Heartbreak at Croke
Irish hopes of a Grand Slam and a winning debut at Croke Park were shattered with a last minute French try giving the visitors a 17-20 victory
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Voices from the Grave
Coming up to the Halloween holiday, some people might be frightened of the idea of Voices from the Grave – but for others, the chance to hear an oral history of the Troubles from the mouths of two (in)famous protagonists, PUP leader and former UVF member David Ervine, and Brendan “The Dark” Hughes, is not [...] read our review »
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The Written World
Here’s something to keep you occupied over the weekend. [Will there be a quiz? - Ed] Possibly… The BBC magazine has an short and interesting, but un-embeddable, audio slide-show of Melvyn Bragg’s Radio 4 five-parter, In Our Time: The Written World. The British Library has more online information about the texts and technology featured in each [...] read our review » -
Debating the Churches’ Role in the Peace in Northern Ireland
This morning’s Sunday Sequence featured a substantial debate (about 35 minutes into the recorded programme) on a new book,Religion, Civil Society and Peace in Northern Ireland (Oxford University Press 2011), written by sociologists John Brewer, Gareth Higgins and Francis Teeney. The debate was framed in an opening vignette by presenter William Crawley in uncompromising terms, [...] read our review »
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‘Play the ROI anthem and an anthem representing the North.’
Scary:
GSTQ does represent ‘the north’.
You may not like that but that is the official anthem of NI.
Now you may not like it, and NI nationalists may not like it, but it’s not about either of those groups.
There is an anthem. Get over it.
That’s why I say don’t play either national anthem. You folks aren’t prepared to accept ours, so the only solution is to play neither.
Harpo,
I don’t have the umlimited free time you seem to have, so I’ll have to be brief.
Two words: “power sharing.”
’1. Two representative anthems’
Scary:
There are 2 representative anthems – ASS and GSTQ.
You just don’t like GSTQ. But that’s your problem, not mine.
‘But if you wanna keep moanin go ahead – GSTQ is never gonna be played.’
Why?
Is it all about pleasing people like you?
If GSTQ is ‘never’ going to be played then ASS should never be played.
All that British identity people are asking for is that their British identy be respected in the way that the Irish identity is respected.
I have no problem with ASS representing the Irish identity. That’s because I am open minded and tolerant. Unlike people like you who refuse to let GSTQ represent the British identity.
I’m not asking for any changes to ASS, you are asking for changes to the anthem that doesn’t even represent your identity.
Who is it that has the problem here?
I’m open to both national anthems being used (as and when appropriate), you are not open to them being used.
All we are asking for is GSTQ being played in Belfast in the same way that ASS is played in Dublin.
Is that too much to ask? A national anthem being played in its own state?
How often is it even ever going to happen? Once a decade?
Get over yourselves.
All this alienation of British identity rugby fans over one 3 minute tune.
Are you happy with yourselves?
‘Now all u gotta do is send as many letters to the IRFU as youve posted on this site and you just might get a reply.’
Scary:
It would probably make more impact if a fair-minded Irish identity fan like yourself sent a letter in too.
You’re all on for fairness too, aren’t you?
Or are you happy with the status quo?
‘Two words: “power sharing.†‘
Yoda:
What about them?
Words without context have no meaning. I have two words too – ‘crafty fish’.
Do you mean that as in real life, power sharing is fine for NI folks, but majority rule is the way to go when ROI folks get involved?
This was a rugby thread, and I thought that the IRFU was all about power sharing. So that neither identity would dominate when it came to rugby.
Maybe you should tell the IRFU to get into this power sharing mode, and drop the ROI domination model they are currently working under.
This was a rugby thread
That’s gold, Jerry! Gold!
‘I don’t have the umlimited free time you seem to have, so I’ll have to be brief.’
Yoda:
Do I detect jealousy here Yoda?
A number of people have said similar things to me about the amount of time I spend on this blog site.
Is it any of anyone’s business how I spend my time? Whether I choose to use my time to earn money, post on blogs, play sports or whatever else?
The way some say things, they seem to be jealous of my current amount of free time. Some even imply that it is a bad thing to spend so much time on a blog site.
What is it to anyone how I spend my time, free or not? It’s my time not theirs. It’s a free world and it’s up to me how I spend my time.
I think you are all jealous and small-minded. If you have so little free time, why do you spend some of it making snide remarks to those who choose to have plenty of free time?
Harpo
GSTQ will never be played as an anthem for a team representing Ireland.
