Rising tension over Drumcree ’3000′ parade..
The arson attack on Drumcree Church is an indication, perhaps of rising tensions around a parade planned for the weekend. The SDLP, Sinn Fein and the Garvaghy Road Residents’ Coalition have criticised the Parades Commission for not ruling it out of order. The Parades Commission however were fairly blunt in their response:
…this parade will not process past St John’s Catholic Church during a mass service and we commend the organiser for rescheduling the parade to avoid such an issue.Finally, the Commission is satisfied that the parade organiser has no intention of allowing this parade process past Drumcree bridge or anywhere near the vicinity of Garvaghy Road. Claims that suggest otherwise have the effect of heightening local tensions and creating inappropriate fear and anger throughout the local community.
Recognising the legacy of hurt in this area, it is still a source of regret for this Commission that such a significant gulf of mistrust continues to exist among those involved in the parading issue in Portadown.
How many years does this parade have to be held for it to become tradition?
I find it absurd that this is being allowed to happen, it bears no relevance to any dispute or protest. 3000 days??? Can we expect a similar request for a march on the 3642/3 day (10years)?
Its a good job my wife is unaware of this paradigm shift in celebrating or rememberance as it pretty close to 300 days since we got marrried but I prefer one year like most normal people.
an indication, perhaps of rising tensions
We should stop using euphemisms that seek to excuse and call it for what it is sectarian vandalism. We should not seek to imply excuses for ANY such behaviour from ANY sector.
Exactly how long does the Marching ‘Season’ last?
‘Exactly how long does the Marching ‘Season’ last?’
316 years so far.
“how long does the Marching ‘Season’ last?”
For as long as we exist
Nice fascistic response from Fair Deal. Suppose that ‘loyal’ ‘order’ parades were declared illegal (as has happened in the past)? Suppose that a democratically elected government decided to prohibit the whole grotesque spectacle? Supposedly the fact that punters like Fair Deal continued to exist would legitimise any then prima facie unlawful parading? It really gets my goat when loyalists start to talk in this bull-headed ‘we are the people’-type tone. You are citizens of a parliamentarily democratic state. You are subject to the same law as every other citizen of this statelet. The fact that you continue to exist is of precisely as much significance as the fact that any other group of punters continues to exist within this society – i.e. absolutely none.
“Suppose that ‘loyal’ ‘order’ parades were declared illegal (as has happened in the past)?”
The era when they were declared illegal was also the era when large swathes of the population where still denied things like the vote and when it was considered good to send children up chimneys. Also the fact they reversed it shows how it didn’t work. Democratic thinking (for most people at least) moved on and banning things became something to be avoided.
“Suppose that a democratically elected government decided to prohibit the whole grotesque spectacle?”
They can’t. There are limitations of power on any democratically elected government. What were you saying about fascistic?
“Supposedly the fact that punters like Fair Deal continued to exist would legitimise any then prima facie unlawful parading?”
They can put me in jail and I will sit there looking forward to my compensation claim from the European Court.
bem u sed
you’ve got a goat? Can we borrow it?
:0)
I’ll get me sash
‘Nice fascistic response from Fair Deal.’
Why is this fascistic? It is an obvious although to some incovenient fact that so long as Protestantism survives in Ireland the notion of protesting their faith will endure.
The form the marches takes must evolve and in order for this to do so it requires tolelance and compromise on both sides. The fact that Bemused regards such a deeply felt and central expression of protestant culture as a ‘grotesque spectacle’ only serves to feed the paranoia and extremism of those marchers. This is a little too convenient as demonisation of any and all orange marches is central to republican theology. Hate feeds Hate.
Gosh, the 2007 marching season has begun already.
I take back my gripe about storekeepers hitting me too early with Christmas.
‘so long as Protestantism survives in Ireland the notion of protesting their faith will endure.’
Protesting their FAITH – Really, that’s what it’s supposed to be?
And who are the protesting against – Catholics/Muslisms/Agnostics etc?
If Catholics/Muslims/Agnostics etc didn’t exist would Protestants still protest?
3000 days!! The parades commission deserves to stand in the corner with a large conical hat with a capital D stenclied on it.
Bemu s ed
“You are citizens of a parliamentary democratic state. You are subject to the same law as every other citizen of this statelet”.
Hmmmm, its a pity more Nationalists didn’t feel this way about the rule of law, on the few occasions when the Parades Commission does rule in favor of the Orange Order rather than resorting to extensive rioting at the sight of an Orange sash (Ardoyne anyone?)!! The hypocrisy is astounding!
