Ireland in historic test….
Despite the protests, Ireland take the field in what has to be a serious test of nerve (and my own highly speculative five pounds on Ireland to take the Championship).
England arrive relatively buoyant, but the feeling always lurked that Scotland made them look better than they are, and after their pedantic effort against Italy, their true level probably lies somewhere in between.The debutant David Strettle will bring a youthful and pacy confidence to their wing but the reborn Jason Robinson, ruled out yesterday, has undoubtedly been their sharpest cutting edge. Alongside Olly Morgan, making his first Test start away from home, it gives their back three a callow look.
The perming of Wilkinson and Andy Farrell’s distribution has undoubtedly given England more width. Even so, the quicker the tempo, the better Ireland’s chances. For sure they have to start proactively and crank up the physical intensity – as they did in the second-half against France – from the very kick-off. Rugby is a simple yet brutal game.
First and foremost it’s a fight. Ireland didn’t seem quite attuned to that the last day until after the fight had commenced, but against England, under the Saturday-night lights at Croke Park, such relative passivity will surely not be repeated.
As pertinent as Wilkinson’s dodgy hamstring is O’Driscoll’s healed hamstring. It was eye-opening that his absence was so manifest against France, as much in defence as attack, but the boon of his return may also be felt in D’Arcy and Shane Horgan returning to their natural positions.
O’Driscoll’s defending in the outside centre channel and his potency may well free up his fellow Leinster gamebreakers and even the likes of David Wallace and Denis Leamy. Peter Stringer’s service should also offer the kind of tempo Ireland need.
Dubliner,
‘It is also noted that Northern Ireland nationalists who play in British teams do so without making ridiculous demands about that realm’s national anthem and flag. ‘
Ah but that’s different because well because well because they are used to it or used to be used to it ? I think
Good point Dubliner – the nail as usual on the head
Excellent post cutting through a lot of the usual oul bull 
Rubicon,
‘We need to deal with complaints from unionists. I’m not sure how representative these complaints are ‘?
Maybe the latter question needs to be answered before you start imagining the former. Sammy Morse however has a point re NI people from both sides of the political/sectarian divide not being able to sing the Anthem in Irish .
This whole ‘anthem ‘ business goes back to the separate political identities and probably will never be resolved to everybody’s satisfaction. All we can do is enjoy the day for as long as it lasts and look forward to 6 in a row at Twickenham next year assuming we make it 5 in a row if we play and defeat England at the World Cup in France later this year!
I thoroughly enjoyed the game on Saturday and as an Irishman I was ecstatic at the result. However, as per usual the intransigence on this website just serves to sour the whole occasion for me. Nationalists never tire of making me feel, that as an Irish Unionist, I’m not quite as Irish as you are. The [i]like-it-or-lump-it[/i] comments to Unionists on this thread are just puerile IMO; no-one wants to address the fact that Unionists have issues with the IRFU’s stance on encouraging RoI emblems, anthems and politics to be used on an all-Ireland sporting platform, where they don’t belong, and how dare us for pointing it out!
I hate to break to you but I am as Irish as anyone else on this thread purports to be and as such I feel that I should have as much right to cheer on an all-Ireland team without having Republican sentiment thrown by the bucketload into my face. Is that too much to ask? Just because my political ideals differ from those held by the majority of the Irish people in that I don’t want to be ruled from Dublin doesn’t make me any less Irish – I too was born on this island after all.
The team that took the field on Saturday was not the team of the Irish Republic, it was the team for the island of Ireland, and I’m no doubt divorcing desire from reality for many of you here but those are two completely different entities. If the IRFU insist on presenting the President to the teams and playing the Soldier’s Song at games played at Landsdowne Road/Croke Park then surely it is only reasonable to expect the same gestures of politicism to be expressed when the Irish team runs out at Ravenhill next year? There are 2 states on this island after all: Why should the Northern Irish identity continue to be alienated from this all-Ireland perspective?
But the IRFU have put their foot down on the issue and insisted that GSTQ will not be played in Belfast and have even gone so far to get out of jail by labeling the friendly match against Italy next year as an ‘away’ game. If ever there was any proof needed of the exclusively Republican mindset of the IRFU then this surely is it. The Ireland team IS only representative of the Republic of Ireland. This flies in the face of the many Northerners who have disproportionately in terms of their share of the island’s populace (albeit not in recent years) pulled on the green jersey and played for the island over the years. Those players weren’t playing for a RoI team so why should the supporters be expected to pretend they’re cheering on one?