Ireland’s call (while an awful song) is a compromise. That’s a lot more that Unionists are prepared to do in their so-called attempts to make the NI football team representaive of the whole community.
They are not going to play GSTQ so live with it.
If you’re that bothered, don’t go to the game.
As it’ll be a sell out, I don’t think the IRFU will lose too much sleep over you not attending.
“All this alienation of British identity rugby fans over one 3 minute tune.”
Jesus Harpo pull your head in will you? The “British identity” folk of NI had no problems alienating the shit out of their “Irish identity” neighbours for years, so why squeal like a little bitch about majority oppression now?
Guess who is unemployed?
MAGS
Sorry to break your 1970’s fest.
The above comment makes no sense to me.
Its [sic] the anthem of unionism and England.
It’s the anthem of the United Kingdom, of which NI is a part.
TRISTRAM
Yes, GSTQ is the “default†anthem of NI in the absence of the Northern Irish having their own one, and it is of course the Unionist anthem, thus representing 54% of the NI population (going by voting patterns). Superb, another tribal sacred cow.
The anthem represents all of Northern Ireland.
But in response to your point about NI not having its own distinct anthem, why doesn’t the IRFU adopt one?
Greágóir O’ FrainclÃn
As has been already said umpteen times already why bemoan that ‘God Save the Queen’ is not played to satisfy Unionists. Hence, we have ‘Irelands [sic] Call’ to suit all.
But the point is that Ireland’s Call is accompanied by the Southern anthem at matches in the South, but neither GSTQ nor any Northern Ireland anthem accompanies Ireland’s Call at matches in the North. I also believe that the Southern flag flies at matches in Dublin, but the NI flag will not fly at matches in Belfast. Is the point difficult for you to grasp?
No Dozer
Irelands call on its own would be just fine. How do we sort out the flag issue?
By choosing one that represents the whole island, e.g. the St Patrick’s Cross.
BILLY
Ireland’s call (while an awful song) is a compromise.
But it’s not Ireland’s Call: it’s Ireland’s Call + the Southern anthem in Dublin; and Ireland’s Call + no Northern anthem in Belfast. It’s Southern flag flying in Dublin, and no Northern flag in Belfast. Clearly unfair and insulting.
Shame on the IRFU for insulting NI and rugby supporters from NI. Shame on the IRFU for its totally unnecessary, overtly political policy.
”But it’s not Ireland’s Call: it’s Ireland’s Call + the Southern anthem in Dublin; and Ireland’s Call + no Northern anthem in Belfast. It’s Southern flag flying in Dublin, and no Northern flag in Belfast. Clearly unfair and insulting.”
If my understanding of established procedure is correct there is no inconsistency here.In the other non-English rugby jurisdictions within the UK GTSQ is not played for internationals – ‘Flower of Scotland’ being used in Scotland and ‘Land of our Fathers’ in Wales.If GTSQ were played there than that would be a different story.But if anyone wants ‘Danny Boy’ added to IC for Ravenhill matches then that’s alright by me.
Another interesting twist to the saga is that GTSQ in Ravenhill would lead to a flip flop of the situation that is causing angst among some commentators here- Ulster rugby being organised along 9 county lines it would be an anthem applicable to most but not ‘all’ of its catchment area.
IC was commissioned by the IRFU in the 90′s to palliate the thorny anthems problem.You may or may not like the compromise that was arrived at but nobody can accuse them of not making an effort to address the issue.
“no Northern flag in Belfast”
The provincial flag of ulster should be flown at ravenhill, nothing else.
Ulster rugby represents nine counties in Ireland so if this game is being played in The home pitch of the province, then it seems the only solution.
The old government of norhtern ireland flag has no official or rightful place in Ulster rugby.
‘GSTQ will never be played as an anthem for a team representing Ireland.’
Billy:
It was played at some home rugby games for Ireland in the past, so you’re ‘will never be’ is up for debate.
What if then IRFU went back to the system that they used to have, and it was played at a home game in Ravenhill?
Is you’re ‘will never be played’ a guarantee that it will never happen, or simply your wish that it doesn’t ever happen again?
The real issue with respect to GSTQ is: was it played at Ireland rugby games in Belfast as the anthem of the Ireland team, or was it played to recognize where the game was being played?
There is a big difference.
I understood the situation to be that it wasn’t played as the anthem of the team – nor was ASS at games in the ROI – but instead GSTQ and ASS were simply played to recognize where the game was taking place – in either the UK or the ROI.
