UUP Assemblyman warns of loyalist violence
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Total Politics: Top 20 NI Blogs…
Fair play to Iain, he managed to get over 2,200 people voting in his poll for the top Northern Irish blogs this year… We (just, I imagine) retained our top spot, with Splintered coming straight in at number 2, no doubt his pet subject du jour will have garnered him a lot of fans… I’ve [...] read our review »
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Unionists, Loyalists, and Conflict Transformation. A book about how things are changing.
Unionists, Loyalists, and Conflict Transformation in Northern Ireland is a new academic tome by lecturer and researcher Lee Smithey. In the book the Pennsylvania academic outlines his findings based on 67 interviews over eighteen months with grassroots activists in unionist and loyalist communities and organisations. This is largely a book about men, even though they [...] read our review »
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“Unionism Decayed 1997-2007″ by David Vance: book review
I initially wrote this when the book was first published three years ago; whilst certain elements of it now sound dated, its basic premise that the period of 1997-2007 was a period of irreversible decay for Northern Irish Unionism can still be argued as a valid opinion. My own feeling is that it did indeed [...] read our review »
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Garibaldy
“Did Hain not say during the week, blogged here, that Dublin had been overhyping what joint stewardship would mean? In reality, nothing different in any way shape or form to direct rule.”
Well he first said it back in May, in front of a Commons Committee with a majority of Labour MPs.. but it’s been a consistent message ever since, and not just from the British Government.
That hasn’t stopped some parties from continuing to ignore those statements though..
ANYway.. here’s where it was last detailed on Slugger – “It’s almost like a fruit ripening”
Pete,
I don’t dispute that plan B will be nothing more that a few committees dealing with waterways, energy, and tourism and some deal in mobile roaming charges and cross border cost sharing on health. It’s the potential.
If unionists still refuse to see their nationalist neighbours as equals six months later Bertie can add Dail membership. (Especially if there is a close election and SF can exercise some leverage). If they still refuse to wise up add a joint panel to appoint judges. (Part of a law and order deal?)
If they still refuse to budge–maybe give the garda power to investigate PSNI/UVF malfeasance. A garda team based in Belfast–a deal for SF to support the police maybe.
In a year or two maybe a minister or two from the free state government as part of the direct rule team of ministers. Free State slots in the appointment of quango members (the parades commission would get unionist attention!)
Plan B is not JA but it could be–if unionists want it that way and refuse to implement the GFA
Thank God the UVF will hold the line. The Provos may have given up their weapons without achieving a single core goal but the UVF are not so foolish.
There will be no surrender.
Bertie,
You may say that this statement by Ervine is more to do with threatening the DUP than threatening Nationslists, but I think you are, in the main, wrong.
Any use of violence by Loyalists will, I guarantee it, result in the death or injury of Nationalists, not DUP members.
If the threat is to a third party, then it is to the British and Irish governments. Effectively what Ervine is saying is that if they push ahead with plan B, then there is a strong chance that Loyalists will murder Nationalists in protest.
So, whichever direction you think the threat is aimed, those who will suffer most from its realisation will be Nationalists.
That said, I’ll repeat my first point. We will not be bullied by threats of violence. We will not accept government by London or by Unionists.
Such government has, on every occasion in the past, proven to be not in our interests. We want political fairness.
“Bertie,
You may say that this statement by Ervine is more to do with threatening the DUP than threatening Nationslists, but I think you are, in the main, wrong. ”
I didn’t say it.
“We will not be bullied by threats of violence. We will not accept government by London or by Unionists. ”
That sounds like a threat. If you were a democrat you would accept both.
“Thank God the UVF will hold the line. The Provos may have given up their weapons without achieving a single core goal but the UVF are not so foolish.
There will be no surrender.
Posted by E Carson on Aug 07, 2006 @ 02:57 AM”
It seems your defenders are in the process of being “paid off”.
http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/the_basis_of_a_civilised_society/
One can only assume that after being paid off, those that don’t retire will no longer have the support of their old employer.
This is fairly silly, Ervine said that a people without a voice, with a will imposed upon them later rather than sooner attempt to force people to listen to them (violence). To me it seems more like an analysis of human nature than any type of threat.
It basically defines the very existence of the IRA etc… and for that matter any physical force grouping/civil protestors the world over.
Bertie,
you [i]did say that the UVF is threatening the DUP.[/i]
In response to my assertation that the statement by Ervine tells of a threat to Nationalists you said:
“[i]Dualta. Try and consentrate.
It is the DUP (friends of the UDA) the UVF is trying to bully.[/i]”
You have also accused me of issuing a threat. I can see nothing in my post which resembles a threat. Please point it out to me.
Lastly, in my books democracy means self government. Not the government of others or someone who considers me to be ‘other’.
Also, when the border was drawn, it was done so in a way to render Catholics and Nationalists a permanent minority.
So when people claim that I am not a democrat for not being willing to accept Unionist or direct British rule, I tend to ignore them and concentrate on building a better society for all of my people on this island.
Dualta: “Lastly, in my books democracy means self government. Not the government of others or someone who considers me to be ‘other’. ”
In its purest form, democracy is five wolves and three sheep voting on what to serve for dinner. It most definately is the tyranny of the majority, hence the attachement in some quarters to the notion…
What is needed is democratic elections as a component of a more equitable government, where the rights of the minority and the individual are protected from the tyranny of the majority.
