Would that be white smoke I see?
Cheers to Parcifal for spotting this:
Sinn Féin edged closer to an historic acceptance of policing in the North by tonight calling a special party conference for January on the issue.
Sinn Féin tonight edged closer to an historic acceptance of policing in the North by calling for a special party conference on the issue in January. Party president Gerry Adams got the support for the move from Sinn Féin’s 56 member national executive after a marathon six-hour talk session in Dublin. The decision follows intensive negotiations over Christmas between Sinn Féin and the British government, but the response of the DUP will be crucial to restoring a power-sharing administration in the North.
UPDATE: ‘Although this was the outcome everyone was expecting, it doesnt make it any less significant. ‘The BBC report from Denis Murray
UPDATE: The Sinn Fein statement
UPDATE: Peter Hain’s comments
Policing is no longer relevant issue.
Ms Fitz,
Do you wish to run that one past me again? as to MI5 both the UK PM and his Home secretary have made it clear that MI5 are an integral part of their criminal justice system. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the political reality the shinners are always going on about.
With respect the silliness of your above statement is highlighted by the fact that both the British government and the DUP were so insistent that SF bite the policing bullet, if it is of no importance why make such an issue of it.
Of course you know the answer, it is once you accept the right of the state to arrest and put before a court its citizens, you have accepted the State itself in it entirety. Which is what the Brits demanded of SF.
But for republicans this acceptance is even worse, for it all but criminalizes the republican struggles in the Jails; and it accepts what the Brits have attempted to claim all along, that the last thirty odd years of violence was an internal matter within the north and had nothing to do with the completion of the Irish national revolution.
On the former, many of the same judges who sat on the bench during the war will continue to sit there, many of the same police officers who sent republicans to jail by fair means or foul remain within the PSNI, thus if republicans accept these institutions and accept there serving personnel, they are all but accepting that volunteers were criminals who had received their sentence under ‘due process of the law’.
They will also be accepting and indeed supporting the jailing of young volunteers from the CIRA, who are doing no more than what previous generations of republicans have done, thus no republican has any right to felon set them, argue against them politically yes, but felon set, no.
Who I wonder will be the first shinner to put on the uniform of the crown and become minister of prisons. From such small steps massive betrayals come, which is what was intended when the peace processes in the north and Palestine were set in motion.
To put it bluntly no Irish Republican would or could accept the role of the British State’s Bantu government, so vote wisely comrades.
Mickhall
I am a bit lost, I dont know what you are referring to. I cannot see anywhere that I said policing is not a relevant issue. Can you direct me to my ‘silly’ comments please
Regards
for the last two or three years you and your ilk have been assuring everyone, especially your gullible, idiotic followers that accepting the psni would never happen
JC,
You’re completely wrong there. Personally I do not think that SF’s position on policing up until now has been reasonable, they should have supported it when the SDLP did (and I doubt that any other concessions they’ve “won” since then are material improvements, from their perspective, on the conditions that the SDLP backed the police on). But Henry94 has always been a progressive voice and reading his contributions over the past few years I certainly never got the impression that support for the police was a closed door for him.
Henry94, Pat McL, and CG are quite clearly not the same poster, this is self evident; if you can’t see that I suggest you get your head seen two, or at least compare and contrast the sometimes yawning gaps in opinion between the three. The latter two are the ones to watch in the policing debate. There are only two possible outcomes – either opposition to the SF leadership, or some furious backpedalling. Pat McL sounds to me like the equivalent of a DUP hardliner who refuses to accept that things are changing and that we have to accept unpleasant things to move on. SF will have their hardest job selling policing to his ilk.
I note that the SF statement reaffirms “Total opposition to any involvement by British Security Service/MI5 in civic policing”. I thought it was telling that the SF leadership appeared to suggest that this should be adopted as the position of the party, and have not claimed that it is a concession that they’ve won from the governments. There is no way the Brits are going to hand over the security of their state to a devolved government in NI, period. I get the impression that SF are adopting a position of conscentious objector on that issue.
gerry :
Its not all that long ago we had diplock courts, many people did ten or twenty years for MEMBERSHIP of an illegal organisation, while others of loyalist backgrounds were treated much more leniently.
I have a hard time accepting this. Probably about the most significant issue would be the serious collusion that took place. That aside, I can see no evidence that loyalists specifically were treated leniently – rather than calling it lenience, I’d say that the judges erred on the side of caution in the majority of cases, especially for diplock courts. Why was the case against Gerry Adams for IRA membership thrown out ? Why was Martin McGuinness never prosecuted for same ?