‘The “British identity†folk of NI had no problems alienating the shit out of their “Irish identity†neighbours for years’
Bearhunter:
Northern Ireland never pretended to be neutral. It declared itself to be British, on a majority rule basis. Of course this would alienate nationalists.
The IRFU on the other hand is supposed to be neutral. Neutral bodies are not supposed to alienate anyone.
If this is simply nationalists getting back at unionists, that’s fine. At least declare this honestly, and don’t try to wrap it up with theoretical justifications.
‘so why squeal like a little bitch about majority oppression now?’
So it is majority oppression then. Thanks for that confirmation.
Some nationalist posters have pussy-footed around this point so far, but you come right out and say it – it’s majority oppression within the IRFU.
Fair enough, at least we know now.
‘Shame on the IRFU for insulting NI and rugby supporters from NI. Shame on the IRFU for its totally unnecessary, overtly political policy.’
Willowfield:
Damn straight. Well said.
The IRFU claims to be neutral but isn’t.
The folks who complain about NI forget that NI never claimed to be neutral. It’s British and was from day 1.
‘If my understanding of established procedure is correct there is no inconsistency here.’
Observer:
But you’re not looking at the right thing.
NI is not one of the ‘other non-English rugby jurisdictions within the UK’. So comparing NI to them is meaningless. NI isn’t a rugby jurisdiction of any sort. The ROI isn’t a rugby jurisdiction either come to that.
NI is part of an all-island team. That team supposedly has nothing to do with the real world UK nor with the real world ROI. It’s a neutral team.
However, in the past the anthems of either the ROI or UK were used at home internationals for the Ireland team, depending in which state they were playing.
Then along came Ireland’s Call – a neutral anthem. I would have thought that would be enough of an anthem to represent the team. However since it was introduced it has been precedent for the anthem of the state hosting the home game to be played too – in fact it was always ASS since all home games were in the ROI since then.
Under this precedent it would be consistent for GSTQ to be played in Belfast.
There is inconsistency when the IRFU announces that GSTQ will not be played at Ravenhill. And that’s the only inconsistency here.
‘The provincial flag of ulster should be flown at ravenhill, nothing else.’
wesley:
So then the provincial flag of Leinster should be flown at Croke Park then for rugby games, nothing else.
‘Ulster rugby represents nine counties in Ireland so if this game is being played in The home pitch of the province, then it seems the only solution.’
Leinster rugby represents some counties in Ireland so if this game is being played in the temporary home pitch of the province, then it seems the only solution.
‘The old government of norhtern ireland flag has no official or rightful place in Ulster rugby.’
To be consistent the current flag of the ROI has no official or rightful place in Lenister rugby either.
You can spin this any way you want, but you can’t escape the fact that ROI symbols have nothing to do with the Ireland team,, if NI symbols don’t.
If you want provincial symbols only then it’s Leinster stuff in Dublin.
‘other non-English rugby jurisdictions within the UK’.
This was a loose descriptive term and therefore by definition holes can be picked in it.
Let’s go through this bit by bit.ANB and IC are played in Dublin the rationale being that ANB is the anthem of the jurisdiction in which the match takes place.
Let’s fast forward to Ravenhill in NI which is a constituent part of the UK.When you are there you must obviously do what the Romans do.Following *established precedent and present protocol* where in rugby internationals in other constituent parts apart from England (namely Wales and Scotland) a *local* anthem and not GTSQ is played then the local version of ‘Flower of Scotland’ and ‘Land of our Fathers’,as consistency demands, must be pressed into service.Danny Boy is the nearest relevant equivalent I can think of to this.
In this case the Irish team would be operating perfectly in tandem with what the powers that be in UK rugby have decided in term of their anthems policy.
As a matter of general comment I think this thread is beginning to descend to ‘angels dancing ona a pinhead’ dephths.I personally find anthems an irritating aside to the main business of the rugby.
A quick lesson for a few punters here.
The IRFU does not equal the ROI
Similiarily, the URFU does not equal Northern Ireland. The attitude of many Ulster fans and their willingness to conflate the two, whilst lashing southerners out for doing the same is hilarious.
With all the controversy around the game at Ravenhill( caused by the republicans in the IRFU and the wannabee republicans who run Ulster rugby)I genuinely hope and pray that any southern supporters leave their tri-colours at home.
There will no doubt be a protest at the game (hopefully peaceful)and this area of Belfast is not a republican area.
Lets hope common sense prevails and respect is given to Irish unionists on this part of the island, or the match is played on “home soil” ie south of the border.
It is concerning that a thread that should have been about the merits or otherwise of Isaac Boss’s pass and Ronan O’Gara’s touchfinding etc has effectively being lead up a blind alley.
