What did we make of the Spotlight debate tonight? When I saw the format I was unsure, but It seemed to work quite well.
I must make a special mention of my good friend Jonny Hadley’s contribution – asking Gerry Adams about the truth recovery process in relation to the RUC. He got quite a reaction.
Thoughts?
Extract from Greg McLaughlin and Stephen Baker: The Propaganda of Peace: The Role of Media and Culture in the Northern Ireland Peace Process. Bristol: Intellect Books. 2010. Political opponents Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness were confirmed as First Minister and Deputy First Minister of a new executive in May 2007, closing yet another chapter in [...] read our review »
Kensei
You’re entirely correct on your latest points.
The premise of MCT‘s comments is false anyway. It is quite clear Alliance has been attacking the UUP and SDLP far more than anyone else, for the quite obvious reason that that’s where the battle lines are.
I guess the very point they’re making is that if you’re Unionist, frankly you may as well vote DUP, and if you’re Nationalist, frankly you may as well vote SF.
The true extremes these days are represented by factions of all the sectarian parties, and by Ennis, McGeough and co.
It’s a pity but Adams was right about that young man. We have so many young people obsessing about the troubles, that 22 year old man was 9 years of age when the IRA declared their cessation in 1994.
It’s very easy for such young people on both sides to take up hardline positions and spout rhetoric, they did not see the outworking of such positions and rhetoric, in blood.
It’s saddening to see, it really is.
It’s up to Nationalists to teach their children that the “struggle” was not glorious, and in many cases sickening acts where carried out in their name.
It’s up to Unionists to teach their children that the RUC/British Army/UDR where not impartial innocents in the troubles, and no one has a monopoly on victimhood, especially when you were still in nappies when the troubles ended.
The sins of my father are not my own, nor are the sins against him, against me.
If we don’t learn from the mistakes of history we are doomed to repeat it.
If young men and women spout the tired rhetoric of old soldiers they absolutely deserve a slap on the wrist and a stern talking to. If a child goes to put his hand in the fire it’s not “patronising” to shout NO!
The consequences are too fucking dangerous.
well let’s just think that through.
Firstly only SF groupies take seriously this crap about the war stopping in 1994. There were two policemen murdered after that in Lurgan, for no other reason than to send a message to HMG and the evil prods.There was/is serious criminality- Macro, Northern bank, Mccartney and Donaldson killings, which may not have been directed at our community as a whole, but are clear evidence of ongoing propensity to crime.
Until one month ago Gerry & co were content to ignore these matters- apparently they still are, if Gildernew’s unfortunate honesty is anything to go by. No worries that memebrs of the movement will ever be grassed uo for ciggie/petrol smuggling,torching the odd orange hall,or punishment beatings. But Gerry would like you to rat on your neighbourhood joyriding spide,kiddy fiddler, or mugger.
perhaps the young man has a grave to visit, with the kller of his father still at large- perhaps he’s not even lucky enough to have a grave.
I agree those of us who actually lived through La Mon, Bloody friday, Teebane, etc etc need to be honest about those times. But it’s wrong to say that those with a past should ever be allowed to think we forget or forgive, especially since it’s a lot more recent than 1994, and we’ll only stop the next generation repeating our mistakes if we get a proper sense of perspective- which means admitting that the current SF/IRA leadership is unfit for office
Darth
“There were two policemen murdered after that in Lurgan, for no other reason than to send a message to HMG and the evil prods”
Yes, that was August 1997, shot in the back at a very tense time in the summer. Very cynical and never to be forgotten by me.
There was also the Feb 1996 bomb in London, which killed two Londoners. Again we must not forget.
It didn’t end in 1994 at all, and there were DAAD killings during the 94-96 ‘cessation’, and other killings after 1997.
So things have taken some time.
Darth
Where is the criminal convictions for Macro, Northern bank, Mccartney and Donaldson killings and the torching of the odd orange hall.
Sure we could say where are the convictions for Harryville,Holy Cross,Ahogill and Carnmoney but
nationalists dont deem unionist politicans unfit for office because of bigots in their community.The election today represents to the chance to move on from this yet still remember the suffering from the past in a sombre way.Hopefully we all can do this
It’s very easy for such young people on both sides to take up hardline positions and spout rhetoric, they did not see the outworking of such positions and rhetoric, in blood.
