WHEN the Irish rugby team takes on Italy at Ravenhill next August, there will be no rendition of God Save The Queen, with the IRFU insisting on the neutral Ireland’s Call instead. The Union flag will be replaced with the IRFU flag as well. There’s been no complaint from the Ulster branch, but then rugby fans have always been an enlightened bunch(!)
This reads as if a mad picaresque tale. Myers as first a reporter for RTÉ and then as a freelance journalist with no real experience, finds himself wandering into savagery as he hastens north as the Troubles explode. A soldier dies next to him; he witnesses an IRA ambush; he sees children shot to death [...] read our review »
Fair play to Iain, he managed to get over 2,200 people voting in his poll for the top Northern Irish blogs this year… We (just, I imagine) retained our top spot, with Splintered coming straight in at number 2, no doubt his pet subject du jour will have garnered him a lot of fans… I’ve [...] read our review »
Munsterman –
———————–
Would you be in favour of an all-Ireland soccer team ?
———————-
Michael Robinson -
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I’m not a big soccer fan but on the face of it, it would seem like a good idea. However I would think that there are a lot of vested interests amongst the clubs and FAI/IFA blazeratti.
A combined league would presumeably have reduced Champions League and UEFA slots and a combined organisation would mean less jobs for the blazers and reduced opportunity for junkets.
Turkeys voting for Christmas?
——————————
I can’t stand this hoary old chestnut about ‘vested interests’ and ‘blazers’. I’m a Northern Ireland football supporter, I’ve followed my team across Europe, and have been going to matches since I was eight years old. I don’t want to see my team abolished. Nether do the great majority of NI fans. If you want to see the major interest group opposed to the abolition of the NI team, it’s THE FANS. And that’s the way it should be.
Even if I and others were to contemplate getting rid of the team we’ve followed for years, this move by the IRFU illustrates exactly why it would never work, or how we’d be treated if it did. For God’s sake rugby is supposedly the ‘middle class’ sport above all the political divisions on this island, yet the IRFU is now essentially taking a nationlaist stance, using RoI symbols at matches in the RoI but unable to stomach UK symbols, apparently happily treating their northern unionist support base like perpetual second class citizens to increase their commercial appeal to southern nationalists. Who in their right mind could possibly suggest an all-Ireland football team would work?
I remarked (slightly facetiously) a couple of years ago, and it applies even more now, that the type of southern nationalist opinion that seems to be driving this is very strange indeed – there’s an All-Ireland rugby team, and they attempt to turn it into a Republic of Ireland team; there’s a Republic of Ireland football team and they attempt to treat it as an All-Ireland team…
Rugby is a minority game in Ireland (32 counties MissFitz). Anytihng that undermines rugby is good because it is not really needed except as a sop to Unionists. Gaelic rules. Rugby, the garrisson game, has had its day. And so too has Association football with the 4-0 thrashing. The NI team is equally pathetic. Let the Orangmen have their own rugby team, and play Danny Boy, Danny LeRue or whatever. They might even beat Romania, in time.
New, AGREED common flag, emblem, protocol for
all-Ireland teams.
Tony W – ‘Rugby, the garrisson game, has had its day.’
Absolute gash has it. Lets have a look at how the main ‘garrison games’ line up against the all conquering world wide success of the GAA
Rugby 22 million watching the World Cup Final
Football 284 million watching the final.
How many watched the All Ireland final?
(Honestly a question as could not find a link anywhere.)
Any one any ideas about the 2003 cricket world cup. Got to be around the 20 million again.
“rugby is supposedly the ‘middle class’ sport”
Precisely – it is the middleclass who are deserting unionism in droves. These people travel abroad and know that they are ‘Paddy’ wherever they go, especially in Britain.
They spend weekends in Dublin or Donegal and know that no-one knows or cares about their religion or, in most cases, their politics. Moreover they see the size and multiplicity of outside influences on Irish society, together with it’s increasing economic and political strength.
