Top of the Pops exits stage left
I was out one night with a group of very grand people from Queens, and the discussion turned to the music people listened to in their teens. I was fascinated by descriptions of Pink Floyd and Staus Quo concerts, amazing collections of LPs and all nature of sophisticated musical tastes. When the conversation turned to me, I had to sheepishly admit that growing up in Laois in the 1970′s, highlights were very much along the lines of Big Tom and the Mainliners, Hugo Duncan and Bray City Rollers. Oh yes, and that was in the Macra na Feirme Hall, to add insult to injury- The Ballroom of Lost Romance! The only connection we had to what was going on outside the world of showbands was Top of the Pops on Thursday night. It was mandated viewing, and Friday mornings were dominated with discussions of the night before. Farewell TOTP, you were an institution and served so many of us, so very well. Update Thanks to John for the picture!
‘More precisely, get a grip. There were no authoritarian restrictions on music or art in the ROI back in Miss Fits time or any other time. People from Laois obviously just liked that kind of showband shite I guess.’
McGrath:
I wasn’t being serious. Lighten up.
Harpo
You seem to completely miss Resolve’s point. His friend did not frame his objection in terms of genre, but the perceived country of origin. So, in an ironic sense, it was the friend who adopted the “one country, one culture” reasoning that you proclaim to hate so much, and not Resolve.
The same argument could be made by a nationalist against the Union. This, of course, would be ridiculous. Likewise, the friend’s reasoning is ridiculous, as his reason for being uncomfortable with the notion of a UI centres around a perceived cultural gap that doesn’t exist. The trad music he objected to (on grounds of its perceived Irishness) actually originated in England! think about it, Harpo…
p.s. I have only started posting here, but I have been reading your comments. Some have shocked me. I don’t take shit, Harpo. Look out for me
‘Who could sum it up better?’
Resolve:
These guys –
The break of day has come, I see the cracks have just begun
To line the walls, line the walls
I want to see the little girls and boys destroy their toys
And line the walls, line the walls
What a fate for little girls
British boys minds in a whirl
Tell you things that’ll make your curls
Straighten out, straighten out
Straighten out, straighten out
‘You seem to completely miss Resolve’s point. His friend did not frame his objection in terms of genre, but the perceived country of origin.’
Christopher:
I didn’t miss any point. The objection was to the type of music, not where it came from. Where is it mentioned that he didn’t like it because it is from Ireland? Trad Irish folk music is put forth as part of what Irish culture is all about, and that guy felt nothing for it. Nor do I.
With me it is about the genre. I don’t like folk music, whether it’s English, Irish or Scotish. Thus a people who set such music up as being part of their culture aren’t going to appeal to me.
Now you may argue that there is much more to Irish culture, and I’m sure that there is, but go anywhere in the world to the local Irish club or whatever they call it, and it will feature trad Irish folk music as a large part of their culture. It does nothing for me.
‘So, in an ironic sense, it was the friend who adopted the “one country, one culture” reasoning that you proclaim to hate so much, and not Resolve.’
Not at all. ‘The Irish’ set trad Irish folk music up as being Irish music, not folks like me. To the point that when people think of Irish culture they think of trad Irish folk music, Irish dancing, gaelic sports etc.
‘Likewise, the friend’s reasoning is ridiculous, as his reason for being uncomfortable with the notion of a UI centres around a perceived cultural gap that doesn’t exist.’
Does it?
‘The trad music he objected to (on grounds of its perceived Irishness) actually originated in England!’
Again, you have it backwards.
‘but I have been reading your comments. Some have shocked me.’
Which ones in particular? You need to get out more.
‘ROI – U2, Corrs, Cranberries, Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher, In Tua Nua, Clannad, Pogues, Sinead O’Conner, Hothouse Flowers, Boomtown Rats, Aslan.’
McGrath:
The Pogues are (mostly) English.