Unfortunately-Adams-is-right.
But that is why the GFA and SA addendum is so hopelessly off beam, as it is a sectarian stitch up which cannot set the divide in stone.
In my opinion the real crime of both the Unionist and Republican/Nationalist Parties who accepted this UK state stitch up, is that they willed the norths sectarian differences to future generations, with all the bitter confrontations this will undoubtedly lead to in the future, instead of making a real attempt to solve this problem, or at the very least build some sort of democratic cross community consensus that the majority of both communities can live with, whilst their political representatives work peacefully to resolve the two communities differences over nationality and nationhood.
The above should have read, “cannot but set the divide in stone.”
apologies
I think that the main cause of concern regarding the Troubles is that one tends to remember the crimes that were perpetrated against ones community yet ignore the crimes that were perpetrated by ones community. I think lessons in history is valuable for all to learn so as to understand the past, know where we are today so as to have hope for the future.
Ignorance tends to be bliss in NI.
I thought G.Adams lost the plot on Spotlight, he,as always, patronised the DUP . That,s OK they can stand up for themselves. The young questioner was a different matter ,Adams was both patronising and dismissive and just plain rude. He also did not answer other questioners Re”PSNI” Awful performance!
Bring back the middle ground, all is forgiven!
Well, you have until 10 tonight to do your part in that. Votáil Alliance.
Bring back the brains.
Bring back the midle ground!
So do you Pádraig. Votáil Alliance.
Gerry Adams, having been shot in the chest and almost killed, having been interned without trial, and having lost numerous friends and relatives, has as much claim to victimhood as most. Despite that, he has led a revoluitonary movement away from violence, towards peace, democracy, government and power-sharing, acceptance of the colonial courts and the colonial militia.
Poor oul’ Gerry, and him with nothing but a second home in Donegal and a series of lucrative lecture tours in the US to see him through his retirement. Cry me a river, MCT, cry me a friggin’ river.
It horrifies me that the Alliance and other moderates are becoming increasingly shrill and nasty in their condemnation of the two largest parties.
Party attacks other party in election shocka! Gerry Adams isn’t the only one looking tired and saying stupid things as the campaign comes to a close. Do you understand this whole “freedom of speech” thing, MCT? You seem to want SF to be put on some sort of unbroachable pillar; and I seem to remember having this same conversation years ago.
In normal democracies political parties viciously attack one another on their programmes, but also make the institutions of government work. You seem to think our institutions of government are too fragile to have healthy, robust, political debate; that’s the road to permanent abnormality.
Poor oul’ Gerry, and him with nothing but a second home in Donegal
See what I mean MCT.
Sammy
If Alliance meant more by the middle-ground that the right to be opportunistic in both directions then they might be taken seriously by more voters.
See what I mean MCT.
All you bourgeois Shinners seriously need to grow a thicker skin. If you can’t take a bit of a slegging from me, what would you do if slartibuckfast got stuck into you? Oooops, silly me, you’d get him sacked from his job like you did to Newtown Emerson.
If Alliance meant more by the middle-ground that the right to be opportunistic in both directions then they might be taken seriously by more voters.
That’s nearly as patronising as Gerry Adams to that fella on Spotlight last night. I’m not middle-ground, I’m liberal, and that means standing up to the cosy sectarian carve up worked out by the SDLP and now to be taken over and operated by you and the DUP, and all the human and financial waste that goes with it.
Seriously, you seem to have a real difficulty with criticism of Gerry and the Shinners. Do you find a string ensemble pops up behind you to play Barber’s Adagio for Strings any time someone criticises Gerry Adams?
Sammy
Seriously, you seem to have a real difficulty with criticism of Gerry and the Shinners.
In all fairness if we had a serious problem with it why would we stay on this site and argue the toss about it.
A lot of people leave here but the Shinners in general stay and fight their corner. So when it comes to dermatological impenetrability I don’t think we can be considered wanting.
I just consider it a distorting factor in the debate (here and elsewhere) and one that is a barrier to progress.
