SF intimidation moves down south?
Councillors in New Ross Town aren’t happy with Sinn Fein’s leafletting tactics, with one FF councillor, Kevin Dwyer, seeking a public apology from the SF Chairman of the council, John Dwyer, over what he calls “a deplorable and despicable act of intimidation, [...] completely underhand intimidation of members of the public and public representatives.” Michael Sheehan, FF, adds, “‘Putting fliers on doors and windows and going onto private property might have seemed like a laugh and a joke at the time, but when you bring families into it it’s not very funny at all,’ while FG Cllr Ray Lawlor would prefer to keep party politics out of council chambers altogether. John Dwyer, for his part, calls it a publicity stunt and suggest FF will be talking to SF “with a view to forming a coalition” regardless.Some questions are, does the shadow around SF (namely, the IRA), mean rough and tumble politics take on a more sinister meaning, and is the south ready to accept SF at (political) face value?
Déjà vu ?
Just a general point I don’t think it is safe to encourage vigilante type politics. We see the problems in the North and we can see examples of the outcome dotted across the world. Generally it ends in grief. Internal politics should be based on democratic principles and should not have a direct link to physical force or groupings that can intimidate other than state agencies to enforce laws democratically decided.
“…Internal politics should be based on democratic principles…
Fully agree Crat’, but what to do when there are elements in society who don’t abide by the same principles? Under no circumstances do I condone any type of vigilante behaviour, but we have seen here what happens when democracy breaksdown and stae forces of law and order are unwilling/unable to address the problem. Biased public representation, biased press/media, a retreat to polarised politics, doubt and uncertainty at all levels of society… Sound familiar?
welcome to an ireland of equals.
The republic may get used to this intimidation by SF, these tatics have been deployed in northern ireland for many years!!
Bertie doesnt want them in the Dail, how can he expect Northern Ireland government to accept them
Eric
I am not a great fan of the PSNI, but unfortunately have to agree with the argument that law and order is their job. However I believe their performance is lamentable and that many innocent people are suffering unnecessarily because of it. I think part of the problem is unquestionably to do with collusion but equally they haven’t been policing for so long that I begin to think they have forgotten what it means and how to do it. This needs to be sorted out and to my mind is much more important than trying to resuscitate the Assembly.
If we go down the route of the lynch mob we are entering an area that the mob, if it is organised, can be turned on any one of us for whatever purpose. The general activity can also cover others who are using it as cover for their own purpose.
In a large percentage of places where there are vigilante forces there eventually seems to be civil unrest. Now I am unsure if it is the civil unrest causes the vigilantes or the reverse but they are generally a bad sign.
This is the way the Shinners operate. Intimadating other parties. They just do not intimadate other parties they intimadate the voters as well. They will be calling at your door telling you to vote for them or they know where you live. Some politicians these boys they have it down to a fine art. Yet butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths. Dressed in fancy clothes and potray to be the people the voice of respectability
So now southern politics is experiencing what northern politics have had to put up with from the Shinners for years. Just be careful who you vote for you might just end up with a bunch of cowboys in the Dail called Sinn Fein with Gerry Adams Taoiseach. Lord perish the thought.
Crataegus, the police always have to operate within political constraints. It the 1990s they couldn’t ruffle paramilitary feathers without political clearance; they could observe but they needed permission to intervene.
Don’t be surprised if the paramilitary godfathers gain an even greater foothold in the realm of policing and justice prior to November 24. They might also be the recipient of the odd bung – in the interests of the ‘peace process’, of course. Influential political figures will probably also sing the praises of the godfathers and highlight their value as community leadership role models ….
Erm, has anyone actually read the link provided? It may mean that you have to register, but it’s free
I don’t really know what I was expecting to read in the article, considering the headline of the post, but what I did see bears very little relation to some of the nonsense posted above.
True, posting protest letters on the doors of cllrs smacks of over exuberence, but that’s about the height of it! Cllr Ray Lawlor of FG even chastised the FF cllrs in question for twisting the issue for point scoring! and that’s somethinga FG cllr defending a SF council chairman!
