It seems policing is a number one desireable job amongst Polish immigrants. According to the BBC, “968 of a total of more than 7,700 applications last November were from Poles – more than 12%”. Thanks to Robert for the heads up!
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Waow, what a perfect solution. The Poles can join the RUC/PSNI and bring up the number of Catholics in the organization, without introducing any “Fenians” to the team. What a concept!
Do Poles count as Catholics for the purpose of the 50%-50% recruitment? I had heard from Fair_Deal saying that they would count as ethnic minorities, and therefore would be included under Protestants.
Poles are non-UK national applicants and as far as I would be aware UK/Irish national Catholics count for the Catholic element of the quota arrangement…(?)
I queried the PSNI about the impact of 50-50 recruitment on immigrants looking to join a few months back (it was from the perspective that non-Catholic ethnic minorities looking to join the PSNI would be disadvantaged by it). I asked was there an exemption in place for migrants and ethnic minorities but was told that recruitment is done on a stricty 50 per cent Catholic, 50 per cent non-Catholic basis. It looks to me like an accidental loop-hole. I would also be interested to find out what the story is with previous years. How many of the Catholic applicants, (which we would have certainly been left with the impression were of the nationalist variety) were migrants?
It’s an interesting story though, because it does illustrate the total lack of actual relevance religion has to the divide. The Patten reforms would have had similar relevance had they proposed recruitment on a 50 per cent Celtic supporter, 50 per cent non-Celtic supporter basis.
don’t worry – as far as a lot of idiots will be concerned Poles are still Fenians.
Good on the Poles for showing a desire to serve the Public, but is maintaining the rule of law now reduced to one of those jobs that Brits won’t do?
David Vance
7000 applications for how many posts? I think you have your answer about who is willing to do it.
Patton designated people as Catholic and non-Catholic. Ethnic minorities are included in the non-catholic section regardless of their denomination or religion AFAIK
What about people from the Republic. There was an article in the Irish Times on Tuesday about people from the South migrating to NI and one of them was in the PSNI – he said (from memory) that there are a lot of Southerners in the PSNI as it pays better than the Gardai. Do they count as Catholics or ehnic minorities?
Brilliant, 50% of the applicants are northern nationalists, the other 50% are Poles and freestaters. Soon the dissident republicans will be attacking the PSNI for being too nationalist.
How far we have come for the days of the B-Specials. The jackboot of the Orangeman is slowly being removed from this part of Ireland.
Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous? Who do the Poles think they are to walk into the unique situation of contentious politics in n. ireland – especially in relation to policing – and join up with a british force to police irish people, for no other reason than that the money is good?
Coupled with the story of the immigrants who were working inside the submarine bar while an industrial dispute was going on involving the other staff who were indigenous irish, the effect of these people is going to be significantly negative in ways rarely alluded to in the media. There is trouble coming.
I too was an emigrant. When I emigrated I didn’t for one moment think of doing so to become a scab in someone else’s country or involve myself in highly sensitive political issues affecting the natives in the country I went to.
Apparently the eastern europeans think they can act differently.
Seein religion isn’t going to play a part anyways, shouldn’t they be exempt from the quota system entirely? How do you explain to them that they’re the wrong kind of Catholic?
Polish Service of Northern Ireland.= PSNI
If they are all hot blondes who cares?? You’ll not be able to tell the apart from strip-o-grams.
It will make a change from big fat Orangemen called Sammy or Billy, who’ll hand all your details over to the nearest UDA member at the drop of a hat. And at least they won’t have a conflict of interest on the 12th.
I remember there being some allegation that the RUC’s Catholic recruits were largely English.
Good post Harry.
Harry
Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous?
Welcome to our world
at least the poles arent joing the prison service,that would be ironic,do you think the new polish police man/woman would take more offence to the chant ss r.u.c/psni,but at least there are plus es instead of losing all our rebel music which sang about our victories and united irelands, we can change british to polish without losing our hits parade of rebel songs
Sounds the same if you’re a bit pissed – the Polish Service of Northern Ireland.
don’t see all the fuss about Poles joining the PSNI
There are Catholic members of the PSNI living in ANDERSONSTOWN….(FACT)… besides it’s better the Poles are in the PSNI than the liverpool football team because Jerzy Dudek is crap.