The nonsense we see on this site denying the decline of Britain and British influence in the world simply reinforces their feelings of Irishness, whatever that means to them.
Munsterman – there was an AGREEMENT which has now been broken and reflects previous AGREEMENTS which were broken e.g. hockey where northerners used to be free to play for the GB team but those who do are now told they are not welcome in the ‘Irish’ team, an all island soccer team which was split by the *southern* association etc etc etc.
“there’s a Republic of Ireland football team and they attempt to treat it as an All-Ireland team…”
The republic team has players from all over the island, including lads from Down, Derry & Armagh.
So to many it is an all Ireland team, whose support and players come from all parts of the island.
lib – its interesting that you believe spending weekends in dublin or donegal is ‘deserting’ unionism. Im off to the states in a few weeks, does this make me a yank ?
If no one there cares about our religion or politics then thats even better – as they wont mind the continued existence of NI as seperate.
Anyway – congratulations on a post that has absolutely no relevance to the topic in hand and takes us down the old them and us route.
I take it that means you have no response to the criticisms of the IRFUs decision.
terry – there were a fair few English players as well – does this make the ROI actually an all islands team ?
mnob :
Thanks for confirming the fact that you welcome discussion on all-Ireland soccer teams on this thread – but only if the contribution supports your view.
New AGREED flag, emblem, protocol for all-Ireland teams.
lib2016 -
———————–
Precisely – it is the middleclass who are deserting unionism in droves. These people travel abroad and know that they are ‘Paddy’ wherever they go, especially in Britain.
They spend weekends in Dublin or Donegal and know that no-one knows or cares about their religion or, in most cases, their politics. Moreover they see the size and multiplicity of outside influences on Irish society, together with it’s increasing economic and political strength.
The nonsense we see on this site denying the decline of Britain and British influence in the world simply reinforces their feelings of Irishness, whatever that means to them.
—————————
Hate to break it to you, but I’d probably count as pretty damn middle-class, having been brought up on the Gold Coast and had an Oxbridge education – as indeed would my rugger-bugger brother the medical student, who plays club rugby in the top Ulster division, has played at Ravenhill a few times in his career, is a big Ulster and Ireland fan, and is very pissed off at the IRFU over this…
Cathal “NI may be an insignificant and unwanted part of the UK but it is not a country.”
Wrong. You are confusing a “country” with a nation state”. Among the definitions of a “country” is “A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture.” Northern Ireland therefore qualifies as a country.
munsterman “If both Associations agreed to field one Ireland team along the lines of the rugby team, FIFA would not prevent it. All the emblems, flags, protocol etc. would have to be agreed upon in advance.”
FIFA would almost certainly reject it. There was a proposal to enter a joint Korean team in the past and that was very quickly rejected. Equally the day Montenegro went their separate way from Serbia, FIFA dropped all reference to Montenegro. FIFA is much stricter on this than organisations like the IOC etc.
Ironically of course the reason why there are two Irish football teams is that the IFS wanted it that way and weren’t prepared to have a united Irish team play in Belfast and use UK symbols, which I think brings us around is a perfectly formed circle.
Also your suggestion of an all-island flag is fine, but first things first, and NI is more in need of an agreed new flag. If ppl can agree a badge for the PSNI, a flag should be doable.
We should put the game first – in both senses.
Seriously – have the game first and then the anthems – just wait and see how few stick around to chew the tunes in preference to hiking the pints.
mnob,
I’ll try to break it gently to you. Northern Ireland is part of Ireland and once you get past Larne the Tricolour is the symbol of Ireland just as the Soldier’s Song is the national anthem.
I believe refusing to vote for unionist parties is ‘deserting unionism’ and that the post unionist middleclass are doing so because unionism no longer reflects their identity just as Sinn Fein doesn’t reflect it either.
