Hain waves a shillelagh
The government is to publish the draft legislation for the Irish Language Act, only a week after the consultation closed.
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Douglas Murray – Bloody Sunday: Truth, Lies and the Saville Inquiry, Book Review
The aftermath of the Saville Inquiry into the events around Bloody Sunday has left me, and I suspect many others, with one enduring image: Prime Minister David Cameron’s apology in the House of Commons, where he says that the actions of the British Army were ‘unjustified and unjustifiable.’ But there’s a lot more to the [...] read our review » -
John Laird for Christmas?
John Laird (Lord Laird of Artigarvan) is unionism’s jester. His memoir A Struggle To Be Heard ” by a True Ulster Liberal” (from Slugger’s shop on Amazon here) might serve more as a heavy stocking filler than anybody’s idea of a main present. In it he wears the masks of comedy and tragedy to turn the [...] read our review »
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What Ireland did right (and what it needs to do)…
It is difficult to believe now that one country recently sent 19 delegations to Ireland to study how well our economy was managed. The revelation that our model of economic management featured positively in political and economic discussion in countries including Estonia, Greece and Scotland may also come as a surprise. As we survey the [...] read our review »
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nmc
I agree. I have the same attitude to the Twelfth. Many maniacs around on that day too, and I resent the cost.
Its not just the cost though. Its the fanatical attitude of these people that annoys me. Its pretty obvious to me that we need less division here, and the Irish language, rightly or wrongly, is one symbol of division. Why artificially resurrect the language? Languages develop naturally and organically, not as a result of laws and subsidies.
“1. It is very unpopular in the Unionist community.”
Lots of things in the Unionist community are unpopular in mine and get public money. Not good enough.
“2. It continues the pattern through this process of less Britishness and more Irishness. Unionists would have by and large lived with more Irishness if the Britishness had been left alone. However, people get peeved when what they identify with is reduced and what others identify with is promoted. There is also a concern that this “greening of Ulster†creates a ‘chill factor’ about whether people perceive a long-term future in Northern Ireland especially among the middle classes.”
We are moving from a situation where Paisley could march up the Falls in pursuit of a tricolour in a shop window to a situation where at least some Irish symbols can be displayed or funded by the state. Even if “Britishness” remained the same, the six counties would feel less British because it no longer has a monopoly.
But that is irrelevant, as this point has nothing to do with Irish and is effectively whataboutery.
“3. It was identity issues that proved crucial in undermining Trimble eg the RUC name and badge was not about policing but about identity.”
What has this got to do with anything? The RUC, completely, totally unacceptable and despised by Nationalism shouldn’t change to something that could be supported by everyone because you have identity issues with it? Not good enough reason. Again, whataboutery and nothing to do with the Irish language.
“4. Depending what is in the Act it has potenital impact on employment patterns in the public sector in which Protestants are already under-represented at entry level. (And before anyone starts yes I know there is an under-representation of RC’s at a senior level, it is possible for two different disparities to exist in a workforce at the same.)”
Complete supposition and we have fairly draconian equality legislation.
Your argument boils to “themmums want it, we must oppose” and allergy to Irishness in any shape.
kensei
“Your argument boils to “themmums want it, we must oppose†and allergy to Irishness in any shape.”
You see, here we go, equating the Irish Language with Irishness. I am 100% Irish. I also think the Irish language bandwagon is a load of twaddle intended to manufacture artificial cultural differences between the Irish and British where none exist.
I don’t think my Irishness precludes my also being British. Many of the more extreme Irish enthusiasts would say it does.
On another note, 80 years of massive state support in the south hasn’t saved the language, despite the lack of the British bogeyman to blame. In fact the gaeltacht regions have shrank continuously. As I have said, a language is either living or dead. If it needs state laws and subsidies it is already dead, and you need to ask what is the motivation of the people who insist on pretending this is a bilingual country. Some are motivated by a genuine love of the language, and I respect that. However, we all know why republicans are so fascinated with the language – the creation of more battles with unionists to distract from their defeat in the war.
