The man from Sinn Fein…
…he say ‘yes.’ Looks like it was by more than three-quarters in favour of the motion.
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When it says That the ard chomhairle is mandated to implement this motion only when the power-sharing institutions are established and when the ard chomhairle is satisfied that the policing and justice powers will be transferred.
Does that mean they will not actively support the rule of law just now ?
“The ard chomhairle recommends: That this Ard Fheis endorses the ard chomhairle motion.
That the ard chomhairle is mandated to implement this motion only when the power-sharing institutions are established and when the ard chomhairle is satisfied that the policing and justice powers will be transferred.
Or if this does not happen within the St Andrews timeframe, only when acceptable new partnership arrangements to implement the Good Friday Agreement are in place.”
Well, there you have it. Over to the DUP!
RTE are saying passed with amendments. We’ll have to see if any of them are significant.
This was about Sinn Fein, as a Political party, supporting the police.
Now Sinn Fein as a political party have passed the motion forward we go.
Whatever actions each member of the public takes as regards supporting the police is a matter for each individual not not the responsibility of the political party they support.
Sinn Fein have now led their party to the law and order water, it is up to each individual to decide whether to drink?
Last hoop completed.
In his justification of his support for the motion today Chris Gaskin noted – quite rightly – the requirement for a decent policing service to round up the hoods and other lowlifes causing problems in the community.
However, as Teach pointed out above, the support is conditional on the setting up of powersharing again. That seems to mean that, as far as SF are concerned, for now it is business as usual – the PSNI will remain unwelcome until the political stuff is sorted out.
I hope that, for the sake of the communities they represent as much as anything else, SF will demonstrate some flexibility and move to take their seats on the Police Board, and begin attending/working with the DPPs, in advance of the devolution of policing and justice powers. Chris or Pat, can you comment on this ?
Art Hostage
No, it’s not the last hoop, but it is probably the crucial step towards acceptance of the PSNI.
The ball is still in SFs court. THEY ARE NOT YET SUPPORTING THE PSNI OR THE COURTS.
Until they do, there will be NO DEVOLUTION
- at least the motion rules out republicans joining a the psni – “to ensure that there is no place in the PSNI for those guilty of human rights abuses.” – any member of Sinn Fein then!
“Now Sinn Fein as a political party have passed the motion forward we go.”
It’s not as easy as that, Art H. I don’t think there is a single person who posts here that, thinks the DUP will not come back with their “testing” period road block. The DUP will probably say that “there was some progrss today, but Sinn Fein’s motion is filled with “conditional ambiguities” on their policing support.
Despite the conditionality of its wording, I believe significant practical expression will be given to the motion very quickly.
For instance, Tuesday’s expected formal calling of the election could be seen as governmental agreement to go either with Plan A or Plan B, either of which allows Sinn Fein to proceed.
Certain moves such as joining the Policing Board cannot happen until after the election anyway as a matter of procedure, but Martin McGuinness already hinted on today’s ‘Politics Show’ that people would be encouraged to co-operate with the PSNI in the event of a serious crime such as rape.
Gerry Adams in today’s ‘Sunday World’ has said that republicans who wish to join the police should be supported.
Therefore, we are already seeing some practical expression being given to the motion. It’s time for the DUP – in however guarded language – to give the nod to powersharing and to at least state that they won’t stand in the way of the devolution of policing powers as long as everything pans out as expected.
If needs be, it’s also time for Robbo and the Doc to face down the Allisters and McCreas. It’s a pity that the DUP haven’t gone to the same efforts as SF to prepare their base for the big move.
I’m interested in seeing what amendments were made to the original motion, but surely we on on the way, at last..
Anyone notice the main color of the backdrop at the Ard Fheis, if that is not a message to the big house I do not what is. Where NL first go SF will not hesitate to follow.
Is this a provisional endorsement?
Ken Reid of UTV says 90% voting yes.
TB
“Certain moves such as joining the Policing Board cannot happen until after the election anyway as a matter of procedure,”
Current Police Board members are only there on the Secretary of State’s appointment. I’m sure Hain wouldnt hold back SF if they really wanted to join tomorrow.