If Adams retired to Donegal in the morning the fundementals of politics in the north would not change.
What ever can be said about his past words and deeds, but in fairnes you have to give Adams credit. He has brought the Republican movement on in leaps and bounds. The abandonment of the ‘armed struggle’ and the adoption of a political strategy must be credited to him. He gets constant criticism and haranguing from all quarters, from Unionists to Republican dissidents. He is the best leader the party has had so far and the Peace Process owes alot to him as well. Compare life in the north today to 20 years ago. Is it not an improvement?
“dermatological impenetrability”
Reminds me of that eejit who was trying desperately to sound intelligent by saying “terminological inexactitude” on Spotlight, but ended up just ballsing it up…
Henry94
Amazing.
Funny how these are the people who accuse shinners of being Adams cultists, when the reality is that they are the ones with a morbid fascination over Gerry.
Sammy Morse
Your knowledge of six county politics is staggeringly impressive, and your insights are fascinating, but every once in a while, you let yourself down a bagful. You did it with your reference to Patsy O’Hara as a “‘successful’ hunger striker”, and you’ve done it again here. Some of your comments, and the kind of treatment being meted out to Adams recently, have little to do with policy, or the cut and thrust of party politics – it’s old fashioned, pseudo-Paisleyite demonology. It appears to me that some measure of hatred is in your heart young man, and it’ll do no good there. Such hatred, while easily succumbed to in the heat of electoral battle, offers peace and politics here nothing whatsoever. Be well.
DUP Unionism could well do with an Adams figure; might help modernise its outlook in the secular world today instead of it lingering permanently in a bygone age of superstitious religious fundamentalism and witchtrials.
Extra, extra! Sammy Morse pseudo-Paisleyite! Read all about it!
Honestly, you couldn’t make this stuff up.
It appears to me that some measure of hatred is in your heart young man, and it’ll do no good there. Such hatred, while easily succumbed to in the heat of electoral battle, offers peace and politics here nothing whatsoever.
(Emphasis mine)
Unbelievably patronising, MCT!!! Now that Uncle MCT has patted me on the head and told me off in a stern-but-loving, Werther’s Original, sort of way, will he give me 10p to go and buy a mix up?
Despite our obvious differences, MCT, I almost always enjoy your posts – often penetrating and with a sometimes brilliantly dry humour (I loved the line about that opinion poll being taken outside a Belfast Giants’ game). Your great weakness is that you can’t separate criticism of Sinn Féin from demonology. And sometimes SF themselves can’t, like Gerry’s patronising overreaction on Spotlight last night.
You always go on about how people react to their ‘neighbours’. Well, the vast majority of my neighbours vote for Sinn FéÃn, and some of my family members will be getting out the vote for them today. I don’t hate my neighbours, my friends or my family, and don’t presume that I do or that you know what is inside my heart.
Your problem is that you seem to think that Sinn Féin in general, and Gerry Adams in particular, are so decent, so right, so good that the rules of debate that apply in any other society don’t apply to them. Well sorry, the rules apply the same to Gerry as they do to anyone else. If he makes a tit of himself on Spotlight, he can expect to be ripped to pieces on Slugger, just as Durkan, Paisley and Ford can. That’s politics; if you’re going to put yourself up for election, you can expect plenty of people trying to tear you down. The messed up places are the ones where politicians can’t be openly attacked.
You yourself often indulge in fairly barbed criticism of other parties. In particular, you indulge in especially nasty rhetoric whenever the subject of the Alliance Party comes up. That’s fine. We’re big boys and girls. But what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; if you’re going to dish it out, be prepared to take it as well.
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So Gerry lost it last night but were any of the others great confidence builders?
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Wouldn’t it be nice to see the Assembly back up and running?
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Wouldn’t it be nice to see the MLAs dealing with water charges, health and housing?
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Wouldn’t it be nice if SF and the DUP formed a lasting, stable government without the ding-dong styled blame game which passess for politics here?
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Just a thought…
“What ever can be said about his past words and deeds, but in fairnes you have to give Adams credit. He has brought the Republican movement on in leaps and bounds.”
I’m sorry he is only finishing what he started under the constraints of consensus. It wasn’t an army road-block ahead but a political one.