“Its not just the cost though. Its the fanatical attitude of these people that annoys me. Its pretty obvious to me that we need less division here, and the Irish language, rightly or wrongly, is one symbol of division. Why artificially resurrect the language? Languages develop naturally and organically, not as a result of laws and subsidies.”
Exhibit A in why the “centre” here collapses. Because what the “centre” means, is giving up things you consider important and like, so you can just on with each other / reduce division / various other bollocks. Everyone loses.
The language is not being artificially resurrected. The state is getting involved in response to pressure from a section of the electorate – perfectly natural.
“You see, here we go, equating the Irish Language with Irishness. I am 100% Irish. I also think the Irish language bandwagon is a load of twaddle intended to manufacture artificial cultural differences between the Irish and British where none exist.”
Your are right. By claiming the Irish Language is Irish, I am quite, quite mad. I am not British. I am just Irish. I speak a tiny, tiny amount of Irish, some of my relatives are fluent and went to Irish schools and I have no wish to see it die out. Lots of people agree with me and what you personally think is largely irrelevant.
“I don’t think my Irishness precludes my also being British. Many of the more extreme Irish enthusiasts would say it does.”
You can be what you like. Lots of moderate people are just Irish and have no desire to be british, even supposing they could.
“On another note, 80 years of massive state support in the south hasn’t saved the language, despite the lack of the British bogeyman to blame.”
Really, I could have swore there are people who are as passionate in the South as the North. There is even a TV channel and everything. The language will never be the first choice of everyone on the island (and I never said such a thing would be a good thing), but it is in no imminent danger of dying.
“yadda yadda yadda bollocks distract form defeat in war”
People are still working towards a UI in case you haven’t noticed and that type of language does no one any good.
OC,
Good info.
Look, I faced a storm of protest the other day because I backed Chris’s right to have a go at the SDLP. Some people didn’t like it, but it had to stay not because it made an important point but there no grounds on which to remove it.
Now what exactly are you expecting me to challenge here. If you are chiding me for not have written more myself on/in Irish, I would take your point… (there are only so many hours in the day…)
Otherwise, what is your valid complaint?
Languages develop naturally and organically, not as a result of laws and subsidies.
The penal laws had a pretty devastating affect on the development of the Irish language. Now, over the past thirty or fourty years, with minimal funding it has reached the stage where there are a choice of Irish language schools in Belfast.
The point I’m making is that it has developed without subsidies, now a significant proportion of people want to see investment in a language that has overcome adversity just to survive, and is now growing in strength.
JohnT,
you are missing the point. It is not for you to decide what deserves funding.
If something is of cultural value to a significant section of society then it is the duty of the government to do its best to provide for it – be it horse racing, Irish language, Morris dancing, rugby etc.
A mature society doesn’t preclude support for one group because of jealousy on the part of another or because witholding support can be used for political leverage.
If that was the case we would all be living in a monocultural monolith with the best rugby team in the world.
On funding for the Irish language in the Republic, the success or lack of it of government funding is neither here nor there, the point is whether the people want it funded. It is their money after all.
They can decide to build an aircraft carrier if they want. It has been decided that the Irish language is a cultural treasure to be cherished as best the State can.
The people are free to lower its importance if they so wish but there is no movement of note in the Irish Republic to diminish the status of the Irish language.
There is also no movement to reduce funding for Gaelscoileanna. Or is there a clandestine push for a constitutional referendum that I should know about?
Not a big fan of state support for Irish, outside assisting voluntary education in Irish, like any other language. However I had to take issue with this from BonarLaw:
“You want the right to use Irish in court? I want the Royal Arms displayed.
You want to talk to a constable in Irish? I want a (Proper) Crown on his uniform.
You want to communicate with government in Irish 365 days a year? I want a Union Flag on government buildings 365 days a year.
Deal or no deal? ”
So the equivalent of gaining an answer in Irish, to a question in Irish is
1. Royal Arms displayed in Court
2. (Proper) Crown on Police Uniform
3. Union Flag on government buildings 365 days a year?
Have you heard of English? It is the language you are using to communicate above, and in which you are receiving a response now.
