Slugger. Aren’t we used to it?

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  48. Observer says:

    SS

    “It’s Slugger. Aren’t we used to it?”

    Doesn’t make it acceptable.
    Maybe its time to sit at the front of the bus?

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  49. seanzmct says:

    What an unseemly and pathetic Sinn Fein whinge-fest.

    What they are saying is that online Shinners should be given free reign to blacken anyone who dares offer the slightest criticism of them and their Sunningdaleism (with Paisleyism thrown in) for dunderheads.

    This can only be comprehended as a symptom of a movement accustomed to the certainties of the culture of the dictat, struggling to accustom itself to the unfamiliar constraints of democratic accountability.

    Shinners should get used to the fact that they are part of the new establishment in the north and to the spotlight of critical scrutiny. It’s called opposition.

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  50. Observer says:

    Sounds more like constipation.

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  51. Comrade Stalin says:

    I am sorry that Pat has chosen to stop contributing, I’ve always found his point of view invaluable, and of course informed, even though I may not agree with it. But it is the right decision to allow the post made by “History lesson” to stand. I think Pat is using a technique used by many political mavericks, including Stalin in the early 1940s. Come under pressure, and bow out; then everyone queues up to clap you back in again. It’s not the first time Pat has used this tactic.

    The other contributions on this thread here amount to, once again, republican whining. Republicans come under criticism, and for this reason the entire site is regarded as a huge witch hunt operation. You lads can’t take your slagging like men.

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  52. SuperSoupy says:

    “You lads can’t take your slagging like men.”

    You are probably the only Republican critic that can deliver that line with any credibility.

    Barring Pat every Republican is still here. The dissident trolls and most of the stoop wind-up merchants are still AWOL or operating under post-electoral red face nom-de-plumes.

    The muck slinging continues. The success is still unquestionable.

    I say – slap it up ye, the bitterness only shows how beat you are. Bring it on, the ministries and seats counter any bullshit better than words.

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  53. Julia says:

    SuperSoupy must be a very bitter and angry individual. If the blinkered and hypocritical views expressed by SS can be taken as a reflection of a wider SF opinion, it would appear (and worryingly so) that true Irish unity is a long way of. Clearly criticism of SF only comes from “dissident trolls and most of the stoop wind-up merchants”. I do not for a minute doubt the sincerity of such views but we have to realise that some people are happy to follow SF, blindly, happy to be told what to think, say and do and happy to surrender any individuality.

    Like many people, this “dissident troll / stoop wind-up merchant, etc etc” (and I must be ‘cos SuperSoupy says I am) is firmly of the opinion that when SF speaks, it does so with a forked tongue. It says one thing to the media which can often translate into something very different on the ground. Gerry has endorsed the PSNI but that has not cascaded to the grass-roots yet….

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  54. Comrade Stalin says:

    Soupy, all I know is that many unionists consistently accuse Slugger of being pro-nationalist, and many republicans continuously complain about unionist/anti-SF bias. That means Mick’s doing something right.

    There appears to be a tendancy in some quarters of republican thinking that has a hard time with free speech. I’m thinking specifically of that time when Gerry Adams told Mark Devenport not to ask stupid questions when he posed an entirely reasonable, albeit sensitive, question on the issue of the IRA army council. Pat seems to think that people should be stopped from posting speculation, disregarding the fact that hard facts about community issues, especially when they revolve around secret paramilitary organizations, are not easy to come by in the first place. Secondly, the complaints about speculative contributions only ever come from republicans when Sinn Fein is the target. Republicans are more than happy to continuously post all kinds of speculative innuendo about the RUC, PSNI, collusion, MI5 etc etc.

    Regarding the sock puppets, I don’t think they contribute anything at all. I’d like to see IP addresses being logged alongside people’s posts to put a stop to that. If push comes to shove and people want to be anonymous, they can find a cybercafe or something.

    It’s still a shame that Pat is not about. There are two types of republican contributors; the minority (comprising cg, Chris D, Pat and one or two others) who appear to argue their point rigorously and who provide real insight; and the Sinn Fein cheerleaders who are just repeating the party mantra and getting the boot stuck into the Brits/unionists/police/Alliance Party etc. I’m certain that a considerable chunk of the republican contributions here are coming from outside of these islands.

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  55. francesco says:

    This is a SF dominated area but the fact is that they do not carry the same clout “on the ground” as they once did… Going to the police is still not an option out of fear of reprisals and so a jungle war ha a free for all exists. May be SF could do more but do they really want to?

    Regarding the Republicans who post on here, they seem unable to dampen their anger and bitterness towards pretty much anybody else. Regardless of political differences, they nearly all persist in posting vitriolic, angry snipes at just about anybody who opposes the SF line. May be they are sent here to do just that? Either way, it stiffles any real debate.

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  56. seanzmct says:

    3.00am eh SuperSoupy? The nerves can get frayed and the mind addled at that ungodly hour.

    Still, amidst all the petulant trashing of anyone who dares utter the slightest criticism of the infallible machine of unsullied political piety that is PSF/PIRA, you do remind us of what the wee “war” was all about

    As you so triumphantly affirm, it was all about the precious “ministries and seats”. Yes “ministries and seats”.

    All those innocent people killed and maimed -all those lives wasted, including the volunteeers who thought it was a struggle for national liberation; all the resources trashed that could have been invested in health, education and jobs; all the polarisation of the working class, ghettoised in the north to the nth degree; all the predictable alienation of Protestants from things Irish; the deep well of hurt and pain. What was it all for, again?

    Why of course, “ministries and seats” in a partitionist six-counties Stormont assembly fronted by the defiant statue of Edward Carson and nary the flutter of a tricolour about the place.

    In short,a return to the future that was Sunningdale – only this time with the political knuckle-draggers who opposed it first time round, at the helm of the ship of fools.

    And, if there is any “slapping up ye ” to be done, you would think that Republican-ultras,who dedicate themselves to bullying online propaganda, might just for once take a reddener and show a bit of humility in the face of decades of monstrous folly.

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  57. cynic says:

    I strongly support Mick’s stance on playing the man, but this thread is becoming a great winge fest and it just makes it boring for everyone.

    The SF supporters feel hard done by? Fair enough but then anyone who says anything against that party here is likely to be howled down or at least abused, even if it was a balanced comment. The problem is that many of the less bright ones (and there are some real exceptions on Slugger) havent yet discovered that real politics is as much about listening as spouting propaganda. ‘Debates’ can then rapidly degenerate to ‘my da’s bigger than your da’ stuff.

    But, to an extent, that’s politics and if u dont like it, well there are other ways to spend your time and many of us who do come here hope you will use them!

    PS why am I a troll? because i dont want my email inbox cluttered up with abuse

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  58. Observer says:

    “But, to an extent, that’s politics and if u dont like it, well there are other ways to spend your time and many of us who do come here hope you will use them!”

    Why would you come here?
    Mutual backslapping?

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  59. Token Dissent says:

    I agree entirely with Comrade Stalin’s point of view and I would like to encourage Mick to maintain the high standards of fairness and consistency that he shows.

    The idea that this site is a cold house for republicans is frankly laughable. We often hear the same complaint by unionists when they feel as if they are being ganged up on.

    I find it interesting that nobody has seriously challenged the assumptions behind History Lesson’s analysis….

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