There is of course a simple remedy to this problem: drop the political anthems, flags and general RoI show and just play ‘Ireland’s Call’ instead. Until sense prevails and that day comes about I will continue to support Ireland in rugby, revel in their victories and tear my hair out when they lose because no-one is going to make me feel unable to support my island just because they don’t rate my Irishness as on a par to theirs. However, for the 5-10 minutes of Republican fanfare before the game I will continue to stay quiet and frankly feel embarrassed but then maybe that’s what the rest of the island wants me to do.
‘Why should the Northern Irish identity continue to be alienated from this all-Ireland perspective?’
A large proportion of the population in Northern Ireland see their identity as being represented by anb & the irish flag.
Tim,
That’s not really addressing my point at all is it? What about the part of Northern Ireland who see themselves as Northern Irish? How come their participation in any all-Ireland events is conveniently ignored and suppressed? The fact that we exist might be uncomfortable for you but until the day comes when we are accepted to be as Irish as any tricolour waving loon in Dublin is then there can never be a true all-Ireland team.
The fact that we exist might be uncomfortable for you but until the day comes when we are accepted to be as Irish as any tricolour waving loon
Great way to make a point about inclusivity.
However, despite your earlier comments, I believe most Irish Nationalists would want AnF to be dropped from home matches. However, I for one, am getting increasingly p*ssed off by Unionists on this thread who find AnF promotes a non-inclusive atmosphere at Ireland rugby matches but view the playing of GTSQ at Northern Ireland home matches as no bar to inclusivity.
What about the part of Northern Ireland who see themselves as Northern Irish?
Does this not contradict your remarks about being as Irish as anyone else?
“but view the playing of GTSQ at Northern Ireland home matches as no bar to inclusivity.”
And with thousands of fans shouting ‘no surrender’ during gstq at football games makes it all the more ‘inclusive’.
The only difference between rugby & football internationals is that the football international crowd is almost exclusively unionist so there would be very few who would be offended by the british flag & anthem.
Perhaps thats why players are choosing to play for the Republic rather than northern ireland
[i]“What about the part of Northern Ireland who see themselves as Northern Irish?”
Does this not contradict your remarks about being as Irish as anyone else?[/i]
No it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. As I’ve pointed out being Northern Irish and being Irish are not mutually exclusive terms. It might be hard for you to grasp but Ireland is not represented by the Irish tricolour. There are 2 states are this island and IMO that needs recognised a lot more than it is currently by the IRFU.
As for GSTQ being played at Windsor Park I don’t like it either – I feel a new anthem which fosters Northern Irishness, not Britishness, whatever that maybe should be written and played in its place.
Dessie
I’m not sure what ‘No Surrender’ chants have to done whatsoever with this thread. Go back to sleep
How thoroughly depressing that a subject that should be giving us much cause for cross-community pride and celebration, degenerates into the usual sectarian mud-slinging. I don’t care whether the ‘Soldier’s Song’, ‘Ireland’s Call’ or ‘God Save the Queen’ floats you’re boat (I think they’re all totally keek myself) – for ****’s sake we stuffed England – enjoy it for ****’s sake!!!! Could the Slugger website techy fellas not develop some system that filters out tedious b1goted blethering by Billy-no-mates dinosaurs who really need to take a long hard look at their sad, bitter, joyless souls???
Well done to the Republic. I have to admit you were a far better team. Thank you for respecting the anthem of the Ulster players and supporters which is also the anthem of our English cousins.
It’s a shame the anti-unionist clique who run rugby in the Republic, can’t see the hurt that they cause in denying parity of esteem to their fellow islanders, who are not republican. The union flag needs to fly at Ravenhill and the G.S.T.Q. needs to be played. Unionists need to have their identity and beliefs respected. Give us an “All IRELAND TEAM” everyone can feel comfortable with.
As I have said before I support England not because I’m English, but because i do not- cannot give my allegiance to the S.S. and the green, white and (bloodstained orange) tricolour.
No it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. As I’ve pointed out being Northern Irish and being Irish are not mutually exclusive terms.
No, what you pointed out was that being a Unionist and being Irish are not mutually exclusive terms. I’m just confused when you tell us how you’re as Irish as anyone else in one post and by the next post reveal that you’re now Northern Irish.
It might be hard for you to grasp but Ireland is not represented by the Irish tricolour.
I’m not sure which part of my response gave you that impression.
Totally agree with Dinger – I’ve been sickened by the bickering on this site (and plenty other ones without the same supposed gravitas), especially since Saturday. Those expressing strong opinions regarding the anthems, flags and all the rest of the irrelevant fluff are part of the problem. Quit the navel gazing and start enjoying being whatever shade of Irish you are without the pathetic persecution complexes.