Will a white Pole understand being called a Black Bastard?
The Devil There are Catholic members of the PSNI living in ANDERSONSTOWN….(FACT)…
I thought that they knocked down Andytown Police Station ??????????
Surely what must concern us most is the provision for transvestites. I understand that provision is already made to permit the wearing of the regulation policewoman’s uniform for transexuals. We must now ensure that this provision is extended to male officers who prefer to don female garb.
Perhaps our church leaders can take the lead here in campaigning for the implementation of this important aspect of human rights, they are, after all, in the habit of dressing rather strangely themselves.
Harry – are you for real?
“Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous?”
Sadly no – you’ll find lots of your friends calling Stephen Nolan when the word gets out.
“Who do the Poles think they are to walk into the unique situation of contentious politics in n. ireland – especially in relation to policing – and join up with a british force to police irish people,”
Classic – as if the fact that a potential peeler who is ‘born and bred’ in NI guarantees that they will make a positive contribution to policing. The less we are obsessed with our ‘unique situation of contentious politics’ the more chance we have of a future that will differ from the past.
“for no other reason than that the money is good?”
Since when are we surprised that people apply for jobs that offer an attractive wage? Are you suggesting that non-polish applicants are only signing up for the good of society?
Welcome to Europe.
Robert Carry
“How many of the Catholic applicants, (which we would have certainly been left with the impression were of the nationalist variety) were migrants? ”
No robert, in actual fact these Polish applicants who are most probably Catholic at birth are grouped into the Protestant applications. The 50% ratio only applies to UK and Irish Catholics applying.
Bizarre!!
No better place than a ‘post-nationalist’ society for subterfuge about how we shouldn’t mind giving guns and authority to foreigners to police us.
It’s retrograde and offensive. It’s being done in the name and interests of british nationalism on this island. These Poles are mercenaries. If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population. Otherwise they’re asking for trouble – and they’ll deserve it.
This is about power. Only a fool would give up such power to foreigners and say it’s an improvement of their lives and their political situation. It is disempowering and offensive.
None of the Polish were Catholic at birth. They had to be baptised first.
Dear me, it’s good to see racism alive and well on both sides of the divide. United we stand, eh?
BTW does anyone have a reputable source on the 50:50 recruitment not applying and/or Polish Catholics being lumped in with Protestants and other minorities??
What’s racist about welcoming foreigners to come and live and work in Ireland but tell them they will be held personally responsible if they involve themselves in things which are none of their business?
If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population
Harry, I’ve some excellent grass here. You’re welcome to come round for a smoke, your mindset needs shifting.
harry,
I’m not a fan of the PSNI/UVF but you argument baffles me. How is this different from the Irish who went to New York and joined the NYPD to police Harlem?
the actions of the police are either right or wrong, irrespective of the origins of the individual officers.
Marty,
Do we have to agree with Harry before we get invited round for a spliff. Chill out, man, that’s discriminatory.
Rory,
All round to mine in that case :O)
BTW, what about Poles who join the Gardai? (I’m assuming non-nationals can…)
oops, forgot to add – is that offensive to some of our less broadminded colleagues?
i’m assuming non-nationals can..
They can indeed and are actively encouraged. There are 200,000 odd polish alone in the ROI, and then there are Chinese, Africans, Indians and so on. The Gardai need members from the different ethnic backgrounds to properly provides services to these communities
The Gardai need members from the different ethnic backgrounds to properly provides services to these communities
Glad to hear it. And while we don’t have the same relative numbers of ethnic minorities in the North, we will do in the not too distant future and we’ll therefore need member of those communities in the Police.
From my experience of Eastern Europeans etc working in restaurants etc in Belfast they have, unlike a lot of their local colleagues, excellent manners and are very pleasant. So if I’ve just been pulled over for doing 60 in a 40 I can at least expect the Polish officer will be pleasant :O)
Ireland is not the US. Most countries are not the US. The US is an immigrant country, it’s identity is founded on that. Those who compare us to the US as if we must slavishly follow their habits and attitudes are simply following the anglo-american cultural route laid down for them to follow.
