Question Time comes to Belfast again. Let’s hope the panel can talk about something other than just Northern Ireland. They are: Peter Hain, Lord Trimble, Mark Durkan, Martin McGuinness and Jeffrey Donaldson. Our Secretary of State has some work to do to push his profile a bit higher in the race for the DPM’s job.
I share many of the concerns of Andy Pollak, whose recent post ‘My Response to the Slugger Begrudgers’ zeroed in on the ‘relentless flow of negativity’ of some Slugger commentators. Pollak’s post was largely concerned with the medium of the blog. Indeed, I think the anonymity of the online world encourages extreme discourse and allows [...] read our review »
The whole show came accross as above martins head.
I missed a lot of it as I was in and out of the room doing other things. I thought that Hain and Durkan came across well, MM seemed confused and stumbling, the unionists seemed lost – trimble better than donaldson who is clearly being assimilated to DUP-religio-nut-speak.
Sevenmagpies
“We wouldn’t get to elect MPs to Westminster.”
Is that it?
Durkan – superb
McGuinness – as a previous poster said, looked as if a lot of it was over his head – Dimbleby did well in puncturing some of his “Let me tell you about the time I met George Bush”-style waffling.
Trimble – better than usual but has a tendency to get bogged down in dry legalistic “I’ll have you know I’m actually a qualified barrister”-style analysis that bores the average(and not so average) viewer senseless.
Hain – pretty good – did well in highlighting and condemning the outrageous antics of Donaldson.
Donaldson – utterly obnoxious. Biggoted, self-satisfied little twerp who (again as a previous poster pointed out) was just about able to parrot a bilious “discriminating against homosexuals is part of my religion”-style tract and very little else.
Billy
“Is that it?”
You were thinking of something else?
Did no-one notice Hain’s discomfort at the unionist backing for the invasion of Iraq, particularly Trimble’s confident 19th Century colonialism? ‘Up to the British to enforce what’s right on the wogs’ doesn’t begin to describe it. Funniest part of the programme for me.
sevenmagpies,
The lack of a vote in Dublin elections has nothing to do with who I am. Your attempt to answer Billy’s question simply doesn’t make sense to anyone confident of their own identity.
It does however make a great deal of sense in the context of a NI unionist.
lib,
“Your attempt to answer Billy’s question simply doesn’t make sense to anyone confident of their own identity.”
That’s weird, I thought the question was if northern ireland was a colony, what would change.
I answered it: we wouldn’t get to vote in westminster elections.
If you have another answer, feel free to present that, or you can just stick to blindly proclaiming that anyone who doesn’t agree with your one true faith must be a unionist.
Sevenmagpies
“You were thinking of something else?”
Er, yes. I mean, what’s the opposite of a colonial people? I would say, a sovereign people.
Are NI unionists in any sense a sovereign people? (You might argue that neither are nationalists – but at least they WANT to be. It’s the not-even-wanting-to-be-sovereign that is the hallmark of the colonial mindset.)
You’ll forgive me if I’m unimpressed by our token team and their meaningless role at Westminster.
I think the QT format suited Trimble and Durkan the best, although none of the others took any big hits.
I had a sense of deja vu when Trimble huffed and puff at the way in which the Sexual Orientation Regulations (SOR) were being introduced whilst not actually disagreeing with their content. (Now where have we seen that before?) Also, is this an official UUP position? (Perhaps Michael Shilliday et al could enlighten us.) There are plenty of very sound arguments against the SOR, of which Trimble, as a peer, would have been informed by the Lawyers Christian Fellowship but which Lord Turtle chose to ignore.
Jeffrey was sounder on the SOR but I felt that his justifiable anger didn’t really do him or his point justice. It’s easy for critics to be unfairly dismissed as bigots and I fear Jeffrey didn’t protect himself from the charge as well as he might have done.
Jeffrey did better when discussion moved to the DUP’s dealing with Sinn Fein. He declared that the DUP would not be rushed into any deal, a wise position even if it still falls short of what refuseniks like me would want. Trimble, on the other hand, chided Paisley for dragging his feet. It seems to be UUP policy to bring the Shinners back into power without striking the hardest bargain possible. Not a vote winner, I suggest.
