judgement has to be made..
I was disappointed [but not that surprised? - Ed] to see Eamonn McCann, regular Belfast Telegraph columnist and occasional election candidate, in the middle of this particular story. After a long running campaign repeatedly failed to achieve its aim of forcing prominent American company Raytheon to leave his beloved Maiden City – and take their software engineering jobs with them – today he and 8 others resorted to violence, stormed the offices, threw computer equipment and documents from a first storey window and were subsequently arrested. There’s a video report there too. The Belfast Telegraph has some quotes from earlier in the day. Update The 9 have been charged with aggravated burglary with intent to cause unlawful damage and unlawful assembly – BBC report – and remanded in custody until 7 September. More 8 of the 9 men are released on bailFrom the Belfast Telegraph.. it’s not clear whether the flag was already in the office, or if the self-appointed judges brought it with them.
An American flag was also set alight and a glass door smashed as debris rained down from a second floor window and littered the area outside.
A banner was unfurled from inside the building, reading: “Raytheon has been decommissioned”.
A dozen more people protesting over the deaths of Lebanese civilians remained outside, with placards bearing anti-war and anti-Raytheon slogans.
Speaking from inside, as dozens of uniformed police gathered, Mr McCann said: “The people of Derry cannot go on feeling shock and horror as they watch TV screens and do nothing,
“I certainly would not welcome an arrest and prosecution, who would? But judgment has to be made. People felt they had no option but to take this form of direct action.”
Eamonn may not welcome arrest, but that’s what he got… the prosecution, for trespass and criminal damage I’d guess, should now follow. It’s worth noting the attempt to frame this within the context of what’s happening in Lebanon now… despite fact that the same group was lobbying Derry City Council to force Raytheon out of the city three years ago
I don’t share your disappointment on this issue, Pete -surely the direct action taken by the protesters can be justified within the context of the immeasurable violence that american military might has inflicted on so many nations.
Rathteon is part of the american killing machine which provides immense military support to Israel. Direct action may not always be the right course of action but against the backdrop of the carnage inflicted on innocent lebanese civilians, I say fair play to McCann and Co.
tra g
The issue of Lebanon has simply been tacked on to provide convenient, and emotionally-driven, cover for the thuggery on display today. As I pointed out in the original post, there has been a long running campaign against this company – a company which is not breaking any laws – and a campaign which failed to achieve its aims.
What we’re left with is self-appointed arbiters of what companies are ‘good’ and what companies are ‘bad’.. a self-appointed group who have resorted to violence when they didn’t get their own way.
You did read about the fire-bombing of stores in Newry this morning?
Tra g,
I’m vehemently opposed to my government’s actions in the Middle East, becoming more sickened every night as i watch the ‘world’ news.
That said, the minute McCann stormed Raytheon’s office, he lost credibility. He used violence –though admittedly nothing compared to the US’s aggressions — to argue his case against violence.
Had the demonstration remained outside, with the right ‘stunts’, his case would have been much stronger.
McCann is a vandal, and a gobshite . He should have left his demonstration outside .
OBviously this is part of McCann’s strategy to encourage American investment in Derry ?
How many jobs have McCann and his ilk created in Derry ?
Nothing that McCann and his bunch of outdated loonies of the left do in Derry will have any impact on the tragedy of the Lebanon . McCann should take a plane to Tel Aviv and demonstrate against the war somewhere close to the Wailing Wall . Now that would require courage !
Pete, your clumsy linking of the Derry protest to the Newry fire bombs is tenuous in the extreme and smacks of nothing more than sanctimonious claptrap.
To borrow your own words, you have tacked on the issue of the Newry incendiary devices to provide convenient and emotionally driven cover for your mock outrage at McCann’s temerity in taking the action that he did
Better that than spending half your life on this forum talking pointless guff as you do.
Of course it’s tenuous, tra g, that was partly the point – to mirror the tenuousness of McCann’s, and your, claims.
