Election Fever in the air: But to which constituencies?!?
The two governments’ proposals today indicated the likelihood of an election in March 2007 for the new Assembly. However, as political anoraks will be aware, we are in an electoral limbo in the north of Ireland at present, as our 18 Assembly/ Westminster constituencies are in the process of being re-drawn. I understand that new legislation will be required to effect these changes, else our politicians will have one last fling with their current electorates. No mention of this was made in the document today (probably a case of counting your chicks….) but I’ve no doubt all the parties will want to know as soon as possible exactly which electoral battlefields they will be contesting in a matter of months.
kensei
proof that the nationalist %age is growing?
The last census. Look at the Protestant and Catholic age profile. Even if the magic 50%+1 doesn’t happen, Nationalism is still going in the short to medium term.
And yes, politics are religion aren’t the same thing but think we can both accept it has been a fair indicator thus far.
You are not seriously going to argue this one?
Just a wee word for some of the unionist commentators on this post such as JEB. I get a bit sick of being labelled a provie just because I have a legitimate nationalist aspiration. Kensei and Chris Donnelly have taken stick purely for having the temerity to stand up and say just because we are going to make the North more politically accountable then that doesnt mean a wand has been waved and we have turned into unionists. I dont have a bowler hat and I like Gaelic Football. I support the national football team before the Nortern one but dont hate the Northern one. Just fairly indifferent.The one thing I would hope everybody agrees on is that we are all thoroughly fed up with direct rule and the need for local accountability.To conclude I have never understood why unionists cannot see that Direct rule ministers hold them in complete contempt and would be shot of this place before the milk bottles go out in the morning if they thought they could..they will decide when that time will come and it will be sooner rather than later. Hopefully the new era will be entered into in as painless a manner as possible when the unionists realise that under PR they will be in perpetual government in the 32 counties..Theres an irony to stick in your pipe.
“And yes, politics are religion aren’t the same thing but think we can both accept it has been a fair indicator thus far.”
It is and has been a very very poor indicator.
“To conclude I have never understood why unionists cannot see that Direct rule ministers hold them in complete contempt”
What on earth makes you think we don’t realise this?
What on earth makes you think we don’t realise this?
Posted by bertie on Oct 16, 2006 @ 04:55 PM
If you realise it then why the irrational attraction to the UK ? Methinks deep down there is still that wee hankering for a pre-1968 one party statelet all over again.
It isn’t going to happen. The transitional phase of the ultimate change of sovereignty is now in progress. Get on the train and enjoy the ride and dont be getting off the train before it reaches its destination. You’ve bought the ticket so that would be a complete waste of money and believe it or not you might actually like what you see as you step blinking in the sunlight as the train arrives. (At Connolly Station!!!)
Kensei
“You STILL dont understand”
No YOU still dont understand.
There is absolutely nothing in my post that is asking Nationalists to be Unionists or good British citisens. There is nothing asking Nationalists to give up on a UI aspiration or indeed persuading unionists of the benefit of the same.
There is most certainly no hint in my post of wanting to return to Pre 1968 and no mention of bowler hats or Orange culture.
As bertie pointed out there is no mention from any unionist poster that Direct Rule is good for anybody.
I am simply saying that if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of unionists then you would have to become committed citisens of NI first.
I would define that as being more than “polite” when it comes to the NI football team and championing NI buisness and success in the business and cultural arenas.
Northern Ireland is as much about Irishness as it is Britishness and you can emphasise the former.
If you dont want that advice – fine – stick that in “your pipe” “give and take”.
If you dont want to be reasonable then you are guaranteed to bring about Re-partition and this time it will mean Ireland will be forever divided.
bertie,
Dont want to prick your bubble but get real!! Most Catholics (not all) are nationalists. Most Protestants are unioinist (Not all).
It is not a poor indicator but just a sad truism and you know it. Voting patterns map to the demographics pretty closely. Admittedly there are shades of grey on both sides but this seems to disappear when the hand is on the stubby pencil..
I know nothing of the sort. Voting patterns are not an indicator of nationalism or unionism. So may opinion polls have shown that the proportion of RCs that are Pro Union is high and those that don’t care either way even higher and that goes for SDLP voters too.
I don’t lose any sleep over the idea of an RC majority in NI because even if this unlikley thing was to occur, it would be a long way from being a nationalist one.
