Why are there no Unionist intellectuals?
Last week the MacGill. This week the John Hewitt. The week after next the William Carleton. Brian Feeney points out that the historical, cultural and political content our summer schools is overwhelmingly nationalist, even if the orginal figures being celebrated were not. Why, he asks, do Unionists not organise their own Unionist specific events?
The absence of unionist reflection on politics and history creates another problem. It�s this. Republicans crowd in to hear unionists speaking and can question them and exchange views but it’s all one-way traffic.Occasionally you hear complaints from republicans at such gatherings who use the opportunity to tell unionist politicians in particular that there is no reciprocation. Where can republicans speak to a mainly unionist audience? Who would invite them? Where would the venue be? The answer from unionist guests is usually twofold. First, there is no unionist equivalent of occasions like ‘West Belfast Talks Back’ and secondly, �the time is not right�, such a weak and pathetic response no-one dignifies it with serious consideration.
Those questions deserve real answers. Why are unionists afraid to appear in public and question sacred tenets of unionism? Why can they not argue the toss with each other? Would other unionists think they are ‘selling the pass’? Why are there no unionist intellectuals?
There are Unionist intellectuals of course, as the, albeit sporadic output, of some of the Cadogan Group demonstrates. But what Feeney highlights is that, generally, they don’t talk. This is also a question I have heard senior politicians in both the main Unionist parties ruminate on, not least after their own appearances as at the like of West Belfast Festival, or the MacGill.
How many people do we have claiming they ‘invented’ the Peace Process™ now?
In ‘A Long Peace?’, we advised unionists to take a leave out of Nationalist books and try to win by argument rather than by assertion.
It seems that in the horse lattitudes that NI politics has slipped into, people feel they have no option but to abandon argument go in for loud assertion.
Hmmm….
Prince Eoghan
Sorry to say it is correct.
Prods work to make money to save or invest it. Catholics work to make money to enjoy themsleves.
So prods are dour boring workaholics and Catholics are outgoing drinking artistic people.
A sweeping genralisation I know but in large part true to different cultures with different aspirations in life.
Both are equally valid as apsirations.
I know who I want to loook after my money and who I want to have a pint with with!
FD.
If you are serious increase up the dose. If not LOL.
Why does teletubbies website come up when i try to acces page seven of the thread? could it be the unionist response to the debate concerning their lack of a culture, country, art, music, dance, mythology, language, national sports etc?
Not sure. That’s normally a re-direct for those who been trolling Ciaran.
Ciaran, I’m not sure what your 800 words in-one-handy-paragraph has to do with unionist intellectuals (or their lack), but it’s way too long for me to find out. I’m obviously way too orangie – or maybe not intellectual enough
If it’s relevant, can you summarise? William Crawley once told me I think in T-shirt slogans, so you’ll need to keep it short!
I must, in all fairness, disagree with the implications of the question “Why are there no Unionist intellectuals?”
There are of course, many of them and one could write a book as to why they do not, generally, gain the prominence of their Nationalist counterparts.
I have not ploughed through the 150+ comments above – a job for the weekend, maybe. But I have often reflected on the extraordinary explosion of talent which emanated from St. Column’s College in Derry in the late 1950s.
Seamus Heaney, Seamus Deane, John Hume, Phil Coulter, Eamonn McCann are five names which spring to mind of an exceptionally talented group of people more or less contemporary with each other who went on to achieve great fame and, in some cases at least, fortune in their different but highly intellectual fields of endeavour. There were other contemporaries, too, who did not achieve the same eminence as the famous five. I think of such individuals as Sean Cassidy and Dick McGowan who made their own mark locally (and achieved a measure of immortality by mention in in the poetry of Heaney and Deane).
Maybe there is a clue to answering the question posed if the circumstances of all these individuals is considered. They are all Irish and, to the best of my knowledge, quite happy with the label.
The average Unionist is more or less anti-Irish and his intellectual development is hugely inhibited by that unfortunate fact. That sort of inhibition inevitably leads to stunted growth not to the flowering of the intellect.