“It really gets my goat when loyalists start to talk in this bull-headed ‘we are the people’-type tone”
This ‘we are the people’-type tone has worked successfully in the past for republicans. What did I say about hypocrisy?
And for what its worth, this Unionist regularly travels along the Garvaghy road (and the falls road) all year round and so far I’ve managed avoid persecuting ANY innocent
Sinn Fein activistsresidents. Go figure, eh?‘this Unionist regularly travels along the Garvaghy road (and the falls road) all year round and so far I’ve managed avoid persecuting ANY innocent Sinn Fein activists residents.’
End of Marching season report card – MUST TRY HARDER.
Protesting their FAITH – Really, that’s what it’s supposed to be?
Come on smcgiff – you’re more intelligent than that. I was applying the literal interpretation of protestantism in terms of protesting i.e. affirming and demonstrating their faith. It might look bizzarre and anachronistic but that’s at the heart of it. The issue is how to accommodate this legitimate expression of identity with the identity of others in our wee hole in the hedge. The more it is demonised the more room the fringe loonies do to make it so. As far as SF orchestrated residents groups are concerned that’s tactically very effective. It’s not a very sound recipie for good community relations but when were the shinners ever genuinely interested in that outside their cantons?
how long does the Marching ‘Season’ last?”
For as long as we exist
FD
It was actually a genuine question. However I could adopt your MOPE attitude and pose the question:
How long will the OO be barred from walking down Garvaghy Road?
and immediately rejoin with the answer:
For as long as we exist.
““Suppose that a democratically elected government decided to prohibit the whole grotesque spectacle?”
They can’t. There are limitations of power on any democratically elected government. What were you saying about fascistic?”
Oh can’t they? You’re obviously not familiar with your own ‘country’s’ constitution.
““Supposedly the fact that punters like Fair Deal continued to exist would legitimise any then prima facie unlawful parading?”
They can put me in jail and I will sit there looking forward to my compensation claim from the European Court.”
I’m afraid you’d be sorely dissapointed – check out the Article 15 derogation to the Convention.
“’Nice fascistic response from Fair Deal.’
Why is this fascistic? It is an obvious although to some incovenient fact that so long as Protestantism survives in Ireland the notion of protesting their faith will endure.”
Sorry BogExile – you’ve both failed to properly read my post and spectaculary miss the point. Fair Deal suggested that the marching season merely depended on their being marchers for it to continue – his logic being that it is for him and his fellow travellers to decide the ‘season’s’ duration each year. This is bollocks. Fair Deal and his mates antics are all subject to the law of the land – whatever that law is and however it may change. To contend that they are somehow immune from the writ of that law simply because they are ‘loyal’, british etc. etc. is fascist tripe pure and simple.
“Bemu s ed
“You are citizens of a parliamentary democratic state. You are subject to the same law as every other citizen of this statelet”.
Hmmmm, its a pity more Nationalists didn’t feel this way about the rule of law, on the few occasions when the Parades Commission does rule in favor of the Orange Order rather than resorting to extensive rioting at the sight of an Orange sash (Ardoyne anyone?)!! The hypocrisy is astounding!
“It really gets my goat when loyalists start to talk in this bull-headed ‘we are the people’-type tone”
This ‘we are the people’-type tone has worked successfully in the past for republicans. What did I say about hypocrisy?
And for what its worth, this Unionist regularly travels along the Garvaghy road (and the falls road) all year round and so far I’ve managed avoid persecuting ANY innocent Sinn Fein activists residents. Go figure, eh? ”
Oranges for Sale – who said I was a Nationalist? Oh – you did. Pathetic knee-jerk bigo t.
“…the notion of protesting their faith will endure”
Don’t think many have a problem with folks ‘protesting their faith’, but what has faith to do with militaristic parades made up of youths in mock uniforms (usually Prussian blue) playing fifes and drum, lines of marching men and pounding lambeg drums? There is a problem, I feel, between the overlying triumphalist culture of these parades and the deeply buried religious aspect of them…(assuming religion was ever the point of the Orange Orders). A long-term solution would be to strip these parades of the cultural elements that are militaristic (the fifes, uniforms, drums, etc.) and promote them as purely religious parades…shorn of all cultural, historical baggage…
In a near future of power sharing what message are these triumphalist (sectarian, by their nature) parades sending out anyway? Why the need for triumphalist parades if both sides, in power sharing, have come out on top, historically speaking? Would it be healthy in a power-sharing society for one side to continue to crow about some ancient battle and the supposed triumph of Protestantism? Hardly…
‘Fair Deal suggested that the marching season merely depended on their being marchers for it to continue – his logic being that it is for him and his fellow travellers to decide the ‘season’s’ duration each year. This is bollocks.’