However, on the substance of what has happened – they have taken another step forward. Well done. Time for some actions now though. If they want Government up and running soon then they better deliver the actions soon. That’s not too difficult to understand now is it?
Old Breznev would have been proud of the shinners, he once said the days of 99.9% votes at the party congress are gone, but allowing anything less than 90% only encourages people to think for themselves.
I found |Gerry talking about the British govern,ent leavin Ireland quite funny
I might have spoken too soon. Pat Doherty’s comments on Sky News a few minutes ago could be interpreted such that there will be no implementation of the motion until powersharing is up and running.
There is a problem here: if the motion is interpreted in the above way, SF Ministers could not take the pledge of office, which necessarily comes before powersharing “goes live”. You can’t have powersharing without Ministers to share the power.
The Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act states that no Minister shall take office “until they have affirmed the terms of the pledge of office”. In turn, the pledge commits Ministers to “uphold the rule of law based as it is on the fundamental principles of fairness, impartiality and democratic accountability, including support for policing and the courts as set out in paragraph 6 of the St Andrews Agreement.”
This is why I believed that the conditionality was simply a failsafe to get as much value out of Sinn Fein’s last Ace, and that, in reality, the passing of the motion would lead to significant moves straight away. That is still my hope.
However, if all we have after today is a post-dated cheque (without a date, in fact) then we are in for another very boring period of chicken-and-egg stalemate.
Mick Hall,
I think their ultra-nationalist opponents will have to acknowledge that Adams and co have massive support among PSF and its supporters. In fact, I didn’t here one nothern voice opposde to the motion, just people in the free state who don’t have to live with the reality of life in NI.
Adams and co may be control freaks, but they’re leading people happy to led in the direction they’re going. In fact, on this issue, I think they’re following opinion, not leading or faking it.
I have been doing the things you have to do to maintain domestic bliss so missed all of today’s events – are there going to be exact voting figures or was it show of hands?
FD,
was a show of hands. But you’ll see on the Tv how overwhelming it was
So it looks like the elections are to go ahead. Will the DUP run on a commitment to enter government with Sinn Fein?
I’d be interested to know your take on this FD.
garibaldy:
just because the sheep are happily being walked into the abbatoir doesn’t mean it is the right place for sheep to be!
So it looks like the elections are to go ahead. Will the DUP run on a commitment to enter government with Sinn Fein?
Posted by Henry94 on Jan 28, 2007 @ 07:27 PM
I think the DUP will be hard pushed to accept this, especailly given what Pat Doherty has said.
Sinn Fein DO NOT support the PSNI and MAY only do so after devolution
Wiseup,
I don’t deny the lack of ideological sophistication of the majority of Provos and supporters. What I am saying is that the leadership is not somehow sneakily manufacturing majorities against the will of the membership, as some people have been close to suggesting on this site over the last few weeks.
As for policing, of coruse I think it should be supported.
“Is this a provisional endorsement?” asks David Vance.
Well it certainly is a contingent endorsement in that the ability to put that endorsement into practice is contingent upon Sinn Fein being able to so do. And that means that it is able to take its place as a party in a shared devolved government that has been given, by agreement of all parties, a guarantee of having the control of civic policing being devolved to it within an agreed timeframe.
All that can wreck that now happening is either the will of the voters or the failure of the DUP to keep its solemn undertaking given after long negotiation. The DUP will keep its word won’t it?
You surely wouldn’t urge it to do otherwise, David?
Interesting as today’s news is what’s more interesting is the reaction to it from you lot. Mostly seems to be guarded hope. Hope that tomorrow the DUP respond in some way that can be described as positive and hope that we get devolution up and running again.
Question though, is SF have to pledge before taking office what happens if they don’t pledge? Does the job go to the SDLP or a unionist of some description? Does anyone know? Also sounds a bit like Pat Doherty might have been a bit off-message. Haven’t heard from him for quite some time. Could he be Sf’s answer to Jim Allister? Takes the view that someone has to keep the hardliners and thus willing to go against party policy just to stir it
It was just a metter of time before the rejectionists started in with their shite.
SAMMY WILSON, DUP MP: “The ultimate test of this, because there is no trust in Sinn Fein, is will they deliver on supporting policing before they get into government?
They cannot get into government and not support the police.”