Nobody has a monopoly on wisdom and nobody knows what ‘Irishness’ will be in the future, nor where the middleclass will end up. Will they plumb for being European and tell us both to go to Hell?
It will be us, all of us who decide whether Northern Ireland will have a separate identity for much longer.
In spite of 80 years of what was intended as a temporary arrangement some facts don’t change. GSTQ is a foreign anthem and is viewed as such by the big wide world, which includes by the way the population of seven of the nine Ulster counties.
Try and get out of your ghetto viewpoint sometime. It really might help.
As for the IRFU decision – a commendable effort to deal with a divisive issue. Good for them!
Keith M :
1. All-Ireland soccer team
“FIFA would almost certainly reject it”.
So, none of us knows for certain.
Lots of things seem impossible – before you try.
2. ” your suggestion of an all-island flag is fine, but first things first…”
There are many all-Ireland teams in operation in many sports today – so it is not a hypothetical situation.
lib2016
“I believe refusing to vote for unionist parties is ‘deserting unionism’ and that the post unionist middleclass are doing so because unionism no longer reflects their identity”
You must be getting pretty desperate now you are only ten years off confirming the fool you actually are as evidenced by the posts you make on here.
What do you know about the Northern Irish unionist middle class ?
I would be surprised if you had ever met one let alone know one.
What this shows of the unionist middle class can be interpreted two ways.
Either its the viewpoint, among many of my unionist middle class friends, who have believed the lie that they have something to be guilty about and are embarrased by being called a unionist
(incidentally IJP on another thread confirmed loudly on another thread that although he was British he wasnt a Unionist – but he didnt explain himself)
The kind of unionists nationalist like – ie who will agree about how horrid they have been and will sit in the corner and be agood boy.
Alternatively it is just another example of inherent reasonableness in mainstream unionism that simply doesnt want to rock the boat.
I dont agree with either but it should shatter any of the nonsense we read on here about the inherent beligerence within unionism.
However they are none the less unionist and a border pole tomorrow (like every opinion pole before it ) would have 90% + of them voting for the Union.
You couldnt say the same about Northern Irish Catholics and their loyalty to a separatist state – perhaps they are fully aware of the inherent reasonableness of the majority of tehir unionist neighbours as well ?
munsterman “”. Since this is a hypothetical situation so by it’s nature no one can be certain. However given FIFA’s record it would seem highly unlikely, even if the two organisations could agree it, which itself it highly unlikely.
“There are many all-Ireland teams in operation in many sports today – so it is not a hypothetical situation.” Many? I can think of three; Rugby Union (being debated here), Cricket (which has defined it’s own agreed symbols) and Rugby League (likewise). Other sports where there is an “Ireland” team, it represents the republic only, but N.I. people with Irish passports can participate.
One the other hand an agreed flag for N.I. is needed far beyond the sporting arena and should be a top priority.
John East Belfast :
“..inherent reasonableness of the majority of their unionist neighbours as well…? ”
Is a new agreed flag,protcol,emblem etc. for all-Ireland teams reasonable ?
Responses to pure rugby threads here struggle to make it into double figures but hey, mention bloody anthems and the whole crowd turns up. How many actually give a flying fukk about rugby (Michael Rob & a few others excepted)? Not many, I’d venture.
Anyway, on a slightly related topic, Ken Goodall RIP. Never saw him in action but he sounded like he was some player.
Munsterman – we had an agreement – it was broken why should we agree to the next step in the ratchet ?
Whats wrong with the propsal for no state emblems at any game given any all ireland team would comprise people from more than 1 state ?
Yes the thread took a path I didnt like – but it appears i was powerless to stop it
Are you saying that I should lose the debate by default by not participating in it ?
Nick J: GAA rules in Ireland. Ireland has four clubs that have made a European mark. It is nowhere in the race for allegience in Ireland. It gets media coverage because of hte ads it might generate, not for anything else. Rugby will die in Ireland soon. The GAA will thrive. Association football will get stronger in England but die in Ireland and Scotland.