Really, am a newbie posting on slugger, but am absolutely astounded by the disingeniousness and hypocricy on show!
sorry, I know it’s whataboutery, but I don’t remember seeing a similar hoo-haa when (SF) councillors were the subject of bomb warnings and death threats recently.. in fact I rmember some DUP representatives refusing to condemn.
geeez!
They do not seem to have heard that the ballot is private nor that the police have had to be reformed because of their very obvious bias which was not towards republicans.
Can it possibly be something to do with the fact that (another) unionist worthy has been caught messing about with the election process? Surely not!
“They do not seem to have heard that the ballot is private ”
Up to a point private — but SF was able to call at my neighbours door 3 times (yes three times) to remind him that he had yet to vote and offer yet another lift to the polling station. Some smelly collusion there.
Just Sinn (scumbags) Fein, doing what they do best. Nothing new in that.
Banshee
The way it works is this; each political party has people monitoring the polling stations, some like SF have several at each desk ticking of the electoral role as voters come in, some time during the day they leave or go to the toilet and the ticked of list is exported. It is illegal and should not happen. We need to reduce the number of monitors to one per party per polling station and they should be keep away from the officials. They are there to monitor general conduct not abuse the system.
No one seems to have responded to my previous post..
“ohdearme”, did you go to unison and read the article?
There’s a lot of self reinforcing of stereotypes going on here, endemic in the North. Actually ead the article and see how that matches up with certain peoples ingrained idea of how to judge everyone.
It’s that old cliche of decommissioning of mindsets again.. it is a huge issue to be addressed and, with respect, is something the unionist community- not exclusively- but in particular must face up to. This brand of political and religious socialisation occurring within swathes of the Unionist diaspora that preprogrammes generations with suspicion and, at its worst, hatred is probably the largest single obstacle in the way of a normal society now.
Surely this thread is a case in point? The article has been taken, twisted and presented as an opportunity for others of a like mind to further reinforce thier own particular stereotypes! Soon after, the actual truth of the event gets forgotten, but the old stereotypes have been reinforced.
Don’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.
“Up to a point private—but SF was able to call at my neighbours door 3 times (yes three times) to remind him that he had yet to vote and offer yet another lift to the polling station. Some smelly collusion there.”
Or, they wait outside, haven’t seen the person and go back?
Welcome to the realities of ‘the north’, southern voters. You backed a party (FF) who are essentially ideological nationalist facsists like SF who turned every principle of democracy on its head to appease these people. Now you are getting a taste of it. To use northern parlance: “slap it up you”.
To hear the apologists for those who carried out the Northern Bank crime, which involved TORTURE of an innocent family, bleat about ‘bungs’ is priceless.
You’re going to realise what corruption really means if these people are allowed anywhere near power.
Frankly, the republic deserves it for its compliance in the process of letting the Provos become ‘respectable’. Enjoy.
MickyG
Often stereotypes are based on fact and no matter how many times you claim frozen mindsets doesn’t make it so. I have seen SFs election machine some of what they do is good and very effective some is down right dubious and possibly illegal.
Don’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.
No you have the wrong end of the stick the way to a fair and just society is for those who break the rules to conform to decent standards. Sticking our heads in the ground may mean we hear no evil and see no evil but it doesn’t make society fair.
True, posting protest letters on the doors of cllrs smacks of over exuberence, but that’s about the height of it!
In a NI context that is definitely intimidation. It depends who is posting and who you are. How would you like it if some independent Loyalists decided to poster your house? I would take it as a real threat and would be onto the Police. It is potentially very threatening. It is saying we know where to find you and this is what we think of you. Much depends on context.
Happy now? No one’s read the actual article, it seems, yet here we have crazy statements from people like agape.
This kind of twisted nonsense seems daily bread for many like him/her, and then they will stare expressionlessly and and wash thier hands every time anticatholic racism manifests itself in blood.
