DUP councillors veto “sectarian” bilingual signs- for a nationalist housing estate
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The Irish language, and the sustanace of it through bilingual postings, is good in my opinion. The erosion of the language, and subsequent revival is due in no small part to people realising that we should be helping promote it at every opportunity. The DUP’s claims are laughable, and carry no weight of logic whatsoever. This is painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain and common sense.
Just thought i’d point out that in some parts of the Twinbrook estate the street names in English have been painted over and replaced with Gaelic street signs which hardly anyone can read. Parity of esteem anyone?
nice consistency from Cllr. Moore who ses no hypocrisy in the veto on the signs yet has no problem in flying the Butcher’s Apron all year round in a mixed vilage.
nice one chris – hope it stimulates a fruitful discussion though it seems the majority of the stories eventually gravitate to the usual exchanges.
it amazes me that there is resistance to flying the union flag in this country.
re: irish language, thats a valid point though I suspect there is a significant portion of the community without any literacy – whatever language…
“I suspect there is a significant portion of the community without any literacy – whatever language…”
The stupid Irish…they can’t read any language eh Skinbop?
Was it not the case that the unionist bloc reluctantly agreed to Irish signs being erected in exchange for support from SF for Lisburn to be designated a city.
Is this another case of the DUP not being able to be trusted in keeping its word?
poor skinbop is ‘amazed that there is resistance to flying the union flag in this country’.
For feck’s sake, no one tell him that Santa’s not real as well otherwise it’ll be a double-whammy for him on the same night!
Good decision. Waste of money.
The erection of Gaelic street signs is just a slightly more sophisticated version of the painting of kerbstones or the flying of flags from lampposts.
They’re territorial markers.
So Willowfield, you seem to be accepting that the DUP cllr. is acting in a hypocritical manner by opposing something the other side wants while promoting a slightly less ‘sophisticated’ version of ‘territorial marker’.
Obviously.
Wonder if Cllr Moore would have problems with Ulster Scots sgins going up in unionist areas of Lisburn?
There’s only one question hat needs to be asked here. How many people are going to use the signs and don’t speak English?
Road signs have one purpose and one purpose only. They are not some linguistic totem pole marking out territory.
I think the answer to your question, Keith, is “none”.
Good point, paul panther. I believe the DUP on Ards Borough Council has supported Ulster-Scots signage.
If the local community supports this, then it should happen
If you want bilingual signs in yer housing states move to the ‘unoccupied 26 counties.’ you bunch of spongers.
Garibaldy
Do you think kerbstones should be painted and flags erected if “the local community” supports it?
You’re happy to tolerate sectarian apartheid in Northern Ireland?
Perhaps we should at this stage reconsider the ‘Stages Theory of Socialism’, beloved of the British and Iriah Communiist Party (BICO) which more or less argued that the northern protestant working class would require to be educated into the acceptance of even those progressive ideas which were clearly in their own best interests before any other progress was possible in Ireland. Good enough, you might think – the problem was everyone else including the world and his wife had to wait until BICO had completed the educational process. The last I heard of them they were in Australia insisting that socialism on that island must wait for the Marxist revolutionary victory of the indigenous people of the island of Nauru.
As for the north of Ireland, as for any land, I would be happy if the children could read and transcribe and understand the origins of the placenames of their communities in any bloody language, and then to grow to love where they are and how it is named, and what they truly are and yet what more they might become.
I should point out, in regard to GPJ’s point, that in 2001 the UUP were the dominant party on Lisburn Council, not thwe DUP.
The UUP were the driving force initially behind efforts to get city status for Lisburn. It was when Sinn Fein threatened to publicly oppose the campaign that the UUP bloc decided to make the compromise on Irish language signs.
They also decided, for the first time ever, to permit a Sinn Fein councillor to become a vice-chair of a committee (Michael Ferguson).
Alas, fast forward to the successful city status announcement, which saw the Unionist bloc revert to form and exclude Sinn Fein- and even the SDLP-from position of Chair/ Vice-Chair of Committees (now that the City status PR campaign was over.)
However, they did not alter the ‘agreement’ on the bilingual signs, which led to a number of estates being built in the interim time with bilingual signs not a problem.
It was only when the DUP came into position of power on the Council in the past year that this issue has been revived.