True, but Adams was able to influence fellow travellers of the Republican movement, particularly the hard liners (prior to 9/11 and international events). They were all brought on board, ok, bar a few disillusioned splinter groups and cranks. But a deal was brokered under his stewardship. It could have gone askew and who knows what could have happened. But it didn’t and he chartered a political course. All can see the merits today. Credit to John Hume and Dave Trimble.
Gerry Adams treatment of that young man was discraceful. He did not need to refer to him as ‘son’ or deride him because of his age. The young man in question made a fool of himself when Adams asked him if he recognised the equality of all victims and he shook his head.
On tthe point about the questioners youth, I wonder if Adams would say that an 18 year old had a lot to learn when he was giving orations over the graves of 18 year old IRA volunteers?
Sammy (forgive the length)
You’re being eye-rollingly disingenuous. Were there available to me a politics.ie-style eye-roll emoticon, I’d use three of them right here.
There’s a line (and we all know there’s a line) between legitimate attack which is to be expected in party politics, especially around election time, and vitriolic hate-ridden abuse of particular political figures which throws yet more obstacles in the path of power-sharing harder. It’s not even a particularly fine line, yet it’s been overstepped so often in this campaign that those of us who, within our communities have been arguing for years for a more conciliatory, understanding, out-ward-looking republicanism are truly sickened by it. Gerry Adams has brought SF and the IRA to accept the PSNI and the British judicial system – I mean, what in the name of God more do you people want from him!? The stuff he takes on a daily basis is not policy-based or ideologically grounded – it’s just abuse, pure and simple. It has become the stock in trade of every hack in the country and every internet troll in Ireland. The whole “ball, not man” rule on this site in particular appears to be in permanent suspension as regards Adams.
As Henry pointed out before, Shinners and bedfellows on here are more than prepared to take a bit of a beating, especiallybecause they’re not afraid to dish it out. For you to suggest that we are thin-skinned is transparently vacuous and intellectually beneath you. However, we are entitled to call others when they overstep the mark of decency and genuine debate and slip over into the abusive, offensive or deceitful. Particularly seeing as the moderators do it to us. That’s what I’ve done on this thread and elsewhere.
Sammy, I don’t think for a second that you hate your neighbours, that’s why I didn’t use that form of word with respect to you (as you point out, it’s a favourite of mine). But I do think you harbour some serious and bitter feelings towards Gerry Adams and other republican leaders. The “succesful hunger striker” thing is the kind of political tourettism that typically reveals a substructure of hatred.
I think the Shinners are ripe for the occasional slegging, just like all the other parties here, but in recent months and years, the Shinners have been moderating their rhetoric significantly, largely, it seems, with a view to encouraging their community to contemplate hard choices, like IRA stand-down, backing the PSNI and accepting Paisley as FM. The only inflammatory thing I’ve heard from them has been directed at the NIO – hardly a vulnerable group. In contrast, the invective against SF from many quarters continues unabated. Spotlight was a case in point. Unionists (including those in APNI) should be applauding Adams.
Now, I’m not so naive as to see SF as incapable of sin; however, they and the communities they lead have come a long way – longer than anyone else in this process, and in such a way as to deserve a little respect from the likes of you, who’ve never had a good word for them in the past.
cont’d
Which rather brings me to my own pet angst towards Alliance. You’re right that they get the lash of my tongue more than other parties. The reason for that is their hypocrisy. I’m pretty comfortable with the DUP and the UUP – both of them basically do what it says on the tin. But the Alliance Party paints itself as above sectarian politics and neutral on the national question, yet more often than not, this neutrality is notional in practice. On policy, they are absentee landlords on numerous issues on which cross-community leadership is vital – they’re useless on power-sharing because they don’t have enough support for a ministry, they flirted with the DUP on voluntary coalition, they’re nowhere on collusion, they’re absent on parades and they offer no leadership whatsoever on hate crime (which, let’s be honest, is a bigger worry for republicans than it is for unionists) unless it involves attacks on ethnic minorities. For crying out loud, they couldn’t even agree that it was ok for gays to have a nice room in Lisburn for a civil union ceremony.