The Rugby World Cup is a joke and genertates little intererst anywhere. In Ireland, GAA rules. Rugby comes begging to Croke Park, not vice versa. Geddit?
As regards rugby and cricke,t I don’t give a shit what whites play in the former Rhodesia or wat Mr Hare and his racist ilk get up to. In Ireland, they are nothings. The more rugby flinders, the better.
A previous poster put it well. A thread on rugby and no one gives a shit. A thread on GSTQ and all the Unionist has beens come out.
The voice of prejudice there in all its nasty ‘glory’…
Barney,
“I look forward to seeing the numerous unionist Ireland fans who visit Dublin to follow the team accepting the kind hospitality extended to them by people they would normally cross the street to avoid.”
Who like?
“It’s shite. What’s right with it?”
It might be shite, but it’s neutral.
“Anyway… it seems you have no particular loyalty to GSTQ but are driven instead by a haterd of A naB.”
I consider GSTQ to be my national anthem, but feel it an inappropriate anthem to play at Ravenhill.
I have no hatred for AnaB and have stood respectfully for it on several occassions in Lansdowne Road – it is not, however, my national anthem.
A neutral anthem only should be the order of the day, wherever the Ireland rugby pitch take the field.
“Not sure if that could be considered as progress but at least there’s a degree of honesty in it.”
Oh, I think compromise and mutual respect are both progressive and honest aspirations.
“Building An Ireland Of Equals”
An an Irishman born and bred, AnaB and the Tricolor never were, are not, and never will be my national anthem and flag.
Is that ever going to sink in?
Realist :
“An an Irishman born and bred, AnaB and the Tricolor never were, are not, and never will be my national anthem and flag.”
So, as suggested, new agreed flag, emblem, protocol for all-Ireland teams.
Is it a possible way forward or not ?
Munsterman,
“So, as suggested, new agreed flag, emblem, protocol for all-Ireland teams”
I’m ok with Ireland’s Call only (shite tho it might be!), and a four provinces IRFU flag, being used officially at all Ireland rugby internationals.
I cannot see how anyone could consider that to be in any way unfair.
Does it not promote harmony and unity?
Realist :
“..I’m ok with Ireland’s Call only (shite tho it might be!), and a four provinces IRFU flag, being used officially at all Ireland rugby internationals…”
One option, certainly.
Would you be interested in an all-Ireland soccer team or would that be a non-runner for you ?
Munsterman,
“Would you be interested in an all-Ireland soccer team or would that be a non-runner for you ?”
I have no interest in the concept an All Ireland soccer team, or an All UK team.
I am very happy and proud to support a team of players from Northern Ireland compete at international level.
I have invested a lot of time, money and emotion in doing so.
Neither would I be interested in my club favourites merging with anyone else, even tho in theory it would make them a better proposition.
It’s a passion thing.
Nickj,
‘How many watched the All Ireland final? ‘
IIRC approx 680,000 .
‘An an Irishman born and bred, AnaB and the Tricolor never were, are not, and never will be my national anthem and flag. ‘
Then you’re not Irish . Just because you were born in a stable does’nt make you a horse . You could however qualify for ‘mule’ status
The Irish Tricolour /Soldiers Song Amhrain na Bhfiann is associated with Ireland – The Union Jack and GSTQ are associated with the UK, England , Britain etc etc . It’s that simple . Just because you quack like a duck, talk like a duck and live like a duck doesn’t mean you’re not a swan !
‘How many watched the All Ireland final? ‘ IIRC approx 680,000 .
Surely higher than that? That’s less than the Eurovision Song Contest.
Greenflag :
Please suggest your Re-partition Apartheid proposals to the PD’s at the next election so you can them wiped off the map permanently – and do the vast majority of people in the Republic a favour. ( apart from preventing the “Bertie Bowl “, they have achieved nothing ).
Realist :
So, you can support some all-Ireland teams – but not others……
If that’s the way you see it, that’s your choice.