Mr.Fealty,please take note.
There was nothing wrong with Boss’s pass – it was several steps up from the dross that O’Gara had been receiving from Stringer the week before (and for quite some time actually, Stringer’s passing, i.e. that particular one-trick pony’s trick, has been much stronger in reputation than actuality)
If Boss doesn’t start against England, it will be a dire selection error on EOS’s part.
Ireland’s touch-kicking was poor – not just ROG, Hickie, Murphy and Dempsey missed kicks to touch as well.
Ireland should really be looking to beat England fairly comfortably – France are a much better team, and they only just got away, despite a pretty average performance by Ireland
”There was nothing wrong with Boss’s pass”
I disagree, although fair play for at least getting back to the intended subject matter of the thread.I.Boss has a habit of taking 3 steps or so back from the scrum,putting the centres under pressure as opposed to Stringer who whips it out immediately.
I disagree, although fair play for at least getting back to the intended subject matter of the thread.I.Boss has a habit of taking 3 steps or so back from the scrum,putting the centres under pressure as opposed to Stringer who whips it out immediately.
As do most southern hemisphere scrum halves – take a look at Kelleher, Justin Marshall or George Gregan – it keeps the opposition back row honest if the scrum half is going to break or not.
With Stringer, they know he is going to pass 999 times out of 1000 (the exception being the HEC final last year!) so they immediately charge out towards the Irish three quarters anyway more than cancelling out any fraction of a second speed advantage in Stringer’s pass.
In the Wales – Ireland game 2 weeks ago Stringer’s pass was just plain inaccurate on a number of occasions – loopy passes behind the man or low passes down by the ankles or along the ground.
Boss didn’t do that against France.
Boss’s game is entirely different – you may be excused for thinking that Stringer’s game is the norm for scrum-halfs, since we in Ireland have unfortunately been subjected to it for so long, but in fact scrum-half has moved on everywhere except Ireland, yes their bread and butter is still distribution, but it’s rare these days to see a scrum-half as an old-fashioned, short, link man.
So while scrum-halfs the world over are asked to bring more to the table – whether that be primarily a kicking game (yachvili), ball-carrying around the fringes (kelleher, phillips), breaks (peel, cusiter), although all those mentioned here bring a combination of all of these things – we have peter bloody stringer, with his poor kicking game, nil breaks, inability to retain ball in contact, defence that is always courageous but not much more, but all of this supposedly compensated for by his “excellent pass” – well if you watch the matches carefully, his passing has been less than excellent for some time now, ROG had to pick up 3 passes around his ankles against Wales for example, IIRC.
Worse, because defences know that he offers no threat around the fringes, they simply put pressure on O’Gara, causing him to sit deep, and drift outside, closing down space for our outside backs..
Boss (and most international scrum-halfs) brings variation, and keeps defences honest – so sometimes he’ll pass directly (which he did very well on Sunday), sometimes he’ll take a couple of steps then make a break in the 10 channel, sometimes he’ll take a couple of steps and pass – which isn’t a bad thing unless he never makes a break, as he’ll be keeping defenders interested. He’s done this with a lot of success at Ulster, and is by some distance the most talented scrummie in the country.
Hopefully EOS will see past Stringer’s reputation of having an excellent pass, and his “experience” (a circular argument for selection if ever i heard one) and have him parked firmly on the bench from now on.
mikerob – posts crossed, great minds and all that!!
Amazing – a discussion about rugby breaks out on a slugger thread about…errr… rugby.
Lafcadio – thanks for your comprehensive explanation of scrum half play but I fear that Stringer will be selected if he is fit to play.
O’Sullivan’s track record is to prefer the incumbent and the tried and trusted unless there is no other option.
On Stringer’s pass, it is still way faster. As for Boss, he threatened a few times on Sunday but never made good on the threat. He had no more breaks than Stringer would have on an ordinary afternoon, and that’s a pity. Still he’s a talented footballer and good to have as a back up. Stringer is far more capable as an organiser and a communicator – I suspect this is more what was missed. But the speed with which the French backs were up on the attack was frightening. What got me was why we didn’t kick it in behind more, and turn these guys, then go through them? They were up so fast they were entirely committed to the rush/blitz/whatever you call it. But no, every time either the ball was taken into contact, or passed out wide in a hospital ball where the French defender was simply waiting to tackle the man about to receive possession. A recipe for pain, if you ask me. Better, faster passes, and smarter thinking will win the game on Saturday.