The equivalent (if equivalences are needed?!?) of gaining an answer in Irish to a question posed in Irish is an answer in English to a question posed in English surely?
As for your above requests I would say yes yes and yes on the following conditions:
1. Irish governmental Harp to be displayed alongside the royal standard.
2. Garda badge to be displayed beside the (proper) crown.
3. Irish tricolour of Green White and Orange to be flown alongside the Union flag 365 days a year.
And the following tag:
English, Ulster-Scots and Irish to be recognised as official languages of Northern Ireland.
Deal or no Deal?
JohnT,
I am sorry if you and others have had bad experiences re overzealous Irish teachers.
Try and decouple those personal memories from the rights of Irish speakers in their own country.
You say that a language is either living or dead in the same thread as you say Irish is semi-dead.
And your comments about organic language growth have zero professional sociolinguistic references.
The vast majority of Irish language speakers in NI don’t beat up people or wear offensive T-Shirts. Neither do the vast majority of Unionists.
They don’t speak Irish to be divisive either.
And if Unionists hadn’t spent 100 years trying to erase irish from their culture (check out old unionist and orange bannerettes) they wouldn’t find themselves on the ‘back foot’ as much as they do now.
And I’m no republican either BTW.
Thank you Symbology for saving me the time to answer BL.
JohnT, I thought you were referring to people who held executive or public roles in the Republic, not some nutjobs you came across in Donegal (btw why wasn’t the violent tutor reported?) which is why I asked you to name names because I don’t think such people exist these days.
It’s a pity you had such a negative experience in your time in the Gaeltacht, for most people who go to summer college in Gaeltacht areas I think it’s generally remembered fondly and any self respecting teenager can overcome the restrictions which have loosened anyway in more recent times. Although the ‘no English’ rule you refer to does, imo, have a sound enough logic because if it didn’t exist the whole point of Gaeltacht Summer Colleges would be negated to a large extent.
As for the ‘Irish Language people’ you talk about any large body of people or organisation will be infected by eejits. You’re a Unionist now, fair enough, but the logic of your thread re. Irish would mean that any time you come across a fundamentalist bigot within the Unionist political belief system it could send you running (back) towards Irish Nationalism.
BL hit the nail on the head, stating this was not about “linguistic rights”. Cynical stunts and games are OK if we are the ones to benefit. If it’s “them” who look like getting the upper-hand it’s a different matter!
Heard Catriona Ruane on TB today. Because she speaks Irish, are we meant to assume that she is more informed than most about the matter? Given how SF has hacked at the Irish culture for decades, she is the last person that should be speaking on matters “irish”!
Symbology
Why would we need Irish state symbols in a British court, on a British police uniform or on a British government building?
Now let’s cut to the chase before anymore server space is wasted on this. Does anyone think this Bill will ever get Royal Assent? If not does anyone think a similar bill would get passed at Stormont?
Much like the language itself, this thread has become academic given the political realities on the ground.
The ignorance and narrow-minded monolotism illustrated in many of the messages on this thread show that unionism still has a long way to go – but sure we knew that already.
JohnT – Irish Gaelic is a vibrant language spoken by 1000s of people in Northern Ireland. It is much stronger than Scottish Gaelic and should i know – i speak both.
This warped view that Irish is somehow an attack on British and unionist culture needs to go. It’s for everybody to use and enjoy. The world is looking on in despair as DUP politicians and their followers are openly campaigning against language rights and multiculturalism.
Can the average Ulsterman not open his arms (and mind) and welcome essential legislation for the north’s indigenous tongue?
‘Can the average Ulsterman not open his arms (and mind) and welcome essential legislation for the north’s indigenous tongue? ‘
Cuan – I think they will in 5 to 10 years when the Troubles are more distant and the extent of their victory over Irish Nationalism can be viewed more objectively
Well said RG Cuan.
It is imperative that an Irish Language Bill gets passed at Westminster. Royal Assent was given to the Welsh and Scottish Gaelic Acts and there is no logical reason why it should not happen in Northern Ireland.