Harpo
I suppose that, on the Last Night of the Proms, when ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ is played it is not supposed to signify “Britishness”??? Come on… music is ALWAYS central to culture. For example, the American tradition of folk music ala Woody Guthrie and, later, Bob Dylan… this is pure Americana… but that does not necessarily preclude Jazz or Rock being seen to be “also American”. Around the world, when you go into an Irish bar (and inevitably hear Irish trad music) that is because it is the most popular cultural expression of Irish musical culture. In the same way, Black America is only a small percentage of the total population. Does this mean that Hip Hop/Rap is not associated with modern American culture??? Like I said, come on…
Harpo:
In relation to your misunderstanding of Resolve’s post, he said:
“When I suggest that he is as Irish as I am, he usually responds by saying that he feels no connection with Irish culture. when I enquire as to the specifics of this assertion, he usually comments on the “fiddly-dee” music, etc. I point out to him (something he always acknowledges, but never learns from) that English folk music is very similar to Irish trad music”…
Since you can read English, i need not walk you through a logical reading of this post…
To Robert Keogh:
The Roses and the mondays were on TOTP in 89 as they were both booming. Ripped the trousers of the nation and stuck its head in a bucket of cold water. A moment in pop history (along with Ian Browns Whistle Test “amateurs” outbreak – and 100 points to everyone who understands that)
“The Pogues are (mostly) English.”
What?
My two favorite Top of the Pops moments:
1982, Dexys Midnight Runners performed “Jackie Wilson Said” with a picture of darts player JOCKIE Wilson behind them.
1995, Guest presenter Chris Eubank told us that Suggs was at number six with Cecilia.
Worst moments:
Every non musician that has appeared on the show, take a bow Joe Dolce, St. Winifreds School Choir, Jive Bunny, Milli Vanilli, Stars on 45 and especially Chas and Dave and the sodding Tottenham Hotspur FA cup final squad!
I’ve come to doubt my sanity here but Harpo. please confirm – you weren’t being serious were you. I assumed you weren’t and I asssumed that it was obvious that you weren’t but as it appears fro the responses that it wasn;t obvious, maybe I am alsi wrong is supposing that it wasn’t serious.
If that makes any sence at all
‘Come on… music is ALWAYS central to culture.’
Christopher:
And to return to the original point, what if you don’t like trad Irish folk music?
The original point was that one poster (Resolve) told a unionist friend that the friend was Irish, and the friend responded that he didn’t feel Irish because of things like not liking trad Irish folk music.
And there’s your problem. If music IS a central part of a culture, and you don’t like that music, does that mean that you are not of that culture? Bsed on what we know about the most popular forms of Irish culture, the friend feels indifferent to them , and therefore not Irish.
The same goes for other things that are central to a culture. If a nation’s culture has certain central things that distinguish it from any other (or all others), and you don’t like them, then where does that leave you?
I think Resolve wants to convince his friend that the friend is Irish, but when the friend points out that he doesn’t feel culturally Irish, Resolve avoids the reality of that, and attacks on a different basis – the unrelated point that the folk music of the British Isles is related. But he ignores the point that the friend probably doesn’t like folk music at all.
It’s a daft argument anyway. Say the friend did like English folk music, but not Irish folk music. Wouldn’t that make him British (or at least of English ethnicity)? As opposed to Irish.
Resolve was making the odd point that trad Irish folk music had common themes with English and Scottish folk music, so that presumably someone who saw themselves as British wasn’t that far removed from someone who saw themselves as Irish.
What Resolve ignores though are 2 points:
1. British/English culture doesn’t have folk music as a central pillar of that culture.
2. Even if it did, what if a person doesn’t like folk music at all? Does that leave them cultureless?
I don’t understand Resolve’s original point at all.
‘Since you can read English, i need not walk you through a logical reading of this post…’
Christopher:
You would be better to go through a logical reading of it yourself. At no point is it mentioned that the friend objects to the music on the basis of its origin.
The friend is obviously like me. I don’t like trad Irish folk music. I don’t like any folk music. So the Irish stuff could come from Germany or Uganda, or Japan. I still don’t like the sound of it.
Why do you assume that the dislike of the music is based on his knowledge of where it comes from?
Are you saying that any unionist who doesn’t like trad Irish folk music only dislikes it because it is Irish?
‘What?’
circle:
Which part didn’t you understand?
‘I’ve come to doubt my sanity here but Harpo. please confirm – you weren’t being serious were you.’
bertie:
Serious regarding what?
The repressed ROI? Of course not. I was just playing on the picture that Miss Fitz presented, and her ‘only’ link to a non-showband world.
“There were no authoritarian restrictions on music or art in the ROI back in Miss Fitz’s time or any other time.”
*ahem*
The Committee On Evil Literature
Just saying…
harpo
Cheers mate!
*ahem*
The Committee On Evil Literature
Just saying…
Posted by Pete Baker on Jul 28, 2006 @ 09:47 PM
Ah, I see.
I suppose I meant authoritarian, communist style.
McGrath
ROI – U2, Corrs, Cranberries, Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher, In Tua Nua, Clannad, Pogues, Sinead O’Conner, Hothouse Flowers, Boomtown Rats, Aslan.”