Unfortunately for all those so wound up in having their own ‘identity’ recognised/honoured/not trampled on etc.., your identity to the rest of the world consists of bitter, self-absorbed, backward looking idiots completely oblivious to their good fortune. Try reading some of the New Zealand or Indian press reports over the past week and see how your identity comes across – you’re the news equivalent of a circus freak. Even closer to home the dominant sentiment expressed by English fans I’ve come across in the past week is utter bemusement, and why wouldn’t they be that way. The Fields of Athenry (or Anfield Road if you prefer) got a loud rendition in the Camp Nou last week, ffs, and Sunderland fans are discussing adopting it.
Anyone that goes looking for differences on a day when a side representing Irish Rugby put on a peerless performance that we are all lucky enough to have witnessed should be put in their place rather than pandered too. There is absolutely no satisfying ‘the what about me’ brigade on both sides. Unless you were one of the 20 players, it isn’t about ‘you’. If you want someplace where none of symbols offend your gentle sensibilities try Disney World
Needless to say the apples will think I’m on about them and the oranges likewise… Christ, if Tampax could replicate the self-absorbsion on display here they’d be delighted.
[i]I’m just confused when you tell us how you’re as Irish as anyone else in one post and by the next post reveal that you’re now Northern Irish.[/i]
I’m sorry I don’t get what you’re saying here. Are you saying that if you consider yourself to be Northern Irish that that means you are not Irish too? Being Irish is not defined by the borders of the 26-county Republic, they may have monopolised the term ‘Irishness’ to describe themselves but it doesn’t make it any more valid. There are 2 identities on this island; Republic of Ireland(ish) (however convoluted that sounds) and Northern Irish; both are as Irish as each other and as such both identities should be respected and represented by all-Ireland bodies like the IRFU.
DI
I can tell it’s a waste of time arguing with someone who think’s ‘Republic of Irelandish’ is an identity and (with rather amusing irony) forces his own identity on 45% of the Northern population.
Suffice to say we can agree the result was a great one (albeit one that didn’t exorcise all the ghosts of the French match).
As to the anthems my suggestion would be to start an online petition for the IRFU to stop the playing of AnF before Irish home matches. I’ll gladly sign it.
DO
If you are not Irish then we have a different nationality. You can call yourself British, NIish or whatever you want but it’s not the same nationality as Irish nor a version of it.
Irishness is a nationality open to everyone on the island. Nobody will force it on you but if you don’t want it then you don’t have it.
Dinger and Dec,
There is an example we can follow, which may help, not too far from home. They thoughfully changed the official name of the British Lions to the British and Irish Lions in order to reflect that team covers the UK and the Irish Republic. Pity the same courtesy could not be extended by the Ireland set-up to the Brits in their squad. May I suggest a way forward? Let’s start calling Ireland the “Irish and British Shamrocks”.
The Ulster players are too professional and focussed on their rugby to ever cause a fuss about it though. I’m just annoyed at the men in suits for the lack of respect they show, it is an embarrassing way to treat your own players. But it mirrors the wider lack of respect for British identity on this island, almost 9 years on from the day when even Sinn Fein promised they would respect it. It seems from some of the contributions that despite the GFA, some Nationalists still just can’t seem to get their heads round it … we can wait guys, you’ll get there eventually.
FIS
But it mirrors the wider lack of respect for British identity on this island
Did you see Saturday’s match, in particular the singing of the anthems?
…almost 9 years on from the day when even Sinn Fein promised they would respect it
Finally, someone dishes out some blame SF’s way.
Superb match, superb result.
The question had been raised and it was answered. Firstly, by the respectful way GSTQ was received and applauded. Secondly by the vibrant singing of the 2 irish anthems. Thirdly by the team giving the english a good thrashing.
Horgan had a storming game. There was a classic moment earlier on when he was chasing after a kick and one of the english backs was “in the way”. A soccer player may have run into him and claimed foul. Horgan just steamrollered the poor guy out of the way in his determination to reach the ball.
The pack were mighty. I just kept seeing england going backwards when they were in possession. O’Gara really was faultless. The whole team were marvelous. Sorry, this just seems to be a string of superlatives.
As an ulsterman and irishman, i am proud of the ulster and irish men who played.
As one of the few northern catholics who played rugby at queens, i didn’t get bothered about the ocasional bit of british symbolism. i was much more interested in playing well in games and having a good time with my mates.
Nuance and complex ideas seem difficult for many here. why can’t northern catholics support ulster rugby and northern prods support irish rugby? Ken Maginnis (a politician i generally disagree with) summed it up when he said there wasn’t much fun in ireland beating england any more as everyone was doing it these days. he firmly supports the irish team … but wait a minute, he’s a prod!! does not compute, system error.