Of course, FD could have just been making a throw away remark. Just a thought.
Dec
“It was actually a genuine question. However I could adopt your MOPE attitude
It was a genuine answer. We have been engaging in this tradition for a few hundred years so. We have also taken that tradition to the places we emigrated to around the world. Take the hint, it’s not about you, it’s what we do.
How exactly did I adopt mopery in those 6 words?
FD
I was assuming that there was a marching calendar in place (and no, not the thousand year version).
I may be labouring under a misaprehension, but I thought the season started in April and ended around August/September time. Hence the question. Or is the term ‘Marching season’ just an expression?
Take the hint, it’s not about you
Oh, if only that were true.
And please no lectures on protestantism…I really couldn’t give a f**k.
“We have been engaging in this tradition for a few hundred years so. We have also taken that tradition to the places we emigrated to around the world. Take the hint, it’s not about you, it’s what we do.”
You really don’t get it Fair Deal, do you?
Just because you’ve engaged in a tradition for a few hundred years and taken that tradition to the places that you’ve emigrated to around the world, doesn’t give you the right to engage in that activity in perpetuity. Just ask the fox-hunters.
Just ask the fox-hunters.
Or indeed PIRA
“Just ask the fox-hunters.
Or indeed PIRA”
Huh???
As a heavy milage driver I despise cyclists, imagine the hate i have for buggers who just walk on the middle of the road. As far as I was aware jay-walking is a crime, albeit not yet subject to capital punishment (Although it may be if I havent adequate braking distance).
I also love the notion of “its what we do” as somehow justifying actions. Potential classic defence for a serial murderer in there.
Dec
I didn’t realise you were looking specifics.
There is no official season. Beyond the fact that almost all the key dates fall in the summer months July and August, Parades happen primarily in the spring summer months from practicality, there are lighter evenings and the hope (usually vain) that the weather will be better.
ABOD parades actually mark the first and last big parade, at Easter Monday and in December, the shutting of the gates. Large OO and Black parades concentrate in July/August. There are then various smaller parades. Beyond the local parades prior to and after a big parade most of these other parades are church parades. The OO/RAPC/Black etc rules encourage lodges and districts to hold such parades. There is no set period for these to occur so practicality pushes them to the summer months. OO ordinances also encourage lodges to mark Reformation Sunday and the Gunpowder plot which fall in October and November respectively.
As regards band parades there is little formal co-ordiunation between them, with longer established bands having a usual date for their event.
Also as this is a protest event it falls outside the usual.
bemused
Their is no internationally recognised or protected right to hunt but there is such protection for assembly, association and speech.
Steaky
“jay-walking is a crime”
1. Participation in a parade is not jay-walking.
2. Jay-walking doesn;t apply in the UK
“In many countries, such regulations do not exist, and jaywalking is an unknown concept. In the United Kingdom and India, the practice of crossing roads wherever convenient is both commonplace and legal”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking
“Potential classic defence for a serial murderer in there.”
Murder is a crime. Freedom of speech associatioon and assembly are not. Typically hyperbolic response and pathetic attempt to demonise by association when self-obsession is challenged
bemused
“You really don’t get it Fair Deal, do you?”
No you don’t get it that it is not your personal prejudices don’t dictate what everyone else can do. I wasn’t put on this earth to please you and you weren’t put on this earth to please me. Deal with it.
“Their is no internationally recognised or protected right to hunt but there is such protection for assembly, association and speech.”
There really is very little point in flogging a dead horse here Fair Deal. The government of the day can decide to ban whatever sort of assembly, assocation or speech that they wish. If they couldn’t then they wouldn’t have executive power. If you don’t know that by now then there really is no point in debating with you.
I suppose the only entertaining thing to come from this thread is the hilariousl inability of loyalists to even start to comprehend the fact that if they continue to act the bollocks, the government may eventually tell them to fuck off. Wake up and smell the coffee chaps.
Fair deal,
there is no absolute protection “for assembly, association and speech” as you seem to think.
It is for the democratically elected government to decided if such assemblies etc. are in the interests of its citizens.
The relevant article from the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms that you seem to think will protect you. Note the second section:
Article 11 :
“Freedom of assembly and association
1 Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2 No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic
society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or
for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”
“In a near future of power sharing what message are these triumphalist (sectarian, by their nature) parades sending out anyway?”