Crateagus
The context here is a protest Tansport Committee and the cllrs were associated with that policy.. i stick to my original assertion that it’s more overexuberance than (sectarian) intinidation.. would you not agree? Listen, I’m not saying I agree with it being done in this way, but I agree even less with this continual twisting that just gives an excuse for the narrow minded in society to remain so.
“In a NI context that is definitely intimidation”
it wasn’t in NI, point negated?!!
Crateagus, could you not be burying your head in the sand yourself -just a little- by seemingly refusing to acknowledge or address that the single biggest problem we face in society are the ingrained, mostly unreasonable, mindsets that prevail.. and sadly mosly within unionism.
Of course, as you say, if everyone followed decent rules that would be great.. but thats not really a critique that is anything other than utopianism!! (sorry!)
NickyG
wash their hands every time anti-Catholic racism manifests itself in blood
It is important that none of us wash our hands of ANY racism.
It is not anti catholic to criticise the conduct of political parties if they go over the edge. I have had my fair share of problems with Loyalist types and you cannot just take this sort of conduct lightly it is potentially threatening. If it were some Loyalist group I would say exactly the same, and as I say context is all important.
Yes it is in the South but this sort of thing just should not happen. Given that, the question then is are the councillors making political hay out of it, or do some for reasons not apparent actually feel threatened? I could see, given personal experience, how there could be a very real problem, but equally I can see a local politician or two making a lot out of nothing.
It shouldn’t have happened though paradoxically SF have probably gained from the publicity so in my opinion if the motivation was political then it wasn’t very clever. Good maxim in politics is never give your opponents publicity.
If the intimidation discussed above is true for Northern Ireland and if the voting irregularity in Coleraine is not an isolated case, shouldn’t you have democratic elections before you have an Assembly? Not to do so would produce a non-democratic Assembly that would not truly reflect all the voters in NI and would be of dubious legitimacy.
New Yorker
In my opinion need to tighten up on activities around Polling stations and a look at postal votes etc. if we do that then the process would be fairly democratic in fact probably better than in most countries, but we will be electing people into an Assembly whose structures enshrine sectarianism and there is no accounting for what people elect.
The issue about notes being illegally sent out of polling stations really does need to be addressed. How would you feel if a couple of blokes arrived at your door and told you that you had not voted and to get out and vote?
Don’t mean to sound spiteful, but just get frustrated with seeing this happen day in day out throughout society, putting us another small step away from a just society.”
Nicky G
Took your advice and read the article.
I agree with you that the action was not “sectarian” but it’s quite clear that the people concerned knew exactly whose door they were posting on. If a political opponent intentionally targets your home in this way, what legitimate point do you think they’re to make?
I thought this comment from the Shinner in question was priceless:
“Cllr. John Dwyer said he was not going to respond to either point as ‘to do so would be to introduce party politics into the Chamber’”
For those too lazy to read the article, the mayor was also being called to account for attending some Provo’s commemoration in Belfast.
Anna,
as you are getting on your high horse, if you cared to read the article carefully you would have noted that attending a commemoration, Provo or otherwise, in Belfast had nothing to do with his position in New Ross.
This is first time I’ve ever seen New Ross described as a town.
Some questions are, does the shadow around SF (namely, the IRA), mean rough and tumble politics take on a more sinister meaning, and is the south ready to accept SF at (political) face value?
RN
So putting a leaflet on a door and a window is sinister?
Have a read about the history of Fianna Fail selection conventions- then you’ll know about the meaning of rough and tumble politics in the 26 counties.
This post smacks of sensationalism from the outset. The title insinuates Sinn Fein intimidation is a constant in the north and is now being exported south. Have you evidence to back up this assertion? And please, spare us the allegations Alisdair McDonnell so truly believed that he waited until he was in England to publicly make them last week.
The last point has already been answered, whether you like it or not. Sinn Fein has 5 TDs, 1 MEP and scores of councillors across the 26 counties, and is consistently polling as the fourth largest party in the state.