The Government cannot give in to bigots and should not use Irish as a political tool. Shame on Hain.
Scott
“It is imperative that an Irish Language Bill gets passed at Westminster”
Why? Perhaps in order to bye-pass our recently elected assembly which would not pass a similar bill. So much for the need for local democracy!
Am I the only one enjoying the delicious irony of nationalists hoping the DUP prevent devolution in order for Westminster to legislate for the Irish language?
BonarLaw
It is ironic that nationalists wish to pass Irish language legislation through Westminster.
However, this wish illustrates the sad state of affairs in Northern Ireland ie, that this step has to be taken as unionists would veto the Bill in Stormont.
Local government is important but when it denies basic rights and still forces the will of bigoted politicians upon a linguistic minority, other measures must de sought.
BonarLaw,
“Why would we need Irish state symbols in a British court, on a British police uniform or on a British government building?”
Blah blah blah, British as Finchley, change the record and join the 21st century.
If you *really* don’t know the “why?”, I mean *really*, then I feel sorry for you because you’ve either got severe emotional problems involving an extreme lack of empathy, rendering you incapeable of forming normal relationships with other human beings, or you’re an ignorant plank.
If you know the “why?” but you think being provocatively facetious is clever, it’s not.
Scot
ah, I see.
Symbollocks
I do so enjoy being told to join the 21st centuary by advocates of the Irish language!
TV 4 … Irish Lang. T.V. Station
This is now being received from Divis Mountain
Is this part of the Package?
BonarLaw,
That may well be true, and I hope plenty of Irish Language Advocates ask you to join the 21st Century to increase your mirth. I, however, do not advocate the Irish language, beyond academic study, the same as any language.
Kindest Regards Old Boy,
Symbollocks
Symbollocks
thank you for your best wishes.
Given the way this thread is progressing I doubt anyone could increase my mirth but thank you for trying.
Toodle Pip!
“Why? Perhaps in order to bye-pass our recently elected assembly which would not pass a similar bill. So much for the need for local democracy!”
Actually it probably would. It would be a compromise deal, but we have a mutual veto and not a single veto. SF could kill every and any DUP measure it liked if the DUP wouldn’t play ball and SF would probably come off better, particularly if they had attempted compromise first. We have mutual veto, which means the choices are horse trading, or paralysis. I think political reality would quickly force the former.
kensei
so in the consultation period on the Bill you will be calling for the NIO to withdraw their proposals and leave it up to the Assembly.
Me too.
“so in the consultation period on the Bill you will be calling for the NIO to withdraw their proposals and leave it up to the Assembly.
Me too. ”
Heh. Smart politics is using the situation and opponents folly to help you achieve your aims. I’d be pushing for the best Irish Language Act I can get knowing that it helps pressure the DUP to go into the Assembly. Win / win for me.
kensei
I suspect the DUP aims include no Irish Language Act and cover from HMG to sell the new executive to their base.
As you say, win/ win.
OC
You think that 600 odd consultation resposes represent ‘democracy’ and hundreds of thousands of votes for parties that stated their opposition to this Act don’t?
Seriously?
I understand that you are angry, but surely this thread alone shows you that there is no broad consensus for a right-based Irish lanaguge act, and that a broad consensus is necessary if the thing isn’t to become a farce?
As I understand it the draft text of any bill has to consulted on in public, so this isn’t an extra step, this is a necessary and usual step. It was the first step (the first consultation)which was different, but hardly unexpected due to the speed of the appearance of the issue on the legislative agenda and the need to hurriedly get a sense of what the Irish language community thought and what was possible (surely you agree that there are major capacity issues with a rights based approach?)
That’s one way of looking at the question. Of course the other way is more valid, in my opinion, that is DCAL placed more weight on the 7% which said no than it did to the 93% who said they were in favour of a rights based Irish Language Act. That’s perverse.
Prior to this consultation, which ended on 2 March, it was argued that there should be a draft bill – but DCAL itself rejected that and said there wouldn’t be enough time for a second consultation. So now, because they didn’t get the result they sought, they’re trying the course you’re advocating.