There’s a reason why they have been all but wiped out in nationalist areas – it’s because they’re not liberal enough. they’re a pary of soi-disant moderates and phoney liberals. They simply don’t care about almost anything that people in republcan communities care about. And why? Because … no votes there. Alliance always choose to dance with the one who brung ya. Instead of fighting to show some relevance to both sides of the house, they’ve abandoned majority nationalist areas (good luck in South Belfast, though – I think Anna Lo is a weak candidate, but I think her presence in the Assembly would send an important message). Moreover, they appear to reserve a special loathing for republicans – my observation is that the vitriol they spew towards shinners vastly exceeds any attacks on the DUP. Maybe it’s perception, maybe not – I think not.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing I have ever said about the Alliance party has been laced with the type of acidic disdain, vituperative contempt and snarling hatred I hear from Alliance and fellow travellers. My attacks on APNI are based not on hatred, but on perennial disappointment. And puh-lease don’t get me started on “patronising”. I’ll simply ask you to consider your own collective beam, and refer you to “Your problem is that you seem to think that Sinn Féin in general, and Gerry Adams in particular, are so decent, so right, so good that the rules of debate that apply in any other society don’t apply to them.” I’m amazed you could type the word “patronising” with a straight face – it should be excised from the APNI lexicon. The very existence of APNI is an exercise in patroni..i..sation(?).
Ultimately, whether you like it or not, hardline unionists and hardline nationalists are going to have to make peace here. It will make that job all the harder having APNI hurlers on every ditch perpetuating the myths and waving the shrouds of the past for generations to come.
Anyway, I’m sure your political efforts over recent weeks has been enormous. I’ve enjoyed your constituency profiles immensely, and will hopefully look back on them with more fondness than Barney Eastwood. Best of luck tomorrow in whatever races matter to you. South Antrim and South Belfast no doubt.
mct
The whole “ball, not man†rule on this site in particular appears to be in permanent suspension as regards Adams.
He is THE public figure for a party/organisation which excuses a murderous campaign carried out against our fellow coutrymen. This is not a light issue to be easily dismissed. It is serious. It is for this reason that many believe him to have exceptionaly poor judgement, (to the point of being treasonous against the irish Nation).
You are right. It is personal. It is against him, the man but I feel it is done so with considerble justification.
Henry94:
In all fairness if we had a serious problem with it why would we stay on this site and argue the toss about it.
A lot of the chuckies on this site – not you Henry – do nothing but whine. Whine about the “unionist bias”. Whine about the decisions of the moderators. Whine when one of the editors such as Pete writes an article that is critical of Sinn Fein. And here you guys are again, whining about the Alliance Party attacking Sinn Fein and others, as if it isn’t normal.
SF is going to have to get out of the habit of using the victim status to try to denigrate their opponents. Now that they are constitutional nationalists, there is nowhere further for them to go with that line. Might they try a bit of constructive politics instead ?
You guys might like to think that everyone is in some kind of debt to you because Gerry Adams and his crowd took risks for peace. While there is nothing wrong with recognizing the work that he has done, you have to remember that the fact there was a war in the first place was largely down to the armed offensive sustained by the Provos over an almost 30 year period. Unionism, likewise, did nothing to stop the violence and in fact spent much of their time sustaining it.
MCT:
There’s a line (and we all know there’s a line) between legitimate attack which is to be expected in party politics, especially around election time, and vitriolic hate-ridden abuse of particular political figures which throws yet more obstacles in the path of power-sharing harder.
MCT, read any thread about the Alliance Party, and tell me where you think the line should be drawn.
The “succesful hunger striker†thing is the kind of political tourettism that typically reveals a substructure of hatred.
Give me a break and stop whining. The “Bobby Sands fish supper” jokes are all over the place in Northern Ireland, and you’ll hear them in nationalist neighbourhoods too. Now personally I find jokes about death generally to be a bit out of order and not that funny, but this is the dark sense of humour that people have here. Nothing to do with hatred. Try to remember that not everyone shares the same reverence for a group of criminals who decided to sacrifice themselves for political purposes.
Moreover, [Alliance] appear to reserve a special loathing for republicans – my observation is that the vitriol they spew towards shinners vastly exceeds any attacks on the DUP. Maybe it’s perception, maybe not – I think not.