JEB
“I am simply saying that if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of unionists then you would have to become committed citisens of NI first”
Right on John you well know that Northern Ireland (sic)does not confer a specific citizenship on the residents of its six counties. Only nations can do that i think.
John..One other thing why do you think that re-partition is a stick with which you think you can beat nationalists?
And bertie..was in the pub yesterday and couldnt move at the bar for all of those pro union shinners demanding the continuation of partition……..
Bushmills
Accepting the Police and courts is not Nationalism losing. We have always wanted a policing service – we just weren’t pepared to accept the 95% Protestant partisan RUC which we have successfully dumped (as with the UDR/RIR).
Again, every society need a justice system. However, we now have 1 where it is illegal to have the royal crest in a NI court, there is no mandatory oath of allegiance to the Queen and the Union Jack can only be flown on certain days.
I am a constitutional nationalist and have never supported violence. However, working in a democratic manner within the system is the morally correct way to achieve our aims as well as being more effective.
Do you really believe that the UK govt are concerned about maintaining the Union or that they give a s**t about you and other Unionists?
The UK govt has been trying to get out of NI and cut their financial losses for years. The electorate in the UK don’t give a toss about NI and many would be glad to be rid of it.
I accept that the constitutional position of NI is unlikely to change in my lifetime but the clock is running.
Approx 45% of the population is Catholic and this is increasing – also a greater percentage of the younger population who are not yet eleigible to vote are Catholic. We now have almost 40% of the assembly from parties that support a UI and will act accordingly.
I think you’ll find that, as British govt subsidy decreases, the strength of the North South economic links/dependencies grow.
I don’t think in terms of winners and losers but it’s obvious to anyone that the “Union” with the UK is diminishing and the links with the RoI are getting stronger all the time.
“And bertie..was in the pub yesterday and couldnt move at the bar for all of those pro union shinners demanding the continuation of partition……..”
means nothing at all.
Bertie you really havent been well since that humour bypass operation. I was merely pointing out that as a member of the (loosely) catholic and broadly nationalist community i have found these pro union catholics to be a little thinner on the ground than you so bizarrely suggest. Amongst sinn fein voters i would suggest Nil as a good starting point and amongst SDLP I suppose there would be a few dont cares but probably wouldnt outnumber the spoiled votes. I will refrain from telling you where to place your alleged opinion polls as my Catholic education taught me a few manners……
giveandtake
come on now it wasn’t really funny now was it?
It’s not really the point as to whether they are pro Union, It is how many arn’t UI. The opnion polls are the only measure we have bar a border poll. I’ll make sure I leave lots of room for it
bertie
i think you are making a bit of an assumption there as to whether being anti union and pro UI are mutually exclusive or at the very least that one is not indicative of the other.
Can only speak for myself and say I am anti union and pro UI and would vote that way if there was a border poll tomorrow and btw I don’t vote sinn fein so perhaps that should make your assumptions a little bit more wobbly than before as if thats the way i think as a fairly mor sdlp voter ..do the maths mate!!!!!
giveandtake
I am saying that not being pro Union is not the same as being pro UI.
“btw I don’t vote sinn fein so perhaps that should make your assumptions a little bit more wobbly than before as if thats the way i think as a fairly mor sdlp voter ”
Why? I didn’t say that there were no SDLP voters who were pro UI and I wasn’t even assuming that you were RC
Apart from the opinion polls and the last border pole, there aren’t really any maths.
Although I’m more than prepared to count you as 1!
Billy
What a nasty little sectarian post your 8.11 was.
Substitute Catholic for Jew and Ireland for Israel or Catholic for Afrikanns and Ireland for RSA – or even Catholic for Aryan and Ireland for Third Reich and you will see what I mean.
And it is supposed to be the Orange Protestants who are the unreformed Bggts in this part of the world – LOL !
“It is and has been a very very poor indicator.2
Here is a bet, which I will pay if I’m wrong. On one axis we’ll plot the Catholic population of the six counties since 1960. On the second axis we will put the Nationalist vote tally in corfresponding elections.
£50 says there is a strong positive correlation.
“No YOU still dont understand.”
No I understand pefectly what you are saying. You do not get understand ME.
“There is absolutely nothing in my post that is asking Nationalists to be Unionists or good British citisens. There is nothing asking Nationalists to give up on a UI aspiration or indeed persuading unionists of the benefit of the same.
There is most certainly no hint in my post of wanting to return to Pre 1968 and no mention of bowler hats or Orange culture.”