Anyway, thanks for rapping with me over some of these ideas.
By the way, don’t know if you intend to go to Croke Park in 2007 for the Ireland v England and Ireland v France games – but they promise to be special occasions and Croke Park is truly impressive.
Greenfield,
“Then you’re not Irish”
Oh yes I am.
Sorry it’s a problem for you.
“Just because you were born in a stable does’nt make you a horse”
I think being born and bred on the island of Ireland makes me Irish.
“It’s that simple”
You see, the problem that nationalist/republican Ireland cannot grasp is that it’s not that simple at all.
Dare I say, how very mono ethnic/cultural of you.
In fairness, a trait to be found in so many of my fellow Irish.
Occassional Commentator,
“So, you can support some all-Ireland teams – but not others……”
Yes.
I was born in Northern Ireland, and teams representing Northern Ireland are my first love every time.
Where a Northern Ireland team exists (eg football), I support the Northern Ireland team.
In sports where this is no, and never has been, a Northern Ireland team (eg, Rugby), I support that team.
“If that’s the way you see it, that’s your choice”
It is the way I see it – as do many of us in Northern Ireland.
“Anyway, thanks for rapping with me over some of these ideas.”
Not a problem, and thank you too.
“By the way, don’t know if you intend to go to Croke Park in 2007 for the Ireland v England and Ireland v France games – but they promise to be special occasions and Croke Park is truly impressive.”
I don’t know whether I will be attending or not -the actions of the IRFU will largely determine that – but they will be very special occassions.
My wife visted Croke Park for the Robbie Williams concert recently and was suitably impressed – by both Robbie and Croker.
Then you’re not Irish . Just because you were born in a stable does’nt make you a horse . You could however qualify for ‘mule’ status
Wollen Sie sich mehr Lebensraum aussuchen?
‘Oh yes I am Irish. ‘
Stop kidding yourself . There’s nothing wrong with being a Brit . We have tens of thousands of Brits working and living in the Irish Republic . Good people too .
‘Sorry it’s a problem for you. ‘
Not a problem for me. Why would it be ?
‘ I think being born and bred on the island of Ireland makes me Irish.’
Being born in a stable doesn’t make you Jesus Christ .
‘ You see, the problem that nationalist/republican Ireland cannot grasp is that it’s not that simple at all. ‘
Wrong . It’s very simple . Politically you are either British or Irish . Culturally you can be whatever you feel comfortable with . That’s your business .
The problem that Unionists cannot grasp is that they will never attain majority rule ever again in Northern Ireland without a fair ‘repartition’ of NI. It’s that simple .Paisley or no Paisley .
‘Dare I say, how very mono ethnic/cultural of you. ‘
I’m just calling a spade a spade . I’m respecting your political Britishness. Is’nt that what Unionists want?
Young Fogey
‘Wollen Sie sich mehr Lebensraum aussuchen? ‘
Of course . After the annexation of Northern Ireland the ‘supremacist ethnocentric Irish /Polish/Chinese / Lithuanian/Bosnian/ African/ Alliance is planning to invade the SE of England and make London and the Home Counties the 33rd and 34th counties respectively
Munsterman ,
‘Please suggest your Re-partition Apartheid proposals to the PD’s at the next election’
No need . Mr Hain is already laying the groundwork with his ‘repartitioning’ of Northern Ireland’s District Councils .
Kensei,
Surely higher than that? That’s less than the Eurovision Song Contest.
In the report below a figure of 743,000 is quoted as viewers so aded to those who were in Croke Park over 800,000 or 20% of the total ROI population . As you can see from the report below RTE has had to give up it’s exclusive rights so viewer figures may increase in the future .
For decades, RTE and the GAA signed off on broadcasting deals with a gentlemen’s handshake. The state broadcaster would agree to screen the two All-Ireland finals each year and maybe one or two other high-profile games. The GAA would collect a nominal fee in return.