I thought our arrogant pro-consul got off lightly. People talk about bread-and-butter issues being more important than the usual stand-offs, yet the programme ignored things like water charge and rates reform to dawdle on Russia and Trident.
Sevenmagpies
“That’s weird, I thought the question was if northern ireland was a colony, what would change. I answered it: we wouldn’t get to vote in westminster elections.”
Then I suppose the next question is: what difference would that make?
Answer: the only difference would be that the fantasy that we live in a democracy would be dispelled. They would be faced with the terrible realisation that IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. Of course the loss of the fantasy would only be of significance to those who presently entertain it – by which I mean those who support the status quo in which we are not a sovereign people. (ie colonials)
Billy,
“Are NI unionists in any sense a sovereign people?”
Presumably they see themselves as part of a sovereign UK. They identify with that culture, are happy with that government, that parliament they send representatives to, the house where even local lords get to sit, they even like the monarchy or whatever. Why would they want to be a ‘sovereign’ slightly north east part of ireland?
“You’ll forgive me if I’m unimpressed by our token team and their meaningless role at Westminster.”
Absolutely, I’m not much impressed by politics at all at present. It’s not like voting actually gets anything done anywhere, is it? Politics seems to consist merely of presenting a plausible world view to garner votes, then doing pretty much whatever you want for a few years. As long as you don’t actively piss off a solid chunk of voters, you’re free to rule almost entirely without impediment or oversight.
Seven magpies
Where do you stand on an elected upper house?
Billy
“the fantasy that we live in a democracy would be dispelled”
I think the real fantasy here is believing that being a “sovereign people” will magically mean that you get a say in whether or not your country goes to war or helps the US outsource torture or sells your genes to a multinational corporation.
Slug,
“Where do you stand on an elected upper house?”
Possibly less worse than the current system?
That said I’m all in favour of choosing people for upper house duty entirely at random. Run it in shadow form for a while, see if it would make any difference to the passage of legislation.
The question was if sevenmagpies were to be a colonial how would he be different. Surely that implies a question about his identity rather than about his voting rights, but maybe I’m merely being tediously pedantic. Something I associate with the unionists on this site – AAAGGGHHH!
Maybe we could rephrase the question? How would the unionist identity be different if it wasn’t a colonial identity?
Sevenmagpies
“Presumably they see themselves as part of a sovereign UK.”
Of course they do – just as Falklanders and Gibraltarians see their sovereignty as residing in Britain. Personally though, I don’t think that’s where the issue lies. To my mind, the issue is one of agency. No-one in NI has any real agency to do anything about the issues that affect them. (And no, I don’t accept that tortuous tautology that abdication of sovereignty is itself a sovereign act.)
We can lobby our colonial satraps but that’s it. Now, nationalists have always been outraged and insulted by this state of affairs – unionists on the other hand seem not to have any principled objection. Sure, they’ll object to water rates, RPA, academic selection etc – ie specific issues – but they have no principled objection to the sheer insult of being ruled by an imperial proconsul in the first place.
If that’s not a colonial mindset, I don’t know what is.
(The British government has finally come to understand this, hence the new strategy of making NI’s colonial experience an increasingly painful one for the pro-colonial population.)
“They identify with that culture, are happy with that government, that parliament they send representatives to, the house where even local lords get to sit, they even like the monarchy or whatever.”
I agree – none of which disproves the argument that we are talking about a colonial people with a deeply colonial mindset. In fact, it’s more like evidence of it.
“Why would they want to be a ‘sovereign’ slightly north east part of ireland?”
The ideal is that they would choose to take up the share of Irish sovereignty that is their birthright. Maybe one day….
“I’m not much impressed by politics at all at present. It’s not like voting actually gets anything done anywhere, is it?”
You’re missing the point – yes, the performance of our politicians has been lamentable, but even if it was world class, it wouldn’t make a jot of difference. The political structure we live in won’t allow it. WE ARE A COLONY!!! And worst of all, a majority here are determined defend the status quo NO MATTER HOW BAD THINGS GET!!!