More victimology. While we’re talking about political risks, is there any chance of some recognition for the one Alliance took when it supported Maskey for Lord Mayor ? There was an attempt to petrol-bomb the party headquarters, and David Alderdice had to endure loyalist protests outside of his house, having abuse hurled at him while he took his young children to school. Granted this is not on the same scale as being shot at, but have you ever heard a republican nodding in Alliance’s direction ?
Ultimately, whether you like it or not, hardline unionists and hardline nationalists are going to have to make peace here.
Or what ? Hardliners are not going to make peace. The “moderates” couldn’t do it, so how can the hardliners ? Perhaps you are convinced that there can be a sustainable government between people who still won’t even speak to each other. I think it remains to be seen.
I was not a plant in the audience, nor am I am member of the DUP. I am a Ulster Unionist, normally a listener, not a questioner. I asked a straight forward question, althought to be fair I did not expect a straight answer. However, I did not expect to be patronised and dismissed due to my age. I have my own personal reasons for asking the question I did and no one has the right to say that I shouldnt think of what happened in the past. Enquiries such as the Bloody Sunday enquirey arestill on going, yet murders of both Protestant and Roman Catholic RUC officers, Security Force personell and inocent civillians remain not properly investigated. Familys deserve answers!!
Jonny you’re right.Families of RUC deserve answers
Which politician organised the riot which killed
Frankie O’Reilly
Comrade and Sammy
I think Alliance would do well to fundamentally rethink the message it conveys! The whole we are not part of the tribal blocks type of presentation is deeply dubious.
Anyway you will probably have a fair enough day tomorrow somewhere between 5-7 seats.
Basically we will have a Assembly very similar to the last one. Am I optimistic NO.
Crat,
I’m just an Alliance supporter, I am not trying to convey the party message.
In all truthfulness I do not feel like part of one of the tribal blocs. I’d probably be identified by the Census takers as a nationalist, but I don’t feel a shred of nationalism in me, and when I see the SDLP or SF talking it all comes across to me as a foreign language. Sometimes you’ll hear me saying positive things about a united Ireland, but that’s only because I’m looking at the economic realities staring us in the face. I don’t think I’m alone either. That is why I support Alliance, and I believe there are a lot of other people who think the same way that I do. Maybe they don’t all realize it yet ..
I think the Alliance message is the right one, it’s the presentation that could do with improvement.
Anyway you will probably have a fair enough day tomorrow somewhere between 5-7 seats.
I do not want to get excited just yet. That said, I have not been out and about so do not have a feel for the vote, and Sammy’s numbers are obviously impeccable.
Basically we will have a Assembly very similar to the last one. Am I optimistic NO.
While I think the notion of shared government between two parties who haven’t even spoken to each other in public yet is ridiculous, I do have a feeling that something might, just might, be pulled off here.
If something does happen and things get moving, the next big milestone is going to be the reform of the institutions, particularly is ridiculous executive system. The DUP don’t want it, Alliance don’t want it, and the Stoops and the UUP are going to get screwed by it so they’re not going to want it either. We also need to fix the stupid cross-community designation system. That’s going to be the big uphill task for Alliance in the coming years.
Comrade Stalin
“read any thread about the Alliance Party, and tell me where you think the line should be drawn.”
So you can do the victimology thing too then?
“Give me a break and stop whining [about a member of a supposedly non-sectarian party chuckling about the hunger strikers in a piece of serious political analysis].”
So would you be similarly permissive over jokes about the Enniskillen victims, or the soldiers at the Brady funeral, or the community policemen in Lurgan? No, I didn’t think so…
“Try to remember that not everyone shares the same reverence for a GROUP OF CRIMINALS who decided to sacrifice themselves for political purposes.”
So, you really do this cross-community thing well, don’t you. “No, no, we in the Alliance party aren’t even a little bit unionist.”
“While we’re talking about political risks, is there any chance of some recognition for the one Alliance took when it supported Maskey for Lord Mayor?”