DAVID LIDINGTON, SHADOW NI SECRETARY: “We welcome this as a step forward. Now we need to see evidence of actions on the ground to demonstrate the republican movement is matching words with deeds.”
What exactly do they mean by “support” on the ground?
TB:
I might have spoken too soon. Pat Doherty’s comments on Sky News a few minutes ago could be interpreted such that there will be no implementation of the motion until powersharing is up and running.
The motion says those words, right at the very end. So it is not a matter of interpretation. It is business as usual until the powersharing institutions are back.
There is a problem here: if the motion is interpreted in the above way, SF Ministers could not take the pledge of office, which necessarily comes before powersharing “goes liveâ€. You can’t have powersharing without Ministers to share the power.
The motion says that the party leadership are authorized to implement the motion only when the, quote, ” power-sharing institutions are established and when the ard chomhairle is satisfied that the policing and justice powers will be transferred.”. I would say that the powersharing institutions will be deemed to have been established if we reach the point where SF ministers are taking their pledge of office. Also, policing and justice powers do not actually have to be transferred at that point; they just have to be satisfied that they will be. That seems to allow for SF supporting the policing and justice institutions in advance of the proposed May 2008 deadline.
Regarding whether the motion is enough for the DUP, I would say that it obviously is not. The DUP are talking of “evidence on the ground”, which this motion does not provide; on the other hand, Gerry Adams said in the Sunday World today that republicans who wish to join the police should not be impeded from doing so, a statement which is in itself a move forward.
Harris,
What part of you cannot be a minister without taking a pledge of office which includes support for the police do you not understand?
For what it’s worth, I think we’ll have a bit of crime reporting over the next few days-just a wee bit, mind
Comrade S.
I like your interpretation of events. Now be careful as to which Duppers you listen to. I wouldn’t be too worried about what Sammy says. It’s what Doc or Robbo says that’s the important bit.
Bemused
My position has been say it and do it so:
1. Good it was passed
2. It would have been a lot better if it was condition free but that was probably more to do with internal management to ensure a resounding victory than pique over purported phantom dealings.
3. Hopefully the large majority in favour means SF’s leadership will implement it immediately. If they don’t then today is not as significant as it has the potential to be.
It may be worth noting that the 1 in 10 opposed isn’t a beagle’s gowl off poll estimates of voter dissatisfaction. Although the more I see and hear of the dissenting elements the less I think they can make a cohesive and organised electoral force capable of galvanising on such unease.
BTW I haven’t got the O’Loan piece finished, new ‘target date’ Wednesday (A favour for a few friends and domesticity got in the way)
Harris,
“What exactly do they mean by “support†on the ground?”
Information which would help the McCartney murder and active support and evidence to the Corry Inquiries .
That would do for a start.
Sinn Fein took the ONLY decision it could today, well done , you did the right thing.
Now stand by for the real hard task of being involved in the British system. That means informing on dissident republicans and stoping the scams, like Hain said in the commons. The IMC will be used to monitor Sinn Fein in the coming months and YEARS.
Welcome to reality land.
Ding Ding
Ingram.
PS. AF called and motion passed as predicted a month ago hence Ding Ding.
I am confused. The dissidents believe that the police are corrupt and killing people, and to address this they believe that we should let them carry on doing so. Is that about right?
D’INGRAM,
Are you suggestingn that the British system is capable of monitoring itself?
Garibaldy,
was a show of hands. But you’ll see on the Tv how overwhelming it was …
I have watched a couple of broadcasts now and whilst it is clearly carried by the majority it is had to tell by how many. I disagree with the standard journo line already, that it was 90% or above. Seems like nonsense to me.
I can understand the show of hands at the usual AF where there are many motions to go through and be voted on but for this ocassion I think it is not the best gauge. One vote on one motion of such significance would lead me to believe that a ballot would be better suited. It would do away with the speculation forsure….but then maybe that’s the point. People have a split second to come to up with a figure and because most can’t they simply rely on the speculation of others.
I was expecting 80% to be a good result, less than 70% to be bad. 90% is excellent. Thanks goodness rhetoric is left to the loonies (who think they are “left” but are actually far right).
DK
Red Mist,
The shot I saw was from the podium or just in front. Huge majority, could see probably less than 20 against although was very brief. 90% might be excessive, but easily more than two-thirds.