NI – Van Morrison (has lived in SF over 30 years), SLF, Undertones.
So you’ve scored it thus:
ROI – 12 / NI – 3
That looks like a rather lopsided hometown decision. I asked a panel of independant UN observers to have a look at this and they amended your list as follows:
Thin Lizzy can also be counted as an NI band due to the involvement of Gary Moore.
ROI – 12 / NI – 4
You included In Tua Nua and Aslan who never appeared on TOTP. (I’m surprised you didn’t mention Cactus World News) – points deducted anyway.
ROI – 10 / NI – 4
You failed to mention NI band Silent Running who actually did appear on TOTP (even though they really wanted to be U2 and had even less impact than the two you mentioned)
ROI – 10 / NI – 5
You included one hit wonders The Hot House Flowers but ommitted NI one hit wonders band The Starjets
ROI – 10 / NI – 6
and NI one hit wonders D’Ream
ROI – 10 / NI – 7
The independant adjudicators gave you a point for one hit wonders The Frank and Walters
ROI – 11 / NI – 7
The independant adjudicators scored Dana who had several hits in the 70′s including a number 1 back when it meant something (she was a bit like a Derry Olivia Newtown John)
ROI – 11 / NI – 8
You failed to tackle the issue of Boyzone and Westlife, and their various offshoots, who together have made ROI responsible for some of the worst shite ever recorded.
ROI – 9 / NI – 8
You forgot to mention Phil Coulter, who probably wrote and produced more hits for more bands than anybody else during the 70′s, (and as a solo artiste sold more albums in both ROI and NI than anybody else)
ROI – 9 / NI – 9
Considering the relative populations of ROI and NI you ROI people need to get your musical act together if you seriously want to compete with your talented neighbours.
FAO Harpo…
I am getting more and more amazed by you. Are you for real?
Mr Eastwood – thank you very much! lol… hit the nail on the head. Now excuse me, Harpo.. I am going to “walk you through it”. Obviously, Christopher had too much faith in you… (bear in mind i am locked!)
“When I suggest that he is as Irish as I am, he usually responds by saying that he feels no connection with Irish culture. when I enquire as to the specifics of this assertion, he usually comments on the “fiddly-dee” music, etc. I point out to him (something he always acknowledges, but never learns from) that English folk music is very similar to Irish trad music”..
Read both the above quotation from my earlier post, and this explanation, together. My point was that, in mid debate, if the issue of culture arises he asserts that he is “not-Irish” simply because he cannot identify with Irish trad music… ask yourself, would a hip hop star think himself any less American (or at least potentially so) for not appreciating Woody Guthrie? No… exactly like Christopher said, “he” is the one with the narrow definition of “Irishness”, a narrow enough definition which makes it convenient for him to renounce any membership of it. You have shown by your later posts that you suffer under the same problem. Don’t worry, transference is a common and well-studies psychological problem. People criticise in others the exact things that are imperfect about themselves. I believe that you impute this notion on nationalist posters, Harpo.. namely that they have a narrow definition of Irishness, when in fact it is only you (plus a few hardline Republican nut-jobs) who view it in this way. His assertion that he does not view himself as Irish because he doesn’t like “Irish music” means that, at least in his eyes, a prerequisite for Irishness, or a defining characteristic of Irishness, is a love of trad music. To which I would say – get into the 21st century!!! Like England, Ireland has a thriving dance music scene, it has a rock culture, it has a pop culture, it has a variety of musical expressions. To associate “Irishness” with folk music, and hence to reject any affinity with that culture on the grounds of such a distaste for the particular genre, would be tantamount to a northern nationalist rejecting the Union because he didn’t like Elgar, or the Fairport Convention. He may well reject a cultural affinity, but it must be framed in logical argument. Up with any less I will not put!
Like I said, apologies for the articulation. I am cut lol… nevertheless, I hope you listen to my points, instead of transmogrifying them to suit your own purposes.
Shuggie – now that was a ham-fisted attempt at rigging the results if ever there was one – lets just take a closer look at that wee bit of jigger pokery.
Firstly, counting Thin Lizzy as a northern simply because the replacement guitarist came from Belfast is more than a stretch.
Then you deduct points from the southern result for bands not having appeared on TOTP and add some on for Phil Coulter – now when was he on TOTP?
On top of that you call the Hothouse Flowers one-hit wonders (I mean come on!!) and compare them to the Starjets (?), and D’ream. And on the subject of D’ream – you add points for them and for Dana and take off some from the south for Boyzone and Westlife – now wheres the justice in that?