‘When you are there you must obviously do what the Romans do.’
Observer:
But there is not such thing as the UK from the rugby point of view. Thus there is nothing to be consistent about.
And I find it odd that even when you do take this approach of ‘do what the Romans do’, you chose to ignore England and instead concentrate only on Wales and Scotland. Why is that? Why is the example of England not good enough to follow? Surely the principle involved in the UK is decide what your own anthem is and play it. Thusd NI could do exactly the same as England and use GSTQ. There is no one thing to be consistent with, since there is a choice. So why do you exclude the England example as a possibility.
The issue is not consistency between separate rugby authorities, the issue is consistency within the IRFU. Even if it was about consistency between separate rugby authorities, there is no one way of doing things. Scotland and Wales choose unofficial regional anthems, England uses the official national anthem.
As you say, ‘ANB and IC are played in Dublin the rationale being that ANB is the anthem of the jurisdiction in which the match takes place.’
If the IRFU was to be consistent within the area that it is the authority for (the island of Ireland), that means that GSTQ and IC would be played in Belfast, the rationale being that GSTQ is the anthem of the jurisdiction in which the match takes place.
Is this too simple for you to understand?
‘I genuinely hope and pray that any southern supporters leave their tri-colours at home.’
No Dozer:
I agree.
But if there are ROI flags on the basis that part of the team is from the ROI, NI flags would be equally appropriate too, wouldn’t they?
“Amazing – a discussion about rugby breaks out on a slugger thread about…errr… rugby.”
I knew it wouldn’t last, He’s back.
I think that if we had a protestant ball it would fly through the air faster. Catholic balls are notoriously slow. Protestant balls are famously efficient.
If GSTQ is played at Ireland games, what happens when we play England? Seems a bit confusing.
I think the problem here is that GSTQ is a British anthem, not a Northern Irish one. Self-respecting Southerners can take no part in it, as it explicitly asks them to accept a foreign head of state. Any unionist who thinks this is reasonable has his/her head in the sand.
Likewise, I accept unionists’ opposition to The Soldier’s Song, so it should perhaps be dropped. However, it does not require unionists to bow allegiance to a foreign head of state, only to commemorate a nation’s right to self-determination, something that has been accepted that Northern Ireland has a right to do as well.
As for the ROI flag, I point to the fact that the orange is already there to represent the unionist population. Unionsits might not accept that but that’s their problem – when have they gone out of their way to incorporate any ‘Irish’ identity in their official iconography?
Any suggestions for an alternative anthem, anyone? Sport and music are part of a shared culture, even if the politics is divided. There must be something out there we can agree on.
Tiresome as the anthem debate is, I feel I should throw in my tuppence worth…I was raised as a Presbyterian in Belfast yet I loathe, detest and despise hearing ‘God Save the Queen’ played before Northern Ireland international fixtures…while our Welsh and Scottish counterparts can proudly sing a song that represents their part of the British Isles, we’re put in the position of acting like forelock-tugging colonials…for ****’s sake change it to ‘Danny Boy’!!! I know the die-hard Loyalists will insist that this is a betrayal of their supposed ‘Britishness’ but they’re being pig-headedly stoopid…if they really want to encourage a majority of people in the Six Counties to identify with the state of Northern Ireland, divisive anthems aren’t the way to achieve it…and for feck’s sake, if we can’t put aside petty sectarian ballix and all get behind the Ireland rugby team, we really are a lost cause…
Is this too simple for you to understand?
You are treading on thin ice.This borders on an ad hominem comment.Tread warily!
If the IRFU was to be consistent within the area that it is the authority for (the island of Ireland), that means that GSTQ and IC would be played in Belfast, the rationale being that GSTQ is the anthem of the jurisdiction in which the match takes place.
And a convention has been in operation among relevant rugby authorities within the jurisdiction in question for peripheral constituent entities (for want of a better term) to use local anthems rather than GSTQ.If suit were to be followed simple logic dictates an Irish team in Ravenhill standing for ‘Danny Boy’.
And I find it odd that even when you do take this approach of ‘do what the Romans do’, you chose to ignore England and instead concentrate only on Wales and Scotland. Why is that? Why is the example of England not good enough to follow? Surely the principle involved in the UK is decide what your own anthem is and play it. Thusd NI could do exactly the same as England and use GSTQ.
There is a touch of circularity here.The Ulster branch *are* operating free will and are implicitly accepting the status quo.This is partly what all the angst here has been about – one contributor labelled them as ‘wannabe republicans’.And you poured scorn on some posters who tried to raise the issue of an agreed NI anthem.So much for your new ‘vox populi’ reasoning.