But it does represent the extreme end of how violence is used by similarly self-appointed groups who can’t get their own way through any other means.
Spare a thought for the moral courage of a group of people who are prepared to risk prosecution and possible imprisonment because of their political and ethical beliefs.
McCann’s action on this occasion is deplored by some here as an act of “violence” and “thuggery”.
Possibly. Rather less an act of violence or thuggery I would have thought than the continuous acts of violence and thuggery that is visited upon unsuspecting innocents through the deployment of the weapons delivery systems for which Raytheon depends in order to maintain its rate of profit.
I appreciate that some here are convinced of the moral primacy of profit (they really mean rate of profit) before people. I happen to think that they are misguided.
For that reason, and for admiration of his willingness to openly confront the giants of violence and the legal system that permits them to thrive and for his willingness to suffer the penalty, I support him.
Well done, Eamonn. Spike Lee said it in his movie title – “Do the Right Thing”. You gone and done it, dawg!
Amy Lee: Spare a thought for the moral courage of a group of people who are prepared to risk prosecution and possible imprisonment because of their political and ethical beliefs.
Well, that’s the essence of Civil Disobedience, though the significant amount of criminal damage in this instance is OTT. However – Civil Disobedience is just a means of highlighting issues – it doesn’t trump Parliament, and its practitioners presumably accept the price of bucking democracy.
Well said Rory, and I reckon if you look at the case of the protestors in Shannon who damaged the plane and the action taken at Prestwick yestarday , that put McCann and co in front of a jury of their peers here and they will acquit. Some peace dividend for Northern Ireland that as our violenc stops we are prepared to nurture both the homegrown weapons manufacturers as well as the international variety. Who cares about death and destruction being rained down overseas as long as we have a few previous jobs here. I often wondered givn the support given to the weapons industry here why noone suggested as a solution to the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons that we sell them off to the highest overseas bidder, perferably those with the worst record of human rights abuses. Perhaps that’s what did happen and I can’t see how it would be any worse than what Raytheon, Thales, Shorts etc are engaging in.
Why don’t this pathetic little group of left wing Castro worshippers get a plane ticket to Tehran and protest at the offices of the missisle makers whose weapons are raining down on northern Israel just for a bit of balance. As a matter of fact I would totally back Derry DHSS if they decided to pay for it.
How do you know they are Castro worshippers? And why don’t you go to Tehran? Just because it is impossible for people to take direct action in all circumstances doens’t mean that they should’not take it on those occasions they can
Congratulations to all involved. The anti-war movement needs more actions like this and those at Prestwick and Shannon to confront those who profit from and perpetuate the slaughter in the Middle East.
Micheal*Congratulations to all involved. The anti-war movement needs more actions like this and those at Prestwick and Shannon to confront those who profit from and perpetuate the slaughter in the Middle East. *
I couldn’t agree more. Well done to those involved.
[i]Mr John Hume MP said “I am very encouraged by this initiative from Raytheon. The company has recognised that the dividend from peace is still flourishing. Raytheon has confidence in Northern Ireland as do many other companies.”[/i]
Nevin
I remember this. Just goes to prove how parochial John Hume is and was in his political outlook. Opposed to “retail ” terrorism but less so with the ” wholesale ” variety
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from the anti-everything mob. How do McCann and his fellow thugs propose to put food on the tables of the employees of this company wjhen they move to an more welcoming environment?
Greenflag “McCann should take a plane to Tel Aviv and demonstrate against the war somewhere close to the Wailing Wall . Now that would require courage !”
Not to mention the gift of bi-location, the Wailing Wall is over 40 miles from Tel Aviv. Flying into Jerusalem might make more sense!
