MI5 in (Northern) Ireland
The Press Association has Prime Minister Tony Blair’s statement on national security, as noted yesterday – not yet now online elsewhere Adds Statement on No 10 website Updated linkFrom the PA report
“There has been some concern over the arrangements set out in Annex E, which was published along with the St Andrews Agreement. The Government is therefore issuing a new statement in relation to national security.
“This will help bring Northern Ireland into line with a European approach which would provide a consistent and co-ordinated response to the threat from international terrorism which concerns us all.
“The threat presented by international terrorism to citizens was graphically illustrated by the train bombings in Madrid and on the streets of London in July 2005. The loss of life was horrific and completely unacceptable.
“The handling of national security intelligence throughout the European Union, including Northern Ireland, is designed to provide a consistent and co-ordinated response to the grave threat posed by international terrorist groups such as al Qaida.
“The PSNI and the Security Service will be completely distinct and entirely separate bodies.
“All necessary interaction between the Security Service and the PSNI, for example in response to the threat of international terrorism, will, as directed by the Chief Constable, by way of liaison. No police officers will be seconded to or under the control of the Security Service.
“The small number of police officers who act in a liaison capacity with the Security Service will be PSNI Headquarters staff acting in that role for fixed time-limited periods to the extent that the Chief Constable deems necessary for them to perform their duties.
“Policing is the responsibility solely of the PSNI. The Security Service will have no role whatsoever in civic policing.
“Leadership and direction of all police work is the responsibility of the Chief Constable who will remain accountable to the Policing Board.
“All PSNI officers will be employed by the PSNI and will be accountable solely to the Chief Constable and to the Policing Board and upon transfer to the Ministers for Justice.
“The Patten policing reforms will be maintained and there will be no diminution in police accountability.
“When the Policing Board establishes a special purposes committee under section 28 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2003 the Government will make any necessary statutory provision to ensure it will be representative of all political parties on the Board.
“Future Justice Ministers will receive the same level of information as does the Board and the special purposes committee.
“The Ombudsman will have statutory powers to hold to account all police officers. The Ombudsman will also have statutory access to all information held by the police.
“The Ombudsman`s Office and the Security Service will agree arrangements for the Ombudsman`s access to sensitive information held by the Service, where necessary for the discharge of the Ombudsman`s statutory duties.
“Furthermore, I can confirm that the Government will invite Lord Carlile, and any successor, to review annually the operation of the arrangements for handling national security-related matters in Northern Ireland.
“In the course of his review, he will consult the Chief Constable, the Policing Board and the Police Ombudsman, as well as taking into account any views which the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and, in due course, Justice Ministers may put to him.”
Does anyone else find it kind of odd that Sinn Fein – which would not accept the PSNI with what are acknowledged as some of the best accountability mechanisms in the world – has accepted MI5 with none? Blair’s promise of separation between MI5 and PSNI means nothing, because MI5 has primacy in intellingence-gathering, including in the republican community. In fact, separation actually removes the small bit of oversight that the Ombudsman had established. We are going backwards, and this side deal will blow up just as the On-the-runs deal did a year ago, because there are victims of MI5 violence and collusion out there and they will not quietly accept a Sinn Fein diktat.
Pat,
I thought you were talking out of your rear end about MI5 involvement in civic policing. You can come back anytime, when you find a suitable example though?
You seem to be as confused as the political party known as Sinn Fein. This is what THEY CLAIMED.
quote”The St. Andrews proposals would have embedded MI5 into civic policing with the real potential of again creating a force within a force. “unquote
Pat quote”In fact there is no MI5 involvement in civic policing, that has been announced today, have you not been listening?
Are you still confused Pat? here is another one for you.
Sinn Fein statement today.”Our objective has been to firewall local policing from the malign and corruptive control of MI5. The proposals today remove MI5 from policing structures in Ireland. unquote
Ingram Comment
MI5 has not been removed from policing structures in Ireland.
1. MI5 will be responsible for collecting information upon Republican terrorist.The PM confirmed that today.
2. Nothing in this agreement stops MI5 from operating in the Republic.
No Change then.