Please explain why then the number of repubican parades has expolded in the last 2 years. They have brought their terrorist glorification to towns and villages never before exposed to such hatred.
We were feed the lie that the plethora of IRA parades this year was because of the anniversary of the hunger strikes. We were also assured that these “commemoration” would have wound up by the end of August i.e. the end of the hunger strike.
However after a quick browse on the parades commission website it is clear that these hate rising exercises are still in full swing. Why I ask does an IRA parade, in the middle of October, need to parade through the entirity of Enniskillen town? Namely why do republicans need to invent an untraditional parade which will pass the Enniskillen Cenotaph? This is the most sickening example of sectarian hatred I believe there is.
Fair Deal,
“The trigger for many of these new powers is clause 106 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act, hastily passed into law just before the election. The section removes the traditional legal distinction between “arrestable offence” (an offence punishable by imprisonment) and an ordinary offence (littering, jaywalking or blowing a whistle in an annoying manner).”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1709667,00.html
This internet malarky can be misleading sometimes but one of us is wrong. I am aware that Jaywalking is an american term but are you seriously telling me that if I decide to take a dander down the middle of the west link at rush hour then I am not liable to arrest?
Also thanks for informing me that our Indian friends can legally cross roads when convienient. Crossing roads, however, is slightly different to commandeering them for hours at a time.
Finally I am not aware what the UK has by way of a constitution regarding freedom of speech but I know that they have strong laws concerning incitement of hate.
This seems to be in direct contrast to the principle of freedom of speech which you seem to think makes the UK the big mouths Valhalla.
Upper Falls
Just for the record, and so fair deal knows I aint just having a go at him,
I am totally opposed to anyone, protestant, catholic, muslim, hindu, or Jedi blocking the roads. It doesnt matter to me if its the Orange Order, Hibs, Sinn Fein, Girl Guides, Rose of Tralee, opening ceremony of the Olympics or the Milk Cup.
Upper Falls: “Please explain why then the number of repubican parades has expolded in the last 2 years. They have brought their terrorist glorification to towns and villages never before exposed to such hatred. ”
If it’s gravy for a goose, its gravy for a gander. The near-absolute right to march has to go both ways, or neither.
Upper Falls: “However after a quick browse on the parades commission website it is clear that these hate rising exercises are still in full swing. Why I ask does an IRA parade, in the middle of October, need to parade through the entirity of Enniskillen town? ”
Who are you to question the right to march, Upper Falls? If marching is a right, as seems to be evidenced by previous comments, why should not all groups have equal right to the streets?
Upper Falls: “Namely why do republicans need to invent an untraditional parade which will pass the Enniskillen Cenotaph? This is the most sickening example of sectarian hatred I believe there is. ”
Every parade was untraditional at one time. Next year it will start to be tradition and you can relax, neh?
“Hmmmm, its a pity more Nationalists didn’t feel this way about the rule of law, on the few occasions when the Parades Commission does rule in favor of the Orange Order rather than resorting to extensive rioting at the sight of an Orange sash (Ardoyne anyone?)!! The hypocrisy is astounding!”
Or indeed Belfasts’ most senior Orangeman
“Belfast’s most senior Orangeman, County Grand Master Dawson Bailie, told the BBC on Monday that the Orange Order was not responsible for the weekend disorder.
When asked if the Order condemned the violence, he said: “As far as I’m concerned the people to blame for that are the secretary of state, the chief constable and the Parades Commission, fairly and squarely.”
He added: “I’m not condemning anything at this moment in time.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4236208.stm
Dread Cthulhu
“Every parade was untraditional at one time. Next year it will start to be tradition and you can relax, neh?”
My point exactly, before I got lost on Indian’s road crossing habits et al.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the gravy, goose, gander stuff but it kinda made me hungry also.
Thanks FD
Upper Falls:
Regarding your comments, do you not see that there is a large difference between an openly political march (i.e., those of Sinn Fein) and the quasi-political-religious-triumphalist (whatever you’re having yourself) parades of the Orange Orders? Personally, I find all parading to be naff but Sinn Fein have the right to organise political marches and demonstrations where they please (it is part of a functioning democracy, even if one disagrees with the politics being displayed). Orange Order marches, etc. do not fall under the same definition, as they cannot be said to be avowedly political, being basically triumphalist and sectarian at heart, and neither supporting nor representing one political party or political viewpoint, i.e., they do not represent the UUP, DUP nor the PUP…but only their own closed undemocratic clique.