Pete,
I despair of you some times, there Mccann is in his 60s and he makes you look like an old git of 90 who does nothing but moan, with your nasty attempt to link this protest to the bombs in Newry and your daft talk about thuggery.[Red card for old Pete Mick, for playing the man not the ball, only joking]
If people are prepared to take the consequences of their actions, then in a democracy peaceful direct action is not only perfectly acceptable but has a noble tradition. Have you ever protested against anything the powers that be have not first sanctioned Pete. If we had all waited for the likes of you, there would be no civil rights etc in the UK or RoI.
As to this being a long running campaign, well if this company is providing systems that are being used in Lebanon, then it proves to me it was a campaign worth supporting. Thanks for bringing it to our attention Pete.
We seem to increasingly live in a world were the protection of property is held above the protection of human beings. It is not rocket science to work out why this has become so, I would suggest the increasing gap between the haves and have nots might be something to do with it.
By the way Pete, that was a real snide trick linking McCanns protest with his employer, why not go the whole hog and send an email to the BT and tell them what a naughty boy Eamon has been. Despite our differences I never had you down as an apprentice tout.
I’ve no problem with taking over the office for a while. But destroying the computers and throwing the files out the window is childish, and makes the protestors look that way.
As for companies like Shorts which are involved in the arms trade, my personal position is that these companies may as well be providing jobs for NI workers as workers in foreign countries, and so wouldn’t want to see them leave.
Mick H
“Despite our differences I never had you down as an apprentice tout.”
If you’d bothered to read the original post, Mick – and the linked reports – before typing your response, you’d have realised that the Belfast Telegraph report on today’s thuggish display is also linked – No apology necessary.
In case the point has been missed, or ignored – protest is fine, even by self-appointed groups sitting in judgement on others.. But today’s events went beyond protest.. by a long way.
Oh, Garibaldy, how could you say what you just did above?
I shall now forever think of you as the kinda guy who irons a crease in his jeans before he goes out in public.
Nothing wrong with that of course, but…..
Rory,
I don’t know how an iron works. I’ve no objection to damaging US air force planes etc, nor if there were missiles being made here as is often claimed (erroneously) to them being damaged, but come on. Throwing computers and documents out windows? Looks ridiculous. This is a matter of what is best for getting the message of the protest across, and convincing people of your argument. In other words, of tactics not principles. And these tactics were wrong.
‘But destroying the computers and throwing the files out the window is childish, and makes the protestors look that way. ‘
Just like the Shannon ‘gobshites’. You can protest against the Iraq or Israeli /Hezbollah Lebanese war without having to act the hooligan .
I hope the Belfast Telegraph are tonight reviewing McCann’s position and will be sacking him in the morning.
A truly disgraceful episode today.
You can protest against the Iraq or Israeli /Hezbollah Lebanese war without having to act the hooligan .
I suppose the USA and UK could have used the UN process to peacefully protest their objections to the Iraq government. Using guided missiles against civilians just seemed so much more glamourously principled i.e. a greater rate of interest would be available on whatever principle investors in such as Raytheon were hoping for.
Oh, and for all you poor souls salivating at the idea of McCann being sacked (sacking a man – second best thing to a lynchin’ – ain’t that right boys?) I don’t think you really understand, do you? The concept of undertaking a principled action where the consequences would most likely result in your own discomfort and to your own econmomic detriment simply has never crossed your mind, has it?
You really are missing out on the best things in life, guys.
Mickhall,
‘We seem to increasingly live in a world were the protection of property is held above the protection of human beings. It is not rocket science to work out why this has become so, I would suggest the increasing gap between the haves and have nots might be something to do with it. ‘
There was a huge gap between the haves and have nots in the 1930′s and 40′s . Did’nt stop the destruction of billions of pounds /marks worth of property or millions of lives did it ?
When ever in the history of any conflict were the lives of human beings held above the value of ‘property’ apart from in a theoretical sense ?
There is no excuse for McCann’s idiotic behaviour . I wonder how Raytheon ‘employees’ feel about this senseless vandalism ?
I wonder if Eamonn Mc Cann, Goretti Horgan and the rest have any actual information on the work done by Ratheon in Derry or are they just picking a general target to give themselves something to do to pass the time?