Ding Ding
Yokel.
Agreed. Northern Ireland is anything but simple. Just take a look at how Pat Mc is trying to play semantics with this MI5 issue.
It does look like Sinn Fein have ditched the OTR issue for the time being though! it see ms they have their hands full keeping the ship together.
Good Luck
Martin
Ingram,
‘MI5 have never been involved in speeding, rape nor Burglary.’
No mention of civic policing just someone rather confusingly trying to make a point.
quote “The St. Andrews proposals would have embedded MI5 into civic policing with the real potential of again creating a force within a force. “unquote
and
‘Pat quote”In fact there is no MI5 involvement in civic policing, that has been announced today, have you not been listening?’
No contradiction there, what is the point?
and
‘Sinn Fein statement today.”Our objective has been to firewall local policing from the malign and corruptive control of MI5. The proposals today remove MI5 from policing structures in Ireland. unquote
They do, that has been accepted by Blair. That is why he has described the PSNI and MI5 as totally separate organisations.
Again in your lastest post you seem to be using quotes as some sort of reference point. I realise that you are trying to make a point and are having difficulty doing so, it is just that I find it tiresome trying to tease it out.
‘It does look like Sinn Fein have ditched the OTR issue for the time being though! it see ms they have their hands full keeping the ship together.’
As had been stated on a previous thread, that you claimed to have archived for referenced, the OTRs have nothing to do with the policing issue.
Martin
Can I ask you an off-topic question? Yokel raised the Brendan Davidson case.
I was thinking of that recently. Wasn’t he a good mate of Scapaticci’s?
When he was killed presumably Scapaticci knew it had been facilitated by someone in the British Military establishment. I just wondered how he would have continued to work for an organisation that had essentially allowed his friend (and their servant) to be killed?
Presumably he would think if they can do that to Davidson, they can do that to me?
Just wondered if you had a view……
Pat,
I will leave it to others to point out the contradictions you seem unable to understand. No problem
I think me and you are well aware of each others position. We may be taking away from the debate.
You seem content to back this policing package. I am pleased for that.
I pointed out to you and others the reality of the situation.
Let us now agree to disagree. The Nationalist/ Republican community will decide the merit or otherwise of this negotiated deal.
Andy.
Yes, From memory Freddy was blood related to Ruby.They certainly were friends.
Freddy only knew the IRA had rumbled him. Freddy controlled that side so there was no imminent threat to his life.Indeed the situation could have been recoverd.
What Freddy was not aware of was the interest in him via Nelson and others. The guy who supplied the Instruction to Nelson to commence the targetting was and remains an SB tout.
My own person view is the SB requested that targetting.
Freddy was not to have known that aspect of the murder, if he had I am sure he would have been dissapointed in the attack.
The Branch had their reasons for removing Davison, just like they tried with McGartland but no decent human being can work with those narrow principles.
Good Luck
Ingram
Hmm, I’m beginning to wonder if perhaps Sinn Fein are happy with this MI5 situation. After all, if I understand this whole arrangement properly, it’ll be MI5 who will be monitoring and arresting Republicans. If it was the PSNI performing this role then SF would have to support the arrests and condemn those arrested (if charged and convicted). But with the spooks carrying out these arrests SF can still have a bit of wriggle room (along the lines of ‘we dont support MI5, we’re working to get rid of them, they’re not accountable, your arrest was the fault of securocrats and brit thugs etc’).
Fair enough, they still have to support any convictions, but perhaps the sight of the new fenian PSNI raiding homes in Andytown and Coalisland would just be too much.
Or maybe i’m just getting too cynical about the whole thing.
Yokel,
> The article you quoted was about imposition etc of a Justice Minister. What you quoted has already been surpassed.
I don’t see that at all. I think that this is a commitment which remains. The seal has yet to be set to this last remaining element however, the MI5 issue has been resolved to SF’s satisfaction however.
> How have MI5 leadership suffered a setback? They are just getting on with work as they always have done.