No, there is. What you are saying is that Nationalists should be 100% pro-Northern Ireland, a state they don’t believe should exist, divides them from their fellow Irishmen and they would dearly like to see rid of. Even support the football team that plays under the Stormont Parliament flag and GSTQ as an anthem even ther Republic team represents your identity and aspirations. Fantasy.
As it happens there is a lot of places where the interests of Nationalism and the interests of “NI” are the same. There we will support it. There are also places where they don’t. We won’t then. Can I make this clear 100%? I AM NOT NORTHERN IRISH. It means nothing to me.
What do mean things to me is fair policing, health care, good economy etc. As we have accepted there is nothing we can do about the situation until we have a majority of people here wanting change, we’ll work to make this place better, because no one likes ot live in a shit hole, and while NI might mean nothing to me Belfast does, for example.
It does not stretch to supportinga football team that does not represent me. Happy to have a UI team taht recognises the only bit we have in common, though – some form of Irishness.
“I am simply saying that if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of unionists then you would have to become committed citisens of NI first.”
Not going to happen in the sense you mean. We will hope to convince you by arguing that you will be better off in a UI, that you and your culture will be respected, making a success of North-South bodies and by doing a good job in the ministerships. While, for example, being respectful of people’s support of the NI team, we aren’t going to pretend it represents us.
“Northern Ireland is as much about Irishness as it is Britishness and you can emphasise the former.”
It really isn’t any of a Nationalist type of Irishness. That is an oxymoron, because the state itself is divisive. None of NI’s symbols belong in any meaningful sense to Nationalism.
Nine county Ulster is a different matter.
“If you dont want that advice – fine – stick that in “your pipe” “give and take”.”
I have laid out my position. We’re not going to agree, because I ain’t a Unionist.
“If you dont want to be reasonable then you are guaranteed to bring about Re-partition and this time it will mean Ireland will be forever divided.
”
Nothing is forever dude. I am gald youa ccept NI is over there. It is an important first step in getting people thinking about the future.
“”It is and has been a very very poor indicator.2
Here is a bet, which I will pay if I’m wrong. On one axis we’ll plot the Catholic population of the six counties since 1960. On the second axis we will put the Nationalist vote tally in corfresponding elections. ”
I won’t ake the bet because it isn’t what I am talking about. There may be a corelation re religion and the parties people vote for but that does not mean that there is one for voting for a UI.
“I won’t ake the bet because it isn’t what I am talking about. There may be a corelation re religion and the parties people vote for but that does not mean that there is one for voting for a UI.”
If people were Unionist they would vote Unionist.
“Substitute Catholic for Jew and Ireland for Israel or Catholic for Afrikanns and Ireland for RSA – or even Catholic for Aryan and Ireland for Third Reich and you will see what I mean.”
Godwin’s Law.
I won’t even go into how inane your point is.
“If people were Unionist they would vote Unionist.”
Yes, but not necessarily of they were unionists, i.e. pro Union but not necessarily supporters of the Unionist parties.
i would not be at all surprised if the DUP get a nasty shock at the next election, Paisley has got away with his lies for far too long and now the Unionist people have realised that he is after nothing else but a legacy. The cracks have already started to show after only 3 days! In fighting was a serious factor in the downfall of the UUP and yet again we will see it will be a major factor of the downfall of the DUP… Jim Allister aint at all pleased!
kensei
“Here is a bet, which I will pay if I’m wrong. On one axis we’ll plot the Catholic population of the six counties since 1960. On the second axis we will put the Nationalist vote tally in corfresponding elections.
£50 says there is a strong positive correlation.”
If the Union is dependent upon a sectarian head count I wouldn’t consider it worth saving.
However you clearly understand nothing of what it means to be a Republican let alone an Irish one.
Ideals of egalitarianism for every man have been replaced with how a man chooses to worship whatever God he pays his allegiance to.
Convincing Protestants and winning their hearts and minds doesnt mean anything to you.
Its not about how a man thinks and chooses but on what ‘tradition’ he just happens to be borne into.
I have been trying to tease out of you and a few others a way in which the principles of mutual respect as per the Agreemnet (WHICH UNLESS YOU ARE A DISSIDENT SIGNED UP TO) can be lived up to by both parties.
You are clearly not interested.
As for your posts
“None of NI’s symbols belong in any meaningful sense to Nationalism.”