In European nations traditionally only those who were born in the country are allowed to become police officers. At the very least they must be citizens. In this case it would seem a bunch of Poles have arrived recently and fancy setting themselves up as plenipotentiaries of a long-disputed power. This is not part of our culture or of european culture; it is however in line with the depowering self-denial we are encouraged to indulge in by the champions of ‘post-nationalism’.
Funny how ‘post-nationalism’ always seems to mean post-Irish-nationalism, while british nationalism on the island of ireland proceeds apace towards normalisation and acceptance.
Transparent nonsense.
If these Poles want to work let them find a normal job. Otherwise they deserve to be run out of it.
Just admit it Harry, it’s nowt to do with the fact it’s the PSNI they’re joining, you’re just racist.
i’m irish my friend. i don’t accept foreigners policing us. my position is rational. your position however is irrational, unnecssary and self-defeating.
let the poles who want to, stay here for a lifetime, commit to ireland and perhaps, after 15 years or so of integration, then give them guns and power to go out and enforce rules upon the citizens. after all at that stage they will be truly part of the society they are supposed to be imposing their force upon. they will also better understand the mores, attitudes and rules of the society at that stage, undoubtedly necessary if you seek to set yourself up as an arbiter of the law.
what you propose to acquiesce to on the other hand is foolish, offensive, self-defeating and unnecessary. why do you champion poles becoming armed enforcers in our society? what possible rationale could you have for such an entirely unnecessary policy?
would it be ok if 1000 irishmen went to poland and walked around with guns telling the locals what to do? what do you think the poles would do?
we irish have been depowered for long enough. we should not accept british interference let alone the new polish vanguard.
the new polish vanguard.
Right, I’m off to the pub.
In European nations traditionally only those who were born in the country are allowed to become police officers
Not true.
And from that low point, your post descended even further.
Ignore the Little Irelanders.
Best coppers irrespective of race or religion.
A multi-cultural PSNI? Can’t wait.
Marty
“I’m not a fan of the PSNI/UVF but you argument baffles me. How is this different from the Irish who went to New York and joined the NYPD to police Harlem? ”
Actually I was surprised to learn that nowadays at least you have to be an US citizen to be an US cop. One of my mates worked in the Met and is married to a Yank. He moved over there last year and couldn’t be a cop until he got his citizenship.
Amusingly he can’t even vote in his local library elections until he gets his citizenship.
Thank you
Dr Who,
If you’re right, somebody really should tell the PSNI press office. I was onto them again today and amoung other thinks asked:
‘How will this effect 50-50 recruitment?’
Response was:
‘It doesn’t impact on 50:50 recruitment at all as an equal number of people must be recruited regardless of their nationality.’
“would it be ok if 1000 irishmen went to poland and walked around with guns telling the locals what to do? what do you think the poles would do?”
If the Irishmen were doing a good job then sweet F.A. as in most countries they’re happy enough if crime is kept under control.
“If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population.”
Ah but then you see you’d only moan that they are depressing wage levels / stealing jobs from locals or whatever rubbish you and your BNP buddies are spouting this week.
Poles generally couldn’t give a toss one way or the other about the petty sectarian shite in NI so I guess having neutrals in will make a nice change.
By the way it’s a new one to me that 50% of the population doesnt want any law and order at all. Even Sinn Fein have belatedly realised that. Try to keep up with the times there’s a good chap.
How can it be “racist” to find this story disturbing? The Poles are white europeans. If people moaned about 1000 Nigerians applying then that might be racist.
right harry, give the new polish cops no guns,just radio s, then they can call for armed assistance ,if they see them dissident boys about.and our boys and girls can come and fill them fill the dirty dissidents in
The old ‘xenophobia’ diatribe against those who actually investigate what these things mean and questions why such rapid change is so very much in our interests.