Regarding the increased number of Sinn Fein marches this year, the 25th anniversary of the Hunger Strikers, perhaps one should wait until next year to make a comment about this…by which time it should be apparent that the large number of marches this year were merely to take political advantage of a (popular) anniversary. No doubt the need to take political advantage of the anniversary was the reason to expand the parade dates to October, etc. A political march in October of the anniversary year through the centre of one of the major towns in the six counties does not seem so outrageous to me. It would be the norm for any other state for a political party to stage rallies/parades such as this. The cenotaph is in the centre of Enniskillen, therefore, the parade will pass it…I would imagine it has no more significance than that. I do not imagine the march is being undertaken to promote ‘sectarian hatred’ as you suggest, and I would imagine that the wish to cause offence re the Enniskillen bombings is the furthest things from the organisers minds…the march being clearly very narrowly defined as a Hunger Strike memorial march (not a celebration of the IRA during the troubles or some such…)
Dread Cthulhu
“If it’s gravy for a goose, its gravy for a gander.”
Exactly I couldnt agree more. I hope all republicans will now show more respect to all loyal order parades when they continue to invent parades of their own.
When is the next orange order/uvf/uff parade in Belfast ?
Trying to get a few pics of the orders new banner commemorating uff commander Joe Bratty.
Upper Falls,
““If it’s gravy for a goose, its gravy for a gander.”
Exactly I couldnt agree more. I hope all republicans will now show more respect to all loyal order parades when they continue to invent parades of their own.”
Not wanting to speak for Dread, but I dont think that is what he meant . And is kinda hypocritical given your outpouring of disgust at republican parades.
Upper Falls: “Exactly I couldnt agree more. I hope all republicans will now show more respect to all loyal order parades when they continue to invent parades of their own.”
Steaky: “Not wanting to speak for Dread, but I dont think that is what he meant . And is kinda hypocritical given your outpouring of disgust at republican parades. ”
In a utopian setting, it would cut equally and in both directions. Likewise, one could argue that were it not for the need of orangemen to stick a finger in the eye of Nationalist/Catholic neighborhoods, perhaps Republican groups would not feel so obliged to return the favor.
Steaky
If the second point is questionable the first one still stands. The adoption of the term may have also meant some making the mistake that the same attitude/treatment applies. There are a few legal eagles around here maybe they can clarify for both our benefit.
George
I never said there was an absolute protection. However, bemused’s position of a total ban on Loyal Order parades goes well beyond the limitations upon the rights.
Dec
Your welcome.
“Trying to get a few pics of the orders new banner commemorating uff commander Joe Bratty.”
Brian
There is no order banner commemorating Joe Bratty. Retract that comment immediately
Fair Deal,
correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to think that the Orange Order marches are within the limits.
This seems to imply that banning the march down the Garvaghy Road, for example, wasn’t within the democratically elected government’s rights.
“They can put me in jail and I will sit there looking forward to my compensation claim from the European Court.”
Maybe you could tell me which banning of marches in the past violated the ECHR?
My own view is that there is probably zero of getting any compensation claim because an Orange Order march was rerouted for the sake of public order, safety etc.
Otherwise, I’m sure we would have seen the OO trying it years ago.
“There is no order banner commemorating Joe Bratty. Retract that comment immediately”
You would be better contacting UTV and its reporter Ivan Little who did the evening news report on the evening of the 12th July 2006.
The report showed ‘a new banner’ commemorating uff South Belfast Brigadeer, Joe Bratty being carried by ‘his’ lodge.
I presume this mass murderer was a member of the orange order when he was killing women & children during the 80′s & 90′s.
Funny that none of his brethren had any issues with the fact he was a mass murderer.
Retract that !!
George
“the Orange Order marches are within the limits.”
That is for the courts to decide.
Brian
Ivan Lyttle got it wrong. It was not a OO/Lodge banner. It belonged to a flute band.
fair deal
Exactly correct. It was a rouge flute band who carried it. I am informed that it was produced in the middle parade without the consent of the lodge.
You make the claim that Joe was a mass murder, I take it that you are drawing your conclusions from the fact that he was convicted of none?
I also trust that you will condemn with the same gusto the glorification of all republican terrorists?
I can say I condemn Joe Bratty for his UDA membership and all other paramilitarys.
Off topic a bit, but as marching bands, to they also participate in the piping competitions which are run across Ireland and the UK
Any of them over at the Inter-Celtic Festival in Lorient there recently ?