“The average Unionist is more or less anti-Irish and his intellectual development is hugely inhibited by that unfortunate fact. That sort of inhibition inevitably leads to stunted growth not to the flowering of the intellect.”
Is there any logic behind this statement barcas?
Other than prejudice of course.
This whole debate is ridiculous, started by a riduclously prejudiced article from a column which contains a great deal of prejudiced assertion almost every week.
Ciaran, I hope you don’t think I was panning you back there. I simply felt that you had interesting things to say (not that I necessarily agree with all of them) and that it’s a shame they weren’t more readable.
“So prods are dour boring workaholics and Catholics are outgoing drinking artistic people.”
I must say that “dour” applies to just about everyone in NI, not just Protestants. Only in certain Latin American countries have I come across such general glumness and lack of charisma or show of personality. I mean for fuck’s sake how much does it cost to smile?
The unfriendliness in NI is probably invisible to the natives, they being accustomed to it. But for an outsider like me, going shopping, eating out etc is a constant source of wonder. Haven’t you people ever heard of joie de vivre?
The only glee I see appears to be when yobbos are annoying the life out of others, or schadenfreude on both sides of the religious divide.
It might be something that needs to be worked on.
Here’s a better explanation for the paucity of ‘intellectuals’ north of the border
written by Patrick Murphy himself from north of the border.
The Dublin government announced a £2.5 billion investment in third-level education. Meanwhile, senior civil servants from Stormont were trying to explain to Westminster MPs why nearly a quarter of children here still leave primary school, unable to read at the required level.
Dublin’s investment will double the number of PhD degree-holders.
Belfast is not sure why 5,500 children are inadequately prepared for secondary school here every year. The Republic is close to becoming a world class centre of science and technology. We are closer to third world status with 70 per cent of our economic output now coming from the public sector.
The contrast in the quality of governance between the two states has never been more marked. They have the Celtic Tiger. We argue over how to govern a dead cat.
To a significant extent the explanation for the contrast lies in our education system. Thus responsibility rests with our politicians who devised that system, our politics which divide it, and, as events in Westminster showed, our senior civil servants who deride it.
Education in the Republic is run by the Department of Education and Science: one department for four million people.
Our politicians created three education departments (higher, lower and not quite sure) to serve one and a half million people. All three departments use different accounting systems. Thus education boards have to juggle three conflicting calculation methods to administer their budgets.
Our politics have made education just another area of sectarian dispute.
In the South education is a valued core of political, social and economic life. During the Leaving Certificate Examination, the Irish Times carries a full (broadsheet) page every day on the contents of the various exam papers. When this year’s Higher Level Maths paper was harder than expected, the item was front page news.
There is no equivalent coverage in the North – not because our newspapers have different priorities but because our society has different values. Those values stem from sectarian politics, which too often portrays education, not as a gift for human enlightenment but as a mechanism for the social and economic advancement of one community over the other. We confuse education with elitism.
The current debate on the 11plus examination should be about education, but it may boil down to a sectarian shouting match. To add fuel to the sectarian fire, NIO Minister with responsibility for education, Maria Eagle, has made the 11+ a key issue in possible political negotiations. (Maria is a good student: she understands political blackmail, but she must try harder at education.)
And then there are our senior civil servants. They are still unsure why £40 millions made no difference to achievement levels in schools. Some of them have a poor record in education: their £500 million expenditure on the Jobskills youth training programme was described by MPs as an astonishing catalogue of failure by a disturbingly complacent government department. Designed for those who did poorly at school, the programme failed our educationally vulnerable for the second time in their learning experience.
The Dublin civil service has a ‘can-do’ attitude. But the Belfast equivalent believes too much in the infallibility of its own power, a fallacy exposed with embarrassing frequency by the Public Accounts Committee at Westminster. A world-class economy cannot be based on a third world civil service.