You obviously missed the most central part of my email. MI5 are losing the ability to gather intelligence on the ground through the PSNI and will have to rely on their own agents – whether ex-SB or not. This represents a significant achievement for Republicans as grassroots-based intelligence gathering is central to any ‘intelligence’ service. As well as that, those few PSNI who will liaise with the MI5 will be held accountable locally and will be regularly substituted preventing the creation of a putative ‘force within a force’.
> Do you think there was some huge battle going on with Tony slugging it out with MI5?
I doubt there was much slugging out but they’ve certainly moved backwards from Annex E as demonstrated by Kelly. This has taken quite a time since SF came out against that section of the agreement. This has been a rough month all around.
martin,
we’ve both retired hence our ability to spend alot of time here on Sluggers.
I’d a business doing breakfasts and lunches in Bed and Breakfasts.
You could therefore say.
You’re ex special branch
whereas I’m ex special brunch
LOL
Eolas.
I think you are not factoring in the most important aspect into your assessment.
quote This represents a significant achievement for Republicans as grassroots-based intelligence gathering is central to any ‘intelligence’ service.
Comment.
MI5 have recruited many of the old SB/FRU handlers. They have taken control of 100% of all SB sources.
The reason for this is to make the transition seamless for the Agent.
The major concern for any Intelligence organisation is to ensure the constant stream of material.That will not be hampered by this planned move. Indeed , previously the SB had to operate under the watchfull eye of the Ombudsman. MI5 do not have those concerns.That makes their ability to work BOTH sides of the border so much easier.
This reorganisation is not unique to Northern Ireland. It is happening in all parts of the UK.It is not something Sinn Fein had a say in.
In relation to a PSNI L/O. They merely facilitate the a room in a police station or the odd Police man etc.
They are not integral to a Operation. The Ombudsman would only able ask. How did you obtain that room PC Plod?
Regards.
Martin
Eolas
This circle isnt going to be squared. You see one thing and I see something very different.
Pat
If you believe that PSNI / MI5 liaison is purely to sort out difficulties you work away. If there’s a threat the government and its agencies will not give two hoots for Tony Blair statements. Words, and Tony specializes in those.
You know as well as I do what I mean about the DUP not giving out about it. If the DUP saw a concession they’d be whinging. They haven’t. There are multiple ways of working out if youve had success and one is to look at what your opponents are doing. Anyway who gives two hoots about SF moaning about Paisley’s lack of clarity, sure what do SF know anyhow? Why should anyone care?
An Bearnach
As I said, if there was limited oversight and its now gone at SF’s request who were SF trying to protect from oversight?
Yokel,
quote”As I said, if there was limited oversight and its now gone at SF’s request who were SF trying to protect from oversight?
LOL
Now you are getting to the sensitive bit? shall we leave that to another day! before Sinn Fein blow a fuse to Mick?
Regards.Ding Ding
Mr Brunch
At the risk of addressing the thread,
“The handling of national security intelligence throughout the European Union, including Northern Ireland, is designed to provide a consistent and co-ordinated response to the grave threat posed by international terrorist groups such as al Qaida.â€
Would the 24 hour news station have ever happened without the British cartographer?
Obviously, one of them thought it was a damn fine idea to draw a line through the middle of a tribal area and call one side Afghanistan and the other Pakistan.
And was it not the bould Winston who came up with that knickerbocker ice-cream country called Iraq?
And is the UK (Norn Iron/Six Counties included) not Number One on the US Terror Country Chart?
Surely if the master is wandering around making a mess there bloody well better be a butler around to clean it up.
No one suggested that MI5 wouldn’t continue its activities in Ireland (any part of it). They would and will anyhow.
This is about ensuring that the PSNI are opened up entirely to local scrutiny. Only on that condition could Republicans ever enter or support the PSNI.
My point is that if someone walks into the PSNI and offers information, that information and its use will not be hidden from local accountability mechanisms. This is undoubtedly a reverse for British military intelligence who would like all that under wraps for their own ends.
MI5 will lose considerable ‘reach’ without PC Plod to do stuff and hear stuff locally in a hidden manner. At least that’s the promise. One aspect to the struggle will now be to expose the failures to live up to this new form of civic policing.