If a local anthem ,as opposed to GSTQ,is good enough for the WRFU and SRFU whose catchment areas wholly reside within the UK then an NI regional anthem ,as opposed to GSTQ, must be good enough for the IRFU and the Ulster branch, one fifth and two thirds of whose respective catchment areas reside within the UK.
The *real* questions arising from the Croke Park match are not which flag or which anthem but whether Andrew Trimble should have started instead of Shane Horgan, Neil Best instead of Simon Easterby and suchlike.
I’m going to make an effort to ignore Harpo’s postings , however provocative, and I would strongly advise those of us who are making heroic efforts to ‘un-hijack’ the thread to do likewise.
Good points Mike Robinson and Lafcadio.With Stringer’s slight physique he is unlikely to develope much of a breaking game however Boss can still work on his still less-than-perfect pass.Anyway EO’S has okayed Boss to play in Ulster’s next ML game which seems to indicate that he has Stringer in mind for Ire v Eng.
The *real* questions arising from the Croke Park match are not which flag or which anthem but whether Andrew Trimble should have started instead of Shane Horgan, Neil Best instead of Simon Easterby and suchlike.
Exactly.I would have gone for the former in both instances.
Incidentally the following Sindo article throws an interesting slant on the French match.:
A BIT of perspective, please. Sunday was not the disaster it has been made out to be and, if we get out the wide-angle lens, it could turn out to be a very good result.
Bear with me. The Grand Slam would have been great, a tangible reward that would far outrank the (soon to be) three Triple Crowns won on the back of England’s decline. However, this year is all about the World Cup and Ireland’s World Cup hinges on the match against France in Paris on September 21.
Argentina are a fine team, and will not be dismissed lightly but, eight years after Lens, Ireland are too good to lose to the Pumas again.
So it all comes down to France. Lose and it’s the All Blacks in the quarters, we know how that goes. But beat the hosts, and it’s a last-eight clash with Scotland. Next.
Now we’re in ‘pinch me, am I dreaming?’ territory. The semi-final would be against Australia or, possibly, England, both eminently beatable and suddenly you’re talking about little ‘ol Ireland in a World Cup final against New Zealand.
But we have to beat France, and that’s where Sunday’s loss can help. The French expect to win, regardless of what stadium it is in.
It is that complacent attitude, fostered by four years of domination over Ireland and Sunday’s ‘Croker Choker’, that will lure them into the perfect Irish ambush in September.
We are a better side than France – if we have a full deck to choose from.
On Sunday, we nearly won with a team that was operating at around 70 per cent of what it is capable of.
Ireland’s backline balance was destroyed by Brian O’Driscoll’s withdrawal.
It was amusing in the pre-championship build-up to hear people describing Shane Horgan as “Ireland’s most improved player” as though he had sprung out of the Phoenix Park grass. Horgan has been excelling on the right wing for Ireland since 2000, as Jonah Lomu would testify after an afternoon of internment at Lansdowne Road in 2001.
However, he does not have the jinking abilities needed to negotiate the Red Cow roundabout that is an international midfield.
Peter Stringer’s absence was possibly even more damaging. Bar stool experts, gulping from their two-litre of rugby cliches, regularly criticise the Munster man for “not having a break” and claim Isaac Boss is a scrum-half who “keeps the opposition back row honest”.
Hopefully, Stringer’s detractors will be silenced by events in Croke Park. Boss is a physical player but nowhere near his Munster counterpart when it comes to a scrum-half’s primary duty – passing.
Stringer delves into the ruck and whips the ball away in one movement. Boss plucks out the ball, takes three steps back and then releases.
A crucial delay.
On Sunday, Irish fans were screaming at referee Steve Walsh to penalise the French backs for coming up too early. But the French were not offside, Boss’s moonwalk routine gave them more time to rush up and pressure the Irish midfield.
Yet, despite these hinderances, we were one kick-off reception away from winning. With Stringer and O’Driscoll back, the Irish second row coming out of their quiet period and Denis Leamy returning to full feral fitness, Ireland are a different proposition.
This World Cup is set up for us. Eddie O’Sullivan has by far the most experienced, battle-hardened squad (shades of England in 2003) and a World Cup final is on the cards – if he can tap into this Gallic complacency.
History shows you can afford to lose an early skirmish to the French and go on to win the battle.
At Waterloo, the British cavalry were severely cut up early on which looked like it would cost the allies victory. Yet, France’s greatest general ended up in exile after the allies regrouped to win the battle conclusively. And they were led by a Paddy.