The last time I saw anything made by Raytheon was in Killybegs harbour – radar on a fairly inocuous looking little, fishing boat.
I sure someone can give the exact figure but I believe Mc cann got about 2000 votes in a recent election – not what I would call a mandate to decide whether or not 60 Derry families are entitled to an income. Something that would also surely undo Goretti Horgan’s work as a board member of the Northen Ireland Anti-Poverty network (NIAPN).
Ha, ha, ha, ho, Ha, ho, ho, ha. Please, stop it, Aggers.
More!
‘Spare a thought for the moral courage of a group of people who are prepared to risk prosecution and possible imprisonment because of their political and ethical beliefs.’
Amy Lee O Rate:
Is that intended as a backing of McCann and his lefty pals, or of the micro republican group that carried out the firebombings in Newry?
Haven’t we heard all this time after time? Someone defending the actions of some violent people on the basis that the violence was based on the moral courage summoned from political and ethical beliefs?
Isn’t the problem that if we accepted this theory, everyone could do anything they wanted if they felt they were doing it for political and ethical reasons?
This is exactly the excuse given for Bobby Sands -that he bombed that furniture store for political and ethical reasons.
So what’s the difference between Sands back in the 1970s, the micro republicans today, McCann and his lefty pals today, and some loyalist who tonight goes out and firebombs a GAA clubhouse based on this theory.
Who gets to decide which politics and which ethics justify these actions? I’m sure that not all politics or ethical viewpoints would meet with your approval, so who decides which are OK and which aren’t?
‘I don’t share your disappointment on this issue, Pete -surely the direct action taken by the protesters can be justified within the context of the immeasurable violence that american military might has inflicted on so many nations.’
tra g:
So can everyone do this? Can we all be violent against any party that supports violence that we don’t approve of?
‘a self-appointed group who have resorted to violence when they didn’t get their own way.
You did read about the fire-bombing of stores in Newry this morning?’
Pete:
Great point.
Both of these actions are the result of fanatics who can’t get their way through normal politics.
Your observation is spot on. There will be some who will support both the dissident republicans and the McCann action. Then there will be some – Provisional types – who will condemn the dissident republicans but will support the McCann action. They have a selective basis for approving of such action. If they did it in the past, or they approve of it today, they are OK with it, but if their opponents do it, they condemn it.
“I hope the Belfast Telegraph are tonight reviewing McCann’s position and will be sacking him in the morning.
A truly disgraceful episode today.”
I have nothing in common whatsoever with McCann ideologically but I find the idea that he should be sacked from his position as a commentator over that action as nothing less than an attempt at reactionary censorship.
He is not some party apparachik and more than capable of putting his case (much as I imagine I might disagree with it) in the telegraph. Calling for his sacking as a journalist is plain wrong. I personally have always sought out his analysis/reportage has it been available. I look forward to his reflections on this event.
I suppose all the supporters of some sort of action (not necessarily physical) against Raytheon avoid buying any products from US companies – after all, if you do you’re just supporting the US War Machine!
fallow: “I have nothing in common whatsoever with McCann ideologically but I find the idea that he should be sacked from his position as a commentator over that action as nothing less than an attempt at reactionary censorship. He is not some party apparachik and more than capable of putting his case (much as I imagine I might disagree with it) in the telegraph. Calling for his sacking as a journalist is plain wrong. I personally have always sought out his analysis/reportage has it been available. I look forward to his reflections on this event. ”
You would…
As for censorship, McCann is free to dribble whatever he wants… The Telegraph is in no way obliged to give him access to their platform to do so.
What’s with all this prissy “Oooh, Peter, don’t dare compare Wolfie McCann to those nasty brutes that incinerated JJB Sports in Newry”
So I get it, one bunch are just unelected fanatics, with zero mandate from the people who think that because they have deeply held convictions they can destroy property and throw people out of their jobs and the other lot are dissident Chucks, is that it?.