Education in the south is not without its difficulties. Over-crowded primary schools and ancient buildings are major challenges. But the system has merit. While only 36 per cent of school-leavers enter higher education here, the figure in the South is double that.
“They have the Celtic Tiger. We argue over how to govern a dead cat.”
Is that your own, Greenflag? It’s terribly funny.
Excellent points there too. Might also be worth working on.
If Brian Feeny wants to understand why any Unionist with more than 2 brain cells doesnt set up their own summer school, he only needs to read a lot of the debate here. Imagine…..it’s nice weather, the sun is in the sky and who would want to be locked away in some godforsaken hotel listening to some of this self-serving, sectarian drivel and cat-calling.
Perhaps, contrary to the stereotype often seen here, the Prods have got it right culturally on this one. As a hobby political flaggellation doesnt have a lot going for it. There’s more to life than this nonsense.
Cynic
Exactly!
“Imagine…..it’s nice weather, the sun is in the sky and who would want to be locked away in some godforsaken hotel listening to some of this self-serving, sectarian drivel and cat-calling.”
Hmm. I can think of at least one way in which some unionists intellectuals waste sunny days in July….
‘Is that your own, Greenflag? It’s terribly funny. .
I wish it were funny
Not it’s not mine . Patrick Murphy of the Irish News who sometimes manages to ring the ‘truth bell’ with caustic clarity.
But it’s not far from the truth . Anyway better governing a dead cat than dead cat holics
?
Satan /Anti Christ/666,
I liked Murphy’s comment
‘Thus responsibility rests with our politicians ‘
Maybe Murphy should have rephrased that to read
‘Our politicians are resting irresponsibly for several years now at the English taxpayers expense’
Yes, Devil…you prove my point in two ways simultaneously!!
Of course another reason why there appears to be a dearth of ‘intellectuals’ at least of the literary/political/artistic variety could be not just the ingrained ‘suspicion ‘ of book learning as compared to the obviously more practical crafts of plumbing, engineering.
There could also be an ‘ingrained ‘ political memory that it doesn’t pay . It could be argued that Northern protestants were the group from which the majority of early republican intellectuals emerged at the end of the 19th century .
40,000 deaths (1798) approx half in the North may have been enough to convince protestants that ‘intellectualism’ is all very well for the drawing rooms of London and Paris but it yields only a dividend of death in Ulster/Ireland ?
Just a thought .
Obviously Irish Catholics /Nationalists /Republicans of the Southern variety and later Northern were not so easily convinced ?
Just a thought .
Greenflag
“There could also be an ‘ingrained ‘ political memory that it doesn’t pay . It could be argued that Northern protestants were the group from which the majority of early republican intellectuals emerged at the end of the 19th century .”
That could be partly the case.
However I think that there is a realisation among intelligent people that the same old sectarian rhetoric is not very intellectually fulfilling. Hence the brain drain. If it were reversed, I wonder what the effect might be? Three of the Unionist posters on here I respect most are all based abroad. Why?
Nice to see some rigorous analysis for a change Greenflag. Of course it could be:-
“just the ingrained ‘suspicion ‘ of book learning (among the Proddies) as compared to the obviously more practical crafts of plumbing, engineering”
in just the same way that some argue that black people are intellectually inferior to whites so why worry if they have all the menial jobs ….they are happier that way, arent they? It’s just in their make up, isn’t it.
Oh yes, and of course
“education is a valued core of political, social and economic life” in the Republic but not at all in the North.
That must be why NI has some of the highest results in UK examinations, why there is such a fierce lobby from parents across both communities to retain the grammar schools and why the Republic changed the points awarded for various exams a few years ago to make it harder for the thick Northern Irish kids to get into Irish Universities where they were taking too many places.
The big problem in Northern education isnt the top end, its the mass of under achievers at the bottom and no amount of investment in training PhD’s will do much for them – especailly in PhD’s in Education!
Anyway, be careful. Your prejudices are showing – to others anyway, even if you cant see them.
Greenflag
You really need to get out more. Of the country, that is.