Which in turn is why we have such an unimpressive and unintelligent political class. Ours is politics without the possibility of power. It’s elections without institutions. It’s representation without agency. OF COURSE nobody worth a damn wants anything to do with politics. Politics simply isn’t where the power is in our society BECAUSE WE ARE A COLONY!!!
Now it seems to me that there is very little that’s wrong here that can’t be traced back to that ever-present reality. Therefore I’m against it. Many others are for it. So it goes.
Now you tell me – does having two percent of MPs at Westminster change the central reality of our political existence?
Or is it just a fig leaf for so the colonials can pretend – contrary to every observable feature of this state – that we’re not a colony at all, but we are in fact (all together now) an “integral part of the United Kingdom”? (!!!!!!!!)
Sevenmagpies
“I think the real fantasy here is believing that being a “sovereign people†will magically mean that you get a say in whether or not your country goes to war or helps the US outsource torture or sells your genes to a multinational corporation.”
Yes it does – it means exactly that. You get to make a choice. Of course that doesn’t mean you’ll make the right choice, or that you’ll personally agree with the choice that is made, nor does it mean there won’t be consequences for the choices you do make. But it does mean you get to have your own debates and your own disagreements and that the decision – though it will of course be influenced by all sorts of factors outside your control – will be your own.
When you make your own decisions, you get the possibility that a culture of responsibility can flower. This in turn can have a transformative effect on society, the economy, law and order and so on. I think many of our ills in NI today stem from responsibility for our wellbeing and our future residing elsewhere, and the corrosive cultural effect this has had. Would you disagree?
And if you agree, surely you would be open to the suggestion that our colonial set-up is a huge part of the problem?
Billy,
“I agree – none of which disproves the argument that we are talking about a colonial people with a deeply colonial mindset. In fact, it’s more like evidence of it.”
Not if that really is their identity. They really are exactly those people they were before their ancestors took a boat trip.
“The ideal is that they would choose to take up the share of Irish sovereignty that is their birthright. Maybe one day….”
So in order to avoid having a ‘colonial mindset’ they have to slavishly accept the identity you want to impose on them instead? How does that work again?
“Now you tell me – does having two percent of MPs at Westminster change the central reality of our political existence?”
Does living in bolton make any difference to the central reality of a bolton resident’s political existence?
I say it doesn’t, I say those big decisions are always made elsewhere.
lib,
“Surely that implies a question about his identity rather than about his voting rights, but maybe I’m merely being tediously pedantic”
Perhaps I have merely grown out of tediously obssessing about random patches of dirt and decided to look instead to what unites us all rather than focusing on imaginary reasons to divide humanity.
Billy,
“You get to make a choice”
No, you misunderstand, the point I’m making is that you don’t get to make a choice at all. You just want to comfort yourself with the illusion that the british public decided to go to war, or the irish public decided to let america ship its troops and torture victims through shannon.
“I think many of our ills in NI today stem from responsibility for our wellbeing and our future residing elsewhere, and the corrosive cultural effect this has had. Would you disagree?”
What ills do we have in NI that aren’t replicated all over the world? I think modern capitalist society has had exactly the same ‘corrosive cultural effect’ everywhere, and created almost identical ‘someone else is responsible’ mindset.
Sevenmagpies
“Not if that really is their identity. They really are exactly those people they were before their ancestors took a boat trip.”
But I’m not disputing that it IS their identity. I’m simply describing the NATURE of that identity – ie that it’s a textbook colonial one. It’s up to you whether you think having a colonial identity or mindset is a good thing. I’m not necessarily implying a judgement – but the underlying reality is undeniable.
“So in order to avoid having a ‘colonial mindset’ they have to slavishly accept the identity you want to impose on them instead? How does that work again?”
Actually I talked about an ideal in which they would make a choice. That choice as I see it is to make common cause with the people with whom they share this patch of earth. I think that sovereignty over this place and the people who live here should reside with we, the people who live here. I acknowledge that there are others who do not agree – who think OUR sovereignty should reside overseas. I simply observe the colonial nature of this mindset. I honestly do not see how a denial of this can be long sustained. (Though your tactic of misrepresentation and use of pejorative adjectives like “slavishly” is a typical method of frustration, in lieu of actual argument.)
“Does living in bolton make any difference to the central reality of a bolton resident’s political existence?”