To all the naysayers and the moaners and the people who want ulster to secede or such other nonsense – please take your own advice and suck it up.
Come on Ireland!
Diluted Orange:
‘There are 2 identities on this island’
Correct – political identities .
‘ Republic of Ireland(ish) (however convoluted that sounds) and Northern Irish’
Incorrect . It’s Irish approx 85% of the island’s popualtion and the remaining 15% British Unionist/Ulster/Northern Irish/ or whatever else you want to call yourself. Northern Ireland is almost 50/50 as between Northern Irish and British Unionist /etc etc etc etc !
‘However, for the 5-10 minutes of Republican fanfare before the game I will continue to stay quiet and frankly feel embarrassed but then maybe that’s what the rest of the island wants me to do. ‘
Now that makes sense . You can always silently hum GSTQ – close your eyes and think of England/UK /Ireland in the 19th century/the Empire /the Queen /and the Captains and the Kings while you’re at it
I feel a certain sympathy for your predicament and I wish there was a solution to it -but there isn’t . We just have to muddle through with what we’ve got . In a repartitioned Northern Ireland the British Unionist’s would have their own exclusive anthem and that would put an end to the ‘political predicament’ of having two political States playing as one country in an international competition . West and East Germans and North and South Koreans had and have their political differences . In sport they played separate teams and their bands played separate anthems .
Just enjoy the rugby and BTW if you feel Irish you are !Politically as a supporter of the Union however you are British not Northern Irish . Nothing wrong or anything to be ashamed of in that -it’s just that in situations like Saturday’s game you are the victim of being part of a small minority on the island of Ireland and an even smaller minority within the UK. Most of the 7,000 English fans present would probably not understand never mind sympathise with your predicament . For what it’s worth I do well a little anyway .
I still believe having 3 anthems for two teams is ridiculous but if thats what it takes to make Northern Unionist supporters happy then fine . As to playing GSTQ as Irelands anthem for internationals played in Belfast ? Sorry that’s a bridge too far and would be detrimental to the sport of Rugby across most of this island . Rugby has broadened it’s appeal mainly through the success of the international and provincial teams . Why would anyone want to undo that simply to placate the perennial ‘whiners’ for a minor inconvenience twice a year ?
Greenflag – you could have one anthem, the (ahem) neutral one. Surely? Bit farcical to play the Republic’s one then a neutral one … they can stomach GSTQ when it’s played for English Brits (congrats for ‘moving on’ but get over yourselves please) but not Ulster Brits it seems. If we and our nationality are that awful then don’t have a joint team with us. We have been prepared to have a joint team with the Republic despite all this – and despite how it makes us look to the outside world (i.e. happy Irishmen) – so it’s time now to show some courtesy.
FIS,
“Let’s start calling Ireland the “Irish and British Shamrocksâ€.”
The names of the two states in control on this Ireland are not “Republic of Irish Shamrock” and “Northern Brit-Shamrockland”. They are both Irish states with Ireland in their name. The only logical namechange is to “Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland” or “Republic of Ireland and the bit of the UK that’s on Ireland” or “non-British Irish and British-Irish Ireland”.
Basically, “Shamrock” and “Ireland” mean pretty much the same thing. And anyway, the Irish rugby team was called Ireland while it was all still within the UK. I guess the Ireland team was formed (and named) by Unionists?
Dec
[i]I can tell it’s a waste of time arguing with someone who think’s ‘Republic of Irelandish’ is an identity and (with rather amusing irony) forces his own identity on 45% of the Northern population.[/i]
It’s only a waste of time because you know, deep down, that what I’m saying is true. I didn’t force my identity onto 45% of the Northern population, as you say. Maybe you should read my posts before making up bullshit statements on my behalf to support your argument. The fact is that being Irish does not exclusively mean that you are from the Republic of Ireland or have to desire to become part of it. Northern Unionists have every right to consider themselves as both Irish and Northern Irish, they are mutually exclusive terms, and should not be alienated by the IRFU rugby team as they are currently.
If it makes it easier for you then change ‘identity’ with ‘nationality’ in my post. Whatever your posturing with percentage figures it doesn’t hide the fact that there are Irishmen living in Northern Ireland, who are Unionist, who object to the double standards of the IRFU on the issue of anthems. What is it that you don’t get? Play “Ireland’s Call” as the only anthem, end of story – everyone’s happy. I don’t see how it’s really that’s such a controversial step.
Greenflag
There is a simple solution just play “Ireland’s Call” as the only anthem for the Irish team.