If you had any real experience of other countries educational systems, or have had to work with people who are the product of other countries educational systems, you would soon realize what a third rate system the ROI has. An exam ridden system run for the benefit of teachers, the church and the civil servants of the DoE, which has little to do with education and a lot to do with turning out just enough compliant and complacent trainee appartchiks to run a modern civil service and a modern multi-national friendly economy.
And come to think of it, Dublin is not exactly brimming with nationalist/republican intellectuals last time I looked. Quite the opposite. What I found was a small provincial city with a smug self-image as an intellectual/cultural center but which actually was remarkably poor in the intellectual/cultural sphere considering its size and apparent wealth. A city of 1.5 million people without a single first rate bookshop. Need I say more..
gg,
‘However I think that there is a realisation among intelligent people that the same old sectarian rhetoric is not very intellectually fulfilling. ‘
I don’t need convincing on that one . Which is another reason why I prefer a ‘repartition’ solution as it would effectively ‘kill’ sectarian rhetoric for all practical purposes. Neither new ‘minority’ would have any significant political power and thus would assuming they had an interest, be absorbed into the main political parties . Catholic Unionists and Protestant Nationalists could come out of the closet .
‘Three of the Unionist posters on here I respect most are all based abroad. Why? ‘
Probably because of their ‘intelligence’ and/or because they get paid more and can have the kind of career and lifestyle that they could not have in NI . They may even enjoy living in a normal democracy free of sectarian tensions. I can understand that . In their boots I’d do the same.
But this ‘emigration abroad’ is not a new phenomenon in Ireland or even in Northern Ireland although perhaps less so for the latter’s young Unionist population than in the past . Ireland ‘traditionnally ‘ exported a third to a half of all graduate engineers, scientists and doctors in previous centuries . The Irish economy and population was too small to absorb or make use of these ‘brains’ . In fact the haemorraghing of ‘irish ‘ brains has been going on for centuries under British rule and even up to recently under Irish rule. The same happened to Scotland, Wales and the poorer regions of England as educated people were sucked into the centres of industry and the great cities during the industrial revolution and then overseas to the dominions.
Reversing the trend for NI will require huge levels of inward investment plus political stability and long term constitutional certainty. This IMO can only be achieved by a fair repartition.
McConnell,
‘If you had any real experience of other countries educational systems’
I have . Ireland , England , Germany , Japan, Southern Africa (Botswana /Zimbabwe), USA, Hungary . And I believe the Finnish system is the latest ‘model’ worth copying for those who are too busy to develop their own world class system .
‘What I found was a small provincial city ‘
I’m sure you will always find what you seek McConnell . A closed trap mind is never open and orange blinkers are just as effective as horse blinkers .
“Reversing the trend for NI will require huge levels of inward investment plus political stability and long term constitutional certainty. This IMO can only be achieved by a fair repartition.”
Good point.
Should Declan and Greenflag be on another thread?
I like a good tangential argument that has little to do with the topic at hand myself, but the powers that be are after youse
Cynic,
I’m not an academic nor even that way inclined . I prefer to deal with and get on better with engineers, plumbers , builders etc than with ‘intellectuals’ such as teachers , literary and artistic types etc etc . I can abide about 10 seconds in the company of sociologists, priests , politicians , counsellors, and such ilk and my patience for dealing with government bureaucrats is of the shorter than short variety
I’m aware of the excellent results of NI grammar schools and I sympathise with the parents lobbying to maintain what they have . At the same time having been around the world a bit I realise that an educational sytem which is geared only towards catering for the academic elite is not going to win out over a system which develops all of it’s students to the best of their abilities .
‘ The big problem in Northern education isnt the top end, its the mass of under achievers at the bottom ‘
I agree . And I bellieve Mr Murhphy had some questions to ask of the Northern Educational authorities in that regard .
But here’s a thought for those who may believe in the eventual economic supremacy of an economy which has access to millions of qualified engineers and scientists , as compared to one which only in recent decades had it’s first qualified engineers and scientists.