The Red Han, harp, shamrock and celtic cross are symbols of IRISHNESS and exist across a range of Northern Irish Institutions including regiments, the flag and the NI Football team
“What do mean things to me is fair policing, health care, good economy etc. As we have accepted there is nothing we can do about the situation until we have a majority of people here wanting change, we’ll work to make this place better, because no one likes ot live in a shit hole, and while NI might mean nothing to me Belfast does, for example.”
Well that’s a good start.
And does your last comment mean that citisens of Newry and Londonderry can expect nothing from a SF Belfast MLA ?
“While, for example, being respectful of people’s support of the NI team”
That’s another massive improvement on your usual contribution to the NI football team – we must at last be getting through to you ?
“Nothing is forever dude. I am gald youa ccept NI is over there. It is an important first step in getting people thinking about the future.”
I wasnt saying NI was over – I was saying that if you go down your route any hope of a 32 County Independent Ireland will be irredeemably over.
Although as you are only interested in a pure Catholic Ireland that will cause you no concern.
I think I understand you now and it is not pretty.
Looks like North Belfast will be further confounded into DUP control.
Good to see.
JEB
I am simply saying that if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of unionists then you would have to become committed citisens of NI first.
There is no such thing as NI citizenship. There are Irish citizens and British subjects.
Just as it is possible to work as a minister in a state while believing in and working for a united Europe it is possible to work in the executive while believing and working for a united Ireland.
Nor is the NI football version of Norman Tebitt’s cricket test going to apply to our ministers.
There is no obligation on the Lord mayor of Belfast to support the Antrim hurlers and there is no obligation on ministers to support the NI team.
Henry94
Actually we are British citizens.
A united Europe (uugh!) would be a pooling of soverignty whilst I understand that the nationalist/ republican project entails a transfer of soverignty and destruction of NI as a state. Not the same thing at all.
Given the recent Provo love-in at Casement Park your Antrim GAA reference is unfortunate. That aside are you really suggesting that a NI sports minister could credibly adopt the position where she or he couldn’t support the NI football team?
“If the Union is dependent upon a sectarian head count I wouldn’t consider it worth saving.”
Nationalist vote share will increase, because the Catholic population where it draws most of its support is still growing. This is a statement of fact, no more, no less.
“However you clearly understand nothing of what it means to be a Republican let alone an Irish one.
Ideals of egalitarianism for every man have been replaced with how a man chooses to worship whatever God he pays his allegiance to.”
No, you are putting words into my mouth. As I pointed out above, I was merely stating fact to support another point.
I didn’t comment on what a potential UI should like.
“Convincing Protestants and winning their hearts and minds doesnt mean anything to you.”
No, it does. I haven’t laid out how I think a United Ireland should be because the discussion here was about me giving up my Irish idenity for some kind of Northern Ireland one I don’t have and don’t want. Happy to talk about if you want.
“Its not about how a man thinks and chooses but on what ‘tradition’ he just happens to be borne into.”
I would love it if everyone was a completely independent thinker, but in the real world people are borne into communities that matter to them. theyw orry not only about themselves but about their communities and identity. It is not worng to respect that.
“I have been trying to tease out of you and a few others a way in which the principles of mutual respect as per the Agreemnet (WHICH UNLESS YOU ARE A DISSIDENT SIGNED UP TO) can be lived up to by both parties.”
No, your trying to get me to support the NI football team. You aren’t listening to me. You telling me that something doesn’t compromise my principles or make me deeply uncomfortabe when I am telling you it does. Are on earth can you be right here?
“The Red Han, harp, shamrock and celtic cross are symbols of IRISHNESS and exist across a range of Northern Irish Institutions including regiments, the flag and the NI Football team”
Those symbols in and of themselves are. But symbols are more than just their parts. They are how they are made up, and what else they include and who uses them. They don’t represent me. I saw a UVF logo on a wall this morning. It featured a Red Hand of Ulster. Are you saying they represent me?
“Well that’s a good start.
And does your last comment mean that citisens of Newry and Londonderry can expect nothing from a SF Belfast MLA ?”
Didn’t actually say that, if you read it. But those pack of cultchies? Pffff they deserve nothing.
“That’s another massive improvement on your usual contribution to the NI football team – we must at last be getting through to you ?”
No, I respect people’s right to support it. I am apathetic aside from when they are being sectarian or claiming they want to climb above us in the rankings. Then I want them to get beat.
What i dislike is some NI fans smug attitude that they aren’t completely sectarian anymore.
