Vance: who will defend the Pope?
David Vance is angered by the lack of any defence from anyone on last night’s Let’s Talk panel of the Pope Benedict’s controversial lecture.
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I agree the audience were too unsupportive of what the Pope said but I put that down partly to the antipathy towards the Pope felt by many Unionists for religious reasons. Many perhaps agreed with the substance of what he had to say (deep inside) but were not able to bring themselves to admit this because of traditional Northern Unionist antagonism to Catholicism.
Personally I find it extremely difficult not to agree with the Pope (as a lapsed Catholic it’s very rare I would say that). Islam seems stuck in an historical phase not unlike post-Reformation Europe during the wars of religion. The obsession with violence to punish those who criticise their faith harks back to the period of European heresy laws. Until the Islamic world can come out of its timewarp, the West should operate an extremely restrictive policy on Muslim immigration. I heard recently on the radio about a Muslim couple living here in the Republic, who were apprehended in Wales by the police who found what someone in the intelligence agencies reportedly called one of the best terrorist handbooks she had ever seen in their car. It frightens me that our security in this country is so lax – especially when it comes to immigration. I hope we don’t become a base for Islamic radicals to attack the UK. I fear the Opposition – likely to come to office next time – will be even laxer on immigration that the current govt – as Labour is dominated (except its leader) by a virulent PC-brigade who oppose any and all restrictions on immigration. A number of AQ members reportedly came into Ireland on false passports and gained Irish citizenship. I read in the press some time ago that part of the funds for the Kenya and Tanzania bombs came from Islamic ‘charities’ that were used as a front to transfer the cash, and that Gardai discovered a map where an AQ suspect had been living reminscent of that found in Spain after the Madrid bombings. Also I heard on the Late Late Show on Friday that on the South Circular Road in Dublin, there are Islamic extremists. Honesty, Benedict is right about Turkish entry to the EU. The answer has to be a big NO. It is unfair both to ourselves and to the Turks to be leading them up the garden path in this way. With Austria and France pledging referenda, there is no way Turkey can feasibly be allowed into the EU – especially after how French cities burned last year.
Fanny
The Pope’s lecture was about using logos (reason) and religion and the transcendent bit was relating to the unreasoning Muslim extremists – those who say “You love life, we love death”.
A commentary on the Koran I picked up from a Moslem bookshop the author wrote on sura 4.34 that the Prophet had given into his male followers by allowing them to beat their wives. Well, so much for the Koran being divine revelation! (which in my view it is not. It is something cobbled together to support a brilliant general who conquered all the local tribes who had oppressed him and who had worshipped the big block of stone in Mecca which is now what all Moslems turn to when they pray).
And no matter how poetic sura 4.34 and other similar verses sound in Arabic, the statements are shite.
I started looking into Islam because I felt a bit sorry for the bad press it was getting. The dominant image (other than blowing people up) is huge crowds of angry men shouting and shaking their fists. After I read sura 4.34 I thought Moslems could look after themselves. I wasn’t going to get further involved.
The Pope has co-authored a book about the West and Islam called: “Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity and Islam” which I haven’t read yet. There is another book on Europe and Islam coming out next year, according to Amazon.co.uk
Hurler on the Ditch,
I accept that you did not intend to insult the Pope as idiot because of what he had to say but rather because (you believe) he unwisely did not desist from saying what he did because there might be a negative reaction in some quarters.
Would you then have had Gallileo be an idiot, or Newton, Darwin, Jenner, Freud, Ricardo, Marx? After all each of these might have anticipated a negative reaction from interests inimical to shining a light into the dark that we might see the beginning of wisdom.
Fanny
You said my comments were trite. Are such stories commonplace? Perhaps you would like to give some examples of other stories involving Arab women going whoring. I would find that most gratifying.
But not as gratifying as (presuming you are a western woman) western women running to the defense of their Muslim counterparts. You feel so very sorry for them, and yet the majority of THEM (I stress THEM: I am a western man and do not think this of you) think you, as a western woman, are a whore, worthy only of their contempt.
(Admittedly, my sense of humor is a little on the acidic side)
Well done. It is truly charitable, turning the other cheek and all that. Jesus would be proud.
As for the poetry thing, you really took that one by the bit. Let’s try this again:
The Koran is a religious book. That means that you are usually limited to making literal translations, which doesn’t lend itself to poetic license. In short, yes, you could make it sound like poetry, and you could also change it into a tale about Mohammed and his Psychedelic Journey through Time and Space.
But I did like your poem.
Rory,
“I accept that you did not intend to insult the Pope as idiot because of what he had to say but rather because (you believe) he unwisely did not desist from saying what he did because there might be a negative reaction in some quarters.”