There was no bidding process, no legal entanglements and no actual contract.
Indeed, the first time the two bodies signed a contract of substance was in March, when RTE secured exclusive live rights for GAA championship matches for the next three years. The deal had taken months to negotiate and had been complicated by the arrival of Setanta, Ireland’s new dedicated sports channel.
Although it was in operation for just a few months, Setanta wanted a cut of the GAA action, and was willing to pay for the pleasure. With two potential suitors, the GAA was able to raise the stakes and negotiate the best deal. RTE retained exclusive live rights, but Setanta and TG4 secured the rights to show repeats of championship games and to screen a midweek highlights programme.
Setanta also obtained the rights for the National League (along with TG4), enabling it to broadcast games all year.
It is the first time that a commercial station will broadcast the national games in Ireland.
The importance of the GAA to RTE and the other television stations cannot be overstated. Last year, Gaelic games accounted for five of the top ten viewing audiences for RTE – with the All-Ireland football final attracting 743,000 viewers. It is understandable that the broadcaster was so keen to retain exclusive championship rights.
RTE is facing pressure across all sports, not just GAA. From rugby to football and from Formula One to golf, the state broadcaster is finding itself competing against Sky Sports, Setanta, TV3 and TG4.
Setanta, which operates seven satellite channels in Ireland, Britain, Europe and the US, has emerged as a major player. It upped the stakes last week when it hired Trevor East, the Sky Sports executive, in advance of a possible bid for the next Premiership rights contract.
Although East will join the group’s British division, it puts Setanta in a strong position to obtain the Irish broadcasting rights for the Premiership when the contract comes up for renewal. Setanta already broadcasts Formula One, European Tour golf, Scottish football and Leinster schools rugby.
Another sporting body to have made the most of this newfound competition is the Football Association of Ireland (FAI). In 2003, the FAI signed a €7.5 million deal with Sky Sports for exclusive rights for the Irish football team’s home fixtures.
However, the government was forced to intervene after public outrage over the prospect of a British commercial channel broadcasting Irish internationals. Legislation was passed stating that the government could designate certain sporting events that must be broadcast on terrestrial television, including Ireland’s home and away fixtures in the European Championships.
After a short standoff, the FAI restarted negotiations with RTE, and the two bodies signed a €5.5 million deal earlier this year. Before the Sky Sports debacle, RTE was offering about €2.5 million for the rights.
“It just shows what happens when you bring competition in the marketplace,” said one senior FAI source. “RTE cannot afford to be complacent any more.”
Tony – ‘Association football will get stronger in England but die in Ireland and Scotland.’
What will the jocks do then, back to caber tossing and haggis eating I suppose. Judging by the amount of celtic and rangers shirts on the streets of NI, and Celtic news coverage in the ROI interest has certainly not diminished.
‘The Rugby World Cup is a joke and genertates little intererst anywhere.’
From my previous post 22 million watched the Rucby World cup final. About 33 times more than the amount of people that watched the All Ireland by all acounts. It generates interest all around the
As for ‘I don’t give a shit what whites play in the former Rhodesia’, to label a game where most of its follwers come from the Indian sub continent rascist is beyond me.
Greenflag,
“Stop kidding yourself”
I’m not.
“There’s nothing wrong with being a Brit”
I know. I’m very happy to be Irish and a British citizen.
“We have tens of thousands of Brits working and living in the Irish Republic . Good people too”
I’m sure the majority of them are.
“Not a problem for me”
Good.
“Why would it be ?”
I don’t know – maybe because I’m Irish and a British citizen, it goes against your view of “Irishness”?
“Being born in a stable doesn’t make you Jesus Christ”
Don’t get your point. Can different types of horses not be born in the same stable?
“Wrong . It’s very simple . Politically you are either British or Irish”
Wrong – the GFA recognises that I can be both.
I’m Irish and British.