As for the proposal that the first step was necessary to ascertain what the Irish langauge community thought, well that had been set out in POBAL’s Draft Irish Language Act, published last April or May. That had been arrived at after a two year consultation process, involving the Irish language community, world renowned authorities on language rights etc. At the launch the former head of the NICS, Maurice Hayes, said it was a reasonable Act and well within the capacity of the NICS to deliver.
As for your false equation at the beginning of your post, ou think that 600 odd consultation resposes represent ‘democracy’ and hundreds of thousands of votes for parties that stated their opposition to this Act don’t?, you have to bear in mind that hundreds of thousands of people also voted for the parties that support the Irish Language Act which included the SDLP as well as SF and the Alliance Party – at least according to Anna Lo who spoke with Lá Nua – and not to mention the Green Party as well as numerous independent candidates such as Brian Rowan etc.
The only approach with which there is a major capacity issue is the schematic one as that relies on the good will of the public bodies and if that isn’t forthcoming, the legislation is useless and a waste of paper. The rights based approach is necessary in the north, to avoid the legislation being rendered next to useless by footdragging civil servants etc.
In the final analysis, the areas not covered by this draft bill are the ones which really would have had a positive influence. Broadcasting, signage and the likes – it would have done wonders for the language if the BBC was compelled – as it is in other parts of the UK, to give an adequate service in the local languages and this was funded from the licence fee.
Oilibhear Chromaill
2 weeks ago in a Slugger thread you abused other (non-Irish speaking) commenters in Irish, which was only brought to the attention of the wider Slugger audience by someone who could actually understand what it is you had written.
And you wonder why some people may have an issue with you communicating in it on this site.
Are the Irish (who are now Scots) any less British than the Scots (who are now Irish) because they speak a related form of Gaelic?
FD: “1. It is very unpopular in the Unionist community. ”
It would be, wouldn’t it…
FD: “2. It continues the pattern through this process of less Britishness and more Irishness.”
Why must it always be a zero sum game in the eyes of Unionists? As Irish approaches an even footing, Unionist confidence wilts. Are you so insecure that equality must be an impossibility?
3. It was identity issues that proved crucial in undermining Trimble eg the RUC name and badge was not about policing but about identity.
IOW, it’s all about Unionism insecurity… must keep the symbols, lest the damned Paddies forget who has the whip-hand.
4. Depending what is in the Act it has potenital impact on employment patterns in the public sector in which Protestants are already under-represented at entry level. (And before anyone starts yes I know there is an under-representation of RC’s at a senior level, it is possible for two different disparities to exist in a workforce at the same.)
Is this a function of religion or some other factor, such as education?
“The Government cannot give in to bigots and should not use Irish as a political tool.”
Hear, hear. Withdraw the act immediately.
This is worse than a waste of money. It’s an attempt to further divide an already polarised community; reinforcing the language barrier that separates the community. Are they seriously expecting anyone to apply for a British Passport in Irish Gaelic? There is no practical grounding for this legislation. It’s an ego trip for republicans.
Someone above was advocating that the act go further and instead of just having the Chief Constable defined as a public body, have the entire PSNI included, the idea presumably being that any recruit to the police be fluent in Irish. And you wonder why unionists oppose the whole concept?
By the way, in response to an early comment on the thread, I’ve already been told by a nationalist blogger who shall remain nameless that Irish is not part of my heritage. This is rubbish, it clearly is. On more than one occasion it has stoked enough curiosity in me to go and research where certain placenames or surnames came from, and it’s a topic I find interesting. Interesting though, not essential.
All the talk is about “respecting our culture” – fine. Do what you like as your culture. We actually have a government department that looks at culture. They can promote the language all they like, but the realm of culture us where Irish Gaelic belongs, not in the NHS or DVLNI.
Dread, you criticise unionists for seeking to keep symbols of Britishness in public life as part of an argument for forcing a symbol of Irishness (for the vast majority, including most activists, that’s still all it is) into public life?