No I don’t. I have NO problem with him saying whatever he wants (although a bit more of an introspective glance might be better from the pontiff). My point is that he should have known it would elicit the response it did. IF he didn’t know then the man IS an idiot.
I would certainly not “have Galileo be an idiot”. I’m fairly certain that Galileo and Darwin among others knew that when they started their debates they would invite severe criticism. Thus these men were not idiots (Although Jenner’s experiments on young phipps were…. well…. lets just say he’s lucky he didn’t have to face an ethical commitee)…..
On the whole Rory I would support the pope if he took a principled stand on the issue of the threat of fundamentalism (both islamic and christian) but he didn’t do that. Instead he gave a lecture quoting a 14th century text and then looked shocked and hurt that he was mis-represented…. No comparisson to the men you (rightly) point out made principled stands.
I’ve never known the Pope to be so popular with the less tolerant type of Prod!
Intolerance is the exclusive preserve of neither superprod nor supertaig.
I wonder if if it is coincidence that those who regard texts from the centuries B.C. as revealed truth have sympathy for a Pope that draws on thinking from the 14th century? I know, let’s reject both irrational anachronistic irrelevancies. Try thinking for ourselves for a change.
“I’ve never known the Pope to be so popular with the less tolerant type of Prod! ”
Poor Concerned Loyalist couldn’t quite get a handle on it!!
‘Try thinking for ourselves for a change.’
Well yes and it’s easier too if you keep your eyes and ears open and remember that we are living in the 21st century .
What’s the penalty /punishment for carrying a copy of the Koran through Vatican City in 2006 ? or comitting adultery
None
What’s the penalty /punishment for carrying a copy of the Bible through Riyadh -Saudi Arabia in 2006 or committing adultery ?
Several years in prison for the former , and death by stoning -modern high tech version with a lorry load of stones being tipped on top of those found guilty for the latter offence .
You will notice I said Saudi Arabia a-sovereign independent Arab -Islamic State and not a Taliban dominated region of Afghanistan. This same Saudi Arabia is an ally of the so called Christian right in the USA ?
Islam is perceived as an intolerant religion simply because that’s what it is in many areas of the world in 2006 . People can draw similarities between the power of religion in the Islamic world today and the power of the Church in medieval Europe if they like . I’m sure there are many .
However we live in 2006.
The Pope has no need to apologise .
http://www.phoenix-magazine.com
A very good cartoon. The pope is saying ”Am I not infallible?”
Answer from the Cardinal ”Surely you mean inflamable!”
Concerned Loyalist,
Why do you insist on referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Irish Free State/Banana Republic?
You just make yourself look infantile.
Posted by Fer Fecks Sake on Sep 22, 2006 @ 05:35 PM
I say it as I see it mate. “Eire” is a “banana republic” as far as I’m concerned. Do you understand the terminology alright or do you want me to elaborate?
If you are worried about Nazism, I suggest you should be concerned about the links with Neo Nazi groups (Combat 18 etc) with your own community.
Posted by Billy on Sep 22, 2006 @ 11:00 PM
That is nothing but black, republican propaganda to portray loyalists as bigots and oppressors. The name Sean Russell should be enough evidence that the old adage “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” is particularly appropriate at this juncture…
Concerned Loyalis
“CL
“I say it as I see it mate. “Eire” is a “banana republic” as far as I’m concerned. Do you understand the terminology alright or do you want me to elaborate?”
Please elaborate.
For me a banana republic would be a territory possibly controlled by someone like a brigadeer who likes wearing sunglasses, also the economy of the area would be based on one major cash crop, like maybe marijuana or cocoa or something like that.
“Islam is perceived as an intolerant religion simply because that’s what it is in many areas of the world in 2006.”
How is Protestantism perceived because of the murder of hundreds of NI Catholics by Protestants since 1966?
How is Catholicism perceived because of the murder of hundreds of NI Protestants by Catholics since 1969?
By focussing on some aspects of religious behaviour we will find all faiths somewhat intolerant.
This is a very old topic, but I have a few things I’d like to add:
1. just found my reference to the research I mentioned that indicates most of the Koran is lifted from the works of a small Jewish sect:
The Great Koran con trick – Martin Bright (New Statesman 10 December 2001)
http://www.newstatesman.com/200112100017
Some responses to this article:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200112170032
http://www.newstatesman.com/200201070020
There are other responses. Check New Statesman archives.
2. One hundred Islamic scholars have replied to Pope Benedict’s query:
http://www.islamicamagazine.com/media/pdf/open/b/openletter-8238DA.pdf
or
http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issue18/openletter18_lowres.pdf
There are other discussions about Islam and The Vatican on this site:
http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issue-18/vatican-focus.html
3. Lastly, I did enjoy this leader from the London Telegraph about Benedict’s birthday the other day:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/04/16/dl1603.xml