DO
What you said was:
There are 2 identities on this island; Republic of Ireland(ish) (however convoluted that sounds) and Northern Irish;
In a stroke, everyone born in the 6 counties is stripped of their Irish identity. (sorry but that Northern Irish and Irish are not mutually exclusive mantra is just rubbish – the clue’s in the first word of your name). All this from someone who feels their identity is not being respected by the IRFU.
It’s only a waste of time because you know, deep down, that what I’m saying is true.
Dream on.
Greenflag
Northern Unionists will be be happy when the I.R.F.U. drop the militaristic S.S. It might be the anthem of Republicans but it is not the anthem of Unionists.
Just because a couple of thousand middle class prods tolerate it to watch a game of rugby the vast majority of Unionists ( the people who actually vote in elections)will NEVER accept it as their anthem or the tricolour as their flag.
It is your flag and antem and I accept that, but why do you expect unionists to suffer it without complaining about a lack of parity of esteem?
They thoughfully changed the official name of the British Lions to the British and Irish Lions in order to reflect that team covers the UK and the Irish Republic.
No they didn’t – the official name of the team has never been the “British Lions” even though this has been commonly used as a shortened name for the team.
The first tours were actually under the title of the “English football team” they were then called the “British Isles Rugby Union team” then the Lions nickname was officially recognised with the name “British and Irish Lions”.
The Lions anthem is The Power of 4 (who knew?)
‘The Power of Four’
From the four corners of our lands,
We’re united, hand in hand.
Together we’re stronger,
We join and proud we stand.
Now the day has come, we are one,
Standing tall for our Lions call.
We’re stronger, together,
We are the power of four.
Should we insist on the power of five?
Dil Orange,
‘There is a simple solution just play “Ireland’s Call†as the only anthem for the Irish team. ‘
And because it’s simple it sounds good but it’s also wrong . Even with just ‘Ireland’s Call’ the crowd will still wave their tricolours and sing Fields of Athenry etc so there is no way Northern Unionists who are ‘miffed’ about the anthem issue can win either way. More importantly the ‘marketing’ lads of IRFU know that any money to be made from rugby on this island is going to be made in the Republic with it’s largesse and it’s growing number of rugby players and supporters. So tapping into the ‘majority’ national identity makes good commercial sense . He who pays the piper in this sense literally calls the tune .
I’m not a particular fan of Ireland’s Call and even less of a fan of three anthems being played for two teams -I wonder if we are the only country in the world to have this kind of nonsense? . Now if you suggested ‘Wrap the Green Flag around me boys ‘as the single anthem I could accept that
Former ireland supporter,
‘If we and our nationality are that awful then don’t have a joint team with us.’
I believe this is the Ulster Rugby Unions choice. Nobody is forcing them to play for Ireland and although we would lose out on some good players from NI , just as in the economic and political spheres in life the Republic can do just as well without the NI contribution as with it ‘
It’s just a game of rugby after all is said and done . We musn’t lose sight of that ! Nobody was forcing a UI down the throat of any Unionists atending the game on Saturday !
‘We have been prepared to have a joint team with the Republic despite all this ‘
As I said I sympathise with the Northern Unionist predicament here but the economic and demographic facts of Rugby Union in Ireland today is that it is mostly a non unionist game played mostly by teams from the Republic and it’s there where the growth potential is in the game . With increasing numbers of Northern Unionists going to university in the UK and not returning the future prospects for the strength of game are not what they could be ! If the game is to grow in Northern Ireland it has no choice except to widen it’s appeal to the 45% of the NI population who are non Unionist -IMO.
So from a purely practical point of view it makes sound economic and marketing sense for the IRFU to maintain it’s present policy -IMO.
As stated by someone else Saturday was a victory for common sense and the great gesture by the GAA was amply rewarded .
‘they can stomach GSTQ when it’s played for English Brits (congrats for ‘moving on’ but get over yourselves please) but not Ulster Brits it seems. ‘
Are you suggesting that GSTQ should be played twice once for the visiting English team -and once for the couple of Unionists on the Irish team along with Amhrain Na Bhfiann and then Ireland’s Call for any in the crowd who feel they are still being left out by any of the above ?
With respect 99.9999999% of the crowd went to Croke Park to watch a game of rugby . As for getting over yourself I wish you and Diluted Orange the best of British luck in your endeavours
Would I be right in saying that the Irish Bowling Association which is an ALL IRELAND association use the non controversial Cross of Saint Patrick flag for international matches.
Does anyone know what flag the international ladies and mens hockey teams use?
Dec
To address your pedantry I said in post 21 the following:
If it makes it easier for you then change ‘identity’ with ‘nationality’ in my post.