Police officers and judges literally risked their lives putting people like Johnny Adair away, and please note that it was SF along with the loyalists who insisted on releasing those extremely dangerous and unreformed loyalists back into the world again, insisting that it was an essential precursor to a deal. I note that the only formal applications to actually stop early releases were issued against loyalists, not republicans. I also note that today the Assets Recovery Agency (part of the criminal justice system) seems to spend most of it’s time going after loyalists. Indeed DUP MPs have complained on behalf of loyalist paramilitaries about this in the House of Commons.
SF have now, (or soon will at their next meeting) signalled that they WILL FULLY RECOGNISE THE STATE.
Gerry, what people like you need to understand is that the people of Ireland recognize the state, and this was confirmed in the referendum in 1998. Doesn’t that trump SF’s internal policy ? Surely you can’t be saying that SF’s policy should stand at odds with the Irish people ?
Miss Fitz
Apologies, it was 50%+ for some reason when typing I must have had you on my mind, in any case you are not prone to making silly comments, far from it.
Happy new year.
As a republican ex-prisoner who spent over a decade and a half in the H-Blocks I am not surprised at this treachourous move by the MI5 section of the Provisional Republican Movement. After all Adams and his clique allowed six of our boys to die on hunger strike after he over ruled a decision, for personal and selfish reasons, by our Staff in the prison to accept an offer just before Joe McDonnell died. If this man is capable of allowing this to happen he is capable of anythng. But then perhaps this is what the Brits had over Adams in guaranteeing his co-operation. When will all the sinn fein sheep wise up to his clique?
Moderate unionists know that we need to move towards a stable all-Ireland economy or we will always play second place to SE England in a UK context. Those of us who want constitutional change know that the Brits will never leave if that would mean having chaos on their backdoor.
Northern stability is in everybody’s interest and moreover it’s what the punters voted for. Let’s get on with it.
Miss Fitz.
Whether you like it or not luv this decision which I welcome, will put Sinn Fein the political party in the DUP firing line. It will be used by the DUP and others to ensure Mr Adams commitment to his promises are kept.After all Mr Adams has told the Governments and the parties that he represents Republicans. That is why he is negotiating these issues. Any Fudge now or in the future will play right into Robinsons hands.Now lets try again.
Which bit of the Adams commitment do you not understand and I will do my best to explain it in simple terms.
Adams quote” Actively encourage everyone in the community to co-operate fully with the police services in tackling crime in all areas and actively supporting all the criminal justice institutions
Very simple really. A very big stick for the DUP to beat Sinn Fein with at every opportunity.
This translated means any Inquiries like the Smithwick inquiry in the south will expect and demand Sinn Fein co-operation.The present police inquiry into the McCartney murder will naturally want to speak to Mr Adams he has admitted to IRA involvement in this attack,the police will now quite rightly expect this public figure to ” Help” the police with their inquiries. That is the reality of his committment.
or do you not agree Miss Fitz?
Given your involvement with the PSNI Miss Fitz surely you accept and understand the point being made by Mr Adams. It is a commitment to become fully involved in the British criminal justice system.You do agree with Mr Adams that Republicans/Nationalist must now co-operate with the police and the courts dont you?
Mr Adams commitment again for the slow:
Adams quote” Actively encourage everyone in the community to co-operate fully with the police services in tackling crime in all areas and actively supporting all the criminal justice institutions
Pretty clear to me.
Ding Ding
Martin
Martin, you ding a ling
I dont have any problem undertanding this. The bit you dont seem to undertand is the reality of life and normal human emotions.
Yes, Sinn Fein will from this day forth be eexpected to conform to the rule of Law and be accountable. However, it is not uno voce. If individuals commit crimes, that is an individual matter. Sinn Fein once accepting the rule of law commit to disengagement from any form of organised crime.
If in the future individuals who happen to be members of SF are involved in crime, they will be held accountable to the authorities. Martin, you have to stop imagining that there is one central point of rule within SF and that everyone kowtows to it.
Robert McCartney was killed in a bar brawl by men who may or may not have been members of SF. This differs significantly to an organised, pre meditated murder, and the admission of guilt must be left to either the individuals concerned, witnesses or an evidentiary case.
My wish for the future is not one where anyone has a big stick to beat people up with. I hope that this is the first transformative step to normal governance and an acceptance that two tribes can share a peice of land without suspicion, dominance or violence.
Your incessant point scoring is emblematic of the problems people create to sabotage this infant deocratic babe
mickhall
They will also be accepting and indeed supporting the jailing of young volunteers from the CIRA, who are doing no more than what previous generations of republicans have done, thus no republican has any right to felon set them, argue against them politically yes, but felon set, no.
Stripping out the emotive language what you propose is that a CIRA volunteer can shoot me in the head or bomb my local furniture shop but I can only “argue against them politically”?
That hardly seems fair. Let’s face it they have lost all the arguments already.