Soviet Union — 12,000,000 scientists and engineers or 6% of it’s population
GDP per person(1988) 1,000 US dollars
Botswana – 50 ? engineers & scientists or less than 0.01 % of the population .
GDP per person 1988) 3,000 US dollars .
I’m not saying that education does not pay . I’m just saying that there is more to ensuring the development of any economy than what professional ‘educators’ would have you believe .
Garibaldy’
‘but the powers that be are after youse ‘
Please explain .Is that a threat ? No skin off my nose Red Shirt
. If yiz don’t like the truth or can’t fight your corner that’s not my problem .
I meant that George, Pete Baker had a discussion that they would limit discussion of repartition to the repartition thread. I’m not a power that be.
Garibaldy,
Any reference to ‘repartition’ on this thread by me was tangental to the main discussion.
Greenflag
Slight problem with using statistics in the way you did. Botswana – small country with big industry mining diamonds. That needs labour and not much intellectual capital to produce huge returns. The figures for the USSR were from 1988. First, many of the official USSR stats were a fiction. Second, it shows just how easy it is to train huge numbers of skilled intellectuals and then squander them in a dysfunctional, centralised, command economy.
Lesson? You need to compare like economies to make these arguments.
Anyway, we agree that education is a key factor and that it’s not just about elites. The problem is how do you motivate the kids at the bottom end? That’s not just an issue in NI – look at France, USA, England and (yes, its true) Ireland too.
Greenflag,
My post was tongue in cheek.
[i]A city of 1.5 million people without a single first rate bookshop. Need I say more..[/i]
Are you joking?
Having lived in the ROI,UK,and NZ I can state that Dublin is a bookworm’s paradise.
-speaking as a died-in-the-wool bookworm.
Getting on for 200 posts and still no conclusions?
How about this then. Sorting out 2 identities (Northern and Southern Nationalism) and 2 ideologies (Republicanism and Socialism) will keep nationalists trotting off to summer schools for decades. After all, any two of the above could have an argument, if not a war. And nationalists are bothered by the thought of popitical heresy.
Meanwile, unionists have a comfortably layered identity. And since we have a diversity of religious denominations, unionists aren’t interested in building a monolithic political structure anyway – we don’t even bother arguing with the Ulster Independence crowd. When there are no nationalists around, we talk about the economy instead.
When you compare the letter’s pages of the Tele and Irish News the former is generally dealing with people having a go about late trains, education, etc…, whereas the latter is a lot more political and centred on the constitutional question. Brian is wrong, he’s not looking for unionist intellectuals but for people who’ll listen to him talk about why we need a UI. Why be surprised when there’s little to no response from within the unionist community?
Brian
I like the Irish News (it’s probably the best newspaper we have at the moment) and its letters page may well be:-
“a lot more political and centred on the constitutional question”
but that’s not evidence of a fevered intellectual debate.
In my experience, more often than not, it’s the same points recycled again and again in letter after letter, often on the basis that it’s all ‘themuns’ fault.
Isn’t the interesting issue the way in which even our morning Newspapers are mostly balkanised along community / political lines. The Irish News does try far more than most, but there is very little cross-community, cross-political debate at all. Even the bloody adverts are often different! Perhaps the bottom line is that the papers are simply following their customers who really dont want to engage with each other.
Everyone is in their own comfort zone. On one wing the political Unionists hold to the consitutional guarantee and on the other the Nationalists to the idea that the are making progress and that the day will soon come when the Unionists will be forced to accept a United Ireland. Meanwhile the majority just sit in the middle, carry on enjoying life and making some money and ignoring it all until someone puts the rates up.
I seem to remember someone once described PIRAs 30 year campaign as ‘politics for slow learners’. What’s changed on either side?