You neatly avoid the points I make by trying to suggest that I am somehow putting Nationalists who reside in NI into some sort of box – it doesn’t bother me which country, RoI or NI, their allegiances lie with. Whichever way you wish to go about it Irish Unionists in Northern Ireland are being marginalised from supporting the Irish rugby team by an overtly Nationalist/Republic of Ireland sentimental IRFU board.
DO
Again I have to ask where is the motion to change the policy? The Ulster Branch are entitled to make any proposal they like and have not done so. This is IRFU business and as greenflag points out business is the operative word.
Rugby has never been more popular.
Hi Michael,
“The first tours were actually under the title of the “English football team†they were then called the “British Isles Rugby Union team†then the Lions nickname was officially recognised with the name “British and Irish Lionsâ€.”
But that wasn’t a team represented by the 4 home teams. It was the English football team as it was called. After about 10 years with the other home nations joining in it was changed to the British Isles Rugby Union team. During the 50s Lions was adopted during a tour of NZ because of the emblem used. Whether that was unofficial as you claim is another thing. I don’t think you’re correct here either as the company that ran the Lions was called the “British Lions”, which incidentally was located in Dublin. Even if it wasn’t the official name the new official name now includes “Irish” in the title whereas before there was only British. Which was the original poster’s point.
Finally, in previous arguments I can remember you posting that rugby players are professional and wouldn’t be affected by the playing of anthems. I noticed several republic players crying during the RoI’s anthem at the weekend. Had they a bad curry the night before or was there something else at work? Maybe they aren’t professional? I also noticed the Ulster players as grim faced and demotivated as usual.
Greenflag
Would it be okay to wave my Union flag and Northern Ireland flag and maybe even a Cross of Saoint Patrick at my home ground of Ravenhill. I don’t want to offend any nationlist/republicans who might be attending the Italy game, but I’m sure you know that Ravenhill is in a Unionist area and these are the flags that the natives of that area give their allegiance to.
If I say pretty please would you be a nice person and let me, and my fellow voting Unionists, have one game were Republican flags and anthems are not displayed.
‘Northern Unionists will be be happy ‘
Indeed . When albatross shite grows as fruit on an apple tree
‘when the I.R.F.U. drop the militaristic S.S.’
So Northern Unionists will be deleriously happy when the French drop the even more militaristic ‘Marseillaise ‘ and when the Americans drop all references to rockets red blaze etc in the Star Spangled Banner because it cast aspersions on the wretched Hanoverian King of England ? I’ll be delighted to hear what the French and Americans think of your suggestion!
‘It might be the anthem of Republicans ‘
Why the might ? Fairly obvious I would have thought.In fact beyond a shadow of doubt I would hasten to add . But it represents more than just Irish Republicans . People who vote Fine Gael/Labour /PD’s /Greens etc and even non voters in the Republic and Irish people all over the world see it as their Anthem . I’m sorry if this is upsetting to you but there you have it .
‘but it is not the anthem of Unionists. ‘
Brilliant -who would ever have thought that ? Imagine . I did’nt know that until now -thank you for this startling piece of news! Is your name Dougal by any chance ?
‘Just because a couple of thousand middle class prods tolerate it to watch a game of rugby the vast majority of Unionists ( the people who actually vote in elections)will NEVER accept it as their anthem or the tricolour as their flag.’
Did I say they did /should / or would accept either anthem or flag as their own ? Northern Ireland needs more Unionists like yourself . You are the rock on which a fair and hopefully peaceful Repartition of Northern Ireland will be built . Keep adding that orange cement into your ears from both sides . You’ll eventually win the hardest headed Unionist award and no doubt qualify as the Orange entrant in the Darwinian Awards for 2008!
PS -it was a game
No dozer ,
Perhaps you need some sleep . I don’t care what flags you personally want to wave at either Ravenhill or Lansdowne/Croke Park just don’t confuse the Italians . The latter will want to believe they are playing Ireland and not Gibraltar or some last remaining colonial outpost that is forever England .
Just make sure they’re washed !
As long as the Irish team don’t have to stand for GSTQ as their national anthem you can wave your mother’s union jack knickers if it so pleases you
Greenflag
What has the French and American anthems got to do with the so called all Ireland rugby team?
It’s seems to me that you are saying Uionists are to be tolerated as long as they keep quiet and keep their opinions to themselves. Would you ever wind your neck in! No wonder the Unionist people disappeared from the Republic.
You’re right about one thing it is only a game. Unfortunately it has now been become politicised by anti-Unionists in the I.R.F.U.
Do
Whichever way you wish to go about it Irish Unionists in Northern Ireland are being marginalised from supporting the Irish rugby team by an overtly Nationalist/Republic of Ireland sentimental IRFU board.