Is there any chance of you going and boiling your head? How long did it take you to emerge from under mother unionist’s wing and do the right thing? The first EVER republcan Lord Mayor of Belfast was in 2002, 115 years after it became a city, despite Alliance holding the balance of power from 1997, throughout which period SF was the biggest or co-biggest party. Your record of duplicity, cravenness and partisanship in City Hall is to your eternal discredit, and should be to your eternal shame.
“Perhaps you are convinced that there can be a sustainable government between people who still won’t even speak to each other.”
So, you’re a liar as well? SF will speak to anyone. It is the DUP who refuse to speak to SF. Alliance should, if only because they might be able to remember it easily, tell the truth about where intransigence in this society lies. Until they do, I’ll continue to ridicule your claims to non-partisan alignment.
“The DUP don’t want [power-sharing], Alliance don’t want it, and the Stoops and the UUP are going to get screwed by it so they’re not going to want it either. We also need to fix the stupid cross-community designation system. That’s going to be the big uphill task for Alliance in the coming years.”
So, as long as it suits everyone else, fuck the republican community. Typical. And you brazenly, straight-facedly accuse me of victimology. Gimma head pace!
“Unionists without the kicking-boots” is the exquisitely apposite phrase I once read on guardian unlimited. It appears you’ve found a decent cobbler.
“The DUP don’t want it, Alliance don’t want it, and the Stoops and the UUP are going to get screwed by it so they’re not going to want it either. We also need to fix the stupid cross-community designation system. That’s going to be the big uphill task for Alliance in the coming years.”
The Conservative leader recently spoke against it too and he may well be the PM in about 4 yrs, when the whole thing comes up for review.
Ooooh, scary, scary David Cameron – do me a favour! He’ll be button-holing the shinners to score him some dacent skunk.
And even if he tries it, if the SDLP agree, they’ll go into free fall. This society foundered on the rock of victimisation and marginalisation of republicans. Anyone who seeks to repeat that will be both a knave and a fool.
“victimization…”
Personally I am not in favour of victimization of anyone.
There will be arguments for changing the system, as and when its flaws become more transparent, after a few years in government. The present system is, as Declan O’Loan of the SDLP said, experimental and most unusual.
Reading those long rants has made me sleepy.
Nite-nite, Prods and Taigs and anyone else, class conscious and not so bothered, precious and thick-skinned, alike.
What I’d most like to see is the end of the designation system. The government have been clear that they don’t intend to extend that system to the new councils and I think that its not regarded as a great idea, as it encourages people including MLAs to think in terms of separate representation of tribal blocks, rather than each MLA representing all the people of the constituency. There would be alternatives such as weighted majority voting and so on. D’Hondt does not itself rely on designation. I’m not convinced that we need full opposition-government type structures but I would like to see the committees beefed up in their scrutinizing roles for example. The idea of voluntary coalition would seem to be desirable long term, from the point of view of putting together agreed plans that can then be rejected subsequently at elections. However that is a few years down the line. All of the above is speculative and would depend on the experience of the executive, assuming it gets a few years’ wind.
I suppose one who goes around with the badge “i’m a taig” is likely then to talk of “victimization…” there is a pattern there.
slug, give over – it’s typically transparent from a posters first few posts “what they are”. Your posts are generally more entrenched than mine.
Personally, slug, I could live with the kind of sytem you envisage. The designation system is there to stop unionists abusing any more informal arrangements in order to exclude republicans. If unionists can prove that they can behave in a respectful way, then weighted majorities, and perhaps even voluntary coalition (if you’re very, very good), could be on the table. They’ll have to do some proving though. I see no sign as yet.
A fair wind, indeed…
Are we agreeing on something?
Comrade
I voted 1-Alliance today, but couldn’t get particularly excited about it. Candidate, as so often, lacks charisma, etc.
So yes, it is about presentation.
How do you think this could be improved?
MCT, I suppose so [agreed], given what you say.
Tho’ I am not the best judge of my own degree of entrenchment
I’ve always been interested in how the labels thrown around here as markers of debate–”MOPEry,” “whataboutery,” and the like–get mobilised.
It’s no surprise to anybody that these labels remain political, but the problem I have with them is that they are often the words of an (intellectual?) elite. They don’t seem to represent or speak for the current political landscape. Since they remain political, they then can seem like they are the property of a politcal elite. I think that’s what rubs people the wrong way.