SF are hard wired to electoral fraud and intimidation. I’m with the others who find the likes of FF bleating about its export over the border pretty laughable. What did you think you were going to get when you helped these people launder the blood from their hands to become a ‘respectable’ party? Your country obsesses about a snivelling Bertie taking 50 grand from his mates, and rushes to defend sectarian facsists from blame when they blatantly steal 26 million and terrorise innocents in the process.
Fourth largest party in the Free State is a pretty feeble reward for killing thousands of people. Ah well, most of them were Prods so it doesn’t really count.
SF are hard wired to electoral fraud and intimidation
Any chance of some evidence? If I am not mistaken it was a DUP fella who was recently done for electoral fraud.
A very disingenious post that is not up to Sluggers usual standard.
Glad to see there are actually some people who can actually digest information and determine the voracity of it! Hope!! Yippee!!
Let’s be honest, if it was a Green party transport commitee posting a transport policy protest bill on a window there would be none of this. And they have done such things and much more. In truth, the comparison made with Loyalists coming to your door- whilst made in earnest- is a complete misnomer.
This is just more of the stuff that will see people like “as good as a mile” continue to have thier own narrow outlook reinforced, and how can that be a good thing?
DISINGENIOUS AND DISHONEST STUFF, by blogger: rusty nail!
Given their associations, SF activists targetting the homes of part-time councillors is intimidation and should stop.
If we permit acts of vandalism and intimidation by SF, smart suits or no, we risk paramilitary murder gangs talent-spotting a new generation of spies and murderers to fill our jails and graveyards.
For those in SF uneasy with the Totally UnArmed Strategy, the Tactical Use of Armed Struggle still exists as an option.
And convincing us in the short term that SF are fit to govern while intimidating is not inconsistent with the exercise of that option in the medium term.
Even if the IRA’s guns were gone, getting more was never going to be hard.
SF and loyalists are only bad people when we let them be.
George
“as you are getting on your high horse, if you cared to read the article carefully you would have noted that attending a commemoration, Provo or otherwise, in Belfast had nothing to do with his position in New Ross.”
If you cared to read my comment carefully, you’ll see that I didn’t say otherwise.
But obviously the other members of the council felt that it didn’t reflect well on their town that its Chairman had decided to participate in the ceremony in question.
(from the article!)
“The first was the Council Chairman’s decision to unveil a banner commemorating I.R.A. bomber Ed O’Brien in Belfast recently.
‘Party politics or not, it was the wrong thing to do as Cathaoirleach of New Ross Town Council,’ he said.”
To New Yorker.
In response to your posting How does one close the door on this electoral malpractice? It is done in such a suttle way that it appears above board.
For example if you live in a Nationalist / Republican / Catholic area the shinners are round at your door every hour on the hour on election day encouraging you to give your vote to them, they will even give you a lift to the polling station. wait outside the door, to ensure you cast your vote for them and wait on you coming out to give you a lift home. How could you vote for the party / candidate of your choice under these circumstances?
A case in an election a few years ago there was just a few hundred votes between 2 candidates in an election with Sinn Fein picking up 2nd place. There was an immediate outcry from SF demanding a recount. When the recount was complete under the eyes of SF scrutineers the eventual out come was SF topped the poll by 50 odd votes.
Explain how come SF knew the outcome would be in their favour when demanding the recount. You need to live in Northern Ireland at election thim just to watch the shananigans of the Sinn Fein machine in operation to believe it. This is democracy Sinn Fein style.
Hope that answers your posting.
“A case in an election a few years ago there was just a few hundred votes between 2 candidates in an election with Sinn Fein picking up 2nd place. There was an immediate outcry from SF demanding a recount. When the recount was complete under the eyes of SF scrutineers the eventual out come was SF topped the poll by 50 odd votes.”
Hippy – this account sounds fictional, care to state what constitency and when? Then we can check if it is true.
To An Angelic Republican
The Sinn Fein candidate in that election goes under the initials MG. I am not sure of the constituancy but I’m pretty sure you can work it out from the candidates initials.
I assume that the rest of the post is correct as you havn’t quired that.
I am comfortably sitting on a moral high horse.