It was about 90% and even those who voted against said they will support the decision and remain within the struggle ahead. This was the biggest Ard Fheis in history, and despite the issue- the most united.
Well Done!
Sinn Fein blew it today – Remember they DO NOT support the psni any more today than they did yesterday.
If this is no devolution then theres no support – its that simple. Once again SF are politicising policing and one more reason they shouldnt be allowed near it
‘Sinn Fein blew it today’
I can almost ‘feel’ that sense of wishful thinking on your part Observer.
An Historic day for the REpublican movement and now let’s move onwards!
Sinn Fein has just signed up to the British criminal justice system that is falling apart at the seams.
John Reid is fighting for his political life, policy is being made on the hoof, a system in chaos is what Sinn Fein find themselves allied to.
’Sinn Fein blew it today’
I can almost ‘feel’ that sense of wishful thinking on your part Observer.
An Historic day for the REpublican movement and now let’s move onwards!
Posted by maura on Jan 28, 2007 @ 08:36 PM
Maura are you saying that as of NOW Sinn Fein now support the PSNI, the courts and the rule of law?
yes or no
Garibaly,
Fair enough estimation that – two thirds. I’ll shake on it.
Yingyang,
“Are you suggestingn that the British system is capable of monitoring itself?”
LOL. Nice one, not raising to the bait. I am on sabatical from bashing the shinners till tomorrow.
Ding Ding
Ingram
Red Mist
“I have watched a couple of broadcasts now and whilst it is clearly carried by the majority it is had to tell by how many. I disagree with the standard journo line already, that it was 90% or above. Seems like nonsense to me.”
Not all in attendance had a vote, there were many visitors (Cumann members without vote) and guests. It was easily 90%
Purdah commences tomorrow, which means no announcements of a party politcal nature by Hain or his civil servants. This also means no appointments to policing boards or any other govt bodies.
graduate:
I like your interpretation of events. Now be careful as to which Duppers you listen to. I wouldn’t be too worried about what Sammy says. It’s what Doc or Robbo says that’s the important bit.
I’m pretty sure that Sammy Wilson is not one of the rejectionists, note that he welcomed the motion today as a move forward – the very concept of a DUP politician welcoming something being done by SF is itself breaking new ground. I would have placed him firmly in the Robinson camp.
In fairness to the DUP, it has been their clear position all along that there must be evidence on the ground of SF supporting the police, and I think Sammy’s statement was just a space-filler until the DUP have time to digest and respond. Of course, the DUP’s definition of what “support on the ground” actually means is an interesting part, but what is more interesting is whether the British government side with the DUP or SF in the run up to the establishment of the executive. I think Adams’ comments in the Sunday World are a good first step.
[my personal view is that there is presently no basis for a block on powersharing, and I want it established and up and running ASAP. I also want to see SF taking their seats on the Police Board and participating in the DPPs ASAP.]
“An Historic day for the REpublican movement”
Pitiful is about all one can say, if the shinners were to say OK we do not like doing this, but we must due to the reformist road we have chosen would be understandable. [although a big mistake imo] But to actually rejoice in officially recognizing and tipping ones cap to the British legal system is as I said pitiful, and without rhyme or reason as far as republicanism is concerned.
I personally feel that SF, by excepting policing and justice in such a groveling manner will bring the growth of SF to a halt, they will do well to maintain the current dumber of TDs in the Dail.
All the party can hope for is for the DUP refuse to enter into the Stormont administration with SF, and even then it will only be a temporally lease of life. Whatever the DUP decides the one certainty is that both they and the UK State will continuously raise the bar, for they will never forgive the PRM for its armed insurgency, no matter how much honey Blair and his US allies whispers into Mr Adams ear.
You got everything the Sinn Fein should have given you.
You have some proving to do yourselves
they put out their hand now can Little ian take it or will he have his bluff called
You got everything the Sinn Fein should have given you.
You have some proving to do yourselves
they put out their hand now can Little ian take it or will he have his bluff called
Posted by Sean on Jan 28, 2007 @ 09:19 PM
Sean in practical terms what has changed in SFs working with the PSNI, giving support to the courts etc , since saturday… NOTHING.