‘The problem is how do you motivate the kids at the bottom end? ‘
A tough one . Others can answer this better than I . I’ve always believed that if you have a headache take an aspirin . This approach is not welcomed by the hordes of school counsellors , remedial teachers , probation officers , who specialise in dealing with those at the ‘bottom end’
What I have learned is that some kids can learn ‘academically’ . Some others prefer to learn hands on and others a mixture of both .It would probably help a lot if people could choose who their grandparents/parents were and pick which part of town to grow up in.
Realistically kids who are not academically inclined have a tough job getting through the system . Too many parents want their kids to be lawyers and professionals not plumbers and electricians ? At some point in the future when everything has been outsourced to Chindia etc I can see ‘computer techies’ becoming the new ‘labouring’ class in the west ?
Your comments re comparing like with like I accept . I was indulging in a little Garibaldian tongue in cheek
Cynic,
‘What’s changed on either side? ‘
Not a lot – apart from the rest of the world
Mark Baxter,
‘he’s not looking for unionist intellectuals but for people who’ll listen to him talk about why we need a UI. Why be surprised when there’s little to no response from within the unionist community? ‘
I’m not surprised and I suspect BF isn’t either .
Fair point though and credible .
Reader,
‘When there are no nationalists around, we talk about the economy instead. ‘
That’s a relief to know
Just one small point . What economy ?
While it is true that Irish nationalists grapple with ideas in more overt ways than Unionists, it is more difficult to establish how far this penetrates mainstream nationalist thinking – and this really is the point. Socialism and republicanism animate nationalists who are trying to break free of the narrow sectarianism of mainstream Irish nationalism, which, historically at least, very often saw historic greivance develop into a fairly crude anglophobia. Part of the purpose of the Summer Schools, as in so much ‘nationalist’ intellectual endeavour, is to contest these ugly sentiments, providing an alternative, principled basis on which to make very legitimate claims on behalf of the victims of the ‘tragic dimension’ of Irish history. In other words, much of what runs through contemporary Irish nationalist intellectualism is, in fact, self-criticism and, in so far as this is the case, this must be regarded as very positive. This, of course, is a trend that has far more impact in the south, despite the nonsense Bertie reeled out during the 1916 anniversary this year, and despite the need to continually push the case for civilised political values. Unionists, for example, have NOT to the same extent gone through the rethinkings that accompanied the revisionism debates to anything like the same extent. Norman Porter, as mentioned earlier, is one notable exception. Paul Bew’s forthcoming history of Ireland since 1800 will, I think, challenge aspects of Unionist thinking. The point, however, is not that a more sustained engagement with Unionist shibboleths will expose the creed as politically and ideologically bankrupt. To think so is to wallow in crude nationalist fantasy. But it might begin the process by which a commitment to the UK can be more consistently articulated in a more pluralist and inclusive language, with, increasingly, the institutions and opportunities to match. For if our political beliefs and commitments are to an enormous extent inherited prejudices, mine as much as the next person, intellectual endeavour can serve to civilise them.
Greenflag: That’s a relief to know
Just one small point . What economy ?
Both: the local economy and the UK economy. If any other economies start providing jobs here, we’ll be interested in them too.
Fred,
Some good points, although I think in NI the grievance is aimed more at Irish protestants than at the British.
I’ve been thinking about the whole basis of this thread, and I’m not even sure that many of the summer schools are nationalist in outlook. As often as not, they are vehicles for revisionism rather than traditional nationalist thought.
And, on the basis of what is offered at many of these things, I’m not even sure they can be classified as intellectual activity. Prejudice in slightly fancy language is still prejudice.
We live in an anti-intellectual age. Compare the amount of reading done even by politically interested people with that done say 20 or 30 years ago. There can be little doubt that reading was a more important part of culture and politics in the past than it is today. I think Feeney’s article again reflects the pretensions of many within the nationalist bourgeoisie more than reality.
Reader,
Not much debate on the thread Fair Deal has put up on the economy. I think your statement is open to question.
The title question of this thread is, imo, badly worded… it implies that there are none. This is a ludicrous statement, and highly insulting. A better formulation would be:
“Where are all the Unionist intellectuals?”