That’s fairly easy due to the amount of crap being posted on this thread.
Crat
- not actually getting at you as most of what you say is fair comment, but i thought ticking people off the electoral roll etc was legal – its certainly done by the major parties in England
Hippy
how can SF waiting outside the door “ensure you cast your vote for them”? – its still a private ballot. Parties can only tell if you have voted or not. I would have thought voter intimidation would have been counter -productive, people may accept a lift but then vote for somebody else.
Its interesting to see all the allegations of fraud, intimidation etc that have been thrown at SF over the years. I remember people predicting that the SF vote would drop a couple of years ago as voting procedures were tightened up – in fact it went up.
Also, as Chris said, the only person I can remember being convicted of fraud recently was an unionist.
Thats my rant over.
To Andy
I don’t know what you mean when you say you acomfortably sitting on a moral high horse. You would need to explain that statement.
What crap you speak. What posters have said on this site has a very high degree of accuracy. If Sinn Fein brought you to or gave you a lift to the polling station would you come out and say you voted for the SDLP or A.N.OTHER. Not on your life would you.
As for privicy that is a joke. When you hand your polling card in the clerk then puts your polling number in pencil on your voting paper after your documentation is checked. Thats not privacy. There should be no number put on anyones voting paper. What the shinners do ins’t illegal but intimadation isn’t legal either, but if you live in a Nationalist/Republican/Catholic area is it going to be reported and if so who to?
So Andy get of your moral high horse and join the real world.
In the Europen elections, one SF team told an elderly woman they would be able to find out who she voted for!
(before all the SS come along looking for ‘proof’, claiming this to be a fictitious story, let me say – DON’T BOTHER! If you support a party who supported the treasonous murder of innocent Irishmen, your judgment is impaired))
“What crap you speak. What posters have said on this site has a very high degree of accuracy. If Sinn Fein brought you to or gave you a lift to the polling station would you come out and say you voted for the SDLP or A.N.OTHER. Not on your life would you. ”
Yeah, you’d lie about it if that was the case. Good god.
And your complaining someone needs to join the real world? Here is the real world: SF do not intimidate anyone into voting for them. People vote for them because they want to.
Looper
Kensei very efficiently dealt with your first point.
As to your second – you’re technically accurate but your concern doesn’t seem born out in practice. Only a judge can give authority to check out who you voted for, and I have never heard anyone claiming abuse of the system – or for that matter anyone claiming SF (or any other party) found out how they voted.
dj – I have never voted for SF (admittedly I have never had the opportunity but don’t think I would have voted for them if I had) – so can I ask for proof – or evidence? You clearly feel strongly about this (fair enough) but surely you recognise the validity of people at least trying to prove allegations like that?
In tems of my “comfortable on the moral high horse” statement it was a reflection on the generally poor contributions on the thread – people seem to have used it as an opportunity to vindicate some of the prejudices they have on SF (some of which may be valid). However it was a bit of an arrogant and negative comment and to be honest I wish I hadn’t said it.
People vote for them because they want to.
Actually Kensei, it’s historical fact that in the 80′s SF won the West Belfast seat through massive electoral fraud. It was proved (don’t ask me for the actual proof mind, only a shinner could possibly disagree) that only 10 people actually voted for SF (albeit 3000 times each). However as the electoral process was reformed making it increasingly difficult (though not impossible – ask the DUP branch in Coleraine) to commit electoral fraud, decent people were faced with the conundrum, that far from the SF vote decreasing, it actually increased. Dispelling the moronic notion that SF had become the largest Nationalist party because of popular support of its policies, the most obvious explanation was that SF were now intimidating electoral wards on an almost Stalinist scale.
Lets face it, Hippy is right: Which Nationalist hasn’t woken up on polling day to find Gerry Kelly and Cathy Stanton waiting for them in their own kitchen, then finding themselves being bundled into a waiting black taxi at pamphlet point and frogmarched to a polling booth where we’ve had Gerry snatch the pencil out of our hand and scrawl an ‘X’ beside his own name?