Of course on the northern side you forgot the fabulous Ash, Snow Patrol, Therapy? (although they’re better forgotten anyway), and David Holmes (and a few others). But the Band listing for the south is far from exhaustive either (even the Dubliners were on TOTP).
Anyway, we northerners can be fairly proud of the popular music output, but theres no shame in coming in a distant second to the southerners.
BTW, any claims on the Beatles (Lennon, McCartney and Harrison) and the original Oasis Line up (Gallagher, McGuigan, Arthurs from Kircubben and McCarroll)?
I can’t believe no one has mentioned the mighty Clubsound or the Shankill roads finest punks Ruefrex.
Phil Lynott?
Phil-istines more like.
I’m not particularly proud of the pun in that last post.
TAFKABO
I can understand that
What about Lord Wogan’s floral dance – now would he be Irish, English or filed under “West Brit”?
and Barnbrack?
Actually we had some abysmal music in the north too – soo much for harpo’s enlightened modern world. Clubsound like? Blackthorn? Box Car Willie McCRea? Its a wonder we weren’t begging for the showbands.
Of course the local entertainment scene may have been just another front in the multi-facetted conflict. With shite music the IRA intended to ensure that the British Army had absolutely no fun of an evening, and would soon be begging to go home.
Anyway, back to TOTP. I see Jimmy Saville scuppered a live transmission of the last show as he wanted to watch some bloke toss his caber. Now then, now then!!!
“counting Thin Lizzy as a northern simply because the replacement guitarist came from Belfast is more than a stretch.”
Actually, Eric Bell, guitarist in the original Thin Lizzy line-up was (and still is) from Belfast.
I stand corrected – although one man does not a band make (unless of course its a one-man-band).
Like the DUP?
I wonder what music he would play?
and where would you get a harmonica to fit that mouth?
There is the old reggae classic by Dawn Penn – “No, no, no (you don’t love me)”
I wonder what music he would play?
A cover of Donny Osmonds the Twelfth of Never perhaps?
Theres an old french number “Orange, que tu m’arranges” or so – he could give that a belt too.
circles
“..On top of that you call the Hothouse Flowers one-hit wonders (I mean come on!!) and compare them to the Starjets (?)..”
OK the Hot House Flowers did TOTP and appeared on Eurovision (with the best song of that broadcast) but they were one hit wonders. Their one hit was excellent, but they achieved it in 1988 which no-one could argue was a classic year for pop music (in my opinion it was by far the shittiest year for chart music between 1956 and 2006)
The Starjets did TOTP they also appeared on Crackerjack. They were acknowledged as the “Bay City Rollers” of punk. Their one hit “War Stories”, even more catchy and uplifting than “Don’t Go” and they achieved it 1979 which was one of thee absoulutely superlative years for pop music.
( more info about them on this French website – http://punkmodpop.free.fr/starjets_pic.htm ),
You aren’t by any chance their manager trying to get a bit of reunion fever going are you Shuggie?
If you are, you’re doing a great jon – you’ve made the Starjets sound so incredible I’m bursting to hear them! “War Stories” – amazing title – approaches the embarassing pathos of Simple MInds utter crap Belfast Child, but turns it into a Boys Own adventure type of thing. Class!!
Can’t believe the Hothouse flowers only had one hit in the UK charts though. Say it aint so Shuggie!
I can’t believe this, a thread on showbands vs TOTP and only very few mentions of Horslips. SHocking, as they were (and kind of are again) the only Irish band that made Ireland bearable in the 1970s. Cross-border as well and popular all over (as well as shakin all over). Just watched Johnny Fean playing in Kerry last week and he is still a magnificent guitar player. The band is the only reason I started listening to Irish traditional music….
‘the only Irish band that made Ireland bearable in the 1970s’
Donnacha:
You see, there’s that exaggeration again. The same thing that Miss Fitz did at the start of this thread.
Was Ireland really that unbearable? Or are you all just engaging in hyperbole?
And Horslips were the ONLY Irish band that made it bearable? Thin Lizzy didn’t count? None of the punk/new wave groups?
I find it odd that the horribleness of 1970s Ireland is brought up again.
What’s with including Phil Lynott as Irish?
The man was born in England, just as Shane McGowan (Mr. Pogue) was.
Now they may have been of Irish ethnicity, but both men were born in England.
And I see the old cliches are being trotted out about members of the Beatles and Oasis, and their Irish ethnicity.
Isn’t one of the contradictory nationalist rules on Slugger that if you are born on the island of Ireland you are Irish?