Any difference from what? Your question doesn’t make any sense.
“I say it doesn’t, I say those big decisions are always made elsewhere.”
Yes but the MP (or MPs) for Bolton are probably part of that decision-making process. People in Bolton have the chance to choose between candidates from the rival parties of government. Party politics means that whether, say, Labour, wins in Bolton has an effect on whether they can form the next government. Hence the government has a stake in Bolton and Bolton has a stake in the government. That’s how parliamentary democracy is supposed to work. None of which applies to Northern Ireland. What difference would it make if Arlene Foster took FST next time out? In every meaningful sense, Northern Ireland is outside the structure of UK governance. Just like a colony would be.
(The absence of significant Conservative, Labour or LibDem parties here, and the dominance of narrow, provincial parties is proof also that for all protestations of “Britishness”, the unionist population here has no appetite to be part of the UK mainstream. Look how far Bob McCartney has got after a lifetime of pushing integration. See? Colonialism writ large.)
“Perhaps I have merely grown out of tediously obssessing about random patches of dirt and decided to look instead to what unites us all rather than focusing on imaginary reasons to divide humanity.”
So where do you stand on the Irish border? Seriously, it’s one thing to claim to be interested in what unites us, but it sounds like you’re only interested in unity within the context of division.
I support the reunification of Ireland because I believe that the case for an all-Ireland state as the most likely to deliver a vastly superior political, economic, social and psychological future for my children and all the children of Ireland is unanswerable. I do not think the status quo is good enough. I want better for my children, and I do not believe any other constitutional alternative can deliver it.
You may disagree with that analysis, but I hope it’s more than “tediously obsessing about random patches of dirt”.
“No, you misunderstand, the point I’m making is that you don’t get to make a choice at all.”
I agree that there are limits to sovereignty, and those limits are to do with realpolitik. However, there are many things that people CAN make their own decisions on – if you look at the Irish economy or education system you’ll see that. Of course there are things that are beyond the control of the population, and indeed the government – but that doesn’t mean there is NOTHING the people can take agency over. My point is that here in NI, there really is NOTHING we can do about anything. We can’t make a difference through the ballot box. We can’t make a difference through parliamentary horse trading. We can’t make a difference through internal party activism. We can lobby our betters and ask for their generosity. That’s it.
“What ills do we have in NI that aren’t replicated all over the world? I think modern capitalist society has had exactly the same ‘corrosive cultural effect’ everywhere, and created almost identical ‘someone else is responsible’ mindset.”
In Northern Ireland we do not have even the potential, however theoretical, to do anything about it. Hence we have, for example, very weak and conservative trade unions. Hence we have much lower average wages than south of the border or across the water. We don’t think we deserve anything better. Classic colonial self-loathing.
Kensei-
“I don’t agree. Martin did well, made some decent points, came across as reasonable and dealt with some inevitable hostility in the crowd. My only disappointment was him not nailing Durkan when he started on devolution of justice powers – if the SDLP hadn’t have jumped too soon and both Nationalist parties were resolute for it, then things would be much easier.
In fairness to Durkan, he was alright. It was more like a score draw, and who “won†probably depends on your politics.”
Are you the same Kensei who says you don’t have any particular allegiance to Sinn Féin, and would quite happily support the SDLP if they gave you reason to? Yeah right- you’re quite clearly a dyed-in-the-wool SFer. There’s no problem with that, but you constantly lambast the SDLP as if they are driving you away from supporting them- face it, there is no chance of you ever voting SDLP in the future, even if Alex Attwood dyed his hair green, white and orange and went round West Belfast shouting ‘tiocfaidh ár lá’ at the peelers. At least admit it.
Regardless of who one supports, it was a bad performance by MMcG’s standards- sticking up for him or others in SF at every given opportunity regardless of the facts just undermines any claims you have about being an non-aligned nationalist.
Billy,
Thanks for the detailed response and I’m sure this has some vague relation to the topic we’re supposed to be discussing. Say, did someone maybe mention “colonialism” on question time?
“I’m not necessarily implying a judgement – but the underlying reality is undeniable.”
Haven’t you just suggested that everything bad about northern ireland is caused by this ‘colonial mindset’?