Please tell me what difference there is between what McCann did and what was done in Newry?
McCann stood for election in his native Bogside, hardly a rock solid bastion of Thatcherite conservatism, he’s been campaigning for three decades and is given soap boxes by the Derry Jornal and the Belfast Telegraph and the Sunday Tribune and the BBC and he still couldn’t get elected as dog catcher.
This however gives him the mandate to smash up other people’s property, (by the way mickhall I know you and I will never agree but the right to private ownership of property is another fundamental bedrock of a free society).
Go fukk yersel McCann, get a real fukkin job.
If the Belfast Telegraph don’t wish to employ violent criminals then that is their perfect right.
I believe that the protest was 100% justified but the only thing that might damage the campaign was that three of the local RIRA people are part of the 9. More direct action of this type will put the issue of the arms trade and their role in international terrorism in the middle east. The likes of Raytheon need wars.
Anyone else seen the anti-war graffiti that’s suddenly appeared inBelfast city centre? There’s a really bizarre one in the alleyway at the back of Marks and Spencer. Something along the lines of “you wouldn’t beat your weaker wife just because you got beaten by your stronger employer” with “free Lebanon” right beside it.
There is a line that protest must not cross without losing credibility.One hopes that those who so wilfully destroyed property and job prospects in Derry, will,”having done the crime-be prepared to do the time.”
T.Ruth
Some of the wilder-eyed condemnations on this thread are beyond belief.
This protest was not “violent” – nobody was hurt or injured.
There was merely destruction of property involved – property belonging to a despicable corporation directly involved in the mass slaughter of innocent Lebanese women and children
This company makes the guidance systems used to slaughter innocent children – so they can take their “software engineering” jobs and shove ‘em.
The people working those jobs are directly complicit in the mass murder of children.
So they smashed up a few computers? Any competent firm has plenty of backup. Count me in as another punter backing Eamon up on this one.
“the only thing that might damage the campaign was that three of the local RIRA people are part of the 9.”
If you put aside that any right minded person would reject this shameful and potentially costly violence, the idea od RIRA being involved is handly surprising. the links between republicans and islamic extremism are well known.
“I have nothing in common whatsoever with McCann ideologically but I find the idea that he should be sacked from his position as a commentator over that action as nothing less than an attempt at reactionary censorship.”
I am totally in favour of free speech, but when someone resorts to thuggary like this, then their words should not be given a public platform. There is not justfication for this kind of behaviour.
“There’s a really bizarre one in the alleyway at the back of Marks and Spencer.. with “free Lebanon” right beside it.
Thanks for the tip but I think I prefer the free Cava.
So Keith, if there was a factory outside Londonderry openly constructing rockets for Hezbollah to murder innocent Israeli civilians, you’d be quite content to see it remain in operation, with any protest confined to mere placard waving outside??
“Hezbollah Rocket Propulsion Systems (NI) Inc.”
Well that’s exactly what we have with Raytheon, busily constructing new ways to murder innocent Lebanese children.
Or is it just that we place an entirely different value on the lives of innocent Lebanese than we do on the lives of innocent Israelis?
The hypocrisy here beggars belief.
Both of these actions are the result of fanatics who can’t get their way through normal politics.
harpo
harpo,
I think you are wrong here, for what you seem to be saying is that we, the people, can only make are opinions known politically once ever four or five years, when a general election comes around.
But what happens, as is par for the course when something out of the ordinary occurs between elections, for example like the current UK government support for Israelis attack on Lebanon [imo]
Should we all shrug our shoulders and say, well it is none of our business as we elect governments every five years or so to deal with these matters. There is an additional problem for those who live in the UK, in that both of the main parties support the current US satrap over Lebanon. Just because we do not hold majority political opinions, should we allow that to neuter us politically.
i agree that violence against the person should not be used in this type of protest, indeed as far as I know no one was hurt in Newry. But I see no reason why a multi national should do what it wishes and expect no one to protest against its dirty money making needs, if that is what they are about.