If you are born in England, you must then be English.
Or is this one of those cases where your ethnicity (or where you eventually move to)trumps where you were born?
The Irish seem to do that a lot, in order to claim people.
And while we are at it, half of U2 were born outside the island of Ireland. Where were Adam Clayton and Dave ‘The Edge’ Evans born? Well bugger me Rex – both were born in England.
This is all starting to sound like the Jack Charlton era ROI soccer team. You may want to revisit that list of Irish pop and rock stars and start all over again.
Okay Harpo, for the pedantic among you. Horslips was the only band that relieved the grim 70s FOR ME. Okay? Not tarring everyone with my own brush, I wouldn’t dream of suggesting such a thing. ANd no, Lizzy didn’t do it for me because Horslips were the only rock band bogmen in the back blocks like me could actually see down at the local dancehall. FFS they broke out of Monasterevin! I don’t remember SLF playing the Dun Mhuire or the Castle Ballroom, much as I would have loved it….
Oh and an honourable mention to Rory Gallagher as well for coming down the country to us.
Harpo
“What’s with including Phil Lynott as Irish?”
Hadn’t you heard of the diaspora? UIt’s a big world outside NI harpo.
Watched the last episode last night and only the BBC could do such an Orwellian rewriting of history as to exclude any punk/new wave act from the history, disco was similarly ignored on their nostalgia fest, while you could almost be forgiven for thinking that heavy metal never happened if you watched the programme. That was one of TOTPs problems – it was dominated by middle aged men playing the sort of safe stuff that they thought kids should be listening too. More risque acts were often banned or simply ignored. People have long since stopped caring whats number 1 now so a chart programme is totally anachronistic.
‘That was one of TOTPs problems – it was dominated by middle aged men playing the sort of safe stuff that they thought kids should be listening too.’
Valenciano:
Nonsense. They played a selection of whatever was in the charts. And since the British charts were based on sales that means they were playing whatever people were actually buying. Now that mans what all people were buying, and not just kids, but’s that the way it was.
It was called Top Of The Pops because it featured what was at the top of the pop charts.
The BBC did a good job of catering for people who wanted to hear stuff that wasn’t on the charts via shows like John Peel’s radio show or the Friday rock show. Misty In Roots, Crass and Diamond Head were never going to sell enough to make it to the pop charts, but those shows meant that they still got coverage.
TOTP may have featured Peters and Lee, Paper Lace, the Bee Gees and Olivia Newton John but that’s because they were popular – they sold records. TOTP never pretended to be anything that it wasn’t.
Some of you have made valiant efforts to turn this relatively innocent and fun thread into some kind of treatise on the dark side of the ROI in the 70′s.
I just want to do a little rebuttal here, and also to tell some of you to seriously lighten up.
I was never a typical teenager to start, and was involved in politics from the age of 15. Therefore, both the thread and the references therein were pretty limited to my experience. I went to the social in the Macra, latterly because I fancied the son of the local TD and could accidentally on purpose meet him there.
There was no censorship of music, there was radio and LP’s and gigs and Open Air concerts like Macroom in the 70′s. There was freedom of expression for those whose souls and minds required it.
For a nerdy kid like me, music was not the core importance in my life. I would have and still would prefer books. However, I did watch TOTP religiously, and like I said, for me and others like me it really was a bit of a link to a different musical experience than the one we were accustomed to. I left home at 16, so I didnt really get to spend all my formative years there, although I must admit I used to go to the National Ballroom in Dublin (I think), with all the other decent culshies.
OK, do what you will with what I’ve said, but Lord Lads, lighten up. My growing up experiences shouldnt give rise to all sorts of ‘evil south’ legends. I’m not sure my experience was global.
That is one of the reasons the thread isnt Miss Fitz on behalf of the ROI, it’s just Miss Fitz, and its just my experience.
My conscience is clear – On this thread I have been lightness itself!
Harpo, not true, in their heyday the Sex Pistols weren’t invited to play at all, “God save the Queen” was never even awarded the tokenistic brush off of being played over the credits at the end of the programme despite reaching number two. To add to that list you can add relatively innocuous songs like “My ding a ling”, Peaches by “The Stranglers”, “Winkers song” as well as tracks by groups like the Prodigy, NWA, Frankie Goes to Hollywood etc etc which were banned despite being top 10 hits because they offended some sort of outdated morality held by the presenters.
Valenciano,
The Pistols performed – or at any rate mimed to – Pretty Vacant on TOTP.
…or maybe that was a promo-video.