Dread,
Self, in this instance, means ‘the group’. I would consider devolved government in NI, under the terms of the GFA, as self-government by Unionists and Nationalists.
We are, to a large degree, in agreement on the mechanisms.
Tony: Hello Bertie, looks like there will be no agreement by November. Now, as long as we are going to share governing the place, will you also share the bill?
Bertie: No, costs too much.
Tony: If I can get that figure down to a reasonable level would you consider it?
Bertie: Maybe. Thanks for the jumper by the way.
Tony: Yes, George left it behind so I thought I should start saving money straight away
Dualta
You have mixed me up with Bunter.
I didn’t accuse you of issueing a threat I said that “We will not accept government by London or by Unionists” sounded like one. It depends what you mean by not accept as to whether it actually is one.
“Lastly, in my books democracy means self government. Not the government of others or someone who considers me to be ‘other’” I don’t know who the others are. Democracy means that the people of a country govern the country. Labout govern this country. I suppose that it would consider LibDems and Tories as other.
Dread
Democracy is not about the tyranny of the majority but to prevent the tyranny of the minority.
“In its purest form, democracy is five wolves and three sheep voting on what to serve for dinner. It most definately is the tyranny of the majority, hence the attachement in some quarters to the notion… ”
In its best form, The five wolves would have to apply the outcome equally to themselves.
meant to add
and that is part of the attachment that I have to it.
bertie: “Democracy is not about the tyranny of the majority but to prevent the tyranny of the minority. ”
Stuff and nonsense. Democracy, unalloyed by checks and balances, is all about majority rule.
bertie: “In its best form, The five wolves would have to apply the outcome equally to themselves. ”
Seeing as Northern Ireland doesn’t qualify as “best form,” under the heading of “democracy,” I feel compelled to ask “what’s your point?”
I repeat. its benfit and what it’s aim is, is to prevent the tyranny of the minority.
My point is about the nature of what democracy is about and is in answer to your comment about your interpretation.
“its benfit and what it’s aim is, is to prevent the tyranny of the minority. ”
The problem with democracy is, you can always draw a new line around a minority to convert it to a majority.
NI – case in point.
bertie: “I repeat. its benfit and what it’s aim is, is to prevent the tyranny of the minority. ”
And it achieves this by imposing the tyranny of the majority.
bertie: “My point is about the nature of what democracy is about and is in answer to your comment about your interpretation. ”
And my reply to you is that arguing best cases is inapplicable — N.I. doesn’t qualify.
N.I. is the gerrymandered rump of the isle of Ireland that exists as a seperate political entity precisely of a tyranny of the minority.
I think what Bertie means by his references to “tyranny of the minority” is “tyranny of the nationalist minority”. Doesn’t seem to be a problem when a minority of the population of the island (Unionists) use force to ignore the wishes of the majority….
UUP: Dire warnings of the political dangers of Plan B
UUP/UVF: Dire warnings of the terrorist dangers of Plan B.
The UVF is now the UUP’s armed wing.
The UUP is hurtling towards moral bankruptcy at the same speed it is hurtling towards financial bankruptcy. It is now so dependent upon the grants and expenses that are part and parcel of the Assembly that it will say and do anything to keep it afloat.
BooBoo
Does this idiot really think that the British and Irish Governments are not going to talk to each other on cross boarder matters just because he threatens violence?
Did he threaten or warn?
There’ll be no repartition – the EU wouldn’t stand for the ethnic cleansing required, nor will there be anything like joint authority since someone has to have the final say on what happens here.
There will of course be a slow steady transfer of direct rule from London to Dublin as the unionist community continues to decline in relation to the nationalist community, but then we all knew that was going to happen eventually and the only thing new is that the joint bodies are currently being set up so that Ireland can be run as one single economic entity – the natural state of affairs.
The unionists are rattling their rusty sabres again. So what’s new about that? They have been at it since 1912 and without an Orange Card to play at Westminster it means nothing.
Darth
my point is about the principle of democracy. What is happening ina ny particular part of the world does not alther that. Arguing best cases in applicable if you are talking about democracy and what it was and should be. If you were talking about something else that’s up to you but I was talking about democracy!
They tyranny on the minority re partition was that The majority in Ulster did not get to decise what happened to their Province. However that happened before most of us were born and it is two late to get those three counties back as time has givn them the right to self determination.
bertie: “my point is about the principle of democracy. What is happening ina ny particular part of the world does not alther that. Arguing best cases in applicable if you are talking about democracy and what it was and should be.”
Unalloyed democracy is the tyranny of the majority. Period, full stop. Unless it is alloyed with the principles of another system of government, all you have is majority rules. You make talk ideals all you want, so long as you acknowledge few to none of them reside in Northern Ireland, the culmination of the fears of a tyrannical minority.
Funny, your ability to blow hot and cold with the same breath…
Democracy is government by the people. Whether it is a tyranny of the majority or not rather depends on the people involved. At its best it is NOT such a tyranny.
To prevent tyranny, democratic societies generally have constitutional safeguards (written or otherwise), and provisions for due process and legal checks and balances on the power of the executive and the legislature. In the UK there is the Human Rights Act – the republic has a written constitution, with legal review of legislation (if I recall).
In both societies minorities have been disadvantaged and oppressed – but things are not all bleak, and they are on the whole improving.