Take it up with the IRFU then and stop compalining on this site. I’ve no problem with the removal of political anthems. I’ve only a problem when you start placing a Unionist veto on the Irish nationality (that would be the pedantry you ascribe to me).
CG
also noticed the Ulster players as grim faced and demotivated as usual.
Amazing how you can read player’s minds from your sofa. Ever thought of joining a travelling circus? I actually feel sorry for you in that the main thing on your mind on Saturday was finding something to get upset about.
And finally, No dozer.
Would it be okay to wave my Union flag and Northern Ireland flag and maybe even a Cross of Saoint Patrick at my home ground of Ravenhill.
I thought you said you supported England?
Greenflag
There is a good possibility that G.S.T.Q. will be heard at Ravenhill so if you’re easily offended then stay away. That’s what I would do.
I have to say I resent you trying to personalise the debate by referring to my mother. She has spent the last 3 years suffering from dementia and doesn’t recognise a single person. I’m sure this means nothing to you, and to be honest what we have been debating for the past while is starting to bore me. So enjoy your Republican Utopia and may the best team win.
Hi Dec,
“Amazing how you can read player’s minds from your sofa. Ever thought of joining a travelling circus? I actually feel sorry for you in that the main thing on your mind on Saturday was finding something to get upset about.”
Grim faces were obvious. Maybe you think that for me to jump to the demotivation point was a leap too far. However, the reason man evolved to show facial expression was to transfer messages without words. I don’t think it was a leap too far…
BTW, I didn’t need to watch on Saturday to know this. I’ve posted it many times. No sectarian anthems before the match – why is that a leap too far for nationalists?
There is a good possibility that G.S.T.Q. will be heard at Ravenhill so if you’re easily offended then stay away.
In Dublin they took the politics out of it and in Belfast they put it right back in again.
Dec
If you give a Ireland team to support I will support it( I have said it before).
The reason I support England is because I as a Unionist do not feel comfortable wihth the republican anthems in Dublin.
I’m going to Ravenhill(my home ground because the S.S. will not be played).
Am I a bad person because I am not a republican and dislike your anthems and emblems? And do I care any more? The answer to both questions is no.
“There is a good possibility that G.S.T.Q. will be heard at Ravenhill so if you’re easily offended then stay away. ”
What makes you think this.
I can’t see the Irish sorry Rep. of Ireland players, letting this happen. They’re more than happy to stand for the compromise anthem ‘Ireland’s Call’ but if the UK anthem was to be played to represent the Irish team, more than a few of them would object, possibly even refuse to play.
Most people are happy with the setup as it is at the moment. Personally I would like to hear AnaB at away games but that is the accomodation we are making for the minority of the team and supporters.
Fantastic Result on Saturday. Absolutely delighted to have been there, up on Hill 16. Unforgetable experience which rivalled any All-Ireland hurling final I attended previous.
Ireland proved themselves to be one of the top 3 current teams in the world. Looking forward to Scotland and the Italians and more outstanding performances from the team.
“No sectarian anthems before the match – why is that a leap too far for nationalists? ”
CG
Fair enough, good job that Amhran na bhFiann is a recognised national anthem!!!
Also think its time Irish unionists realise there are more political outlooks in the South then just nationalism!!!! Maybe they could try it some day.
Dec
[i]Take it up with the IRFU then and stop complaining on this site.[/i]
I only started commenting on the anthems issue after being pissed off after reading the usual Republican drivel regarding this subject, which has an incredibly simple compromise. I actually commented at the beginning of the thread about how much I actually enjoyed the match – not a word of complaint in sight in that post. I guess what it boils down to is that you don’t want me to comment on this site because I have a difference of political opinion from you.
[i]I’ve no problem with the removal of political anthems.[/i]
Good then, no need to use the Soldier’s Song then.
[i] I’ve only a problem when you start placing a Unionist veto on the Irish nationality (that would be the pedantry you ascribe to me).[/i]
Tip: only use clichéd buzz words when you understand what they mean. How my basic right to call myself Irish, irrespective of my political and constitutional beliefs, because I was born, raised and grew up on the island of Ireland is a ‘veto’ of any kind is beyond me. The ‘veto’ here is being exercised by the Irish Republic, which sees itself as the sole agent of all things Irish and consistently suppresses the role of Northern Ireland in all-Ireland affairs.
After all our disagreement it amazes me that we actually do agree that it wouldn’t put anyone’s nose out of joint if Ireland’s Call was used as the only anthem at Irish rugby internationals.
Congal Claen re: the Lions,
Even though early tours were called the “English Football team”, there were still representatives from various combinations of English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish players on them.