There is no doubt that they are not channelling these powers of intellect to the constitutional question. Two pertinent points were raised above, attempting to explain away this unfortunate state of affairs:
1. The nature of Unionism is less radical than nationalism, and as such it is more practical and less abstract. The Union does not need to be justified, because it already is.
2. Unionists hear the uncompromising and bullying way in which Nationalists present their case, and don’t want to be drawn into that game.
The first point here is, no doubt, true… but it is regrettable. Implicit in the GFA’s transition from war-war to jar-jar was that debate should now take place on all levels:
*Past – historical debate, in an attempt to formulate a shared narrative for both sides
*Present – pragmatic address of crucial issues, such as the economy, sectarian tensions, etc.
*Future – constitutional debate; what is possible? what is best? why? how? when?
The “truth” is both a complex and a simple concept, and no one should appropriate it to their side of the fence. No one side represents “the truth”; both outlooks are legitimate, and both are flawed. Many things can be “true”, but acknowledging that a Unionist says something “true” does not mean you accept their whole outlook on “the truth” (i.e. that which takes into account every single facet of reality and all human motivations). No person is omniscient. Yet we should never cease progressing towards it, as a goal. It is regrettable that Unionists feel content in refraining from controversial (and perhaps painful) self-reflection and debate. If the demographics were different, one can understand their perspective – i.e. it is a waste of time and energy. But republicanism can hardly be dismissed.
The second point (or “excuse”) – concerning Nationalist conduct during debate – is a cop-out. Naturally, passions are high in this country, and people are going to make their address forcefully. This is because they BELIEVE it forcefully. When nationalists do it, they may seem rigid and unswerving, but they are at least welcoming debate. To give up, like many Unionists do, can only result in an ever-more hardening of nationalist attitudes. These two factors, when taken together (i.e. an unwillingness for Unionist self-reflection, and increased Nationalist confidence) do not bode well for the Union, and they better “get the finger out” if they wish to be taken seriously by the last few people (like myself) who take them so.
In conclusion, I want to make an obvious point concerning political debate in polarised societies such as ours. While talking is obviously preferrable to fighting, we must all remember that ‘how’ one frames an argument is equally as important as ‘what’ one argues, at least in terms of communication. If one wants another to heed their point, it must be framed in terms of respect for the other person’s sensitivities. If both sides learnt this lesson, our arguments would become a lot more productive, and yield that elusive “common ground” which is so essential as a foundation for the future.
Thank you.
Garibaldy: I take the point about northern Catholic resentment being targeted, first and foremost, at their immediate Protestant neighbours, but my impression is (and I don’t live in NI) that they do understand Unionist oppressiveness, whether historic or contemporary, as facilitated by the British govt. That Unionists are some in sense, agents of a mightier force, British imperialism. This, of course, links is an old nationalist argument (Griffith etc.): get the Brits out and the Irish, prot and cath, will prove surprisingly able to sort out their differences, recognising what they have in common as residents of the same lump of rock. There’s a nice parallel here: each accuse the other of being the agent of an outside empire: Rome and London. Neither claims are meaningful today.
Prejudice dressed up as intellectual ideas. Sure. But, on the whole, it would be unfair to say this is what goes on at the summer schools. Linked to this, however, must be my rejection of the dichotomy you’ve suggested between revisionism and nationalism. The former complicates the latter but the two are not fundamentally incompatible, which, of course, is a claim contrary to revisionism’s more intemperate critics. Most historians, for example, are identifiably nationalist- or unionist-leaning, their politics, however, tend to presentist. How do we get from here to a more satisfactory situation, one that is of benefit to the whole community? Studying history turns one into a pragmatic gradulist … Burkeans perhaps?! Discuss. This is a big subject…
Christopher’s conceptualisation of the problem seems pretty sound to me. The problem is how skin-deep inclusivist sentiments are and the need for constant vigilance over both ourselves and others to ensure that they are maintained. All those ‘respectable’ SF and DUP voters… Nationalist discourse in the south has been transformed over the past 20 years, partly because the place got rich (Unionists need to come to terms with how this overturns cliches about the feckless taigs) and partly because of the strength of, dare I say it, middle class liberalism. John Hume’s relentless pounding away about ‘dialogue’ and ‘tolerance’ gave moderate nationalist a kind of moral authority. The Peace Process proper would not have begun without it. It would be magnificent to see a Unionist figure stick her head above the parapets and start banging the Unionist version of the Humean drum. And maybe this seems too functional, but a little intellectual engagement generates a discipling consciousness of the language one uses and this could prove very productive indeed.