For example, I can remember campaigning against Barclays bank for trading in South Africa, we used direct action whilst the government of the day supported barclays, yet direct action and other means of protest made them withdraw from apartheid SA. Common decency won the day and hopefully the bank took more than the bottom line into account when making the decision to withdraw. Or do you feel it is just fine and dandy to let the unacceptable face of capitalism reemerge without a whimper from those who oppose unethical behavior in business
Should disability campaigers not have used direct action to highlight the fact that many of them could not get on a bus and other forms of public transport, these protest can and do work and make life better for millions.
Active citizens do not sit on the political arse’s between elections and the world is a far better place for it. Harpo if we were all to do as you seem to want, a small number of people would conclude the only way to change society bar voting every 4/5 years would be to engage in armed struggle. Not a good thing, the north has been their done that.
All direct action of the type McCann was involved in does, is cause the majority of us a short period of inconvenience and it may make us think about issues we would not normal engage with. Sometime it even changes the minds of powerful forces within our society.
Direct action is a vital part of our democracy at work; and it is just as important as that general election if our democracies are to grow and become beacons for all.
All the best and lutta continua
Are they pacifests against Raytheon making weapons of any description ?
Or are they simply anti US & Israeli and against weapons being sold to these two
Or are they anti the war in Lebanon and hence are linking the second one above ?
I find it hard from what they are saying to deduce what they are.
The bottom line is in a free country they have the absolute right to protest against any of the three above.
However such protestation must be within the law – if they dont like that law and they live in a democracy then they can attempt to change Governments and voters minds.
They dont have the right to invade private property and cause vandalism.
As for Raytheon it takes its cue from the lawfully constitited authorities – its Parent Company’s Govt, Its host Country’s Govt and the even the UN.
ie there is no arms embargo on the US or Israel and there is no law against selling arms to them. If Eamon McCann and co want to get such a law then they can advocate one. If they are unsuccessful then they can continue argue – but they cant make their own laws.
To me this is all pretty simple.
There is a lot on this thread about admiring people with the courage to break the law while standing up for their principles – this is all dangerous bull shit and it is exactly the same kind of moral equivalence that justifies the Newry fire bombing or what those dangerously disturbed individuals were trying to do today on UK flights.
Time to point out yet again that ‘themmuns’ make better protestants. What has gone wrong with the Reformation?
It wuz you lot were supposed to be into individual conscience and all that, while our lot kept our heads down and waited for the local PP to make up our minds for us.
Can’t count on anyone these days.
JEB,
Breaking the law when necessary was the principle that motivated Ghandi, Martin Luther King and NICRA.
inuit_goddess; if you cannot see the difference between the IDF’s self-denece of its civilian population and the indicrimate murder of those civilians by the murderous Hizbollah militias, then its pointless engaging with you.
Here is a report on the court appearance of the Derry wans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4778937.stm
Keith,
Self-defence is one thing, what the Israelis are doing goes way beyond that. As the respective civilian casualty figures shows.
Harpo,
‘so who decides which are OK and which aren’t? ‘
The winners .
Garibaldy “Self-defence is one thing, what the Israelis are doing goes way beyond that. As the respective civilian casualty figures shows.”
Hizbollah has been firing hundreds of missiles into Israel every day. This has been going on for a month. Those rockets have been deliberatly launched from built-up areas with civilian populations to make them more difficult to spot. Isreal has only targetted those launch sites and infrastructure which was being used to transport missiles into the area where it endangers Israeli civilians. If you want to blame anyone for civilian deaths (on either side of the border), there’s only one group to blame and that’s Hizbollah and its supporters.
On the rare occasion where despite its best efforts a purely civilian taget is hit, Israel has apologised. We have yet to see an apology from Hizbollah for targetting civilians. I wouldn’t hold my breath, because terrorists deliberatly target civilians.