Mickhall
All of this needs to be examined with a copy of a history book open beside you. The conditions are different to those that prompted the Irish Civil War, but the perceived betrayal from the principles of the Sinn Fein and the split leading to the formation of Fianna Fail is the same.
During those early turbulent years, we saw death, brutality, mass hunger strike and a breakdown in the ideals of the sides.
To date, the Republican leadership have kept a tight rein on things, and have affected some form of unity. The next 16 weeks will tell what the next chapter is to be.
Henry,
I don’t really see how you can argue with them if they have shot you in the head, but hey you rusty riffles have the British state behind you these days, what do i know.
Happy new year
I don’t really see how you can argue with them if they have shot you in the head
I’d still make more sense.
Happy New Year to you too.
Just a thought, if a somewhat mischief making one, when the Ard Fheis takes place, there will in all probability be senior IRA men on the platform, if the vote goes Adams way, will he then have to make a citizens arrest, or can we expect the IRA to be fully dissolved before the said conference.
For I cannot see how the shinners can support and help implement the law of the State-let, if they continue to run with the hounds who belong to an illegal organization. Or is there to be one law for senior shinners and one for the rest of the community, or is a new law covering this on the way?
Q. What’s worse than being an IRA apologist?
A. A Sinn Fein apologist.
Ms Fitz
For the many tribes to live on this piece of land in peace we need a police service which is not run by a unaccountable and undemocratic institution such as MI5.
The British state that you admire so much is not impartial, its past and present is soaked in the blood of innocents and it has no right to pretend to play the fair administrator here.
Sinn Fein has always rallied against state murder and state terrorism, I find it repugnant that former revolutionaries should now find excuses to allow the British murder machine free reign, in this part of the world.
mickhall
I assume the Ard Fheis will be in Dublin.
Or is there to be one law for senior shinners and one for the rest of the community
Nothing coming out of any Ard Fheis places any obligation whatsoever on any individual citizen. The SDLP can’t tell their members to what extent they should help the police and as you probably know some of them are quite selective about it.
If Sinn Fein a particular way it doesn’t change anything for an individual who doesn’t trust the PSNI.
It is for the PSNI to prove themselves to the people not the other way around.
No Miss Fitz you are being Naive.
Sinn Fein is not a normal political Party and have spent the last twenty years representing Republicans in political discussions and IRA ceasefire arrangements.
It will not be acceptable to to the DUP to say each man is an individual, that is not the same game that has been in town for the last twenty years . The DUP are not playing to that very simplistic viewpoint .
May I remind you. It was the DUP many weeks prior to me naming Martin McGuinness has an Agent who themselves requested the Government to confirm his status in parliament.The DUP will attack Sinn Fein at every opportunity.
The leadership and membership of Sinn Fein have themselves been involved in many of the crimes being investigated TODAY either by HET or C2. I am sure you accept the police have every right to revisit these individuals to request their co operation in light of Mr Adams public comittment to the criminal justice system.And I hope given your background you would encourage them to do so.
To give two examples from a hundred.
Adams has already admitted IRA involvement in the McCartney murder. He knows who was involved. He as the leader of Sinn Fein is now required to demonstrate leadership to his fellow party members.By naming names and making it very clear that the intimidation the police have reported upon by Sinn Fein members stops.That needs to be done public way.
Second.
Mr McGuinness. The police are at this moment investigating the human bombs. Martin McGuinness has the DUP related in the commons was involved in the planning and direction of these attacks. A former Agent who was arrested recently made a statement implicating McGuinness in these attacks.I understand their is other evidence of his involvement.
He will now be required to co-operate with the police? After all the man who is appointed Sinn Fein Chief negotiator will WANT TO DEMONSTRATE HIS NEW COMITTMENT, in a similar way he asked those involved in the Bobby Storey attack to trust the British criminal justice system..
What will not be allowed by the DUP I would suggest is a ” Gerry kelly” take on the situation . Gerry Kelly`s interview with Mr Thompson a few weeks ago is repeated below.
1.The comment on no inquires is based on the following interview with Gerry Kelly:
Noel Thompson: Will you, if and when you come on board policing, will you say we don’t want to investigate anything that has been before…
Gerry Kelly: Yes. Yes.
Noel Thompson: …this is a new beginning?
Gerry Kelly: I have said it before a new beginning is a new beginning
I presume you do not agree with kelly? this commmitment by Sinn Fein is not conditional. Support for the criminal justice system. It is a FULL COMITTMENT .
Fudge this and it will come apart very quickly from the seams. A full comittment means you deal with the reality of the situation and you do not pick and choose elements you like and discard those you do not.
Ding Ding
Martin
‘but hey you rusty riffles have the British state behind you these days, what do i know.’
Jesus mick you don’t do irony, questioning the current the status of CIRA members and prisoners and using the term rusty rifles.