You clearly presuppose that identity is a function of randomly chosen patches of earth rather than people. You simply build an imaginary community and then demand that people join it or get dismissed as “colonial”. Why can’t people make common cause with everyone on these islands? Why impose such rigid limitations on identity?
“Though your tactic of misrepresentation and use of pejorative adjectives like “slavishly†is a typical method of frustration, in lieu of actual argument.”
I recall that your suggestion was that they simply must accept that they have a colonial mindset, or side with you and become sovereign irelanders. You have already decided that their whole mindset is wrong and they can’t possibly be an outlying poorly served region of the UK. Where’s the choice there? where’s your argument?
“In every meaningful sense, Northern Ireland is outside the structure of UK governance. Just like a colony would be.”
Again, you’re missing the point. Your influence on the structure of governance is an illusion whether you live in belfast, dublin or chelmsford. There really is nothing much that people can take agency over anywhere. Hospitals owned by holding companies in the cayman islands. Schools run by religious gurus. Trade unions beaten down by hard-case american strike breakers. Did anyone ask if the people of Ireland or the UK wanted to support an illegal war? Did we get less of a say in that?
“the unionist population here has no appetite to be part of the UK mainstream. Look how far Bob McCartney has got after a lifetime of pushing integration. See? Colonialism writ large.”
Perhaps thirty odd years of political violence have polarised attitudes and in a new peaceful dispensation people will be more inclined to slide back into typical left right politics. Although it’s mostly right, slightly less right these days.
“it sounds like you’re only interested in unity within the context of division”
I don’t know what that means.
“I support the reunification of Ireland because I believe that the case for an all-Ireland state as the most likely to deliver a vastly superior political, economic, social and psychological future for my children and all the children of Ireland is unanswerable. I do not think the status quo is good enough. I want better for my children, and I do not believe any other constitutional alternative can deliver it.”
I support the creation of a 32 county socialist republic as the first step to a socialist (let’s call it) uk, europe, world. I do not believe any other political alternative can deliver a better outcome. Given the widening gap between rich and poor in an already socially fragmented ireland I’m not sure why you are so convinced that alone represents a positive future. Why not something completely new and different?
“Classic colonial self-loathing”
But you wouldn’t dream of implying a judgment …
By your idea, perhaps Northern Ireland should become a sovereign nation in its own right? Decisions where they matter and all that. However, as a unionist living on the mainland I think that NI should remain part of the UK until the people living there decide otherwise. Same applies to Scotland, Gib, the Falklands and anywhere else.
Although, saying that, unionism on the mainland seems to be splitting apart from the inside.
MU
“By your idea, perhaps Northern Ireland should become a sovereign nation in its own right? Decisions where they matter and all that.”
No – because I don’t think that NI could work as a sovereign nation in its own right. I think it would be a disaster. On the contrary, I think an all-island state would be the optimum arrangement for everyone on this island. (And for everyone on your island too, for that matter.) Just my opinion, but there it is.
Now, I haven’t arrived at that conclusion as the outworking of some more general theory. It’s simply what I think would work, based on my observations of living a lifetime in Ireland, on both sides of the border. Where the Irish people are sovereign, society and politics and economics work – where the Irish people are not sovereign, society and politics and economics demonstrably do not work.
“However, as a unionist living on the mainland I think that NI should remain part of the UK until the people living there decide otherwise.”
As an Irish republican living in Ireland, I wholeheartedly agree. I am simply arguing that the time is right for the people living here to make that decision: to choose reunification; to choose to take our share of the sovereignty that is our birthright; to take our place within Irish democracy; to play a part in governing ourselves and shaping our own future; to make our own mistakes and to celebrate our own triumphs. To choose agency and dispense with colonial powerlessness.
Others will disagree. Fair enough – but let’s have the debate.
Let’s get the Assembly up and running again. The people of Gib or the Falklands wouldn’t tolerate being under Westminster for the amount of representation they would end up with, so why should Northern Ireland?
Sevenmagpies
“I support the creation of a 32 county socialist republic as the first step to a socialist (let’s call it) uk, europe, world. I do not believe any other political alternative can deliver a better outcome. Given the widening gap between rich and poor in an already socially fragmented ireland I’m not sure why you are so convinced that alone represents a positive future. Why not something completely new and different?”