Keith
If I’m not mistaken, you live in the 26 counties. Are you opposed to the state policy on bilingual signs there, or is your opposition simply in relation to the north?
No willowfield I’m not. But if in an anonymous survey the majority of the people in the streets concerned want it then why shouldn’t it happen?
We’re talking about street signs, not about flags and lampost painting etc. A different kettle of fish I think. Particularly when this is happening in other ares in both Irish and Ulster-Scots.
I had thought things might be improving in Lisburn Council area in terms of engagement of council and council staff with people from and issues affecting Lagmore/Twinbrook and Poleglass etc. Clearly the old sectarianism is still thre — although I accept that signage is a way of marking ou teritory( mind you it’s been marked out here for a long time signs or not) One of my concerns is the impact of the behaviour of councillors has on staff of the council. The people in these areas have got a poor deal in terms of facilities and services form Lisburn City Council for a long time and it looks like that will coninue
Johnkingii has made a couple of highly witty references to gaelic speakers as being ‘spongers’and anti-war protestors as being sponsored by Derry DHSS.
I wonder what he thinks of recently released SSA statistics which show that the highest number of social security benefit frauds perpetrated last year were by people from the Shankill Road.I’m all for the protestant work ethic just as long as the loyal sons of Ulster don’t forget to sign off -lest god forbid they’re callled spongers…..
Garibaldy
But if in an anonymous survey the majority of the people in the streets concerned want it then why shouldn’t it happen?
Well, rather obviously because it is divisive; it promotes sectarian apartheid and maintains sectarian ghettoes.
We’re talking about street signs, not about flags and lampost painting etc. A different kettle of fish I think.
As I said earlier, it’s only a slightly more sophisticated means of marking out territory.
Chris “If I’m not mistaken, you live in the 26 counties.” No I live in Ireland, The Republic of Ireland or Éire, whichever of these you choose is fine with me as it’s what the people of this country have democratically chosen as its name.
As a matter of interest there haven’t been just “26 counties” in this country for several decades, it’s long since stopped being the Irish Free State and given that it contains Donegal, “the south” is also nonsensical.
“Are you opposed to the state policy on bilingual signs there, or is your opposition simply in relation to the north?”. Yes I am opposed to bi-lingual signs ANYWHERE they are not needed, whether it be this country, Northern Ireland or elsewhere.
As I’ve stated above roadsigns fulfill one function and one function only. Adding complexity in a uni-lingual environment defeats the purpose of having road signs.
Willowfield, it can be. But not necessarily. One way of ensuring that the temptation to use them as such is lessened is to insist that if two languages go up, the third one (be it Irish or Ulster-Scots) is added.
Keith,
Ireland is not the name of the territory governed by the Dublin government.
Garibaldy can I suggest you read article four of the constitution. The name of the state in English is “Ireland”, “Éire” in Irish Gaelic. to avoid confusion “The Republic of Ireland” is also legally recognised as the name of the state and has been for over 50 years.
Yes, and the constitution refers to the entire island. Still.
Garibaldy : “The name of the ***State**** is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.
Note, not the island, not the “nation”, the state.
But the state is understood to cover the whole island, just part of it temporarily outside the jurisdiction
Even after the changes to article 2 and 3, which I supported
Garibaldy “But the state is understood to cover the whole island, just part of it temporarily outside the jurisdiction”.
No it’s not and there’s nothing in the constitution that says that having two jurustictions on the island is temporary.
Article 3.1:
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by
this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
(The last sentence defines the state).
“
I was paraphrasing
Garibaldy “I was paraphrasing. The constitution is very clear on this. The state is the area covered by the juristiction prior to the constitution being enacting. The interesting thing is that the new articles 2+3 have left a rather ambigous position regarding the treaty ports.
The Irish Constitution was introduced in 1937, but the the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement which transferred sovreignty of the treaty ports only came a year later. Therefore it could be argued that Barehaven, Queenstown/Cobh and Lough Swilly are not covered by the constitution.
It would certainly be an interesting constitutional challenge. What are the Gimps upto these days?