We Nationalists can only look on in envy at the electoral freedoms and nicieties enjoyed by other civilised parties in Unionist constituencies; Upper Bann, for example.
“Lets face it, Hippy is right: Which Nationalist hasn’t woken up on polling day to find Gerry Kelly and Cathy Stanton waiting for them in their own kitchen, then finding themselves being bundled into a waiting black taxi at pamphlet point and frogmarched to a polling booth where we’ve had Gerry snatch the pencil out of our hand and scrawl an ‘X’ beside his own name”
Shut Up! He told me never to speak about it or he’d come back and kill my mother.
“When you hand your polling card in the clerk then puts your polling number in pencil on your voting paper after your documentation is checked. Thats not privacy.”
Does this happen in Northern Ireland?
Don’t like that one bit. Very dodgy.
George
It is possible to trace votes back to voters. I always assumed that it was to monitor people who voted Communist or any other groups who are regarded by the establishment as problematic. I don’t like it at all.
Andy
I have seen the abuse in question and in the context of NI think we really do need to insure that the polling station has the appearance of a neutral environment and you should not be able to convey information out from the polling station to activists outside. It is a really serious problem in some areas and it is not just SF. I have seen the abuse in action.
Crat/ George
Hi – re: the numbers thing – I think the official reason is to help uncover electoral fraud.
It happens throughout the UK – actualy I thought it would happen in ROI as well
re: the hassling of people to vote – I agree – I don’t think its particularly consistene with democratic values.
Hippy on Sep 29, 2006 @ 09:27 AM wrote…” … to ensure you cast your vote for them …” how does that work? I could take a lift to the polling station from an electoral candidate and vote for their opposition. I think you’re trying to convince yourself.
“A case in an election a few years ago… “ … where?
”..Explain how come SF knew the outcome would be in their favour when demanding the recount. “ wasn’t the passing of election pollsters (you label them scrutineers) due to the introduction of computer voting in RoI almost mourned by the medjjia. These are the anoraked hangers-on who know the constituencies and the voters and make educated guesses. You’ll find that they’re usually numberic and confident with averages, combinations and permutations (think electoral bookmakers). It’s part and parcel of elections in Irel – get used to it.
“You need to live in Northern Ireland at election thim just to watch the shananigans of the Sinn Fein machine in operation to believe it. This is democracy Sinn Fein style. “ They used say the same about the Soldiers of Destiny; no one in the Sick Cos could compare to FF regards of ‘getting the vote out’ or the ability of the party machine. Certainly no one in the Sick Cos. could lecture anyone regarding democratic elections (glasshouse dwellers throwing stones).
“Hope that answers your posting. “ it certainly displays your unsupported yet arrogant opinions.
Andy,
the thought of this happening is horrifying. The secret service must love this system.
In the Republic, you are given a ballot paper which is then franked.
They then tally the number of votes in the box with the number of ballot papers issued (from the stubs). You can’t tell which paper belongs to which person though but you can cross reference the stubs with the papers to see that they were issued by the presiding officer.
George
thanks for that.
Yeah, I was a bit shocked when I found out – tends to go against the whole idea of a secret ballot etc. Still – there doesn’t seem to be any reports of abuse.
Andy,
but you could have the same system of checks and balances with the one big exception that no one could know how you voted.
I’m with Crataegus, this information is too good for the intelligence services to turn down.
It has nothing to do with the integrity of the ballot. Scary, scary stuff.
“(before all the SS come along looking for ‘proof’, claiming this to be a fictitious story, let me say – DON’T BOTHER! If you support a party who supported the treasonous murder of innocent Irishmen, your judgment is impaired))”
Good god.
“re: the hassling of people to vote – I agree – I don’t think its particularly consistene with democratic values.”
Trying to get people to vote is inconsistent with democracy? Good god II.
When you hand your polling card in the clerk then puts your polling number in pencil on your voting paper after your documentation is checked. Thats not privacy.
Does this actually happen? I seem to recall that the ballot-paper was merely franked and that the polling card was merely used to cross your name off the electoral roll list.