So, even though labels like “MOPEry,” etc, are somewhat clever and seem to have a post-nationalist veneer (in the Habermasian sense, I suppose), they often operate in a manner that I would say is contradictory given what they blot out the reality of popular politics, ironically often in the name of “rationality,” “enlightened debate,” “human rights,” etc. Often, post-nationalists are also strong supporters of state authority, a combination that makes me a little twitchy.
I think that a careful weighting of the two communities is going to be the name of the game in NI for the forseeable future.
Northern Ireland has been far too dysfunctional for far too long for anything else.
“a combination that makes me a little twitchy.”
As is, I’d suggest, the idea that “it’s typically transparent from a posters first few posts ‘what they are’”.
The less we have of commenters assuming “what they are” the better.
There is a reason why we have a ‘play the ball, not the man’ rule.
^^Too cryptic for me, Pete.
You quote me and reply to MCT.
The first EVER republcan Lord Mayor of Belfast was in 2002, 115 years after it became a city, despite Alliance holding the balance of power from 1997, throughout which period SF was the biggest or co-biggest party.
What did Alliance have to do with the first 110 years of that? Nothing, zero, zip. The first chance we got, Alban Maginness was given the Mayoralty, and having played a fairly major role in getting rid of the Unionist majority four years before most people thought it was possible, I look back on that with pride.
Marie Moore was Deputy Mayor in 1999. The SDLP in Derry, for example, only deigned to give Cathal Crumley the Mayoralty there in 2000. The same year we supported Maskey for the Mayoralty. Despite reasonable grounds for concern over Crumley’s performance, Maskey got it in 2002. Alex did a good job. Fair play to him. Belfast is a better City for that.
As for the shit a lot of our people took over it – I’m not expecting a Nobel Peace Prize but your own double standards are plain for all to see. Sinn Féin are the real victims who took risks for peace, everyone else just dragged their feet. Of course.
Your record of duplicity, cravenness and partisanship in City Hall is to your eternal discredit, and should be to your eternal shame
All this means is that we don’t often don’t agree with Sinn Féin and sometimes vote against them in Council votes. Get over it. If Alliance and Sinn Féin agreed on everything, they wouldn’t need to be different parties. Disagreeing with Sinn Féin and, hell, even disagreeing with the SDLP on any given issue does not make you a crypto-unionist bigot just itching to dance over nationalists in your carpet slippers. It’s called democracy. No-one’s refusing anyone a job, refusing anyone a vote or sticking a bomb under their car over it. Get a sense of perspective.
The nature of democratic politics is that sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Would you be more comfortable in a benevolent dictatorship run by MCT?
Sorry Yoda
I didn’t mean to confuse, nor connect the comments.
One response lead, my mind, into the other. That’s all.
Nae bother, Pete.
“Sinn Féin are the real victims who took risks for peace, everyone else just dragged their feet.”
I don’t say that anywhere. Must you caricature my points?
I’m all for disagreement, debate and democracy. But for the greater good, they must all be carried on with restraint here. I guess it’s the lack of restraint in the vitriol against Gerry that gets my goat.
In fact, we are voting to elect a dictatorship – the tyranny of universal government (except you lot of course
(probably)).
“Would you be more comfortable in a benevolent dictatorship run by MCT?”
Dear God, the very thought. A aggressively liberal, pro-life feminist, with a penchant for tax-and-spend, and a policy platform blending criminalisation of adultery and private healthcare services, compulsory voting, strong family values legislation and aggressive defence of gay rights and single mothers, interventionist foreign policy for humanitarian reasons and pre-emptive aggression in response to environmental degradation. In an All-Ireland context.
It would have to be a dictatorship, because even I wouldn’t vote for me. We’d have free petrol from Hugo Chavez, but no-one could use it because all vehicle ownership and use would have been brought within state regulation.
And we’d be at war with France within hours.
MCT
And we’d be at war with France within hours.
At last the real enemy. Now you’re on to something positive.
There is a bit of Anjou I would like back.
at the rate middle-class taigs are buying holiday homes there, Crat, we’ll wrest it back for you in no time.