I agree with Connolly’s analysis that we must first take control of our own destiny before we can create the kind of Ireland we want. Without the agency conferred by sovereignty, we cannot hope to affect meaningful change here.
I also agree with Connolly’s view (and one, interestingly, that the pre-Revolution Lenin subscribed to) that the only way real social advances could be made in Britain would be through the power of a good example in Ireland. Iraq has proven that Britain is still afflicted by a strain of imperial hubris. (Yes, I know almost half the population opposed the invasion BEFOREHAND.) Perhaps the reunification of Ireland might help Britain’s rehabilitation by providing an example of how the withdrawal of the British state can often be a good thing?
As for trying something new and completely different – how about an all-island Irish Republic based on the principles of the United Irishmen? That’s something that we have yet to try.
MU
“Let’s get the Assembly up and running again. The people of Gib or the Falklands wouldn’t tolerate being under Westminster for the amount of representation they would end up with, so why should Northern Ireland?”
Hear hear.
And if people there wish to unite themselves after that, that’s their affair. Same applies if they want to remain a part of my country.
“Are you the same Kensei who says you don’t have any particular allegiance to Sinn Féin, and would quite happily support the SDLP if they gave you reason to? Yeah right- you’re quite clearly a dyed-in-the-wool SFer.”
I believe I said Durkan was alright, and the choice would come down to your politics. Mine at the moment lean more toward SF. I am still concerned with the devolution of policing and justice powers and the SDLP have absolutely nothing to give there. If they hadn’t have jumped too soon, the request would irresistible, and Durkan having the cheek to say anything about it last night have me shouting at the screen. So that is one thing.
I am strongly for a United Ireland and I believe its achievement would be a wholly positive thing. The SDLP damaged themselves with the “post Nationalist” bollocks and they have work to do there to convince me of their bona fides. That’s another. Attacking SF instead of trying to bring together Nationalism is another, and I could go on. But if they get past that, it may be in the future their approach is more conductive to getting support for a UI. SF do have a problem pulling others in.
The SDLP have to do some of these things to get my shift position, set out a convincing vision, make better arguments and prove competence. It’s not just going to magically shift.
“There’s no problem with that, but you constantly lambast the SDLP as if they are driving you away from supporting them- face it, there is no chance of you ever voting SDLP in the future, even if Alex Attwood dyed his hair green, white and orange and went round West Belfast shouting ‘tiocfaidh ár lá’ at the peelers. At least admit it.”
I tell you what, get the Attwood to do that, and I 100% guarantee they’ll get my vote.
However, I merely vote that best matches my politics. The SDLP don’t at the moment and the SDLP supporter’s labeling of anyone who votes SF a traitor just makes me less inclined to give them my second preference. But in the future if they best match what I think is right they’d get my vote. If FF set up here and looked likely they’d best match, they’d get my vote. If I moved South, SF wouldn’t necessarily get my vote, because that is different circumstance. SF could move away from me in the future. Conditions may change and better arguments may come out. I’m not beholden to following SF whatever they do.
“Regardless of who one supports, it was a bad performance by MMcG’s standards- sticking up for him or others in SF at every given opportunity regardless of the facts just undermines any claims you have about being an non-aligned nationalist. ”
I actually thought he did alright. My opinion is as I said it. But that is probably down to me agreeing with what he said, particularly over policing, getting the Assembly running and the Iraq point I made earlier. So that would be “down to your politics” then.
Your big confusion, is that the SDLP should somehow have my vote by right. They don’t.
Mainland Unionist :
“As a unionist living on the mainland I think that NI should remain part of the UK until the people living there decide otherwise.”
75 % of the Irish people aleady voted in 1918 for a 32-county independent Ireland.
Unionism lost the debate – and the democratic election – already then.
The 6-county statelet created by Britain in the North-east of the country to serve Britain’s interests was anything but democratic.
Beware of “Perfidious Albion” – she only has permanent interests – not permanent friends.
The vast majority of British (read English) in Britain do not care a fig about the 6-counties, or the 26 or the 32. They have absolutely no clue about Ireland – north, south, east,west, green, orange, nationalist, unionist.