I’m always curious about these type of knee-jerk responses; it seems that much of the carping comes down to sheer bigotry meets sheer laziness.
Dread, you criticise unionists for seeking to keep symbols of Britishness in public life as part of an argument for forcing a symbol of Irishness (for the vast majority, including most activists, that’s still all it is) into public life?
Why not have two languages? English is used everywhere. It’s simply a parity of esteem issue.
I’m sorry.
What is the point of this legislation? It is a sop to Republicans. The language is not spoken by anyone except people trying to make a point.
This is a monumental waste of money. It will annoy more people than those it will please. As a Catherine Tate character would say: “What a load of $h!t!”
No doubt this post will raise the indignant, self-righteous hackles of the Sinn Fein contingent. So be it.
beano: “This is worse than a waste of money. It’s an attempt to further divide an already polarised community; reinforcing the language barrier that separates the community. Are they seriously expecting anyone to apply for a British Passport in Irish Gaelic? There is no practical grounding for this legislation. It’s an ego trip for republicans. ”
and
beano: “you criticise unionists for seeking to keep symbols of Britishness in public life as part of an argument for forcing a symbol of Irishness (for the vast majority, including most activists, that’s still all it is) into public life? ”
Actually, beano, the Unionist stance on Irish represents a discontinuity in the pattern of “British” behavior — native tongues in three of the four components of “Great Britian” are respected, whilst one is not. Is it somehow unjust or unreasonable to seek an equal footing amongst the native languages of the United Kingdom?
As for your other comment, there is a difference between seeking equal standing and the need to “tag” your territory like a dog or hoodlum, as if someone might forget who is in charge.
Richard: “What is the point of this legislation? It is a sop to Republicans. The language is not spoken by anyone except people trying to make a point. ”
And opposed by those insecure in their culture hegemony.
I am surprised there has been so little correspondence in Irish by those who speak the language.
To keep things in perspective we should have another language act proclaiming English to be the official language in NI
The government in the South should introduce similar legislation to reflect the reality of the situation and to build confidence in the Unionist community.
Home rule is Rome rule could very well be replaced by Gaelic rule.
Let us all acknowledge English to be the International language and be pre-eminent.
At the same time the teaching of Irish should be supported but those who speak the language should have no other rights.
The purpose of any language is to communicate and Irish should only be used by those who do not understand English.
Dread, it’s not about equal status for cultures though. Nobody’s using the English language as a badge of their culture, or like some dog pissing up against a lamp post the way Irish Gaelic is being used.
As has already been said here today a language is a tool for communication, which is born out of necessity. There is no necessity to use Irish as a means of communication. The so-called “need” is for cultural recognition then fine, have projects financed through the existing budget for cultural pursuits, not by burdening vital public services with added bureaucracy.
And the position here is not in contrast to Great Britain because the positions aren’t comparable. Both Welsh and (to my knowledge) Scottish Gaelic are actually spoken by real people as first languages in those countries – and this predated legislation.
confused (an apt handle, btw): “To keep things in perspective we should have another language act proclaiming English to be the official language in NI”
See — so insecure as to need a scrap of parchment to somehow reinforce the obvious.
confused: “The government in the South should introduce similar legislation to reflect the reality of the situation and to build confidence in the Unionist community.”
Is the notion that someone out there is speaking gaelic *THAT* frightening, confused?
confused: “Home rule is Rome rule could very well be replaced by Gaelic rule.”
Is that tin-foil hat too tight? It would seem to be impeding the flow of blood to your brain…
confused: “At the same time the teaching of Irish should be supported but those who speak the language should have no other rights. ”
Why should Irish speakers be second class to those speaking the native tongues of Wales or Scotland, confused? Gravy for a goose is gravy for a gander. It would seem that, despite a successful election, there are those who would appear to be hearing footsteps.
The purpose of any language is to communicate and Irish should only be used by those who do not understand English.
That’s certainly one use of language…
But don’t pretend that it’s the only one: not even remotely close. Many, many, many writers and philosophers have argued that it’s perhaps not even the most important one… But perhaps you’ve read all of their work and disagree. I’m willing to wait and hear your rebuttals.