I come from a liberal background and always considered myself a liberal in these things. I still do. I turn my mind hopwever to the question of power structures and their effects on our society, especially the eternally pressing and cynical manipulation of power structures in n. ireland and across this island as a whole by the british and the southern establishment. It is clear, after 90 years, that much of the status quo is damaging to the potential of our country. These power structures – from the unionist statelet in the north to the uber-catholicism of the south with its strict social and sexual controls, its anti-intellectualism and now its rampant corrupt gombeenism – have traditionally mitigated against the fulfilment of the potential of the irish, as a nation and as individuals.
Ireland, both before independence and after, has been treated as a whore or a passive victim, laid out to be taken by others, a resource to be plundered and from which powerful individuals can take profit at the expense of much greater numbers than themselves. Under successive governments in the south after independence the people were infantilised and treated with hierarchical contempt – not dissimilar to how they were traditionally treated by the british – and funnily enough, not dissimilar to the way they are being treated today by the combined rapine of corrupt cartels and profiteering. In short, gombeenism.
Truly, as Joyce makes Daedalus say, “Ireland is an old sow that devours her farrow”.
And so today, in this issue of who is to police the population, we see the same questions and the same processes and pressures towards power-structures serving themselves at the expense of the irish people and in pursuit of an agenda which, ultimately, is not in our interests either individually on a psychological level or collectively. We are being told to engage in ‘post-nationalism’ in regards to our policing, an issue which only very recently people were dying about. This ‘post-nationalism’ works, as I have pointed out, always in favour of british nationalism and always in the effort ot attenuate irish nationalism. Irish nationalsim is the big ‘No No, because apparently being 85% of the population of the island is inconvenient to british interests and so must be represented as backward and threatening. The future lies with ‘post-nationalism’ apparently and who controls the future controls the present.
Why is it so strange to demand that those who policie a society should come from that society and should have long been integrated to that society? What is so radical or racist about such a view? Is it not those who oppose such a view and who would impose a rushed and radically new dispensation who are in fact unbalanced and not sensible?
This is about power, about structures of power, about feeling ownership of your society and confidence in asserting that. It is about those who seek to push through ‘post-nationalist’ realities for british nationalist reasons. It is about a nation which has nebver had a chance to be fully a nation being pushed somewhere else psychologically and sociologically before it ever has a chance to be a nation again.
Most nations in europe do not recruit foreigners into their polcie forces. They have various records with regard to recruitment of ethnic minorites and reflect the make-up of their own societies in their police forces to different degrees.
The british have gone furthest in recruitment of ethnic minorites into their police forces. It is therefore, out of all of europe, the british example (along with the american) we are being asked to follow. There is no reason why we should do so.
Polish people walking into this situtaion to become police officers are asking for trouble. Stopping an irish person on the street and demanding information off them as a foreigner with a gun strapped to your side is offensive and depowering for the host community. The is no reason why we should do this to ourselves since we can perfectly well choose not to do it. We can choose differently. Just as most other european countries.
Those who deny these realities are choosing a future that is less interesting and more depowered than is possible.
Perhaps having members of the force with no local political affiliation either way is actually a step in the right direction?
We all know what happens when a police service’s membership is dominated by one community over another…
Here is the relevant Act. Section 46 gives you what you need to know.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00032–g.htm#46
(8) In subsections (1), (4) and (5) “treated as Roman Catholic” means treated by the Chief Constable in accordance with the Monitoring Regulations as belonging to the Roman Catholic community in Northern Ireland.
(5) In making appointments to relevant posts in the police support staff under subsection (3) of section 4 on any occasion, the Chief Constable (acting by virtue of subsection (5) of that section) shall appoint from the pool of qualified applicants formed for that purpose by virtue of section 44(6) an even number of persons of whom-
(a) one half shall be persons who are treated as Roman Catholic; and
(b) one half shall be persons who are not so treated.
Thanks Miss Fitz.
In other words these Poles are indeed put in the 50% with the NI protestants. So that it’s now even harder for NI protestants to get a job in the PSNI as the extent of the discrimination is increasing.
Further, the Poles (and other minority groups) are being discriminated against as a result of the rule, because they are not Irish Catholic.
This 50%-50% quota thing is getting unsustainable.