“I wasnt saying NI was over – I was saying that if you go down your route any hope of a 32 County Independent Ireland will be irredeemably over.”
Again, haven’t said anything about a United Ireland.
“Although as you are only interested in a pure Catholic Ireland that will cause you no concern.
I think I understand you now and it is not pretty.”
I’m not actually interested in a pure Catholic Ireland. I don’t believe it is healthy, and I don’t believe it is representative of Ireland’s past. I am a firm believer in complete separation of Church and state, and I’m a firm believer that equality provisions about religion should be built into the Constitution of any new All-Ireland state. Because it isn’t just about you, there going to be Muslim Irish people and Buddhist Irish people and ton of others coming our way as well.
What I’m not interested in is subtraction. I am interested in adding your Irishness to a state that can represent it and more generally to the wider sens eof Irishness. But it has to represent my Irishness as well, otherwise there is no point and I’ll just resent you for taking bits of it away.
“That aside are you really suggesting that a NI sports minister could credibly adopt the position where she or he couldn’t support the NI football team?”
Yeah.
Though to avoid the problem, a Unionist should just take the ministry.
JEB
What a nasty little sectarian post your 8.11 was.
Substitute Catholic for Jew and Ireland for Israel or Catholic for Afrikanns and Ireland for RSA – or even Catholic for Aryan and Ireland for Third Reich and you will see what I mean.
And it is supposed to be the Orange Protestants who are the unreformed Bggts in this part of the world – LOL !
Simply Pathetic
My parents have a mixed marriage and I myself am happily married to a Protestant. If I’m sectarian, I’m clearly not very good at it.
I was answering Bushmill’s ludicrous suggestion that Nationalism had completely lost as a result of the St Andrew’s Agreement. Of course, no-one has lost everything and no-one has gained everything.
I stated (as I do on every post) that I am and have always been against ALL violence. I simply refused to give my support to Partisan policing and the UDR who were just the B-Specials in a new uniform.
I support this new agreement. I was merely pointing out demographic facts and my opinion (shared by many Unionists) that the UK govt doesn’t give a shit about the Union in the long term. I believe that there will be a UI by consent in the future although not in my lifetime.
I grew up in a Northern Ireland where some Catholics didn’t have a vote because of an electoral system deliberately designed to favour Unionists. I would have thought that I have more in common with Jewish people or Black South Africans since I too have been on the end of electoral discrimination, unlike the ruling NI Unionists who practised it.
I greatly resent your Aryan remark as my father’s side of the family have a long tradition of service in the armed services and several of them have lost their lives.
I don’t resort to personal abuse but I’ll say this. If your level of debate is typical of the UUP, it’s pretty obvious why they are well on the way to electoral oblivion.
Billy
I apologise for any personal affront – I just get angry when I hear people counting Prods and Taigs on either side.
I believe there can be Protestant nationalists and republicans and also Catholic unionists. They are ignored by both sides to the detriment of each.
A plague on both houses if the ideals of a UI or the maintenance of the Union in the 21st Century is reduced to a religious affiliation head count.
Why (TODAY) should Catholicism be so closely associated with a UI and why should Protestantism be for the maintenance of the Union ?
Religion defines our allegiance when it has long forfeited the right (if it ever deserved it) to do so.
“I was merely pointing out demographic facts and my opinion (shared by many Unionists) that the UK govt doesn’t give a shit about the Union in the long term.”
What the UK Govt doesnt give a shit about is a Union with people who do not wish to be united – ie the Irish Nationalist.
However by and large they have no problem with people like me – loyal UK citisens no different than Scotland, north of England etc
For instance if there was no dispute in NI do you think any such view would be held by any UK citisen ?
Therefore Nationalists need to stop the old line about NI not being wanted – it is certain pain in the ass children that they would gladly disassociate with.
Kensei
“What I’m not interested in is subtraction. I am interested in adding your Irishness to a state that can represent it and more generally to the wider sens eof Irishness. But it has to represent my Irishness as well, otherwise there is no point and I’ll just resent you for taking bits of it away.”
I simply do not see my Irishness fulfilled by removing my Britishness and you do not see your Irishness completed by remaining separate from the 26 counties.
However your Irishness – although not politically complete in your view – is nevertheless there and can be catered for within a Northern Ireland context.
I am not asking you to be British and I am not asking you to forfeit your nationlist separations.
I am simply advising you that we should all live up to the ideals of the Agreement that recognised the uniqueness of this part of the world and its divided loyalties.