Hugh Farrelly
southern observer – you may be right about boss’s selection – that said, he was injured and hasn’t played much rugby in the last few months so perhaps he just wanted him to get a bit more gametime..
and if evidence was needed of the value of him taking a few steps then going in the 10 channel, he has just delivered with a great try against the dragons this evening (sky channel 992 then red button..)
the thing about scrum-halfs making breaks, even if they never get free, they still keep the defence tight – so even though boss didn’t make any clean breaks against france (who let’s not forget are probably the second best team in the world) he still added value because he offered the threat of one – something which stringer never sill..
‘And a convention has been in operation among relevant rugby authorities within the jurisdiction in question’
Observer:
The jurisdiction in question is not the real world jurisdiction of the UK. It is the rugby world jurisdiction of Ireland (the island).
There is no rugby jurisdiction called the UK, and none called NI. For that matter there is no ROI in rugby world.
We have to deal with rubgy world jurisdictions here, not real world ones. What rugby world Scotland or rugby world Wales does not set a precenent for rugby world Ireland in my opinion. Even if it did, the precedent would be to have a regional anthem for the rugby jurisdiction involved, and the IRFU did this by coming up with Ireland’s Call.
The Scotland and Wales models (if they are to be followed) would mean that Ireland would use irelan’ds Call and only Ireland’s call. One regional anthem for the jurisdiction.
Thus there would be no need to use any real world state anthems.
In that case why doesn’t the IRFU use ONLY Ireland’s call?
On the other hand if the national anthem of the state that the rugby jurisdiction is in is to be used (as England chooses to do) as the model, then that would mean that both ASS and GSTQ would ned to be used in the case of Ireland. Sine they are the national anthems of the states that rugby jurisdiction Ireland impacts.
So there you go – 2 models:
1. Ireland’s Call only (my preferred choice) as a regional anthem.
2. The national anthems of both states (GSTQ and ASS).
‘This borders on an ad hominem comment.’
How does it?
‘If a local anthem ,as opposed to GSTQ,is good enough for the WRFU and SRFU whose catchment areas wholly reside within the UK then an NI regional anthem ,as opposed to GSTQ, must be good enough for the IRFU and the Ulster branch’
Again you are back to the examples of Scotland and Wales. How about England? If the IRFU decided to go back to the way things used to be, would you agree with their right to make the choice of having GSTQ represent NI? Just as England has decided to use GSTQ for themselves?
There is a choice here. You say it is between GSTQ and some new agreed anthem.
How is it then that neither the IRFU not the Ulster branch is proposing that any anthem be played to represent NI, in the way that ASS is used to represent the ROI at Dublin games?
The current situation is that at Dublin games it is both Ireland’s Call plus the ROI anthem. At Belfast games it is to be Ireland’s Call only. Where is there any representation of NI?
he has just delivered with a great try against the dragons this evening (sky channel 992 then red button..)
Must try and get that.Is it being shown on Setanta?
after the munster match – so about now!!!
but switch off after 20 mins!!! because ulster went to sleep from then on!!!
MIchael and Lafcadio
Sorry to disagree, but if Stringer is fit, he’ll start against England. I know yiz want your local lad to get the chance, but he’s going to have to step up several gears to dislodge the Munsterman.
Boss had a good game against the French. But his instinct is to break, even when a break isn’t on. It happened on Sunday. He broke, got isolated and turned over. Stringer only breaks when something’s on. Otherwise he passes or box-kicks.
Stringer is also the scrum-half that works day-in day-out with six-eighths of the Irish pack. When a free kick is given at the scrum, Stringer has the ball back to Leamy, who makes 10 metres before the the ref’s whistle has finished sounding. He’s the general who’s barking out the orders at the back of the maul. He’s the nippy little bugger who’s hand-trip has saved our arses on more than one occasion.
Still, it’s good to see that there is now serious competition for the no 9 jersey. Just because Boss has a good game doesn’t mean that Stringer will give his place up easily.
It was good to see Ireland’s best kept secret – Croke Park – get the international attention it deserves. What a magnificent stadium – a wonderful place to stage a 6-nations match and a great advertisement for Irish sport.
Hopefully, now that the GAA have realised that the sky won’t fall in by allowing garrison games on the hallowed turf, maybe they’ll be even more adventurous and bid to host a European (association) football final. I’m sure the UEFA big-wigs wouldn’t be averse to a week in Dublin. 2010 is the next available final.