Why should they ? It’s not their country – but they are subsidising the entire show in the North-east 6 counties. Not indefinitely, that is for certain.
Would you pay your tenant’s rent – forever ?
Unionists and Nationalists need to start talking – alone – should have done so in already in 1912.
kenesei, i think you did more than say MMcG did alright, you positively said that he made a statement lambasting the british army and that he was the only one to do so, you went further and slightly attacked me for raising the point that mcg did not make the statement alone. You were clearly an apologist for mcguinness. if those are your politics why be ashamed of them, and try to disguise them as something else haven’t those days gone?
On the subject of the british army, one man in the audience claimed that army in iraq would have been better killing machines for their work here. treating the n. irish ppl like guinea pigs, and no one yet seems to have taken up on that not even you kinesei-sf supporter that you are.
as for mmcg, the former minister of education clearly shouting about the majority of sf, didn’t seem to understand the concept of dissent, didn’t even equate dissent with free speech until it was pointed out to him, couldn’t pronounce litvenensko,and spoke on and on about himself rather than answer a question and as pete said in a previous post is now a super super democrat with huge concept of equality. could he have performed any worse. all in all the whole thing was way over his head. i actually felt sorry for him.
“kenesei, i think you did more than say MMcG did alright, you positively said that he made a statement lambasting the british army and that he was the only one to do so, you went further and slightly attacked me for raising the point that mcg did not make the statement alone.”
I was, of course, referring to the panel rather than the audience. Durkan said nowt. And it was one dude, and while you might have found it more efective, I always find it less effective if it isn’t backed up, because it’s easy to paint people a certain way otherwise – and that happened for years.
“You were clearly an apologist for mcguinness.”
I was explaining my position.
“if those are your politics why be ashamed of them, and try to disguise them as something else haven’t those days gone?”
I’m not ashamed of them. But the point I was driving at, is that a lot of people seem to have it arse about face. I do not have my political beliefs because I vote SF. I vote SF because of my political beliefs. If SF were to move away from those, and it’s my no means a perfect fit anyway, then they wouldn’t get my vote. If the SDLP were to make some starting argument or move then maybe it’d be different. Equally maybe if a Southern Party came up or I moved South it would be different.
Some people like to come here and use soem kid of mindless stereotype. Merely trying to break that, and suggesting it’s probably not the way to go if you want to convince people to vote elsewhere.
“On the subject of the british army, one man in the audience claimed that army in iraq would have been better killing machines for their work here. treating the n. irish ppl like guinea pigs, and no one yet seems to have taken up on that not even you kinesei-sf supporter that you are.”
That isn’t what he said. He said that the British Army gained experience here that may have helped them in Iraq which is nothing to do with guinea pigs. That may be true, I don’t know. I would suggest the mess that Iraq is in and the fact that British soldiers are not primarily in the most dangerous areas in Iraq makes it hard to tell.
I would also say that everytime that the British media boast about winning hearts and minds here there is laughter from republican areas.
“as for mmcg, the former minister of education clearly shouting about the majority of sf, didn’t seem to understand the concept of dissent,”
The fact that the people of West Belfast vote overwhelmingly for Gerry Adams in a secret ballot was a fair point.
“didn’t even equate dissent with free speech until it was pointed out to him, couldn’t pronounce litvenensko,”
I can’t pronounce it, and I dislike that kind of sneering. Your point?
“and spoke on and on about himself rather than answer a question and as pete said in a previous post is now a super super democrat with huge concept of equality.”
Ah I see. He should have said fuck all the Prods. SF have been consistent on equality for many years.
“could he have performed any worse. all in all the whole thing was way over his head. i actually felt sorry for him.”
Maybe your politics are clouding your judgment?
maybe your politics are clouding your judgement.
and yours aren’t?
“maybe your politics are clouding your judgement.
and yours aren’t? ”
I think I’ve already my politics probably have an effect already.
McGuinness was awful, out of his depth especially on non-local affairs and perhaps a bit exposed / lost now that ‘the Army’ isn’t there any more.
Durkan was the best of a very average bunch though it was disaoppointing that Hain managed to come across well, no one on the panel really had the balls to even get near making him uncomfortable.