“The problem that Unionists cannot grasp is that they will never attain majority rule ever again in Northern Ireland without a fair ‘repartition’ of NI”
I’m not a supporter of majority rule in Northern Ireland, nor do I think repartition is a solution to our problems on the island.
“It’s that simple .Paisley or no Paisley”
I destest Paisley, so you’re probably on your soapbox preaching to the wrong audience.
I consider him to be one one the root causes of the recent conflict in Ireland. A sectarian bigot, who stoked the flames of hatred.
“I’m just calling a spade a spade”
Good man – just don’t patronise me by telling me what kind of a spade I know I am.
“I’m respecting your political Britishness”
Thanks.
“Is’nt that what Unionists want?”
Yes.
Why can you not respect that I’m an Irishman like you?
Here’s the concept.
English and British
Scottish and British
Welsh and British
Irish and British.
It’s not rocket science.
Born on the island of Ireland, here to stay and forever a British citizen.
‘maybe because I’m Irish and a British citizen, it goes against your view of “Irishness”? ‘
My view of’ Irishness’ as expressed on this thread is political . Your politics are British not Irish .
‘Why can you not respect that I’m an Irishman like you? ‘
Because you’re not an Irishman like me . Respect anyway has nothing to do with it . Truth has . You are a British subject of the Queen and a citizen of the UK and a resident of Northern Ireland which is part of the UK at this time . You are a Unionist which means you are loyal to the UK and that is the State to which you belong and aspire to remain a part of . That means you are British in the political sense. The fact that you may be of of Hindu, Protestant ,Catholic or Jewish background or even non denominational is immaterial . Your politics is based on allegiance to the British Crown . Ireland to you is a region . Ireland to me is a country .
‘Here’s the concept.
English and British
Scottish and British
Welsh and British
Irish and British. ‘
Surely you meant to say Northern Ireland Unionist and British . Maybe it is after all ‘rocket science ‘ for you.
Born on the island of Ireland,
Congratulations to both your parents, assuming of course —- well done
‘ here to stay ‘
Wonderful enjoy the craic
‘and forever a British citizen. ‘
Sorry chief nothing lasts forever- and especially not British or indeed Irish citizens . We are all sooner or later worm food
Your fellow British citizens may also not appreciate your eternal loyalty as much as you might wish I’m sorry to say.
My apologies if I come across as less than respectful of Unionists or to be specific their politics . That is not my intent. I don’t criticise Unionists for being Unionists per se .
My ‘criticism’ is directed at the Unionist political leadership which has failed the Unionist people of NI by failing to face up to the political facts of life on the island of Ireland . Unionism has a long (200 years) and sorry record in Ireland in that regard .
The only ‘honourable’ position left for political unionism in NI is that of trying to achieve a fair repartition of NI . As no Unionist politician has yet shown any gumption in that regard you can understand why ‘respect’ for Unionist politicians at least from my perspective is on a level lower than that for solicitors , jehovah’s witnesses , clerics and televangelists !
No wonder HMG treats unionist politicians with scant regard
At this stage I’m beginning to doubt if even a ‘fair repartition’ can save political unionism on this island .
‘I’m not a supporter of majority rule in Northern Ireland, ‘
Majority rule would be fine with some built in safeguards for the Irish minority in a repartitioned NI. Given the current ‘demographics’ and the local political history since 1920 simple majority rule is just not tenable as there is insufficient constitutional legitimacy within the present NI State to support it . Majority rule with built in safeguards for a British Unionist minority would be fine also in a larger 30 county size Republic . I have nothing against voluntary coalitions of like minded parties or even temporary voluntary arrangements between willing parties which are ‘unalike ‘ . But the would be NI Assembly set up is ‘undemocratic’ and IMO merely cements ‘sectarian politics’ and locks both sets of political rats , in separate cages within a slightly large cage . Neither will thus have any room to ‘grow’ and thus a stunted political future for NI will be the inevitable result.