There was no comprehensive oversight of the SB or any PSNI on ‘national security’ matters under Annex E if you read it carefully. SS in conjunction with SB would continue to run agents in relation to ‘national security’ matters and would not be open to local accountability mechanisms. Only the blind could miss that this represents a gain for nationalists.
Kelly has correctly compared and contrasted IMHO.
An Bearnach, it seems SF are happy to take the British government on its word rather than ensure there are clear mechanisms in place for complaints. So much for SF negociating skills! You just know when it all goes pear shaped, they’ll try and tell us that it isn’t their fault though!
Yokel
‘You know as well as I do what I mean about the DUP not giving out about it.’
Sorry I leave things like reading minds to Ingram.
‘If the DUP saw a concession they’d be whinging.’
I don’t make my assessments on anything based on noises emanating from the DUP.
‘Anyway who gives two hoots about SF moaning about Paisley’s lack of clarity, sure what do SF know anyhow? Why should anyone care?’
Well those interested in devolution as without SF no devolution is possible.
“…without SF no devolution is possible…”
True. But this is not the first time SF have place a choke hold on the Nationalist community they claim to represent. I for one would like to know what mechanisms has Gerry negociated to make intelligence gathering subject to oversight and complaints?
‘But this is not the first time SF have place a choke hold on the Nationalist community they claim to represent.’
What choke hold? The majority of nationalists vote for SF.
Britsh intelligence have murdered and colluded in murder all through their history in this place. Not one, not one of their personnel has been charged with anything. Their government will do anything to ensure that stays in place. Therefore the belief that there could be any locally appointed scrutineer of British national security services is naive.
Who decides what is a matter of national security? And, is the process really accountable to anyone or any body such as the PM or a Parlimentary committee?
New Yorker
The right question.
MI5 will always work back from the final dominoes they are protecting … and go back down the civic policing chain to stop the first domino toppling.
In my experience this includes calls for care inquiry into Social Services child care deaths and calls for inquiry into care standards and deaths in private care homes. It includes refusing crime complaints about police firearms certificate issues and paramilitary live fire training at a gun range.
The idea that their influence/control is limited is like the concept of being a little bit pregnant. It is just a mild case … with no consequences down the line.
eolas
“No one suggested that MI5 wouldn’t continue its activities in Ireland (any part of it).”
Are you sure about that?
“We reject any role for MI5 in Ireland or in civic policing.”
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/16629
So many words to say something which is really stone simple.
MI5 has validated that the chuckies will join with the PSNI this year and they are boxing up their stereo and old LP’s and moving out, moles, stooges and all.
So does that portend a PSNI hurling team with midfielders named Billy?
“MI5 has validated that the chuckies will join with the PSNI this year and they are boxing up their stereo and old LP’s and moving out, moles, stooges and all.”
They’re not moving out, Jim… far from it.
For many many months I have sat back and watched you all slobber on about Sinn Fein, MI5 & the Branch. trying to work out the way they work, & what the big picture is. Take it from someone who has had it shoved up his Ar*e side ways for Manny Manny years by the security services, & Martin Mc, & the IRA army council, Like it or not you have all been tangoed by the British establishment. ( I Thank God, I was not alone.)
Who is it that gains here in the North of Ireland from a republican ‘infiltrated’ or ‘contaminated’ neo-PSNI being completely detached from a reconstituted Special branch/Fru retro-MI5 security set-up full of knecks, sectarian bigots and doers of appalling evil?
The British establishment and the secret service.
How did this happen? Sinn Féin’s MI5 agents of influence influencing and smoothing the path for the cultivation and of MI5′s future agents of influence (think very, very long game)… and being so secure in their agency roles as to be bragging, about nay trumpeting, their success (!!) on the 6 oclock news.
Sin a bhfuil, so blind and deluded are Patsy, Chris and Henry srl … that even now after today they can’t grasp the pitiful playing out of a compromised ‘peace’ strategy by a completely compromised Sinn Féin leadership accountable only to their Oc’s in MI5 !!!
And people on this blog are wondering why Baby Doc and the Dupid’s aren’t boovered ???