Official team photographs from the 1977 team for example, clearly say “British Isles Rugby Union team”.
Yes, there was a limited company registered in 2000 in Dublin called British Lions Limited but a business set up to manage commercial affairs is not the same as the official name of the team.
I believe that the Irish rugby has come to a crossroads.
The display on Saturday has highlighted two things to me. Firstly, the fast majority of fans and players view the team as an Irish Gaelic one and therefore express themselves accordingly, using the flags, emblems and anthems of that nation (the ROI state). As a realist, I find nothing particularly wrong with this and find it hard to begrudge the fans or the team (who played a blinder) their moment of triumph. It would be naive to believe that a team playing in Dublin, playing in green, made up of Southerners and called Ireland would ever be considered anything other than representative of the Irish Gaelic nation. It is time that the garden centre prod and some Unionists get with the times and understand that the terms Ireland and Irish are a lot less inclusive than they used to be.
Secondly, the Ulster fans and players (the prods) look nothing less than partypoopers, a third wheel on a glorious green nationalist bicycle. I don’t believe Croker to be a cold-house to prods but I do believe that a unionist sitting in a sea of green, white and orange while the Soldiers Song gets belted out around them looks ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Where is your self-respect?
And therefore the crossroads:-
1. Continue as we are with the all-island team nothing more than a ROI team with the prods along for the ride. All emblems, flags and anthems of the Irish Gaelic kind. The number of prods playing on the field and watching from the stand dwindling away as the years progress. Maybe with a new Away flag commissioned to placate the prods once the numbers fall below a certain level – perhaps the shamrock being replaced by a gooseberry.
2. The IRFU and fanbase begin to recognize that the team is actually supposed to be an inclusive all-island team and start to behave accordingly. With a neutral flag/anthem and Mary told to stay at home.
3. The Ulster prods split away and form their own national team. Or even form a merger with Scotland to form a greater ‘Scotch’ team. Sure, the average Ulster prod has more ties and history with the Scots than they do with the Munster or Leinster crowd anyway.
Time to decide.
(p.s. much praise to the ROI fans for the respect shown to the GSTQ. As a Unionist with a lot paranoid suspicions of Southerners I was quite touched. So thank you.)
of a fan of three anthems being played for two teams -I wonder if we are the only country in the world to have this kind of nonsense
Well the South Africans have 2 songs (Nkosi sikelel’ iAfrika and Die Stem) but joined into 1 continuous anthem with the first bit in Zulu, then a verse in Afrikaans then a verse in English…
No dozer ,
‘so if you’re easily offended then stay away’
I’m not easily offended . Neck like the proverbial jockey’s etceteras
My sympathie’s re your mother’s condition . I was not to know . I apologise . My comment was in poor taste anyway . Like you I was getting bored with this codology over anthems etc
‘ So enjoy your Republican Utopia ‘
No idea what you are on about here. There is no Irish Utopia but there is an Irish Republic .
‘and may the best team win.’
Agreed and I hope it’s not the Azzurris !
Two nations ,
It would be naive to believe that a team playing in Dublin, playing in green, made up of Southerners and called Ireland would ever be considered anything other than representative of the Irish Gaelic nation..’
Small correction.
‘It would be naive to believe that a team playing in Dublin, playing in green, made up of Easterners , Southerners and a couple of Northerners (no Westerners this time ) and called Ireland would ever be considered anything other than representative of the Irish nation.’
As you say it would indeed be naive . I trust Diluted Orange will see your point.
The Irish nation is BTW made up of many strands -Gaelic being just one of them . There are probably more Shakespeares in the Dublin telephone directory than in Manchesters! So along with some Viking and Norman there is also English/Scottish and other elements in the population . Nowadays more exotic varieties of humanity are being introduced. Some day no doubt we’ll have a centre with the very Irish name of Pzilovsky or even Hwang . Are we to have chinese and Polish anthems also to make them feel ‘included’
As to ‘Ulster prods ‘ joining Scotland ? why not join England? or Wales ? Just as many would have the latter’s antecedents as Scottish ones . And then those Ulster Prods with Irish antecedents where to for them ? Worse still if Northern Irelands nationalists take to rugby and form half or more of the team or even just two or three players then do they get to hear Amhrain na Bhfiann played alongside GSTQ ?
Crossroads indeed. Que sera sera .
Two Nations:
Any support from the Jocks for your ‘greater scotch nation’ plan?
Outside of the plumbing fraternity that is?
it doesn’t bother me which country, RoI or NI,
NI should not be mentioned there as it is not a country.
Cross of Saoint Patrick
Have a point of Heino