Fred,
Nationalists do see the British as an enemy, but, particularly in the circumstances of the post-GFA world, they see their main enemy as unionists. For example, some SDLP nationalists who look on the British as a possible positive force in, for example, enforcing anti-discrimination legislation are more than capable of the most vile sectarian prejudice and hatred of their neighbours. Unionism is much more present and visible than London.
On revisionism and nationalism, I did say revisionism as opposed to traditional nationalist thought to allow a little wriggle room on that point, but I agree I was not clear. Certainly many revisionists are nationalist, and the two are not incompatible. On the summer schools, I’m sceptical of their value for anything.
On the inclusive stuff, most of the inclusivist rhetoric available here and in political propaganda more generally is just a cover for the reality of sectarian assumptions. This has become incredibly clear here recently in the racialst language being used by many posters and bloggers, both unionists and nationalists.
As for a unionist Hume, unfortunately such people were defeated and outmanouevered. Trimble became one, but too late, and was never able to assert control over his party. And he was consistently endangered by his partners in the GFA, who had their own goal to become the biggest nationalist party, and so required confrontational politics, just as the DUP did. And they both still do.
On Burkeanism, speak for yourself.
‘Brian is wrong, he’s not looking for unionist intellectuals but for people who’ll listen to him talk about why we need a UI. Why be surprised when there’s little to no response from within the unionist community?’
Mark_Baxter:
Well said.
Garibaldy
All points taken – I think we’re in agreement – though I’m not sure how significant Humean Unionism ever was, however late in the day.
I agree that the way in which the GFA has permitted retrenchment is its greatest failure. Hume, obviously, lost too. It has bred a peculiar kind of complacency. NI: the place where rancid bigotry is acceptable because people are not being killed…
The Burke thing was a joke. Just about.
Fred
‘Summer schools’
Is it just me or did those words not strike fear into the heart of even a 8 or 9 year old in the good old days? They certainly did to me at that age.
If some dipwad of an adult had suggested that I would have been better off being in school during the summer, even at that age I would have known that I was being conned.
So why is it that adult nationalists are into such things? What sort of freaking nerds are they to:
1. Proclaim themselves to be intellectuals.
2. Propose that great gatherings of such nerds be organized during the summer months?
Maybe this all just demonstrates that unionists have it right. Instead of organizing summer schools to gaze at their political navels, unionists are out living life. As any 8 or 9 year old could tell you the summer is for.
Frankly, these nationalist summer schools have their equivalent in north America. They are called Star Trek conventions. And they appeal to the same types – those nerds who don’t live life but live in some fantasy world. A fantasy world that they think will become reality if only they meet and talk about it more and more.
I say let these self-appointed nationalist intellectuals knock themselves out. The rest of us are out in the sun looking at good looking members of the opposite sex in little clothing. Now that’s what summer is for.
‘Socialism and republicanism animate nationalists who are trying to break free of the narrow sectarianism of mainstream Irish nationalism, which, historically at least, very often saw historic greivance develop into a fairly crude anglophobia.’
Fred:
How is it then that it all leads to groups like the Irish Republican Socialist Movement? They have plenty to say based on republicanism and socialism, but it all ended up in the same outcome – blowing people apart and shooting them.
There was little evidence of all of this supposed republicn and socialist thinking producing anything except different words to justify killing people.
I don’t see how any of this advanced Irish nationalism. It just seems to have been all about coming up with better justifications for killing others.