Not a lot to be honest. Michael has gone very quiet since Tribmle fell. Haven’t seen much of Chris. But maybe others can say more
Oh just stop it, Garibaldy. Pedantry becomes none. Wilfully wrong pedantry is positively embarrassing. Keith M has explained it all absolutely simply, absolutely clearly and absolutely correctly. Do please reread his posts numbers 3 and 5 above – they are simple and simply accurate.
I propose that all the twats who wish to post on this twattery should be obliged to do so in Irish, rather than in the Oppressor’s tongue. There, that should shut a good few of them the f*ck up.
Cen fath, Karl?
I deplore the way that Gaelic and Scots culture are being hijacked to express sectarian identity in Northern Ireland. In a more rational climate- in Scotland, for example- both these cultures are promoted for the benefit of persons of whatever political or religious persuasion. I read Aogán Ó Rathaille and Rabbie Burns with equal pleasure.
It seems to me in any case that the Gaelic substratum in Ulster placenames is more Scots Gaelic than Irish. Strabane for example shows the intrusive -t- that you find in Scotland: if it were Irish you would expect Srabane.
As most people in Twinbrook can barely read or speak English, let alone Irish – who gives a ****?
What is a “nationalist housing estate”, Chris?
I thought the advantage of new developments is that they’re not subject to sectarian branding – or at least not yet, anyway.
I also thought that Sinn Fein’s position on flags an emblems was “either neutrality or equality”. How is tribal street signage either?
And don’t give me the line about Irish not being one tribe’s position. SF ruined that long ago.
Dear Unionists:
I am very disappointed to see your generalized opposition to the Irish Language. The language is in fact the equivalent to a historical artifact, it to to be preserved for future generations, future generations who may see it for what it is, simply an ancient and nationally identifying language.
I am even more disappointed to see how the Irish Language (and the GAA) have been hijacked by republicans to promote their own (corrupt) agenda.
Further, please be patient, it is only a matter of time before Republicans run out of IRA/INLA terrorists to promote to political positions.
Keith M:
So, are you saying signs should be Irish only in Gaeltacht areas and English only everywhere else?
i think the only solution, is that signs eith stay as english or go up in english, irish and ulster scots.
simple really.
Dan “So, are you saying signs should be Irish only in Gaeltacht areas and English only everywhere else?”
This depends. In English speaking areas, yes signs should be in English as there are few if any that don’t understand the lanuage.
In the Gaeltacht areas, if they get a lot of English speaking traffic then the signs should be bilingual.
I was in Athens for this year’s Eurovision, and this is how they applied it. In the areas which got tourist traffic (downtown, major roads and historical sites) signs were bi-lingual. In suburban areas, the signs were all in Greek. Eminently sensible.
Spice Girl “i think the only solution, is that signs eith stay as english or go up in english, irish and ulster scots.
simple really.”
Not that simple really – to do so, is to give credence to UlsterScots as a language which let’s face it; it isn’t. We all accept that Irish is a distinct language and moves to have street names in Irish should be welcomed. Irish Language is part of our heritage, Unionist and Nationalist. We shouldn’t shun it because of some narrow political game. If Unionists really wanted to do something positive then they should embrace the language and share in this rich vain of culture.
In fact the more I think of it the better – Loyalist areas with bi-lingual Irish/English street signs.
Keith M: your assertion that signs are purely functional and serve only to guide us is nonsense. The place names of towns, districts, streets help define them – you only have to look at the whole debate over post coding and the subsequent loss of townlands names.
Names not only show the position on a map but they give an insight into the past which is why I’m so often against the naming of new areas with non-descript trendy english names.
qubol “The place names of towns, districts, streets help define them – you only have to look at the whole debate over post coding and the subsequent loss of townlands names.”
Place names are one thing, road signs are another. I repeat road signs have one function, and that is to guide people (often travelling at speed) as to where they are and how to get to where they want to go.
I have no problem with bi-lingual signs as you enter a city/town/village being bi-lingual, as long as the primary language can be easily read and the secondary language is in no way distracting.
Street signs (which are oftern quite small and hard to read) within a city or town should always be in one language unless there is a genuine bi-lingual need.
WHat exactly would a Ulster-Scots street sign look like?
Fair fay yee too der Shaunk hool roooooooooooooooooooooooooooood!!!!!
Nonsense
Look at the confusion that they cause in Dublin with Bono being given as being from Ballymun when he is in fact from Glasnevin.