The only practical solution is a fair repartition of our anthems.
God Save Our Soldiers Of Destiny will be played at Ravenhill, to the tune and rhythm of GSTQ. We Are The Noble (rock) Queen will be played at Lansdowne, to the tune and rhythm of We Will Rock You by Queen.
An IRFU spokesman said that the choice of a Queen tune was particularly apposite, not only because of the line You’ve got mud on your face / Ya big disgrace but also because there was a natural segue way into We Are The Champions, should Ireland win the World Cup. “Besides,” he said, “Ireland’s Call is shite.”
To avoid the risk that subversive melodies might insinuate themselves into the two official anthems, an international Anthem Monitoring Commission has been established, complete with a US Envoy – probably the warm-up music for the NFL. The Wolfe Tones, the military wing of the Chieftains, have agreed to voluntarily decommission their entire repertoire. No photographic evidence will be forthcoming.
nothing to do with him being a local boy (he’s from new zealand after all..) it’s just that he’s a better scrum-half – over time stringer has built a great reputation as a superb-passing scrum-half – but I don’t see how anyone has been able to watch him closely over the last 2 years, and has missed his distribution getting ropier and ropier. it’s down to two things, he’s playing against better, quicker and more physical scrum-halfs, as that area of the game has moved on (e.g. Peel had him in his pocket three weeks ago), and secondly he’s trying belatedly to do different things, like make little half-breaks, or take the ball and run – and these have mostly resulted in errors and turnovers.
On top of that, there’s been a lot of bo11ox spoken by certain pundits in the last week about how ireland lost against france because BOD wasn’t playing, and Stringer too, because of his “decision-making” – Stringer’s decision-making is by no means a strength, anyone remember his decision to dink the ball over the top on his own goal-line when we were leading the all blacks with 10 minutes to go in june, a decision that lost us the match??
and re the speed of his delivery, while his actual pass is fast, he more often than not arrives at the breakdown, and looks at his backs, then looks at the ball, then waves his arms and looks at the ref, then looks at the ball, then looks at the backs, and then puts in one of his “trademark lightning passes” – in the meantime any advantage we would have received from quick ball has been lost – see the recent game against South Africa for a recent example.
On top of that, there’s been a lot of bo11ox spoken by certain pundits in the last week about how ireland lost against france because BOD wasn’t playing, and Stringer too, because of his “decision-makingâ€
I would agree 100% – to think that Stringer’s absence had the same impact as BOD is ridiculous.
As a meaure of Stringer’s capabilities, what other 6 nations sides would he get a game for? Only Italy, in my opinion.
He certainly wouldn’t be able to displace Yachvili in France and he isn’t as good a player as Cussiter or if Blair was fit in Scotland. In Wales, Stringer would be a long way behind Peel and would probably be behind Phillips as well, as Phillips brings a different type of game to the table. Harry Ellis of England hasn’t always impressed but is probably the form scrum half of the tournament to date comfortably won the battle against Stringer when they played each other in the Heineken Cup last month.
So looking at it this way, Stringer is probably around the 7th or 8th ranked scrum half in the tournament.
SOUTHERN OBSERVER
But if anyone wants ‘Danny Boy’ added to IC for Ravenhill matches then that’s alright by me.
Why has the IRFU not introduced it?
Another interesting twist to the saga is that GTSQ in Ravenhill would lead to a flip flop of the situation that is causing angst among some commentators here- Ulster rugby being organised along 9 county lines it would be an anthem applicable to most but not ‘all’ of its catchment area.
The anthem would have nothing to do with Ulster rugby, nor how it was organised, anymore than the Southern anthem has anything to do with Leinster, Munster or Connaught rugby.
IC was commissioned by the IRFU in the 90’s to palliate the thorny anthems problem.You may or may not like the compromise that was arrived at but nobody can accuse them of not making an effort to address the issue.
The issue can be addressed by dropping the Southern anthem and playing only Ireland’s Call. Either that, or playing a Northern anthem for matches in Belfast in the same way as the Southern anthem is played at matches in Dublin. Quite simple. Why won’t they do it?
WESLEY
The old government of norhtern ireland flag has no official or rightful place in Ulster rugby.
The Southern tricolour has no official or rightful place in Irish rugby.
DAN VAN ZYL
A quick lesson for a few punters here. The IRFU does not equal the ROI Similiarily, the URFU does not equal Northern Ireland. The attitude of many Ulster fans and their willingness to conflate the two, whilst lashing southerners out for doing the same is hilarious.
No-one is conflating the two.