Is mise
Fuiseog
“They’re not moving out, Jim… far from it. “
No sweat Pedro, I didn’t mean to deny the freakin’ obvious.
They’ll still be around to run both sides of this wee struggle. They’ve been pulling the strings through moles on both sides for going on 40 years and I doubt if there’s a twelve step program for that kind of power withdrawal.
What all this navel gazing of 70-odd posts is about is that MI5 now knows for certain that the shinners are soon going to have administrative posts in the PSNI, even if the rest of the province is still milling around in the endless debate. That means that MI5 has to build a firewall since the republicans will soon be about the place nosing into the odd black op or two. Therefore, Via Con Dios, flatfoots, no interface on ops or touts, nicht, nada, zip.
Back to the real world. Got my Losmandy today. It’s now raining.
Fuiseog,
quoteHow did this happen? Sinn Féin’s MI5 agents of influence influencing and smoothing the path for the cultivation and of MI5’s future agents of influence (think very, very long game)… and being so secure in their agency roles as to be bragging, about nay trumpeting, their success (!!) on the 6 oclock news. unquote
Surely not! what would make you come to that viewpoint?
* shakeshead*
Ding Ding
Fuiseog,
‘How did this happen? Sinn Féin’s MI5 agents of influence influencing and smoothing the path for the cultivation and of MI5’s future agents of influence (think very, very long game)… and being so secure in their agency roles as to be bragging, about nay trumpeting, their success (!!) on the 6 oclock news.’
Yip when all else fails make way for the ready smear.
Hmmm, interesting.
A back handed compliment on a blog post from a black hearted disowned spook who, in missing that old adrenalin rush, nowadays gets his kicks from revealing the Brit game plan (of which he was undoubtedly a player) bit by bit to watch the old enemy and the apparatchik Shinners squirm.
Alongside a shallow hypocritical retort from a man who claims allegiance (online at least) to the ‘smear’ kings of Ireland da da …. Sinn Féin.
You can hardly deny Pat the “coincidence” of mutual advantage, outlined in numerous posts on this thread alone, of the Sinn Féin line and MI5′s interests in the North of Ireland?
Like I said I wonder how that happened and If Sinn Féin have achieved such a coup in this zero sum game why are the DUPid’s up in arms about it at this crucial time and during all this political eyeballing?
Is mise
Fuiseog
Fuiseog,
if you expect a free ride with your feeble smears try elsewhere.
Perhaps you can share with us what you know and who you got it from? I can guess, following Ingram and a few sozzled hacks.
Better off sticking to your sham fights in the Swilly and a limited imagination. The porveyors of disinformation can’t believe their luck with the likes of you.
BTW if you base political manoeuvrings on the basis of the reaction of others don’t ever, ever, ever play poker. Your account will end up as bankrupt as your thought process.
Pat,
Go easy on Fuiseog he has nailed my colours to the mast, was he close on you.Perhaps he is a meduim?
Anyway to serious stuff.
Do you play Poker mate?
Ding Ding
Martin
Medium – a person through whom the spirits of the dead are alleged to be able to contact the living. (Dictionary.com)
Here’s hoping Mr Ingram … sooner rather than later, as Fuiseog gives the spook a wry smile and a mutual tip of the hat … big boys rules and all that
“The porveyors of disinformation can’t believe their luck with the likes of you.”
You mean the likes of your sparing partner El Purveyor’ Ingram here in the daily ‘Pat and Marty’ show?
Thats simply more tiresome drivel Pat. Have you nothing of substance to add? That’s mildly disappointing … at least Ingram is deceptively candid about his being rankled at my post and can cleverly twist his being annoyed at what he’d read. I kinda admire that in a way … whilst you being unable to cleverly twist anything … remain just twisted
Is mise
Fuiseog
Fuiseog,
‘Perhaps you can share with us what you know and who you got it from?’
Nothing but silence and further nonsense, from the person who gave us the battle of the Swilly as proof (sic) of developments on the ground who later admitted the unfortunate use of tabloid language.
Rankled by your post? An anonymous troll spreading smears, yeah really rankled there.