‘ nor do I think repartition is a solution to our problems on the island. ‘
You are entitled to your view . I happen to believe that the ‘status quo’ of the present just means a continuing generation or more of political uncertainty and instability. That in my view is the worst possible outcome for ALL the people of Northern Ireland – Irish and British alike. I see a fair Repartition as the only practical way to resolve the ‘irreconcilable’ difference in constitutional aspirations between Nationalism and Unionism on this island .
‘I destest Paisley, so you’re probably on your soapbox preaching to the wrong audience.’
He’s a product of the dark side of backward looking narrow Unionism of another age. A direct descendant of the mentality of roaring Hannah etc etc .
‘I consider him to be one one the root causes of the recent conflict in Ireland. A sectarian #####, who stoked the flames of hatred. ‘
He was’nt alone . He just had the loudest voice .
BTW ,Realist , just to clarify I’m not saying you cannot be both British and Irish in a cultural /linguistic sporting or other non purely political sense .
To be Irish in a political sense has historically been associated with breaking the connection with England or at least aspiring to break that connection . Your religion or lack of it or your ethnic origin was/is immaterial . Thus Erskine Childers -Irish Republican (Anglo Irish ex RAF) was politically Irish (his son was elected ROI President )whereas Edward Carson ( of the Dublin Carsoni’s (an immigrant Italian family) was politically British .
“BTW ,Realist , just to clarify I’m not saying you cannot be both British and Irish in a cultural /linguistic sporting or other non purely political sense”
Sure you just keep telling me what I am, and can be Greenflag.
I would’nt want you to have any doubts
Anyway quit worrying about your identity .You are what you are and you can be whatever you want to be . Just don’t expect everybody to see you as you see yourself .
There’s nothing wrong with Unionists that reasoning with them won’t aggravate
Aye, them there Unionists are awful hotheaded bigots. Irreformable Afrikaners, the lot of them, eh.
Greenflag,
“Anyway quit worrying about your identity”
I’m not.
“You are what you are and you can be whatever you want to be”
Gee, thanks.
“Just don’t expect everybody to see you as you see yourself”
Why would I care one iota about what others see me as?
I’m not asking anyone, I’m telling them what I am.
“There’s nothing wrong with Unionists that reasoning with them won’t aggravate”
There was silly me thinking unionists were the Irishmen that nationalists/republicans wished to be “united” with in a 32 County, Irish State.
Funny old world.
‘ Irreformable Afrikaners’
Apparently not . Afrikaners got themselves a leader with a 20 th century mindset – De Klerk . Unionists are still digging around in the 17th century .
Question:
What’s the difference between a Northern Irish Catholic (NIC) – a Northern Ireland Protestant (NIP) and an Englishman (John Bull)?
Answer :
The difference is that when you smack the NIC on the head with a sledge hammer you have to tell him/her to fall down . When you smack the NIP on the head with the same sledge hammer you have to explain to him or her slowly why he/she must fall down .
But when you smack John Bull on the head with the same sledge hammer he say’s
‘Thanks very much mate -that were nice can you do it again please ‘
JB is of course the eejit who keeps paying for all the *#*#*### in NI.
‘ Why would I care one iota about what others see me as? ‘
Ideally it should not matter . However in NI from what I read the graveyards are full of people who were seen for what they were and were not .
‘There was silly me thinking unionists were the Irishmen that nationalists/republicans wished to be “united” with in a 32 County, Irish State. ‘
I don’t doubt it . It’s just wishing . Some of us have stopped ‘wishing’ a long time ago . We’ve become how shall I put it? Realists
‘Funny old world.’
Naw it’s hilarious -But you’ll never get out of it alive and neither will I
“However in NI from what I read the graveyards are full of people who were seen for what they were and were not”
Greenflag,
And I can assure you, I’ll not be changing what I am for no man. Whatever the price.
“But you’ll never get out of it alive and neither will I”
Well, isn’t that a relief.