We can either live apart (ie we can just about exist together) or we can live up to our commitments to one another in the context of a NI.
This will involve our generation taking risks with both the cementing of the Union as well as ever gaining an independent United Ireland.
The result will be a peaceful and prosperous inheritance to our children and grand children who can make the decision themsleves.
The alternative is ongoing animosity and antagonism ultimately leading possibly to a re drawing of the borders.
“However your Irishness – although not politically complete in your view – is nevertheless there and can be catered for within a Northern Ireland context.”
In what sense? Especially after you just said your britishness couldn’t be catered in a UI.
“I am not asking you to be British and I am not asking you to forfeit your nationlist separations.
I am simply advising you that we should all live up to the ideals of the Agreement that recognised the uniqueness of this part of the world and its divided loyalties.”
That’s ok. As far as Republicans are concerned, we will live up to the commitments we have made. That does not mean supporting the football team, for example, and it isn’t what you said earlier.
“We can either live apart (ie we can just about exist together) or we can live up to our commitments to one another in the context of a NI.
This will involve our generation taking risks with both the cementing of the Union as well as ever gaining an independent United Ireland.
The result will be a peaceful and prosperous inheritance to our children and grand children who can make the decision themsleves.
The alternative is ongoing animosity and antagonism ultimately leading possibly to a re drawing of the borders.”
This is all very well and nothing anyone can disagree with. But what the nuts and bolts of that are will be very different in your opinion and mine.
I do not believe in forcing people together, not least because that doesn’t work. We need to create spaces where people can come together, we need to make people comfortable with themselves, and then they’ll mix. Basically, we need to tolerate each other first before we start the group hugs. Anything else is unrealistic.
kensei
“I do not believe in forcing people together, not least because that doesn’t work. We need to create spaces where people can come together, we need to make people comfortable with themselves, and then they’ll mix. Basically, we need to tolerate each other first before we start the group hugs. Anything else is unrealistic.”
Yes that space is called Northern Ireland
“In what sense? Especially after you just said your britishness couldn’t be catered in a UI.”
In the sense that you live in Ireland, with your fellow Irish men.
In a UI there would be no sense of Britishness at all.
Britishness is not involves a Union of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (Northern now).
Irishness does not need a unified island.
Irish nationalism is a political expression of the Irish – no more valid than Irish unionism
Both are Irish
“Yes that space is called Northern Ireland”
Whatever. And that’s not the sense I’m talking about.
“In the sense that you live in Ireland, with your fellow Irish men. In a UI there would be no sense of Britishness at all.
Britishness is not involves a Union of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (Northern now).
Irishness does not need a unified island.”
My Irishness asserts it’s independence to manage it’s own affairs. It doesn’t believe in giving it’s birthright away. My Irishnes believes that not just that is this right and just, but everyone will be better off unde rthis state of affairs. My Irishness is offended by the head of start being unelected. My irishness doesn’t belive in calling anyone “Lord”, much less giving thos epeople power of government. My Irishness believes in a written Constitution as ultimate guarentor of rights, and that an unwritten one isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. My Irishness believes in neutrality and avoiding foreign wars. My Irishness believes in not being separated from the rest of the Irish nation and acutely feels the pain of such a state of affairs. The flag and anthem I owe loyalty to and fill me with pride are not the flags and anthem of Britain in whatever form.
Northern Ireland and Britain can never represent even a fraction of that. I don’t claim a United Ireland could represent your Britishness, only your Irishness. It can only respect your Britishness. Which is more than what you are giving me with statements like that.
Kensei
“My Irishness asserts it’s independence to manage it’s own affairs – YOU WANT TO PULL SOVEREIGNTY WITH 4m OTHERS ON THE ISLAND – I JUST WANT IT WITH 60M OTHERS AMONG THE ISLANDS It doesn’t believe in giving it’s birthright away.- THIS IS A MEANINGLESS STATEMENT My Irishnes believes that not just that is this right and just, but everyone will be better off unde rthis state of affairs.- MATTER OF OPINION My Irishness is offended by the head of start being unelected.- THE HOS YOU ARE OFFENDED BY IS NOTHING MORE THAN A FIGUREHEAD AND ALLOWED TO HOLD THAT POSITION BY THE PEOPLE My irishness doesn’t belive in calling anyone “Lord”, much less giving thos epeople power of government. WHAT PEOPLE ARE CALLED IS IRRELEVANT – THE HOUSE OF LORDS HAS NO REAL POWER My Irishness believes in a written Constitution as ultimate guarentor of rights, and that an unwritten one isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.HAS DONE MATURE NATIONS NO HARM My Irishness believes in neutrality and avoiding foreign wars.- COULD BE CONSIDERED AS OPTING OUT OF RESPONSIBILITIES My Irishness believes in not being separated from the rest of the Irish nation and acutely feels the pain of such a state of affairs.- FAIR ENOUGH The flag and anthem I owe loyalty to and fill me with pride are not the flags and anthem of Britain in whatever form.” – FAIR ENOUGH FROM YOUR STANDPOINT
“Whatever” – you shouldnt be so flippant about aspirations of sharing this space together
I dont know how old you are but it is likley that you are going to have to continue in your state of misery for the rest of your time here.