Dont think so Martin. Would have to spend a bit more time looking at the terms of the GFA and SAA and I am leaving the house.
I just want to make one comment. Your comments state that Gerry Adams ‘knows’ who was involved in the McCartney killing. As far as i know from press reports he was not present and as such does not constitute a material eye witness. His statements will be considered hear say, and I am pretty sure that makes them inadmissable as evidence.
Just running up breathlessly shouting ‘I Know who dunnit’ is not what will stand in Court.
the term rusty rifles is suitable for the new sticks surely? Aren’t we all sticks now?
Miss Fitz.
Maybe you can deal with the substance on your return.
quote”Dont think so Martin. Would have to spend a bit more time looking at the terms of the GFA and SAA and I am leaving the house.
What is it your unsure of? Sinn Fein represented itself as the party who could deliver both the Republican community and the IRA to the peace process. To suggest otherwise is gross naivety.
quote”I just want to make one comment. Your comments state that Gerry Adams ‘knows’ who was involved in the McCartney killing. As far as i know from press reports he was not present and as such does not constitute a material eye witness. His statements will be considered hear say, and I am pretty sure that makes them inadmissable as evidence.
You are wrong.Any information that he collected from his admitted inquiries into these matters and or discussions with the families is not priviliged and would be required to be delivererd to the police. The Familiy will know the extent of their discussions with Mr Adams and THEY will be in a position to advise the the police has to the extent or otherwise of his knowledge . The family have already indicated that Adams knows the Identities of those involved in both the murder and the subsequent forensic clean up by Republicans of the crime scene.
The family have themselves suggested this is a test case for Mr Adams to demonstrate his new found belief in the criminal justice system.
Talk is cheap, actions demonstrate much, much more Miss Fitz.
Once more I invite you to make it clear that you believe Mr Adams and other Republicans should now comply with his and Sinn Feins public comittment to the British criminal justice system? Yes or No?
Hope your shopping goes well.
Ding Ding
Martin
As a republican ex-prisoner who spent over a decade ..
No you’re not. Not without a name.
‘the term rusty rifles is suitable for the new sticks surely’
It was used as a term of abuse for the Officials at a time when they possessed weapons and chose not to use them. Subsequently i would imagine it refers now to those who again possess weapons but choose not to use them. Therefore it applies to a number of groups, including the original Officials who never decommissioned, ask the current leader of the ILP on that one.
Pat.
It applies to Fianna Fail also.
Martin
“Once you accept the right of the State the right to arrest and put before a court its citzens, you have accepted the State in its entirety”
Says who……………..
It’s a non sequiter
The ‘right to arrest’ depends primarily on the State availability to use sufficient force to affect an arrest. It bears no relevence to the arrestees ‘acceptance of the State’. IRA volunteers recognition of the courts in no way validated the State – in many cases it lead to them being released to continue the ‘struggle’.
The State of NI ‘failed’ when nationalists were sufficiently strong to challenge the strength of the State.
But these are all minor ‘nit picking’ matters based on semantics. Who cares what a politican said (10,5,1) year ago. In 1974 Ian Paisley said he’s “never talk to the SDLP”!!!
The goal of nationalist politicans is to achieve a United Ireland. How this is brought about depends on politicans employing successful tactics.
Nationalists are fully aware that the ‘policing issue’is part of a process that leads inextricably towards a United Ireland.
Unionists continue to regard each issue as ‘the event’, whereas nationalists understand the concept of process ie, ‘progressing from one state to another’(OED). McCartney and Allister know the score.
As I stated in a earlier post; the issue of MI5 is a red herring. Think of an organisation run by Ding Ding!
Naturally nationalists fear that MI5 will continue its mission of trying to destroy the peace process and murder innocent catholics. But HOW SUCCESSFUL HAVE THEY BEEN TO DATE! Ding Ding couldn’t succeed when they had:
A Protestant Government
A Protestant Police Force
A Protestant Milita
Protestant Paramilitaries
and they were still beaten!
“We all know about torture, shoot-to-kill policies, collusion with loyalist killer gangs. We know what happened to solicitors Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson. But for every high-profile victim, there are countless others who suffered at the hands of the RUC, names forgotten, dates vague, shadowy images of children’s heads burst open by plastic bullets, and mourners at funerals brutalised, coffins hitting the street while people cowered from the batons. I don’t know of one officer who has ever served a day’s imprisonment, who has ever lost a day’s pay, through an over-zealous interpretation of the application of law and order.”
Thanks to the current leadership of Sinn Fein no member of of the RUC / PSNI will stand trial for their human rights abuses.
Then again I don’t expect the middle class liberals, apologists for state terrorism to have any problems with their taxes paying the wages of state torturers and state terrorists in new uniforms.