Home rule is Rome rule could very well be replaced by Gaelic rule.
Good jaysus. You’re not serious…Have you ever even been south of the border?
beano: “Nobody’s using the English language as a badge of their culture, or like some dog pissing up against a lamp post the way Irish Gaelic is being used. ”
No, but there are those wanting to use the Crown and Union flag for precisely that purpose.
beano: “As has already been said here today a language is a tool for communication, which is born out of necessity. There is no necessity to use Irish as a means of communication. The so-called “need†is for cultural recognition then fine, have projects financed through the existing budget for cultural pursuits, not by burdening vital public services with added bureaucracy. ”
Bureaucracy is leading sector in N.I., beano. This change would produce little more than a mild swelling in the state-dominated morass y’all call an economy.
As for communication, I would point out that the official position of some would be no communication at all, be it in English or Gaelic.
beano: “And the position here is not in contrast to Great Britain because the positions aren’t comparable. Both Welsh and (to my knowledge) Scottish Gaelic are actually spoken by real people as first languages in those countries – and this predated legislation. ”
Ah, but is it their sole language? And does not recognizing and supporting a minoritiy language such as Welsh impede communication? If communication is soooooooo important, why support such minority languages at all?
Frankly, beano, Unionist intrangiesence has more to do with insecurity than either fiscal responsibility or a deep-abiding desire to communicate with their Nationalist neighbors.
Dread Cthulhu – “And opposed by those insecure in their culture hegemony.”
Don’t make me laugh. This is the sort of drivel that passes for an “argument” from Republicans. Pathetic.
Glad to see my post elicited the predictable from the Shinners in their little ghetto.
To yoda
I have certainly been south of the Border.
As a matter of fact I studied Irish for six years in Dublin and obtained some profiency both spoken and written.
My world fell apart when I learned that Peig was a tissue of lies written by a nephew and there was no truth to her writting.
I then gave up my studies
Richard: “Don’t make me laugh. This is the sort of drivel that passes for an “argument†from Republicans. Pathetic. ”
Aw, poor Dickie…
Take a good look at some of the arguements being tossed off around here — confused with his “Home rule = Rome rule = Gaelic rule” being a good starter.
Symbols are such a zero-sum game to the symbol-minded.
Richard: “Glad to see my post elicited the predictable from the Shinners in their little ghetto.”
Aw, Dickie, I would suggest you check your assumptions. Just because I don’t find “drive-by” post worth much effort does not make me a “Shinner.”
That said, your obvious lack of courtesy, your “drive-by” style of posting and derision would suggest you’re not really here for an intellectual exchange of ideas.
“Why must it always be a zero sum game in the eyes of Unionists? As Irish approaches an even footing, Unionist confidence wilts. Are you so insecure that equality must be an impossibility? ”
Equality means one community to get more and another to get less. Hmmmm.
As for zero sum, I suggested in an earlier comment how it can be win win.
“it’s all about Unionism insecurity… must keep the symbols, lest the damned Paddies forget who has the whip-hand.”
LMAO. So Unionism wanting symbolry it identifies with is all about insecurity/or desire for hegemony but Nationalism seeking symbolry they identify is all about equality. Hmmmm.
As for whip-hand, yawn. This is NI in 2007 not 1966.
“Is this a function of religion or some other factor, such as education?”
There is no shortage of Protestants with entry level qualifications for the civil service.
I have certainly been south of the Border.
Then what were you on about?
I learned that Peig was a tissue of lies
Oh jaysus, that’s a good one! Peig claims another victim with her “tissue of lies”! We used to change her name to either “Pig” or “Bog” on that horrible brown cover. She’s not beloved of many Irish schoolkids. I’m amazed she had such an effect on you.
No mention of any of the other authors studied in your six years before the Peig incident?
Seriously, are you for real?
As for whip-hand, yawn. This is NI in 2007 not 1966.
So, you’ve forgotten the 2005 DUP manifesto?