All I am suggesting is that republicans like you make the best of it and put their shoulder to the wheel – as Archbishop Brady suggested last week – and make this a much better place.
If you can’t then there is little point in us talking about it (and I have tried !) and the rest of us are just going to have to get on with it anyway.
My Irishness asserts it’s independence to manage it’s own affairs – YOU WANT TO PULL SOVEREIGNTY WITH 4m OTHERS ON THE ISLAND – I JUST WANT IT WITH 60M OTHERS AMONG THE ISLANDS So not trhe same thing then? It doesn’t believe in giving it’s birthright away.- THIS IS A MEANINGLESS STATEMENT No it most certainly isn’t – the right to decide our own destiny is one of the nmost important things we have My Irishnes believes that not just that is this right and just, but everyone will be better off unde rthis state of affairs.- MATTER OF OPINION Isn’t that the point? My Irishness is offended by the head of start being unelected.- THE HOS YOU ARE OFFENDED BY IS NOTHING MORE THAN A FIGUREHEAD AND ALLOWED TO HOLD THAT POSITION BY THE PEOPLE No, I think you’ll find that I find monarchy a distatseful idea and my commitment to democracy goes right tot he head of state. The fact that she gets even 2p of my taxes immediately raises my ire My irishness doesn’t belive in calling anyone “Lord”, much less giving thos epeople power of government. WHAT PEOPLE ARE CALLED IS IRRELEVANT – THE HOUSE OF LORDS HAS NO REAL POWER Try finding out about your own Constitutional Arrangements My Irishness believes in a written Constitution as ultimate guarentor of rights, and that an unwritten one isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.HAS DONE MATURE NATIONS NO HARM I would tend to disagree strongly, particularly witrh some of the nonsense that has went on recently with terror suspects. Bad law is not struck off, as it would be in the US or the Republic My Irishness believes in neutrality and avoiding foreign wars.- COULD BE CONSIDERED AS OPTING OUT OF RESPONSIBILITIES Foertunately, most of my fellow Irishmen agree with me, and this is about a state representing meMy Irishness believes in not being separated from the rest of the Irish nation and acutely feels the pain of such a state of affairs.- FAIR ENOUGH The flag and anthem I owe loyalty to and fill me with pride are not the flags and anthem of Britain in whatever form.” – FAIR ENOUGH FROM YOUR STANDPOINT
““Whatever” – you shouldnt be so flippant about aspirations of sharing this space together”
No whatever is exactly the right response to what you said. The North of Ireland is the shared space regardless of precise Constitutional Arrangements. But I meant on a lower local level. And you’ll still can’t force people together regardless.
You just wanted a cheap point.
Moreover, you aren’t interested in listening to me. The above is a perfect example – you are interested in telling what I should think, what I should feel, who I should support and what is hould believe. You may believe this to be debate, but sadly it is not so.
“I dont know how old you are but it is likley that you are going to have to continue in your state of misery for the rest of your time here.”
We all have our crosses to bear. There’s always hope and it is enough.
“All I am suggesting is that republicans like you make the best of it and put their shoulder to the wheel – as Archbishop Brady suggested last week – and make this a much better place.”
And I keeps saying we’re going to do that. It’s just not the same as doing everything you want, though. Or supporting the football team.
“If you can’t then there is little point in us talking about it (and I have tried !) and the rest of us are just going to have to get on with it anyway. ”
You aren’t talking, you’re telling. Try listening.
And once again, this place is set up so you can’t do jack without Nationalists and Republicans, and that will remain so for the foresseable future.
Ah balls. Never mess with the awesome power of html